Players and New Characters

[Silva Stormrage]

Hello, well another player died in today's session. The player just shrugged it off saying that its not a big deal since his next character will be the exact same thing. Now I want death is supposed to mean something, and it doesn't mean anything if you just play the exact same character. I didn't let him play the same character and he just acted upset and didn't pay much attention the rest of the game.

Now is that normal for pc's to play the exact same character once their previous one dies?

[Salanmander]

I've never seen that. Normally if people want to play the same character, they'd try to find some sort of resurrection magic.

[Greenish]

Well, if players see their characters as "X the Race Class", just an avatar of the player, making a clone comes up cheaper than resurrecting the dead one.

If they see their characters as, well, characters, they probably either make a new one or cough up the money for resurrection.

Depends on the playstyle, really.

[Moginheden]

creating a clone of the character doesn't work. There are costs associated with bringing back the dead that no one would ever pay if they could just pick up an identical clone.

Having said that it is common to allow the player to play an almost identical character. It can be a big pain when your rogue dies and the party suddenly doesn't have a trapmonkey. The rules I've heard recommended are any new players start at the same level as the rest of the party with an equal amount of gear, any deaths are replaced by a character who's about 90% as good as the rest of the party, (either gear or level behind, it's rare to be both.) But the replacement character is expected to make a few different itemization/feat/skill choices than the previous one, (although it might be minor.)

This system makes people not want to die, (because the character should be very much against dieing so we need a reason for the player to care.) Unfortunately it also means the player who died is weaker and more likely to die again. This second part I still haven't figured out how to get past, (XP bonuses will catch them up over time... but it takes a long while.)

[Ernir]

As a DM, I wouldn't care much if the new character was at least to some degree mechanically similar (especially if it's really general, like "can heal" or "can find traps"), but carbon copies of personalities? Boo.

I don't like fiddling with what concepts players play, so I don't think I'd ban it, but damn, I'd reserve the right to laugh at him and call him lame before letting Joe the Wizard MkII into the game. :smalltongue:
(If you're more diplomatic than I am, you might try suggesting that everyone involved is likely to have more fun if he tried something new.)

[AslanCross]

As a DM, I wouldn't care much if the new character was at least to some degree mechanically similar (especially if it's really general, like "can heal" or "can find traps"), but carbon copies of personalities? Boo.

I don't like fiddling with what concepts players play, so I don't think I'd ban it, but damn, I'd reserve the right to laugh at him and call him lame before letting Joe the Wizard MkII into the game. :smalltongue:
(If you're more diplomatic than I am, you might try suggesting that everyone involved is likely to have more fun if he tried something new.)

I completely agree. He can play whatever he wants, sure, but it's incredibly boring. I'd ask him why he's so keen on being...just another carbon copy. It reminds me too much of The Gamers. The pile of dead bards gives cover (and maybe eventually improved cover).

[Silva Stormrage]

K thank you for the replies. I told him that death is supposed to mean something and if he plays the exact same character with the exact same gear it wouldn't mean anything.

Also he isn't really coping the personalty because, his character doesn't have really a personality. He actually didn't remember his character's name when a new NPC asked for it. Most players in my group don't role play really at all so its not uncommon really.

He really, didn't take that all that well, he said there wasn't any hard feelings but said he didn't have time to make another character so I am now stuck making a new character for him.

[DeltaEmil]

Also he isn't really coping the personalty because, his character doesn't have really a personality. He actually didn't remember his character's name when a new NPC asked for it. Most players in my group don't role play really at all so its not uncommon really.That's the problem. Nobody roleplays, and the characters are absolutely bland and faceless gaming avatars of the people at your gaming table.

In that light, as long as nobody really shows interest in their characters as individuals with their own history, dreams and desires, being disallowed to create mechanical clones is really just bothersome. To make sure that death is taken seriously, you'd first need to make sure that people don't want their characters to die.

And if you don't create enough opportunities for endearing roleplaying that suit the taste of your players, it's debatable that this attitude is going to change any time...

[DukeofDellot]

Stand behind the Wall of Dead Bards!

But seriously, if you want death to be an issue... and your group... doesn't... roleplay... give some sort of mechanical effect.

Such as the dreaded "Your new character is one level behind your last". Beyond that there's the fact that the other players would have his old items and become that much richer, but now he's further behind in the loot... assuming you're being generous with such.

Back when I was running GURPS, forgetting your character's name was an automatic loss of your Roleplaying experience point for the session, and dying usually set you back around twenty-five points (if you could come up with a reason for your character to... not die... such as the finishing blow just knocked you out... now you have amnesia or only one arm and a vow of vengeance or whatever [-25] disavantage(s) they wanted)... otherwise you'd start from scratch about 25 points lower than your current total, which could be looked at as roughly a level below. The player had to pitch their "cheat death" or new character before I gave them the point total, and a too similar character decreased the point total further.

[JonestheSpy]

I think this situation requires switching to Paranoia. Seriously, it seems perfect for the OP's group. You can get plenty of roleplaying milage out of a few key parts of your character that are assigned to you - mutant power, secret society, and job department - so the players' lack of creativity will be less of an issue. And when you die, you're actually replaced by a clone.

And of course as GM, you now get plenty of opportunity for revenge for any annoyance you might have experienced in previous games...

[JeminiZero]

Maybe there's a strong backstory reason why all his characters are Cabon Copies of one another.

Maybe he's a Warforged, Series 800 Model 101, with standardized build, gear, and personality. So that despite his obvious destruction in the previous movie game, he returns as good as new for for the next sequel session. :smallbiggrin:

[Silva Stormrage]

Maybe there's a strong backstory reason why all his characters are Cabon Copies of one another.

Maybe he's a Warforged, Series 800 Model 101, with standardized build, gear, and personality. So that despite his obvious destruction in the previous movie game, he returns as good as new for for the next sequel session. :smallbiggrin:

That actually seems humerous and would be funny to implement if I ever play a warforged :smallbiggrin:.

And it seems I miscommunicated. The party is split on wether or not role play is good, we have 2 other people + me liking role play and 2 people that don't really care, one of which is the player who died, so I'm not sure how to balance it.

I will see what he thinks about the level penalties though. That might be a good compromise. Also he probably would like to use a resurrection or some kind of resurrection magic but he was killed by a necromancer inside the necromancer's fortress with no allies around him, long story.

[Gnome Alone]

I completely agree. He can play whatever he wants, sure, but it's incredibly boring. I'd ask him why he's so keen on being...just another carbon copy. It reminds me too much of The Gamers. The pile of dead bards gives cover (and maybe eventually improved cover).

Ha, it's more like the first The Gamers, where the wizard dies and is shortly replaced by an exact duplicate.

DM: Guys, please! I want you to roleplay this. Remember you've never met this guy before, the last guys you met tried to kill you, and you're standing in the ruins of an evil, cursed castle. Just act appropriately.

Magellan: Hello, I'm Magellan, a traveling mage. I notice your group has no wizard.

Rogar the Barbarian: You seem trustworthy. Would you care to join us in our noble quest?

Magellan: Yes. Yes I would.

[Kaww]

Also he isn't really coping the personalty because, his character doesn't have really a personality. He actually didn't remember his character's name when a new NPC asked for it. Most players in my group don't role play really at all so its not uncommon really.


Well, that is sad. Even on the first session my players know their character names... Then again, I guess, whatever floats your boat.

On the subject - my players mostly make characters with personalities similar to their own. So roleplay isn't an issue. As for mechanical details I enforce the rule: if you want a new char it has to be NEW. This means no similar classes. I do this since rez is easily obtainable at my table.

[Jornophelanthas]

I will see what he thinks about the level penalties though. That might be a good compromise. Also he probably would like to use a resurrection or some kind of resurrection magic but he was killed by a necromancer inside the necromancer's fortress with no allies around him, long story.

In my opinion, you shouldn't negotiate with your players on this, but rather just lay down the law. You are the DM after all, and the final arbiter of what happens in-game.

This does not mean you should be an iron-fisted tyrant, but if you meekly ask your player "if perhaps it would be okay if maybe he could" start a level behind, the player may assume he is in a position of power and start to bargain. This is a bad thing, because it sets a precedent that players can bargain with you whenever anything happens to their characters that they don't like, and makes them expect that you, the DM, will always bail them out of any situation if they only whine loudly enough.

(e.g. "But I don't WANT to fight another mob of stupid orcs! They're boring! Can't they just drop their treasure and run away or something?")

In short, don't undermine your authority as DM. Instead, listen to your players and provide a fair ruling. And it helps if you invent a rule for what happens whenever a player character dies, so you can refer to it for all future PC deaths.

[DeltaEmil]

In the end, what is your goal? Do you want this player to play with you at the gaming table or not?

If yes, first make sure that he wants his character to live, either by incorporating his character fully in the story or changing the campaign somewhat to his input if possible.

If not, then apply level penalties and such, which will only annoy him, and then, after a while, he'll stop showing up and will play a video-game or spend his time doing something more productive elsewhere.

Everybody is then happy.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Sometimes when my character dies I randomly generate a race for my new character (he might get ressurected if he hasn't threatened to kill them TOO many times and we have the cash). I don't randomly generate class though since that could leave the party crippled. And ALWAYS I make sure to have a new 3 sentence backstory and a new personality. This seems to work very well.

And sometimes we got reincarnations since they were cheaper and a high level druid was available. We had a human monk in a top hat (of disguise) who was actually a lizardfolk (actually to our advantage with all the stat bonuses and the claw damage increasing unarmed strike) and a kobald wizard formerly gnome wizard formerly kobald wizard formerly halfling wizard.

[KillianHawkeye]

If somebody brought an exact duplicate of their previous character to my game, that would just move them to the top of the list for the next PC to get killed. :smallamused:

[Darrin]

K thank you for the replies. I told him that death is supposed to mean something and if he plays the exact same character with the exact same gear it wouldn't mean anything.

Also he isn't really coping the personalty because, his character doesn't have really a personality. He actually didn't remember his character's name when a new NPC asked for it. Most players in my group don't role play really at all so its not uncommon really.

He really, didn't take that all that well, he said there wasn't any hard feelings but said he didn't have time to make another character so I am now stuck making a new character for him.

It sounds like the player may be telling you some things:

1) He really likes playing a particular archetype, and he's unwilling to consider playing anything else. He may want something that chops things in two with a big sword, or he likes a sneaky-type that stabs things in the back. He may be thinking of it only in terms of what combat style he likes. Personality, back-story, etc. aren't all that important. If X character dies, he'll just make a slightly different X, because that's what he really enjoys playing.

2) More importantly, he may be trying to tell you what his expectations are and what he wants to get out of the game. He may really, really enjoy combat, and that's really all he's bellying up to the table for. Personality-stuff, roleplay, etc. he may tolerate slightly, but that's not what he wants out of the game.

Please note that in either case, he's not playing the game "wrong", and he'll likely get defensive or confrontational if you approach him that way. There are many, many groups that play that way and have loads of fun. The root problem is if the other players/DM have different expectations, and want to get different things out of the game, then you've got issues. If he feels his needs aren't being met and the rest of the group doesn't want to go along with his play style, then he'll either tune out or decide to retaliate.

Your best strategy is to talk to him personally or the group as a whole and get some ideas about what style of play the players prefer. Your disgruntled player needs to hear two things:

1) You will accomodate his particular needs (more combat) if he's willing to work with the rest of the group to meet their needs (develop some personality/backstory, roleplay more, etc.)

2) It's a group activity. If the majority of the group prefers a different style of play, then that's going to trump one player's individual preferences. If he wants to say in the group, he needs to be aware that what the other players want is also important. If he wants to try something different, then his best strategy is to convince the group to go along, rather than retaliate against the DM or specific players.

[Moginheden]

(e.g. "But I don't WANT to fight another mob of stupid orcs! They're boring! Can't they just drop their treasure and run away or something?")

As DM you need to listen to your players and make sure the game is fun. If a player said this to me I'd reply with something like "one of the orcs points behind you and shouts something in orcish. All of them run away screaming, dropping their weapons to run faster. Do you turn around? *evil grin*" When the players do turn around they see a pit fiend or a dragon or something. This way you can note what your players like and don't like at the same time as making them realize they can't get free loot by complaining.

The same thing applies to the death issue. Try to figure out what would be fun for the group and use that. You don't want to give up your power as the DM, but you do want to make sure the group is having fun. If people will stop playing if you force them to make a new kind of character then listen, but don't just give in.

[nedz]

I had something similar.
A Players Monk died at level 6.
He wanted to explore playing a monk, so he created a new level 6 Monk.

My houserules do mitigate this a little.
I choose to misread the rules on Raise Dead:
If your character dies you lose 1000 xp the first time, 2000 xp the second time. 3000 xp the third time, ...
Basically I read the character XP level table bottom up rather than top down.

If your character dies and you end up making a new one, then the same sequence applies.

So Fred the Elf dies and is raised: Fred loses 1000 xp
Fred the Elf dies again and is raised: Fred loses 2000 xp
Fred the Elf dies and Bill the Halfling joins the party: Bill starts with 3000 xp less than Fred had when he snuffed it.
(Assuming they belong to the same player)

[Gamer Girl]

Now is that normal for pc's to play the exact same character once their previous one dies?

Very, very normal. This is about 50% of all gamers.

This type of person picks a race or class that they like, and simply sticks with it. They like the race/class, so why not. They don't like most of the other races/classes, so there is no point in playing them.

Of course, each character is a bit different..especially role-playing wise.

And if someone wants to be the same character again, then just let them. It does not matter, right?

[Godskook]

Some people simply don't roleplay well, and instead, 'pretend' to roleplay themselves, with the primary difference being the powers their character gets.

[bloodtide]

Most games have had a player like this at some point. It's common.


The classic is the player makes a character (Tork the half orc barbarian). and when that character dies, they simply make Tork II, and then Tork III, and Tork VI and on and on.

Or they simply change the last part. So Leif the Swift, becomes Leif the Lucky, and Leif the Brave and Leif the dark.

[Moginheden]

Most games have had a player like this at some point. It's common.


The classic is the player makes a character (Tork the half orc barbarian). and when that character dies, they simply make Tork II, and then Tork III, and Tork VI and on and on.

Or they simply change the last part. So Leif the Swift, becomes Leif the Lucky, and Leif the Brave and Leif the dark.

The second one is acceptable in my mind, the first isn't. If you want to play the same race/class go right ahead, but you had better change some feats and equipment, (even if only slightly.) Then again I'm a big fan of reincarnation, if only it didn't have the negative level penalty. (although that penalty is there to avoid things like this: http://www.heroesoflesserearth.com/2006/08/hole_comic_2006-08-29gif/ )

[Hanuman]

Duping char sheets turns DnD into a soap.

[Choco]

I'm sorry to say this, but from the sound of it your players want to play a roll-playing game. In this case, the only way you can make death matter to them is to force all "new" characters to be introduced at 1 level lower than their former characters. Yeah it wont stop them from de-leveling their current characters should they die, but it WILL make them be more careful.

[DeltaEmil]

I'm sorry to say this, but from the sound of it your players want to play a roll-playing game. In this case, the only way you can make death matter to them is to force all "new" characters to be introduced at 1 level lower than their former characters. Yeah it wont stop them from de-leveling their current characters should they die, but it WILL make them be more careful.Or just stop appearing to that gaming table.

Well, that is one way to deal with this problem for sure...

[Gryndle]

Or as another poster pointed out, maybe his player simply is only interested in playing a specific character type at this time.

As a DM, if my players only ever played the same thing over and over, I'm sure that would get annoying.

However, as a Player, I'd get real annoyed, real quick, if a DM starting telling me what I could and couldn't play beyond the limits set by the campaign world.

Back on point, if it isn't disrupting the game, or ruinning someone else's fun, let the player play what he can enjoy.

[KillianHawkeye]

The classic is the player makes a character (Tork the half orc barbarian). and when that character dies, they simply make Tork II, and then Tork III, and Tork VI and on and on.

I'm going to assume that, rather than being a typo, Tork the Fourth just doesn't understand the sequence of roman numerals. :smallbiggrin:

[Hanuman]

I'm sorry to say this, but from the sound of it your players want to play a roll-playing game. In this case, the only way you can make death matter to them is to force all "new" characters to be introduced at 1 level lower than their former characters. Yeah it wont stop them from de-leveling their current characters should they die, but it WILL make them be more careful.
I'm a fan of reward instead of punishment.

The rules for my table are that players gain extra goodies from leveling up the old fashioned way, think of it as something like VoP where you can take VoP at level 10, you just wont gain the exalted feats as if you started at 1.

Randomly give out gifts upon level up, everyone is happy, soft power rocks.

[dragonfan6490]

I'm going to assume that, rather than being a typo, Tork the Fourth just doesn't understand the sequence of roman numerals. :smallbiggrin:

My assumption is that they are all brothers and Tork the Fourth and Fifth weren't able to be contacted to replace Tork the Third, so the party called on Tork the Sixth instead. :smallbiggrin:

[Forged Fury]

Also he probably would like to use a resurrection or some kind of resurrection magic but he was killed by a necromancer inside the necromancer's fortress with no allies around him, long story.
Did you read what you just wrote? This is GOLD!!! Killed by a necromancer. What do necromancer's do? They make undead. Have the necromancer turn the dead character into a wight and let the character join the DM behind the screen when he is sent by the necromancer to kill the rest of the party. Hopefully they'll capture him and cast a Reincarnate on him. Character comes back and everyone is probably happy.