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View Full Version : Wizard, Cleric, Mystic Theurge, other duel class?



Master Thrower
2010-12-20, 10:25 PM
Well i'm planning on making a sorcerer, cleric, into mystic theurge. I plan on entering early through the precious apprentice feat. Is their anyway I could enter another duel casting class without various feat requiremints. Note we are starting at tenth level so I'm planning for the future.
Usable books- PH,DMG,MM,PlH,LB,Drc,CA,CW,CD,CadV

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-20, 10:28 PM
Well i'm planning on making a sorcerer, cleric, into mystic theurge. I plan on entering early through the precious apprentice feat. Is their anyway I could enter another duel casting class without various feat requiremints. Note we are starting at tenth level so I'm planning for the future.
Usable books- PH,DMG,MM,PlH,LB,Drc,CA,CW,CD,CadV

Not within those books, no. You'd need CS or Weapons of Legacy to pull that off.

Unless you want to go with True Necromancer from Libris Mortis... but that's not exactly recommended...

Master Thrower
2010-12-20, 10:30 PM
Not within those books, no. You'd need CS or Weapons of Legacy to pull that off.

Unless you want to go with True Necromancer from Libris Mortis... but that's not exactly recommended...

Isnt their one in the complete adventurer? like something lyrist?

Sinfonian
2010-12-20, 10:32 PM
Isnt their one in the complete adventurer? like something lyrist?
Fochlucan Lyricist requires Language: Druidic, which won't be easy to get. Much easier will be the requirement for Evasion (which can be bought at sufficient wealth).

Edit: Spelling.

Master Thrower
2010-12-20, 10:33 PM
Foluchan Lyricist requires Language: Druidic, which won't be easy to get. Much easier will be the requirement for Evasion (which can be bought at sufficient wealth).

Maybe a druid 3 wizard 1 instead? but only taking 3 levels of druid feels bad... :smallfrown:

Sinfonian
2010-12-20, 10:35 PM
I checked just now, it also requires Bardic Knowledge and 13 ranks in Perform (Stringed).

Master Thrower
2010-12-20, 10:37 PM
oh so it'd be virtually impossible to incorporate that in. Ok well i'll probabably take an arcane class after Mystic Theurge to help up my arcane casting due to only having 1 level of wizard.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-20, 10:37 PM
Fochlucan Lyricist requires Language: Druidic, which won't be easy to get. Much easier will be the requirement for Evasion (which can be bought at sufficient wealth).

Edit: Spelling.

Only items do not allow you to qualify for PrC's in most cases, which means you'll also need a two-level dip somewhere else for Evasion.

Master Thrower
2010-12-20, 10:59 PM
Well thats to bad. Any ideas on what my feat selection should be?

tyckspoon
2010-12-20, 11:46 PM
Only items do not allow you to qualify for PrC's in most cases, which means you'll also need a two-level dip somewhere else for Evasion.

There honestly isn't a rule that prohibits that. All you need is the prerequisite. The rules really don't care how you get it. A Ring of Evasion gives you Evasion, the PrC wants you to have Evasion, you qualify with the Ring because you have Evasion. It does make it more likely that you'll have to try and figure out how the rules for not having your prereqs are actually supposed to work, and avoiding that particular mess is a worthwhile goal.. but there's nothing stopping you from just wearing the Ring instead of spending even more class levels.

Master Thrower
2010-12-20, 11:47 PM
There honestly isn't a rule that prohibits that. All you need is the prerequisite. The rules really don't care how you get it. A Ring of Evasion gives you Evasion, the PrC wants you to have Evasion, you qualify with the Ring because you have Evasion. It does make it more likely that you'll have to try and figure out how the rules for not having your prereqs are actually supposed to work, and avoiding that particular mess is a worthwhile goal.. but there's nothing stopping you from just wearing the Ring instead of spending even more class levels.

that still leaves learning drudic? forcing them to through magic? maybe?
and knowing bardic music. I'd have no idea how to fit that all into one build along with Mystic theurge

tyckspoon
2010-12-20, 11:52 PM
that still leaves learning drudic? forcing them to through magic? maybe?
and knowing bardic music. I'd have no idea how to fit that all into one build along with Mystic theurge

You probably won't. Fochluchan Lyricist is notoriously difficult to get in to, and doesn't really have commensurate rewards. It's mostly just an oddity in the sheer variety of things it progresses if you do decide to wrangle your way in.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-12-21, 12:00 AM
If you could push for Unearthed Arcana you could take Cloister Cleric Variant which gives you Lore, which is the same thing as bardic knowledge.

Vizzerdrix
2010-12-21, 02:16 AM
Ya need weapons of legacy or Races of the Wild. Or Ur Priest.

Master Thrower
2010-12-21, 08:00 AM
Ya need weapons of legacy or Races of the Wild. Or Ur Priest.

I can use Ur priest

AyeGill
2010-12-21, 08:04 AM
If you could push for Unearthed Arcana you could take Cloister Cleric Variant which gives you Lore, which is the same thing as bardic knowledge.

It's virtually the same thing as bardic knowledge, but it isn't ACTUALLY bardic knowledge, and only bardic knowledge can qualify. Although a loser reading of the rules could read the clause: "This functions as bardic knowledge" as also meaning qualifying for PrC's. But i dont.
Also, loremaster from the DMG lets you learn any language, and it doesn't say it can't be a secret one.

Gnaeus
2010-12-21, 08:10 AM
Seconding a need for races of the wild. Arcane Hierophant is by far the best of the theurge classes if you are willing to look at druid.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-21, 08:23 AM
There honestly isn't a rule that prohibits that. All you need is the prerequisite. The rules really don't care how you get it. A Ring of Evasion gives you Evasion, the PrC wants you to have Evasion, you qualify with the Ring because you have Evasion. It does make it more likely that you'll have to try and figure out how the rules for not having your prereqs are actually supposed to work, and avoiding that particular mess is a worthwhile goal.. but there's nothing stopping you from just wearing the Ring instead of spending even more class levels.

For TO, and by RAW, yes. However, I have yet to see an actual GM allow this in any game. As he is asking for advice for an actual game, I would not want to suggest to him that any GM would accept that interpretation.

dextercorvia
2010-12-21, 08:46 AM
I can use Ur priest

Double check with your DM, it is almost universally panned outside of High Op games. If he allows it you can do:

Wizard5/Mindbender1/UrPriest2/MT8/X4

Where X is anything that advances wizard casting.

It's been a while since I did the calculations, but (If you don't spend feats) I think it requires Human+Int18 or Int20 to get all of the skill requirements for Mindbender/UrPriest (lots of crossclass stuff for a Wizard) right at the appropriate levels. Otherwise, Able Learner can help. And there are a few feats that add to your class skill list that might be worth looking into. Since Ur Priest requires two feats to enter, you will only have room for something like this if you are a race with a Bonus Feat, or Flaws.

Ernir
2010-12-21, 08:47 AM
Hey, if you're evil enough to be an Ur-Priest, just torture a low-level Druid until he agrees to teach you the secret language.

AyeGill
2010-12-21, 09:01 AM
Hey, if you're evil enough to be an Ur-Priest, just torture a low-level Druid until he agrees to teach you the secret language.

I can totally imagine someone like that showing up for Fochluchan Lyrist training.

"So, you passed the druidic language test."
"Yes i did."
"And yet you signed up for clerical spell training instead of druidic?"
"Yeah, i just thought i'd, y'know, branch out a bit"
"Did you capture a druid and forced him to teach you the language?"
"I... No?"
"Yeah, we're gonna have to check your memory."

Wabbajack
2010-12-21, 09:34 AM
There's a wizard variant that gives bardic knowledge, the Filidh from Dragon 324 p90.

erikun
2010-12-21, 03:16 PM
Probably the easiest thing you can do is to ask your DM if you can extend the Mystic Theurge into a 15-level prestige class. It would be far easier than trying to qualify for Arcane Heirophant/Foluchan Lyricist/Ultimate Magus as well.

As for other dual-caster options:

Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8 is very good for getting 9th level spellcasting in both Wizard and Ur-Priest, and doesn't require any trickery to enter. The last level can be either Wizard (for a feat) or Mystic Theurge, and you can pick up a prestige class for the Wizard before 9th level. (Mindbender 1 gives you a better Fort save for earlier entry, and free Telepathy.)

Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 10 is good, both for dual spellcasting and for progressing all of your base class abilities. It's also fun to ride your animal companion/familiar around. You can take levels in Mystic Theurge if you prefer 9/9 spellcasting over your uberfamiliar.

Wizard 4/Bard 1/Ultimate Magus 10 is a fun dual-progression arcane combination. I prefer Bard for the spontaneous Disguise Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell) metamagic, although Beguiler is a better choise if you want to focus on INT.

There are also the various Psionic dual casters (Psionics handles manifester level loss better than magic) along with some incarnum/caster and similar dual progression classes. Tome of Battle has some maneuver/caster progression classes as well - Ruby Knight Vindicator and Jade Phoenix Mage.

Tyndmyr
2010-12-21, 04:10 PM
I checked just now, it also requires Bardic Knowledge and 13 ranks in Perform (Stringed).

Well, I suppose you could dip bard for a level, MT sorc/cleric(early entry becomes frigging required for this. I'd suggest Sanctum Spell so you only need a level of each, despite the heavy cheese). When you've got the reqs for Sublime Chord, take a level of it, then MT sublime chord/cleric until you run out of levels for MT.

Possible. Not optimal, or easy, though.

Coidzor
2010-12-21, 04:22 PM
I can use Ur priest
Dual 9s, man, dual 9s.


Although a loser reading of the rules could read the clause: "This functions as bardic knowledge" as also meaning qualifying for PrC's.

*Looser. This is an important distinction. :smalleek:


For TO, and by RAW, yes. However, I have yet to see an actual GM allow this in any game. As he is asking for advice for an actual game, I would not want to suggest to him that any GM would accept that interpretation.

One shouldn't say that every DM will roll with it sure, but that's not what was said. Also, it would be a disservice to rule it out entirely from the information one makes available to a petitioner.

And it seems a bit of a double standard to say that no DM ever would allow something simply because you've never personally experienced it.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-21, 04:39 PM
There is the Geomancer, it kind of merges the best part of both classes together. That's sometimes a good class to take for an Arcane/Divine duel class.

One of the coolest things I did with my Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge/Geomancer was take Boars Ferocity. It allows you to continue fighting even while disabeled or dying. Then if you take enough damage to die, you cast Delay Death (an immediate action). You can then continue to fight normally even if you are at negative 5,000 hit points.

Eurus
2010-12-21, 04:42 PM
Doesn't Dweomerkeeper require some measure of both arcane and divine casting to qualify for? :smallamused:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-21, 04:47 PM
One shouldn't say that every DM will roll with it sure, but that's not what was said. Also, it would be a disservice to rule it out entirely from the information one makes available to a petitioner.

And it seems a bit of a double standard to say that no DM ever would allow something simply because you've never personally experienced it.

Double standard? No. Over twenty five years of gaming experience, both as a player and a GM? Yes. I've never once encountered a GM who allowed items to allow you to qualify for prerequisites in all my days as a gamer. Do they exist? Probably, somewhere. Odds are, however, most GM's won't let it fly.

Also, the phrase is not 'double standard', which would be the case if I said that I used it, then turned around and said that no GM would allow it. This is clearly not the case.

The phrase you are looking for is 'over-generalization', which may possibly be true, however with not only my experience, but that of the people whom I game with, both in person and online, that's quite a broad selection pool to at least state that the odds of his GM allowing it are less than optimistic. Heck, I don't think Test of Spite even allowed it, and there were some of the most rules-bending builds I've ever seen in there.

It should probably be listed under 'Your GM will probably throw a solid object at your head if you were to propose this, but it likely won't hurt (much) just to ask if he would allow this'.


There is the Geomancer, it kind of merges the best part of both classes together. That's sometimes a good class to take for an Arcane/Divine duel class.

One of the coolest things I did with my Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge/Geomancer was take Boars Ferocity. It allows you to continue fighting even while disabeled or dying. Then if you take enough damage to die, you cast Delay Death (an immediate action). You can then continue to fight normally even if you are at negative 5,000 hit points.

Geomancer is just about the most worthless excuse of a PrC I've ever seen. It requires dual-realm casting, but only advances a single side of casting. You can take an immediate action before the effects of having taken the damage affect you, thus you don' need boar's ferocity to cast Delay Death, assuming you haven't already persisted it upon yourself.

Coidzor
2010-12-21, 04:55 PM
Over twenty five years of gaming experience, both as a player and a GM? And how many years has 3rd edition been around?


Also, the phrase is not 'double standard', which would be the case if I said that I used it, then turned around and said that no GM would allow it. This is clearly not the case.

The phrase you are looking for is 'over-generalization', which may possibly be true, however with not only my experience, but that of the people whom I game with, both in person and online, that's quite a broad selection pool to at least state that the odds of his GM allowing it are less than optimistic.

Yeah, I'll give you that.


It should probably be listed under 'Your GM will probably throw a solid object at your head if you were to propose this, but it likely won't hurt (much) just to ask if he would allow this'.

If the GM's going to attack someone for proposing the idea to him, then the GM isn't worth spit. I can not understand what it is about the roleplaying tradition that simply accepts violence, hostility, and rudeness on the part of the person running the game as his right.

Godskook
2010-12-21, 07:14 PM
Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Heirophant 10 is good, both for dual spellcasting and for progressing all of your base class abilities. It's also fun to ride your animal companion/familiar around. You can take levels in Mystic Theurge if you prefer 9/9 spellcasting over your uberfamiliar.

Not legal. Try:

Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 2/AH 10

-or-

Druid 4/Wizard 3/AH 10

Depending on if you want 9ths or a better druid.


Wizard 4/Bard 1/Ultimate Magus 10 is a fun dual-progression arcane combination. I prefer Bard for the spontaneous Disguise Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell) metamagic, although Beguiler is a better choise if you want to focus on INT.

Note that Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) is so very tasty here.

gbprime
2010-12-21, 07:23 PM
Doesn't Dweomerkeeper require some measure of both arcane and divine casting to qualify for? :smallamused:

Dweomerkeeper requires a dip, not a dual advance. you either dip wizard for scribe scroll or you dip cloistered cleric for everything else. Then you single class your way to casting wishes and miracles free of XP. (Limited Wish is a heck of a utility spell when it costs no xp to throw...)

nedz
2010-12-21, 07:37 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought Foch. Lyr. required the evasion class feature?

Coidzor
2010-12-21, 07:41 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought Foch. Lyr. required the evasion class feature?

This just says the evasion ability. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2)

I'm-a go check my comp. adventurer though.

Edit: Yeah, says the same thing, just specifies the Evasion ability.

Thurbane
2010-12-21, 08:07 PM
Fochlucan Lyricist requires Language: Druidic, which won't be easy to get. Much easier will be the requirement for Evasion (which can be bought at sufficient wealth).

Edit: Spelling.
One very cheesy way to get Druidic is to be a Hellbred. The race says it "knows all languages from it's previous life"...you could always claim to have been a Druid in your previous incarnation. Wouldn't fly with most DMs, however.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-21, 08:08 PM
And how many years has 3rd edition been around? Honestly, I don't remember... probably about a decade or so. Back in the day, I was playing with the boxed set, as well as GURPS and a couple others.


If the GM's going to attack someone for proposing the idea to him, then the GM isn't worth spit. I can not understand what it is about the roleplaying tradition that simply accepts violence, hostility, and rudeness on the part of the person running the game as his right.

Pardon my metaphorical use and use of exaggeration for effect. Most GM's I know would not actually resort to physical violence, although they may be tempted to do so, and may not-seriously threaten such in a friendly manner.



This just says the evasion ability. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2)

I'm-a go check my comp. adventurer though.

Edit: Yeah, says the same thing, just specifies the Evasion ability.

However, a Ring of Evasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion) does not grant the Evaison ability. It just allows them to avoid damage on a sucessful save as though you had it.

nedz
2010-12-21, 08:13 PM
OK I was wrong there, however the Ring still doesn't work by RAW.

From:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion

Evasion

This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

My copy of the DMG says the same thing.

So the Ring does not grant you the evasion ability and therefore you do not qualify.

Ed: Damm Ninja Lawyers :smallsmile:

tyckspoon
2010-12-21, 08:39 PM
My copy of the DMG says the same thing.

So the Ring does not grant you the evasion ability and therefore you do not qualify.

Ed: Damm Ninja Lawyers :smallsmile:

*shrug* I'd say the ability to dodge damage on a successful Reflex save *is* the Evasion ability, but by RAW the argument seems correct.

Could go Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) -> Open Least Chakra (Feet), which specifically grants and refers back to Evasion; it even has a page reference to the Rogue class features. But then you're getting into a feat expenditure that you probably would rather use on other things, and working on the class so hard that you may well be better off just asking your DM to take Evasion off the pre-reqs. It doesn't make a lot of sense, since the stated purpose of the class is to blend the Druid and Bard and neither one has Evasion naturally.

Thurbane
2010-12-21, 08:42 PM
Fochlucan Lyricist is based off the old 1E version of the Bard, which required levels of RogueThief, Druid and Fighter to enter...the Evasion requirement is obviously a nod to this legacy.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-21, 08:53 PM
Fochlucan Lyricist is based off the old 1E version of the Bard, which required levels of Rogue, Druid and Fighter to enter...the Evasion requirement is obviously a nod to this legacy.

Most likely. And yea, 1E bard was flippin' scary... THACO like a Fighter, thief skills like a thief, a bit of druid casting, and the ability to use certain musical instruments which created some pretty devastating effects. It was likely the concept which gave birth to PrC's in the first place.

tyckspoon
2010-12-21, 08:59 PM
Fochlucan Lyricist is based off the old 1E version of the Bard, which required levels of Rogue, Druid and Fighter to enter...the Evasion requirement is obviously a nod to this legacy.

Poor design for that goal. Should have made it require Evasion/Speak Druidic and then grant Bardic Music when you entered, instead of already requiring Bardic Music.. replicating the 1E Bard is a little pointless when you already have a Bard base class. ('tho if we're gonna talk about poorly designed PrCs we'll be here all night.. and I had been wondering where the full BAB progression came from.)

Thurbane
2010-12-21, 09:09 PM
Poor design for that goal. Should have made it require Evasion/Speak Druidic and then grant Bardic Music when you entered, instead of already requiring Bardic Music.. replicating the 1E Bard is a little pointless when you already have a Bard base class. ('tho if we're gonna talk about poorly designed PrCs we'll be here all night.. and I had been wondering where the full BAB progression came from.)
Agreed...looks like they tried to add 3.5 Bard to the req mix to make it a "Bard PrC". I kinda like the PrC from a nostalgia POV, but yeah, it's internal logic is a little wierd.