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0Megabyte
2010-12-20, 08:42 PM
So, I know a lot about D&D 3.5, and have a lot of books on it. I know which ones are pretty good, and which ones aren't, and I know how the game works to a pretty high degree.

Enter Fourth Edition.

It's slowly warmed on me the longer it's been out. Not as a replacement for 3.5, not in the least. It can obviously do very different things well, and to be honest I kind of like some of the things 3.P can do that 4E can't.

4E iis an entirely different game, with an entirely different focus. The focus, though, seems fun to play. I have the core rulebooks, and that's enough to get started.

But, I'm curious which of the many 4E supplements (not Essentials) are worth getting. I've heard there have been rules changes from what's in the core rulebooks. Which of these are most important? (once again, not meaning Essentials, but vanilla 4E)

TL;DR - What are the best non-core books for 4E, and what rules changes and errata should I be aware of?

(edited for brevity and style)

Galdor Miriel
2010-12-20, 08:46 PM
I find the books less interesting in 4E as you get all the content via the builder. For a good read though dmg2 is excellent. I am also planning on getting the rules compendium because that looks like an interesting book with everything you need at the table in one place.

That said, I enjoyed some parts of players handbook 3

GM

WitchSlayer
2010-12-20, 08:50 PM
Even if it is Essentials, I'd say getting the Essentials DMG and Monster Vault would be wise, because the DMG has all the errata and the Monster Vault updates the PHB1 monsters to be threats, but as for non Essentials stuff, check out the Monster Manual 2 and 3, 2 to challenge your players, 3 to challenge your players if they're fairly good optimizers.

MeeposFire
2010-12-20, 09:48 PM
The changes you are thinking are updates which can be found in the update documents. Unless you buy the essentials products you will not see them in print. What you call the best books depends on what kind of classes you like or if you are a DM.

PHB2 Barbarians, bards, druids, and sorcerers. It also has newer class concepts based on primal and divine themes.

PHB 3 Monks, and psions. It also has a bunch of psionic, primal, and divine classes.

Dark Sun-This book is full of new stuff and so is worth a look. Themes and wild talents are very cool.

XXXX Power books are only worth it if you like a specific build fro a specific class like the brawler fighter in Martial Power 2 (grabs and punches enemies)

I happen to like Essentials so I would have said that would be a good buy but if you do not want them thats cool.

ninja_penguin
2010-12-20, 09:54 PM
The Adventure Vault 1 (and maybe 2, but I found a case of diminishing returns in that Adventure Vault 1 had a huge horde of new stuff, AV2 felt more like a sets book).

The various Power Source Power books are rather decent for the first one as well, and sometimes the second.


If you're DM'ing, get the MM3 and/or monster vault. I know you're not planning on running essentials, but the monster vault monsters are basically updated versions of the MM1 monsters, which are lackluster due to low damage and high HP.

MeeposFire
2010-12-20, 10:43 PM
Newer monster books make for less "padded sumo" monsters and thus qicker more fun fights. Books with these better designed monsters include

MM3

Dark sun Creature compendium (may not be the right name look for the dark sun book that is not the setting itself).

Monster vault

These monsters are scarier to players (hit harder) and also take less time to kill (less hp).

Kurald Galain
2010-12-21, 05:51 AM
But, I'm curious which of the many 4E supplements (not Essentials) are worth getting.
That depends.

If you're a player and want a different class, either PHB2 or PHB3 will give you a ton more options.
If you're a player and want more options for your already-chosen class, either a Foo Power splatbook or the Adventurer's Vault is a decent pick, although frankly it's easier to just get a short compendium subscription.
For a DM, the MM3 is your best bet, skipping the earlier two MMs. I haven't seen anything in the DMG or DMG2 that's worth buying the book for.
Also for a DM, take a setting-specific sourcebook if you want to play in that setting; that should be obvious. That includes the various 'Nomicons and Plane books.



I've heard there have been rules changes from what's in the core rulebooks. Which of these are most important?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9090134&postcount=90

That said, almost none of it is a big deal unless you have the kind of party that's into heavy near-breaking optimization (and if you do, the errata is not enough). The two that are a big deal are stealth rules and skill challenges, because both have fundamental problems as first printed.

Sipex
2010-12-21, 09:58 AM
Stealth changes are detailed in the PHB2 as well.

Some of my favourites:

Players Handbook 2: Contains new races (Gnome, Goliath, Shifter...) and classes (Druids, Sorcerors, Bards...). Also contains paragon paths for seperate races and new items for the new classes within. Also contains background bonuses.

Players Handbook 3: Contains even more new and obscure races (Shardmind) along with new classes. (Monks and Psions). In addition, contains the rules for creating Hybrid characters.

Monster Manuals 2 & 3: Contains more monsters which have new, interesting tactics and tweaked stats.

Adventurer's Vault 1: Contains new weapon types, Creating items with Alchemy, various new potions with different effects, various magic items (for all slots and all classes), various new wonderous items (ie: Bag of Holding, etc), Vehicle rules and new mounts.

edit: Also, check out the various Power books (ie: Arcane Power). They contain a lot more options (powers, feats, builds) for classes of their specified type

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-21, 10:50 AM
Buy PHB I and DMG I for easy reference of the core rules. Then subscribe to DDI.

If it's just for yourself, shell out $10 (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Subscription.aspx) to get a month's access to the Character Builder (incorporates all splatbooks & Errata in one handy program) and Adventure Tools (AKA Monster Builder - incorporates all monsters ever published for 4E + Errata). This lets you sample the buffet of 4E materials without shelling out money for books on the sayso of Internet People like me :smalltongue:

Personally, I've found it best to play around with Character Builder and see if there's any book that I always turn to. For example, if I just love Paladins I would pick up Divine Power so that I can more easily leaf through the options available for the class. If you love Psionics, PHB III is a good buy.

Also: buy any campaign settings that you plan to run or just enjoy. That's one thing that never really transfered over to DDI.

Finally: if you do plan on running a 4E campaign, split the cost of a year's subscription amongst your Players. Split 4 ways, it comes to $20 per person and - believe you me - Character Builder makes 4E run so much better :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2010-12-21, 11:00 AM
shell out $10 to get a month's access to the Character Builder
However, with the new (online-only) character builder, when your month is over you will no longer be able to read any of that. And sharing one charbuilder account with four people is not actually allowed by WOTC. So I'd say you're better off just buying one book for $20 and lending that to your party members if needed.

Sipex
2010-12-21, 11:02 AM
Where are you getting books for $20?!

Everywhere I look they're upwards of 40 or 50.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-21, 11:06 AM
Where are you getting books for $20?!

Everywhere I look they're upwards of 40 or 50.

MM3 and PHB3 are $23 on Amazon, HOFK is only $13.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-21, 11:07 AM
However, with the new (online-only) character builder, when your month is over you will no longer be able to read any of that. And sharing one charbuilder account with four people is not actually allowed by WOTC. So I'd say you're better off just buying one book for $20 and lending that to your party members if needed.
Meh. If it's not allowed then WotC is doing a really poor job of managing access. They don't even boot multiple simultaneous sign-ins on a single account! :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, you can always print-to-PDF any character sheets you plan on using after your DDI expires. And, as I said before, you should buy any books you really take a shine for - DDI is best used either as a campaign tool or as a preview for the system.

If the OP becomes serious about D&D4 he can always just buy up the books he liked from DDI; no reason to buy 'em sight unseen when you don't have to :smallamused:

Sipex
2010-12-21, 11:12 AM
MM3 and PHB3 are $23 on Amazon, HOFK is only $13.

Oh, that makes sense then.

I've got a store I support so I buy them all here. The place does sell the books at their cheapest in the city though ($30-$35).

Plus I always miss the deliveries (due to work) and have to trudge down to the postal office to get them.

Lifeson
2010-12-21, 11:15 AM
The campaign settings, pretty much. Everything else, as already said, can be found somewhere in the Character Builder. Dark Sun and Eberron are my favourites, personally.

0Megabyte
2010-12-21, 11:32 AM
Wow, quite a variety of advice!

(Also, Lifeson, fun Tohsaka avatar. Isn't Elder Tsofu the best?)

The character builder seems like a pretty good deal. I vaguely remember people showing me stuff on there back when I played 4E for a little while about a year and a half ago, but I forgot all about that!

Campaign books look nice, though when I flipped through the Eberron book, I didn't really like some of the changes they made. (Yes, yes, "they changed it, and now it sucks!" It's a cliche, but alas, even I'm not immune to knee-jerk reactions.) Dark Sun looked amazing, though I don't know what it was like for 2E.

I'll have to decide, because I don't have the money to buy a whole lot at the moment. The campaign books look good, and of the other books, none mentioned really look bad. The design philosophy of the monsters really changed that much between the monster manuals, though? (I don't mean statblocks, but power and whatnot.) That's interesting to know, and exactly the sort of info I needed.

I'll have to think on all of this. If had my way (i.e., had a whole lot of money all of a sudden) I'd probably buy the PHB 2 and 3, DMG 2, MM 2 and 3, the two Dark Sun books and the Adventurer's Vault. Those might be interesting. The powers books seem fun too, but seem less central.

Alas, I'll have to make decisions. Still, thanks for the suggestions so far!

Really, though, and here's a more specific question, how much use are the Powers books? Do they really add enough to be worth the price of a hardbound version, when DDI is available?

Sipex
2010-12-21, 11:41 AM
They're cheaper than the other books but DDI does make them obscolete. On your limited budget I would recommend against getting them in favour of other books.

ninja_penguin
2010-12-21, 11:43 AM
Really, though, and here's a more specific question, how much use are the Powers books? Do they really add enough to be worth the price of a hardbound version, when DDI is available?

Iffy. They're more splatbooky, but I have an old computer/I have a problem with reading things for long periods of times on computer screens. I do, however, have a big enough table to lay out a couple books and a character sheet, so that way is just more fun for me.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-21, 11:47 AM
Really, though, and here's a more specific question, how much use are the Powers books? Do they really add enough to be worth the price of a hardbound version, when DDI is available?
The X-Power books add some extra fluff and RP advice for each power source in addition to all the feats & powers and such. Personally, I've never cared much for D&D default fluff so it's not worth it for me.

YMMV :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2010-12-21, 11:54 AM
Really, though, and here's a more specific question, how much use are the Powers books? Do they really add enough to be worth the price of a hardbound version, when DDI is available?

Well, they're only useful if you have a long-term character of the appropriate power source. Then, you have three choices.

Take a one-month DDI subscription for $10. However, you're renting the information: when the month is past, you can no longer access it.
Take a permanent DDI subscription for $100 per year or thereabouts. You can access the info as long as you keep paying, until either WOTC goes bankrupt, or 5E is released.
Buy the permanent book for $20.


So yeah, I'd say that buying the book is worth it. I don't like renting information.

Kerrin
2010-12-22, 01:12 PM
I don't have any of the original 4E books but I did pick up the 4E Essentials Rules Compendium to learn the core rules of the game and have enjoyed reading through it. I now know what most of the game mechanics of 4E are.

So, from my limited experience, I recommend the Rules Compendium as a way to get all the core rules.

mobdrazhar
2010-12-22, 08:16 PM
i would definately agree that MM3 should be one of the next books to get as firstly the powers layout for the creatures is much easier to read and secondly your players could potentially get through more encounters due to the lower HP on the monsters but still be treatened by them due to the higher damage output (this goes the same for the Dark Sun Creature Catalouge).

if you want to give your players more variety as well i would suggest getting PHB 2 & 3 (2 for the primal classes including Barbarian and 3 for the psionic classes).

Urpriest
2010-12-22, 08:22 PM
This may be something of a side point, but what measures does WotC have, if any, to discourage players from sharing accounts on the current Character Builder? The old one had the monthly update install limits, but clearly that can't be done on an online tool.

MeeposFire
2010-12-22, 09:34 PM
A maximum of 20 saves at a time.

Granted it annoys your paying customers who want to use it in a legit fashion than people who don't but WotC does not think these things through very well. It also does not work if you have it open in two browsers or comupter at the same time.

Sipex
2010-12-23, 09:03 AM
A maximum of 20 saves at a time.

Granted it annoys your paying customers who want to use it in a legit fashion than people who don't but WotC does not think these things through very well. It also does not work if you have it open in two browsers or comupter at the same time.

Now now, it's easy to assume they're idiots. The fact is though that they probably discussed this at length, proposed and even tested several solutions (as is per the norm of the software life cycle).

This solution isn't going to please everyone but if you seriously want to see a solution which would entail "Not thinking things through" things could've gotten a lot worse to serve the purposes they wanted to achieve.

Grogmir
2010-12-23, 09:10 AM
I will never buy another PHB after seeing how much errata is need on mine - had to buy the rules compendium - should have given it away free (or at cost) as a customer service nod - but hey ho...

I think you would get more as a player getting the character Builder. The DMG is okayish - but a lot of the meat (I.e in combat stuff) is actually in the PHB because everyone needs to know it.

The DMG ends up repeating itself (about how to build a fluffy en****er) a lot.

Just spent 20 pounds on the Monster Vault - Battlemat, Free adventure, updated Monster Building AND lots of monster tokens - I'm looking forward to that. But like I say haven't got it yet.

Sipex
2010-12-23, 09:12 AM
Well, I'm sold. I'm getting the Monster Vault as my next purchase. It just contains too many useful things.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-23, 09:17 AM
Now now, it's easy to assume they're idiots. The fact is though that they probably discussed this at length, proposed and even tested several solutions (as is per the norm of the software life cycle).
Sure. But the fact is also that the people who made this decision probably weren't gamers, and probably saw making money as a higher priority than giving the customers exactly what they want. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that - they are, after all, a business, not a public service.


The DMG is okayish - but a lot of the meat (I.e in combat stuff) is actually in the PHB because everyone needs to know it.
Well, yes. The DMG isn't meant to explain the rules, it instead focuses suggestions on how to run a campaign. It does end up containing some rules, but all the important stuff you can't do without is in the PHBs. This is basically because previous editions had rules that the players didn't need to know, and 4E pretty much doesn't (and for that matter, neither do most RPGs other than D&D)

Grogmir
2010-12-23, 09:22 AM
Well, I'm sold. I'm getting the Monster Vault as my next purchase. It just contains too many useful things.


See that WotC!? where's my commission please! :smallbiggrin:


Well, yes. The DMG isn't meant to explain the rules, it instead focuses suggestions on how to run a campaign.

I'm not sure - but it just seemed a little 'lite' compared to 3.5 DMG - and the sections that should have been good - skill challenges for example - are completely useless. So for me its not the best. Its needed - but doesn't seem worth it imo.

Sipex
2010-12-23, 09:26 AM
Sure. But the fact is also that the people who made this decision probably weren't gamers, and probably saw making money as a higher priority than giving the customers exactly what they want. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that - they are, after all, a business, not a public service.

Oh, absolutely.

I have no doubt that those who put the work into the software were probably (mostly) gamers but those at the top who approve the decisions aren't guaranteed to be. It wouldn't matter if they were anyways because those individuals still have to keep the company's interests at heart as well (or be out of a job). I'm sure a gaming executive would've made the same choice simply on the basis that "This program needs to fit our current corporate strategy." and "This program also needs to turn a profit."

Most products (especially software) hit this wall and it's just something we have to accept.

0Megabyte
2010-12-27, 04:16 AM
So, it's been a couple days, and I've been doing more research (thanks for the info here, as well!) and I have to state what I've found. Any questions left over will be underlined:

4E has been changing alot in the last two and a half years, and there's been a lot of errata and rules fixes. Some of the stuff in the core rulebooks don't look very good, even to me. (e.g. "common skill checks are 15? Huh?!")

When it comes to monsters, the books worth getting are apparently the Monster Vault (to replace much of my Monster Manual 1), the MM3 and the Dark Sun Creature Catalogue. Apparently solos in the monster vault have been improved even further than in MM3, and that sounds good.

The Rules Compendium is an errata'd version of the rules of the game, and will probably replace the DMG entirely. Whether I need the DMG 2 is hard for me to tell. What's in it that's worth having? If it's just DMing advice, then I could probably pass. But is it accurate to say the Rules Compendium replaces it as well?

Dungeon Tiles are still fun. Though the price increase isn't quite commensurate to the increase in number per box. Having boxes at all, though, is helpful. They're less important, as I have a number already. I could probably get another Desert of Athas set, though.

DM's Kit seems somewhat superfluous from what I've read. I think I heard it contains magic items and whatnot, but have those really been changed much since the PHB or the Adventurer's Vault? To anyone who has the DM's Kit: Is there anything in there worth having, assuming someone has both core and the rules compendium?

As for the Essentials players books... I'm less certain. They seem like entirely new class styles entirely, and I actually think the style of 4E is kinda neat. I suppose it would be under the purview of the player involved, and I'd imagine that if a player wanted to use material from one of those books for a PC, it'd be fine. I see no reason to restrict PC's to either old form, with all their tons of new stuff, or the new essentials.

However, for the old classes, such as the ones in the PHB, is there any important errata, like for powers or feats or whatnot? I mean, any sources for them outside of the character builder?

For other books for players, such as PHB 2 and 3 and the Powers line, it seems to me that I might get one if they interest me, but they're less important. Especially if I use the character builder, which I well might if I get a better source of income to afford it!

Adventurer's Vaults seem interesting. Is there anything worth having in them?

Finally, campaign books are to me optional, but Dark Sun looks really fun. I'd probably buy that one even before any of the others!

Also, though not exactly Dungeons and Dragons, Gamma World looks like a fun detour.

So, that's what I've come up with, thanks for all your help so far.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-27, 04:23 AM
Whether I need the DMG 2 is hard for me to tell. What's in it that's worth having?
Nothing. It contains just some DM advice, and nothing particularly shocking or innovative. If you're a DM and need advice, ask on any D&D forum.


To anyone who has the DM's Kit: Is there anything in there worth having, assuming someone has both core and the rules compendium?
Primarily the monster counters. There aren't many magical items in there; instead, buy either Adventurer's Vault, or the upcoming Mordy's Tome.


However, for the old classes, such as the ones in the PHB, is there any important errata, like for powers or feats or whatnot?
There's lots of errata, ymmv as to whether it's important. Check this page, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updates


Adventurer's Vaults seem interesting. Is there anything worth having in them?
Yes. It has hundreds of magical items of varying power level. Of course, the character builder also has those.

0Megabyte
2010-12-28, 11:00 PM
Thanks a ton for the errata. That's a great read.

Anyway, what do you guys think of those power cards, and other accessories? They seem either like they'd be really useful... or a complete waste of money.

Blackfang108
2010-12-28, 11:05 PM
Thanks a ton for the errata. That's a great read.

Anyway, what do you guys think of those power cards, and other accessories? They seem either like they'd be really useful... or a complete waste of money.

the purchasable power cards?

Skip 'em. There are cheaper ways to get the info down, and enough of them came out before all of the errata that it can be a pain. not to mention they're incomplete sets.

Power Cards in general? Useful as all [beep].

Dungeon tiles are useful if your group likes them. Mine makes good with a Grid Mat and Magic Markers. Your preference sorta thing.

Official D&D Dice? Skip 'em. you can get better and cheaper from the game store. (I have one set as a xmas gift. I HATE that set. The d20's nearly round.)

Gralamin
2010-12-28, 11:07 PM
Thanks a ton for the errata. That's a great read.

Anyway, what do you guys think of those power cards, and other accessories? They seem either like they'd be really useful... or a complete waste of money.

If you want power cards, the best deal is to get the character builder. You can either take the current online approach, or you can look into a bit more technical way to use the offline builder with newer content (Using open source utilities). If you do the second way, it's a lot more manual work, but it is very cheap. :smallwink:

0Megabyte
2010-12-28, 11:14 PM
Thanks, I had a hunch the purchasable ones weren't a good investment. After all, they aren't errata'd, or complete.

This character builder seems hugely useful. Now that I think about it, the time I played 4E with an established group, about a year and a half ago, they used it. Now that I remember it, it seemed useful then, too.

As for dungeon tiles, I have a bunch, but I wonder how much space is in the boxes for the new ones? Besides, they're pretty useful things in general.

And the Official dice? I don't need those. I have a bunch of sets, some of them look really nice, too.

Honestly, a lot the accessories, like the Cleric accessory set, whatever it was called, seem really superfluous.

Anonomuss
2010-12-29, 08:34 AM
The essentials dungeon tiles are fantastic. They can hold up to two full sets of the essentials dungeon tiles (Which each have 10 sheets of tiles within them).

However, my favourite thing about them? The boxes are also dungeon tiles.The lid gives 1 square elevation, whereas the base gives 2 squares of elevation. They didn't implement it as well as they could have in the Dungeon set, but the City set has two long rows of rooftops, which I really like. If you're into dungeon tiles, these are the ones to get.

Sipex
2010-12-29, 10:10 AM
Alright, on accessories?

Power Cards are varying. For some players they're fantastic for others they don't work. I, personally, love them, makes it easy to reference the powers you have and track what you've used (per encounter or per day). I would recommend the pre-printed packs though, there were blank sets which came out before but they're tedious to write on. All in all, leave this up to your players.

Token sets are half useful and half useless. For instance, you're right about the cleric set, they're generally useless. I can think of some creative application for them but in reality I didn't need them. Other sets, particularily those for classes who mark or pass around status effects are far more useful (ie: The Warlock and Fighter sets). That said, the same thing can be done with some creative crafting and the pieces are generally useless if your DM and players have good memories on status effects and marks.

The DM's Token Set is nice, it has several status effects along with blank scrolls and are writable via wet erase marker (dry works too but isn't as vivid as wet). Again, this is only useful for certain groups. Mine is one because I often forget about status effects and marks in the heat of battle.

kc0bbq
2010-12-29, 11:20 AM
I still think Open Grave is the best of the hardcover books. There's just a lot of meat to it.