I'm seeing a pattern with the gates

[Emo Samurai]

All the gates that we've seen so far have been destroyed by the logic of all of their guardians' philosophies.

SOD spoiler:

Liriel's gate was broken in half because it was held up by two animated trees instead of two normal trees. If they were just normal trees, they could never have pulled it apart.

Dorukon's gate comes apart because it had a high-magical self-destruct mechanism built into it for no really good reason. I'm also wondering why Xykon and Redcloak didn't just use their evil gate-moving magic when they were just sitting there for like 25 years.

Soon's gate comes apart because Miko Miyazaki valued a selective but consistent interpretation of the Code over rational thought, and the leadership of the Sapphire Guard failed to successfully meld wisdom with honor. Shojo deliberately kept pragmatism and virtue separate and ostracized the most skilled and powerful (and devoted) amongst their number. Not very wise no matter what her personality flaws are.

Maybe Girard's gate will fall apart because he hid it so well they destroy it by accident.

[Kish]

I'm also wondering why Xykon and Redcloak didn't just use their evil gate-moving magic when they were just sitting there for like 25 years.
Because they couldn't get through the ward Dorukan put over his Gate, remember? Xykon tried to get Elan to open it by touching it, and it blew Xykon apart when he touched it instead?

[Emo Samurai]

Soooo... why didn't Redcloak touch it? Or why didn't they just capture some good guy and force him/her to touch it?

[Goosefarble]

Also:

They totally haven't been there 25 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).

[Emo Samurai]

Don't be pedantic.

[Dr.Epic]

All the gates that we've seen so far have been destroyed by the logic of all of their guardians' philosophies.

SOD spoiler:

Liriel's gate was broken in half because it was held up by two animated trees instead of two normal trees. If they were just normal trees, they could never have pulled it apart.

I think the fire would have destroyed the trees and thus the Gate regardless.


Dorukon's gate comes apart because it had a high-magical self-destruct mechanism built into it for no really good reason. I'm also wondering why Xykon and Redcloak didn't just use their evil gate-moving magic when they were just sitting there for like 25 years.

A selfdestruct mechanism to prevent the Gate from falling into wrong hands isn't no good reason. And Red Cloak and Xykon couldn't move the Gate because it required someone of a good alignment to do that.

[Emo Samurai]

I think the fire would have destroyed the trees and thus the Gate regardless.

Still, the fact that those ents were so undisciplined in spite of their very important role is probably there to make a point.


A selfdestruct mechanism to prevent the Gate from falling into wrong hands isn't no good reason.

I still really have a hard time justifying it. If Dorukon's around, then it seems like there would be idiot-proof ways to accomplish the exact same task. Also, he would have been more than capable of defending it from Xykon if he hadn't gotten emotional and broken cover like he did. And if he wasn't around, the bad guy obviously wouldn't activate it of his own free will. The point is, the gate was destroyed by something its original guardian set in place.



And Red Cloak and Xykon couldn't move the Gate because it required someone of a good alignment to do that.

So again, why didn't they just capture someone good and make them open the ward?

[Kish]

Soooo... why didn't Redcloak touch it?

Lack of suicidal tendencies?

Or why didn't they just capture some good guy and force him/her to touch it?
That's pretty close to what they did try, after Nale finally identified for Xykon what the factor was that was causing all the goblins he sent into the gate to die, remember?

[Emo Samurai]

They could pick some good people who aren't powerful adventurers. I mean, it's a pretty big country.

[Kish]

They did pick some good people who weren't powerful adventurers. Xykon picked a laughable group of low-level buffoons who were barely able to defeat Nale and then forgot their cleric, in fact.

Beyond that, the difference between "last year" and "25 years" is far from pedantic here. Xykon figured out the ward and picked the Order to open it within the space of about a day. Why are you asking people on the board to recap the plot of the first 110-or-so comics for you, now?

[Dr.Epic]

Still, the fact that those ents were so undisciplined in spite of their very important role is probably there to make a point.

What are these ents you speak off? Do they exist with balrogs and totally not balors?

I don't think a charred tree could hold up a Gate designed to stop a god killing abomination.


I still really have a hard time justifying it.

Destroying the most powerful thing so it doesn't fall into the hands of evil isn't justifying enough? Even O-Chul was about to destroy a Gate so having a plan b of destroying the Gate isn't that bizarre.


So again, why didn't they just capture someone good and make them open the ward?

They didn't know about the whole "pure of heart" thing until Nale told the Order about it.

[JoeSkull]

They could pick some good people who aren't powerful adventurers. I mean, it's a pretty big country.

they found out about the good aligned part WHILE the OotS was on their way to kill him...

Which they pretty much succeeded at.

[Emo Samurai]

Beyond that, the difference between "last year" and "25 years" is far from pedantic here. Xykon figured out the ward and picked the Order to open it within the space of about a day.

I thought they were there for a lot longer. Don't know why.


Destroying the most powerful thing so it doesn't fall into the hands of evil isn't justifying enough? Even O-Chul was about to destroy a Gate so having a plan b of destroying the Gate isn't that bizarre.

I'm not really focusing THAT much on the practical logic, I'm focusing more on the story logic. Regardless of how much sense any given measure makes, the point is that the last blow is always given by something that the guardian put in place, whether this is a magical failsafe, some animated tree guardians, or a moral code that people use to substitute for reason and flexibility.

[Zanaril]

They did pick some good people who weren't powerful adventurers. Xykon picked a laughable group of low-level buffoons who were barely able to defeat Nale and then forgot their cleric, in fact.

He should have picked some people who weren't protagonists.

[Marillion]

You know, I hadn't looked at it like that. Hmm.

Regarding Lirian's Gate, if the trees had been regular trees (or at least, not panicked) Redcloak or Lirian would have been able to conjure water to douse the fire, and then cast...Mending? A Cure spell? Whichever would have been appropriate to restore the guardians to health without destroying the gate.

If we're going with this theory, I'd say that Girard's gate will be destroyed not because he hid it too well, but because of his willingness to lie, omit, and otherwise deceive. Perhaps if the order meets him and he isn't hostile, he will neglect to tell them about something important about the gate, because just in case, and it will come back and bite him in the stick.

[Morquard]

I'm not really focusing THAT much on the practical logic, I'm focusing more on the story logic. Regardless of how much sense any given measure makes, the point is that the last blow is always given by something that the guardian put in place, whether this is a magical failsafe, some animated tree guardians, or a moral code that people use to substitute for reason and flexibility.
Read the FAQ about story logic...
If Xykon had done what you had said, the Dark One would have slaughtered /subjugated the gods by strip #90, by #95 the goblins had taken over the world, and by #96 the comic would have ended.

I much rather have it like it is.

Also my theory is that the Redmountain gate is still intact, the self destruct just collapsed the castle on it, and everyone thinks it's destroyed. Dorukan even faked the monitors that got sent to Azure City, that's why the paladins thought the gate was gone, and send Miko.

[Zevox]

Dorukon's gate comes apart because it had a high-magical self-destruct mechanism built into it for no really good reason.
Being able to quickly and easily prevent it from falling into the wrong hands is "no good reason?"


I'm also wondering why Xykon and Redcloak didn't just use their evil gate-moving magic when they were just sitting there for like 25 years.
Six months, and as mentioned, because of Dorukon's ward.

Zevox

[factotum]

If we're going with this theory, I'd say that Girard's gate will be destroyed not because he hid it too well, but because of his willingness to lie, omit, and otherwise deceive. Perhaps if the order meets him and he isn't hostile, he will neglect to tell them about something important about the gate, because just in case, and it will come back and bite him in the stick.

I think it's more likely the big lie he's already used--e.g. lying to Soon about the gate's location--will be what trips Girard up, because when Xykon comes a-knockin' he won't have any warning or backup.

[Felixc-91]

I think it's more likely the big lie he's already used--e.g. lying to Soon about the gate's location--will be what trips Girard up, because when Xykon comes a-knockin' he won't have any warning or backup.ummm, no. we know that he has back up, for sure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html). it also implies that SOMEONE, probably girard, knows that Zykon is coming.

[Thanatosia]

This thread did make me think of a pretty huge gaping plothole tho, consider:

1) Durukon deliberately engineered a self-destruct rune to prevent his gate from falling into the wrong hands.

2) Durukon was confronted by someone sieging his castle who was clearly by any diffinition 'the wrong hands', and who clearly was after the gate specificially - and had already overcome and slain his lover and the keeper of another gate.

So the question remains, why build the rune if he did not use it. It was clearly fully functional. Even if he thought he would suceed in his duel with Xykon, he clearly had servants and beings working for him still in the dungeon who could tell that he lost the duel. Why did nothing activate the self destruct in the weeks it took Xykon to move in and take over the Dungeon?

[Zevox]

So the question remains, why build the rune if he did not use it. It was clearly fully functional. Even if he thought he would suceed in his duel with Xykon, he clearly had servants and beings working for him still in the dungeon who could tell that he lost the duel. Why did nothing activate the self destruct in the weeks it took Xykon to move in and take over the Dungeon?
Given what Celia said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0071.html), it doesn't seem as though he explained much to whatever servants he had, and they may well not have been aware of what he was up to or his defeat when Xykon came along. Slightly paranoid perhaps?

Alternatively, Xykon and friends may have managed to kill any servants he had which were in the know about the gate before they could do it.

Or perhaps he thought Xykon was looking to do just that - destroy the Gate, not use it. Then using the self-destruct would seem pointless to him. (I'd check my copy of SoD to see if he indicates any knowledge of Xykon's exact goal, but I loaned it to a friend recently.)

(Incidentally, where do you get that it took Xykon weeks to move in? Celia doesn't mention it either there or when she later explains Cloister, and SoD ended just before that, so I'm not sure where you'd have gotten that from.)

Zevox

[KingFlameHawk]

This thread did make me think of a pretty huge gaping plothole tho, consider:

1) Durukon deliberately engineered a self-destruct rune to prevent his gate from falling into the wrong hands.

2) Durukon was confronted by someone sieging his castle who was clearly by any diffinition 'the wrong hands', and who clearly was after the gate specificially - and had already overcome and slain his lover and the keeper of another gate.

So the question remains, why build the rune if he did not use it. It was clearly fully functional. Even if he thought he would suceed in his duel with Xykon, he clearly had servants and beings working for him still in the dungeon who could tell that he lost the duel. Why did nothing activate the self destruct in the weeks it took Xykon to move in and take over the Dungeon?

As Celia mentioned in one strip (71) after Dorukan died she still had six months of a year long contract to finish and she mostly just made personal calls and swiped office supplies. Soon and Lirian had large groups of followers who helped to defend the gates but all we saw of Durokan's servants were three young outsiders probably on the same contract as Celia. Hell they probably didn't even know about the gate or at least didn't care enough to do anything. she also states that she knew he "disappeared" but didn't know Xykon did it indicating he didn't tell them about his siege either.

Also Durokan didn't think he would win, he knew he would as a stupid sorceror could never match a wizard's mastery of the arcane.

[KingFlameHawk]

(Incidentally, where do you get that it took Xykon weeks to move in? Celia doesn't mention it either there or when she later explains Cloister, and SoD ended just before that, so I'm not sure where you'd have gotten that from.)

Zevox

In 71 she said Durokan died 6 months ago and that Xykon moved in a "few" months ago indicating a span of at least a few months between.

[Marillion]

Or perhaps he thought Xykon was looking to do just that - destroy the Gate, not use it. Then using the self-destruct would seem pointless to him. (I'd check my copy of SoD to see if he indicates any knowledge of Xykon's exact goal, but I loaned it to a friend recently.)


I just checked, and the only interactions he has with Xykon are regarding Lirian, and insulting Xykon for being a sorcerer. However, since Lirians' gate was destroyed and not perverted, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that that was the goal with Dorukans' gate as well.

Perhaps the reason he didn't activate the self-destruct rune was because of his arrogance and assurance in the might of his magic, particularly regarding Xykon. After all, there's no way a simple sorcerer could ever defeat a true wizard.

[Felixc-91]

I just checked, and the only interactions he has with Xykon are regarding Lirian, and insulting Xykon for being a sorcerer. However, since Lirians' gate was destroyed and not perverted, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that that was the goal with Dorukans' gate as well.

i support this view, just did the same check my self. there is no evidence that Dorukan knew any thing about The Plan.

[AyeGill]

i support this view, just did the same check my self. there is no evidence that Dorukan knew any thing about The Plan.

agreed, maybe he had a magic system in place around lirian's gate like the one there was between his gate and the sapphire guard. That would make sense, and maybe give dorukan the idea that Xykon was only out to destroy the gates and release the snarl in a mad crazy insane superpowered magician plot. And if that was the case, triggering the symbol would be redundant, as it would just do xykon's work for him.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

agreed, maybe he had a magic system in place around lirian's gate like the one there was between his gate and the sapphire guard.
All the gatekeepers are in on the monitoring system. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) (4th panel, 3rd bubble)


As to the treants:

Lirian was romantically involved with Dorukan. It wouldn’t take much for him to convince Lirian of the value of a self-destruct. Why did the trees run? Because they were her self-destruct. An improved model, too: completely automated.

[Warren Dew]

Maybe Girard's gate will fall apart because he hid it so well they destroy it by accident.
Interesting point. Maybe they've already destroyed it by accident.

[Gift Jeraff]

I still maintain that Nale will destroy Girard's Gate, but, like the other Gates, something Girard set up will be involved. (An illusion which convinces the bad guy to do so?)

I just feel that Nale should in order to keep the opposite theme going: Elan accidentally destroyed the second Gate, so Nale should intentionally destroy the second-to-last one, for whatever reason.

Then maybe the IFCC destroys Serini's (through V?), that way each of the five major factions are responsible for a Gate's destruction. (They never said they wanted to capture a Gate, just that their plans involve them somehow.) To go along with the "the Scribblers set up self-destruction gambits in order to prevent the Gates from falling into the wrong hands" idea, maybe the final monster guarding the Gate somehow is the Gate? I don't know.

[slayerx]

Soooo... why didn't Redcloak touch it? Or why didn't they just capture some good guy and force him/her to touch it?

first redcloak is EVIL, the ward requires a good guy to touch it
Second Xykon learned how to unseal the gate from Nale in the present comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html)... there was no time to kidnap some good guy, and no point when they had good guys knocking at their door anyway... good guys that Xykon was absolutely sure he could destroy

[EmperorSarda]

(They never said they wanted to capture a Gate, just that their plans involve them somehow.)

I think they want to use V to capture a gate. Because everything they have said hints not at using the snarl to destroy ootsWorld, but the good-aligned planes.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think they want to use V to capture a gate. Because everything they have said hints not at using the snarl to destroy ootsWorld, but the good-aligned planes.
Well, it's technically true (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) that it's a scheme to bring down the gods of Good, and that would still be technically true if they also bring down the gods of Evil. :smallcool:

[Felixc-91]

Well, it's technically true (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) that it's a scheme to bring down the gods of Good, and that would still be technically true if they also bring down the gods of Evil. :smallcool: i suppose, but what of here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html), they seem to be talking fairly openly, and all they talk about is killing angels. its all about attacking the domains of good.

[Kish]

What do you mean, they seem to be talking fairly openly? They were talking to Vaarsuvius. Everything they say there is either 1) what they want Vaarsuvius to believe ("You were just the next name to come up") or 2) what they want Vaarsuvius to believe they want Vaarsuvius to believe ("You will be in complete control of the Soul Splice.")

I'm constantly mystified when people offer "s/he said so!" as a reason to believe a questionable assertion is true. Pointing to that comic, in particular, is scarcely better than using this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) as evidence that Xykon really didn't want anyone in the Order to touch Dorukan's Gate would be.

[Felixc-91]

fine, riddle me this, why would they want V to believe that they want to slaughter angels? what advantage do they gain by having V believe their eventual goal is the annihilation of all that is pure good?

edit: one of your examples is rather fail because it is an example of them telling V the truth, or very close to it. V was in control. all the souls were doing was speaking to him/her.

[Kish]

fine, riddle me this, why would they want V to believe that they want to slaughter angels? what advantage do they gain by having V believe their eventual goal is the annihilation of all that is pure good?

Simple. You're demonstrating it, in fact. By telling Vaarsuvius that their plan is something both horrendous and predictable, they encourage the impression that they're--how did you put it?--"talking fairly openly." By saying that they have an ultimate goal which is entirely stereotypical of fiends, they dissuade Vaarsuvius from looking below the surface of the "you were just the next name to come up" lie, from wondering why they're taking a personal interest in a member of the Order of the Stick. They're archfiends; do you think Vaarsuvius would believe them if they said "our goal is to open an orphanage"?


edit: one of your examples is rather fail because it is an example of them telling V the truth, or very close to it. V was in control. all the souls were doing was speaking to him/her.
And why did they tell Vaarsuvius that, do you think?
1) They wanted him/her to believe it, and were talking openly.
2) They knew s/he would not believe it, and wanted him/her to believe they were lying about it.

[EmperorSarda]

fine, riddle me this, why would they want V to believe that they want to slaughter angels? what advantage do they gain by having V believe their eventual goal is the annihilation of all that is pure good?


First off, they're demons (daemons, devils, etc). When don't they want the annihilation of all that is good and holy? 2nd, they were getting off a tangent there, which they covered up by saying it would be millenia before their plan would come to fruition.


edit: one of your examples is rather fail because it is an example of them telling V the truth, or very close to it. V was in control. all the souls were doing was speaking to him/her.

Yeah, V was in control of the souls. What does that have to do with their eventual plan?

I would like to note here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html) that they don't want the elf to die, that the whole thing would be a waste of time if V died. Which means, they don't want control of the Elf, or be in possession of his/her soul for 20 or so minutes after death, but before death. To control V. for the 43 or so minutes before death.

[Swordpriest]

fine, riddle me this, why would they want V to believe that they want to slaughter angels? what advantage do they gain by having V believe their eventual goal is the annihilation of all that is pure good?


I believe that their statement was put in for plot reasons, in order to set up V's action as evil rather than neutral or good. That's part of the reason why I dislike that whole section so intensely, since it was basically a huge set-up where V was basically screwed over repeatedly by DM fiat, just so that he could be obliged to follow what Roy called the "stupid railroad plot". :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

I think the real point about Liriel's gate is that she forgot that trees are flammable and this is a very obvious weakness that could be exploited by mother nature herself via an errant lightning bolt.

Seriously, the gate could have been destroyed simply from random chance, thor deciding he wanted to whinge lightning bolts in the area, or taking a day off from constantly controlling the weather.

[Grey Watcher]

I believe that their statement was put in for plot reasons, in order to set up V's action as evil rather than neutral or good. That's part of the reason why I dislike that whole section so intensely, since it was basically a huge set-up where V was basically screwed over repeatedly by DM fiat, just so that he could be obliged to follow what Roy called the "stupid railroad plot". :smallsigh:

Well, I think there's a certain element of them playing into V's expectations. They want V to believe that the whole deal is entirely on the up and up ("We simply don't need to trick if we can get what we want by playing it straight." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)). If they told V that they wanted this to help set up a home for wayward Yugoloths or something, he would've rejected that as a lie and it may very well have soured him on the deal (he's desperate enough that he'd probably have gone for it anyway, but why take unnecessary risks?). By stating their long-term goals as something plausible (indeed expected) of an alliance of fiends, it helps reinforce their pitch that they're dealing with V in good faith (no pun intended). (Whether they ARE or not is another matter entirely.)

[Gift Jeraff]

i suppose, but what of here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html), they seem to be talking fairly openly, and all they talk about is killing angels. its all about attacking the domains of good.
And if they plan to destroy the planes of Good, the planes of Neutrality, the OOTS planet, and dethrone the gods of Evil, that would still technically true. Then again, how could what they said be 100% true if they want to use the Snarl to attack the Upper Planes (which is how this sub-discussion started)?

[pendell]

...

Gate, what gate?

[137beth]

Interesting point. Maybe they've already destroyed it by accident.

I don't think that's very likely, given the huge noise made when a gate is destroyed. Still, Girard's behavior could easily be the cause of the destruction of his gate.

[The Pilgrim]

There is one undisputable pattern about the Gates.

They all tend to get destroyed, and make a *CCCRRACKKKAKKKKOOOOM* noise when blowed up. (empiric references: here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.htmll) - I'm too lazy to scan and upload the reference from SOD, sorry)

[snikrept]

It should be noted that the oracle said that Xykon would come within a thousand feet of Girard's Gate before he came within that radius of Kraagor's Gate. What he did not say is that Xykon would find or interact with Girard's Gate. Xykon, being hasty, might very well stand near it on the desert and say "to heck with this, I can't be bothered searching the desert, let's go to the polar cap" and fulfill the prophecy.

[factotum]

That theory has been mooted before, Snikrept, but think about it: if there's still another gate left, there really won't be any tension when they get to Kraagor's. Knowing it's the last gate will make it something both sides *have* to get! Not to mention that Redcloak and Xykon have been chasing these gates for the best part of 30 years--do you seriously think they're going to give up on this one so easily? Especially since Serini probably had the *real* location of the gate!

[Gandariel]

I think the real point about Liriel's gate is that she forgot that trees are flammable and this is a very obvious weakness that could be exploited by mother nature herself via an errant lightning bolt.

Seriously, the gate could have been destroyed simply from random chance, thor deciding he wanted to whinge lightning bolts in the area, or taking a day off from constantly controlling the weather.

at the time of their first battle, Lirian had surely protected her trees (since she already knew they were coming)
but in the second battle.. she didn't absolutely expect an attack, and so the trees were not protected

[snikrept]

IMO it would be very like the Giant to turn yet another trope on its head and have the climactic showdown occur at the penultimate gate, and not at the last gate like always happens in every fantasy story about multiple macguffins.:smallbiggrin:

[Felixc-91]

IMO it would be very like the Giant to turn yet another trope on its head and have the climactic showdown occur at the penultimate gate, and not at the last gate like always happens in every fantasy story about multiple macguffins.:smallbiggrin:hmmm, might be good. but it dose make it so the tensions lower. i mean, if they screw up, there's a chance of something going wrong. if the screw up the last gate its pretty much guaranteed to send things to hell and beyond. oh well, either way I'm sure it'll be great.

[blackjack217]

His point about idiotic destruction still stands as elan destroyed the gate for no god reason (that he knew of)

[Popertop]

who is guarding kraagor's gate?

[Nimrod's Son]

who is guarding kraagor's gate?
For sure? All we know at the moment is that there are a lot of nasty monsters serving as guardians. Serini may or may not be there too.

Oh, and O-Chul and Lien are on their way. What exactly they'll do when they arrive remains to be seen.

[Coidzor]

at the time of their first battle, Lirian had surely protected her trees (since she already knew they were coming)
but in the second battle.. she didn't absolutely expect an attack, and so the trees were not protected

Indeed, as I was saying, that much maintenance necessary to deal with simple weather issues was simply bad design.

[Felixc-91]

Indeed, as I was saying, that much maintenance necessary to deal with simple weather issues was simply bad design.... yeah, really bad design. i was looking in the PHB, and i'm not even sure how she would effectively protect the 'trees' from the elements. the only way to deal with lightning would be a daily weather control spell, the protective spell (non epic) that a druid knows just can't compete with the fire power of a natural (or Thor grade) lightning bolt. plus brush fires... caused by accident or on purpose would be a massive problem. protection from energy only covers a max of 120 points of damage. so she would have to use personally invented epic spells to really protect them... she gets, what, 2, 3, maybe 4 if she is REALLY powerful.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

…the protective spell (non epic) that a druid knows…
What does all that matter to an epic druid, then?

[Gandariel]

I think every gm would safely houserule that in a forest in which an epic druid lives, the weather is always good, no fires happen, trees don't die, ect (Lirian could also have some sort of telepathy with the creatures in the forest...)
it's all part of the cool-druidic-heremit-intouchwithnature thing...

[silvadel]

They could have always resurrected right-eye.

[Swordpriest]

I think every gm would safely houserule that in a forest in which an epic druid lives, the weather is always good, no fires happen, trees don't die, ect (Lirian could also have some sort of telepathy with the creatures in the forest...)
it's all part of the cool-druidic-heremit-intouchwithnature thing...

Plus, the odds of lightning hitting one particular tree are pretty minuscule -- besides the will of the druid affecting the whole area, as you say (like Saruman able to speed up his orcs and make their pursuers weary throughout the area around Isengard).

[Popertop]

Has it ever been outright stated that they are/were Epic level?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Has it ever been outright stated that they are/were Epic level?
Start of Darkness
After Lirian’s Gate is destroyed, Xykon asks Redcloak if they can rebuild it. Redcloak tells Xykon they would both have to be epic level to do so. That labels the Gates as being epic magic items which require epic spellcasters to create. Dorukan and Lirian not only created gates, but also invented the whole process. Therefore, Dorukan and Lirian at least were epic level.

[Gnoman]

Not to mention that the Cloister spell Dorukan invented is an Epic spell.

[Forlong]

They could pick some good people who aren't powerful adventurers. I mean, it's a pretty big country.
They didn't have time, and the adventurers were right there.


So the question remains, why build the rune if he did not use it. It was clearly fully functional. Even if he thought he would suceed in his duel with Xykon, he clearly had servants and beings working for him still in the dungeon who could tell that he lost the duel. Why did nothing activate the self destruct in the weeks it took Xykon to move in and take over the Dungeon?

It could be that he was so pissed about Xykon sealing away his girlfriend's soul that it slipped his mind.

[AgentofOdd]

It could be that he was so pissed about Xykon sealing away his girlfriend's soul that it slipped his mind.I also believe this was the case. I mean he's a wizard (class known for being crazy prepared), and he entered a battle with Xykon, one of the most important battles in his life, without fully buffing himself... That's either very pissed, very arrogant, or both.

[martianmister]

He was acting carelessly because this could be his only chance to save her soul from them.

[Gandariel]

And another thing, isn't there a spell which protects you from Energy drain?

[AgentofOdd]

And another thing, isn't there a spell which protects you from Energy drain?Yep, the Death Ward (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Death_Ward) spell. Not an arcane spell, but can be cast with Limited Wish in an emergency.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Not to mention that the Cloister spell Dorukan invented is an Epic spell.
Oh, yeah. Of course. There is that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) (3rd panel). :smallbiggrin:

[Swordpriest]

Oh, yeah. Of course. There is that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) (3rd panel). :smallbiggrin:

Well, that's danged conclusive. :smallcool:

[Morgan Wick]

As to the treants:

Lirian was romantically involved with Dorukan. It wouldn’t take much for him to convince Lirian of the value of a self-destruct. Why did the trees run? Because they were her self-destruct. An improved model, too: completely automated.

It could have been the other way around. SoD and speculation There was once, if there has not been recurringly, a theory that Lirian wanted the Gates to be destroyed somehow. That would explain why she threw Team Evil in a place where they could survive for long enough for Xykon to be lichified, had treants who ran away and destroyed the Gate, and why she revealed the existence of other gates right before Xykon killed her. Well, being a ditz would as well, but this is more interesting.


That's part of the reason why I dislike that whole section so intensely, since it was basically a huge set-up where V was basically screwed over repeatedly by DM fiat, just so that he could be obliged to follow what Roy called the "stupid railroad plot". :smallsigh:

And this is the problem with OOTS Gamer Theory Syndrome (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2008/11/if-this-post-is-full-of-the-html-code-for-an-ampersand-in-hyperlinks-that-get-broken-as-a-result-blame-bloggers-draft-post-editor/), and why it has been officially kiboshed. See the story as a game, and you see the characters seemingly directed by DM fiat, forced to follow the "stupid railroad plot", almost as though it's not a game, but a story. But see it as a story, and suddenly you appreciate the torment that V's character is going through, the tragic themes he's living through, and also the cunning of the fiends.

[weckar]

Something just struck me... Girard was a master of illusions, no? Illusions -> mirages, they are in a desert. Thus far we has a church-sized gate a a mini gate. Who is to say that this gate is not, in fact, the whole desert?? Hiding in plain sight up to 11!

[Swordpriest]

And this is the problem with OOTS Gamer Theory Syndrome (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2008/11/if-this-post-is-full-of-the-html-code-for-an-ampersand-in-hyperlinks-that-get-broken-as-a-result-blame-bloggers-draft-post-editor/), and why it has been officially kiboshed. See the story as a game, and you see the characters seemingly directed by DM fiat, forced to follow the "stupid railroad plot", almost as though it's not a game, but a story. But see it as a story, and suddenly you appreciate the torment that V's character is going through, the tragic themes he's living through, and also the cunning of the fiends.

I don't know, it seems equally stupid to me as a story. But, I know that a lot of people like it for whatever reason, so I just basically skip over it when I'm reading the comic, and still enjoy it.