Jade Phoenix Mage optimization

[Mad Wizard]

I'm creating a 1st level character that will eventually become a Jade Phoenix mage, but I'm not entirely sure how to go about it. I'd like to go wizard/warblade/JPM, but is it best to start with Wizard or to start with Warblade? In fact, is it best to skip the Warblade altogether and just take Martial Stance and Martial Study? The latter seems like it would use up a lot of feats, but is it worth it for the extra caster level?

Basically all 3.5 books are open to me. 32 point buy, no flaws, no Precocious Apprentice for early PrC entry (although it doesn't seem like that would be worth it, anyway).

[Darrin]

I'm creating a 1st level character that will eventually become a Jade Phoenix mage, but I'm not entirely sure how to go about it. I'd like to go wizard/warblade/JPM, but is it best to start with Wizard or to start with Warblade? In fact, is it best to skip the Warblade altogether and just take Martial Stance and Martial Study? The latter seems like it would use up a lot of feats, but is it worth it for the extra caster level?

Basically all 3.5 books are open to me. 32 point buy, no flaws, no Precocious Apprentice for early PrC entry (although it doesn't seem like that would be worth it, anyway).

Wizard + Warblade (Int synergy) or Crusader + Sorcerer (Cha synergy) work best. And yes, you want at least one level of Warblade or Crusader so you have a recovery mechanic to get maneuvers back. If you go the Martial Study/Stance route, you can only use a maneuver once per encounter, and there's no easy way to recover them during combat.

Are you trying to keep 9th level spells? If so, then you're probably limited to one level of Warblade or Crusader. JPM loses two caster levels, Warblade is another lost caster level, so your basic Warblade build would look something like:

Wizard 5/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4

Crusader is trickier, since Sorcerers get 9th level spells one ECL later than wizards, but you can get that caster level back with a kobold + Greater Rite of Draconic Passage:

Sorcerer 5/Crusader 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4

Actually, a Cha-based JPM is easier to pull off with a Bard + Sublime Chord:

Bard 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Something +1/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM +9

I'm not sure there's any orthodox advice on whether you take your spellcaster levels or martial adept levels first. A Warblade or Crusader that takes spellcaster levels tends to have much higher survival chances than a straight low-level spellcaster. However, delaying that Warblade or Crusader level until at least ECL 5 will give you access to 2nd level maneuvers (you won't have a lot of opportunities to get more or swap them for better maneuvers).

If you're not trying to keep 9th level spells, then basic entry is much simpler:

Wizard 3/Warblade 3/JPM 10/Something +4
Sorcerer 4/Crusader 2/JPM 10/Something +4

You mentioned you don't want to use Precocious Apprentice. Any objection to Versatile Spellcasting, Sanctum Spell, or Improved Sigil: Krau?

[DeltaEmil]

The problem with taking the feats for the maneuver is that you'd lack the recharging mechanics to use them more than once per combat, should you really now wish to use maneuver xyz again, because it would really suit the situation.

Also, full caster levels are as always inherently superior to martial adepts, and being able to cast whatever spells needed soon enough is why mystic theurge is so bad (you get the good spells a lot later than somebody sticking to mono-full-caster progression).

You should only take the feats instead of one martial adept level when you're sure that combat in your game doesn't take too many rounds, or when the spells are really just there to fuel the maneuvers and special abilities of the prestige class for cool flashy effects (absolutely valable reason).

[Akal Saris]

I'd start with the warblade level for the following reasons:

1. Max hit points at 1st level - max of 12 is more than max of 4.
2. Max skills at 1st level - 4xInt is better than 2xInt
3. A 1st level warblade is a lot more fun than a 1st level wizard.

Yes, you lose out on starting with 2nd level maneuvers, but there are good 1st level maneuvers for you to take anyhow.

[Mad Wizard]

You mentioned you don't want to use Precocious Apprentice. Any objection to Versatile Spellcasting, Sanctum Spell, or Improved Sigil: Krau?

I'd actually never heard of these being used for early entry before, but after reading them I think I've figured it out. I doubt my DM would allow any of these, either. If anything, these seem LESS legit than Precocious apprentice.

Thanks for all the help, btw.

[Darrin]

I'd actually never heard of these being used for early entry before, but after reading them I think I've figured it out. I doubt my DM would allow any of these, either. If anything, these seem LESS legit than Precocious apprentice.


Heh. Actually, the other three methods are much more solid by RAW (Rules As Written) than Precocious Apprentice, which gets the lion's share of heated rules discussions (it's worded very poorly, and not only did the designer not anticipate how it could be abused, his "spells = plural" argument is really, really weak).

General advice for a Wizard 5/Warblade 1 or Warblade 1/Wizard 5:

Consider trading your familiar for the Abrupt Jaunt ACF (PHBII). Just too darned useful. Jump behind cover, avoid charging opponents/traps/grapples, and use it as a mini-Travel devotion or mini-Pounce: jump 10', charge 10'.

Race:
Human, Silverbrow Human, Azurin, or Strongheart Halfling
You're going to need that bonus feat.

Elves help a little bit with the whole sword/bow proficiency thing (Warblades aren't proficient with any non-throwable ranged weapons), particularly if you start as a wizard, but the Con penalty hurts your HP (and you're going to be pretty thin on HP) and Concentration checks, which gets used a lot with Diamond Mind maneuvers. You can shift the Con penalty to Str with Arctic Elf or Desert Elf (Unearthed Arcana) or Cha with Frost Elf (Frostburn, recommended). The Arctic template (Dragon #306) can also be used for +2 Con/-2 Cha, and the Magic-Blooded template (same article) can shift the Cha penalty over to Wis (both templates are LA +0). Elves can use Improved Weapon Familiarity (Races of Stone) to treat Elven Courtblades as martial weapons (1d10 damage, 18-20/x2, two-handed finessable weapon). They also qualify for the Eternal Blade PrC, if you want to go that route. Elf Generalist Wizard substitution levels (Races of the Wild) can provide a bonus spell slot and a ranged-combat-related bonus feat at 5th level.

Azurin is nice for the 1 point of essentia, which you can use with Midnight Metamagic and maybe Bonus Essentia feat for some low-level metamagic reduction. Or you could pick up Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt), which gives a +4 morale bonus on on Constitution-related checks (including Concentration), and +2 HP/essentia.

Neraph (Planar Handbook) can help with getting all martial weapon proficiencies (they're native outsiders) without spending any feats, particularly if you're trying to get into Spellsword. Savage Progression Tiefling (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) also counts as an outsider, and gets +2 Dex/-2 Cha. Lesser Tiefling (Player's Guide to Faerun) isn't an outsider, but gets +2 Dex/+2 Int/-2 Cha for LA +0.

Weapons:
Start with a guisarme (reach attack, step back 5') until you're ready to stand toe-to-toe in melee, then switch to a greatsword (or some other two-handed weapon). This means you can let go with one hand as a free action to take care of somatic gestures. Avoid TWF, it costs too many feats to do well, and freeing up a hand for somatic gestures is tricky... it is possible, but probably not worth the effort. If you want to TWF, then use a two-handed weapon + armor spikes. Two-handed weapons are much easier to optimize for damage: take Power Attack and you're pretty much done.

Also, the greatsword is one of the best weapons for the Aura of Chaos stance (reroll 1's on damage), which is almost worth going into JPM all by itself. You can get Aura of Chaos at ECL 15 with Martial Stance.

Simple Wizard ACF (Unearthed Arcana), also called the Martial Wizard ACF. Trade your scribe scroll feat and your 5th level bonus feat for fighter bonus feats. You'll pay more for scrolls and picking up metamagic feats is a little tougher, but you're not quite so starved for melee feats.

Domain Wizard ACF (Complete Champion) or Planar Touchstone (Planar Handbook). The ACF lets you swap your 5th level wizard bonus feat for a domain power. If it's the war domain, you get a two-for-one deal: Martial/Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and Weapon Focus. You can also pick up a domain power with the Planar Touchstone feat, linked to the Catalogues of Enlightenment (note: you do *not* have to visit the touchstone site to get the base ability). Check this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9236967&postcount=3) for a list of exotic weapon proficiencies you can get this way.

Master's Touch (Spell Compendium). This is a 1st-level swift-action spell, and the duration (1 min/level) is long enough that it can probably help you avoid spending a feat on Martial/Exotic Weapon Proficiency until you get into Warblade or pick it up as a bonus feat later.

Armor:
You'll probably have to stick with mage armor and shield until you can afford a mithral chain shirt. If an armor has an ACP of 0 (or you can reduce it to zero), you can wear it without armor proficiency and take no penalties. You still have to deal with ASF, and that's a little more expensive to reduce.

Reducing ACP:
Mithral reduces ACP by 3. +1000 GP for light armor, +4000 for medium.
Darkleaf reduces ACP by 2 Races of the Wild, Eberron Campaign Setting). It's not masterwork by default, though, so you can add that to reduce ACP by 1 more (same as mithral). +750 GP for light armor, +2250 GP for medium (almost half the cost of mithral!)
Nimbleness (MIC) reduces ACP by 2, and increases Max Dex by 1. +1 enhancement.
Hellforged template (DMGII) reduces ACP by 1, but also reduces Max Dex by 1. +1000 GP.

Reducing ASF:
Blended Quartz, -20% (Arms & Equipment Guide).
Mithral, -10% (Core). +1000/+4000/+9000 GP.
Twilight, -10% (MIC, PHBII, a bunch of other sources). +1 enhancement.
Spellsword dip, -10%. Requires BAB +4, 2nd level spells, proficiency with all martial weapons and all armors.
Thistledown suit, -5% (Races of the Wild). Only works with certain armor.
Feycraft, -5% (DMGII). +500 GP. Only works with light/medium armor or wooden shields.
Githcraft, -5% (DMGII). +600 GP. Works with any armor or shield, also +1 untyped bonus on Concentration checks.

Some low-cost armors for gishes:

Githcraft Masterwork Cord Armor. AB +2, MDB +5, ACP 0, ASF 0%.
Price: 765 GP

Githcraft Thistledown Mithral Chain Shirt. AB +4, MDB +6, ACP 0, ASF 0%.
Price: 1950 GP

Githcraft Masterwork Buckler/Light Wooden Shield. SB +1, ACP 0, ASF 0%.
Price: 765 GP/753 GP

Githcraft Masterwork Dastana. AB +1, ACP 0, ASF 0%.
Price: 775 GP

Githcraft Masterwork Chahar-Aina. AB +1, ACP 0, ASF 0%.
Price: 825 GP

These last two are from Oriental Adventures (the Dastana is also in the Arms & Equipment Guide), and they provide a bonus that stacks with certain base armors, such as a chain shirt. The chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina combo actually provides better protection (+6 AC) than a breastplate (+5 AC). However, check if your DM allows them, as there are some that ban them outright or may have additional restrictions.

Oh, make sure you add wand chambers (+100 GP, Dungeonscape) to all your weapons and shields, and load them with swift- and immediate-action wands.

Also note, the +1 bonus on Concentration checks from githcraft is untyped, so it stacks with itself. Githcraft chain shirt + dastana + chahar-aina + two bucklers = +5 bonus on Concentration checks.

Maneuvers/Stances:

Take Punishing Stance. Your greatsword damage goes from 2d6 to 3d6. Chalk up the AC penalty to "The best defense is a good offense" or "You have infinite AC against an enemy you killed 3 rounds ago." (Leading the Charge is also really, really nice, and the damage scales up as your IL increases, but works best if you have lots of allies charging or a reliable way to charge+pounce several rounds in a row.)

Three Warblade maneuvers isn't a lot to work with, but if I could only pick three:

Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind 1). Your wizard levels give you a decent will save to start with, but it slows down quite a bit after that. Concentration checks are much easier to optimize, and you don't autofail on a 1.

Steel Wind (Iron Heart 1). Move + attack two different opponents at full BAB. Works well with Greatsword + Power Attack, and remains useful for a long while, even after you get BAB +6 or higher.

Charging Minotaur (Stone Dragon 1). Charge + Bull Rush, but no AoOs, you get 2d6 + Str bludgeoning damage, and you may push your opponent out of melee range.

There are several other 1st-level maneuvers that are just as good:

Stone Bones (Stone Dragon 1). DR 5/adamantine for 1 round. Great protection for low-levels (particularly for gishes a little light on HP), but not so useful at higher levels.

Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw 1). Basically TWF-in-a-box. There are some quirks, to it, though. The -2 penalty on your attacks supercedes the normal TWF penalties, so you don't need the TWF feat, and you can do odd things like TWF with a one-handed weapon in your off-hand (still with only a -2 penalty). Works well with greatsword + armor spikes.

Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1). One of my absolute favorites! Free movement with a swift action and a jump check! Unfortunately, it requires one Tiger Claw maneuver as a prereq, and it's difficult to maximize your Jump ranks with all those wizard levels. However, if you'd rather take this than Charging Minotaur, consider switching your stance to Hunter's Sense or Blood in the Water. You could also pick up some novice Tiger Claw Bracers (3000 GP) before you take your Warblade level and meet the prereq that way, or pick it up with Tiger Claw Bracers + Martial Study (Note: once you learn a maneuver, you keep it even if you lose the prereqs.)

Douse the Flames (White Raven 1). One hit shuts down pretty much any reach/lockdown build. Makes movement, positioning, and flanking easier on the battlefield.

Leading the Attack (White Raven 1). +4 morale bonus on all attacks for your allies for 1 round. Great if you've got other melee characters, and even better if you've got non-melee characters trying to contribute with slings/crossbows.

If you take your first Warblade level at ECL 5 or higher, I recommend:

Punishing Stance. You have to choose a 1st-level stance by RAW, but you can now pick up 2nd level maneuvers.

Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon 2). The ultimate DR/? can opener and dungeon redecorating tool. Ignores both hardness and DR, plus 2d6 extra damage on top of that. Outside of combat, you can cut through doors/walls, dig tunnels, etc. If you take Warblade early, get ahold of a novice Stone Dragon Belt (3000 GP) ASAP.

Emerald Razor (Diamond Mind 2). Touch attack + Power Attack = severe ouchness.

Wall of Blades (Iron Heart 2). Replace your AC with an attack roll. I'm not quite sure if this is better than Moment of Perfect Mind, but if you're happy with your Will save, consider taking this instead.

Battle Leader's Charge (White Raven 2). Charge without AoOs, +10 damage (which multiplies with Power Attack, crits, etc.). Fantastic maneuver if you can get Pounce.

[Mad Wizard]

All excellent information. Thanks, I think I have a good idea of what to do now.

[dbauers]

Wizard + Warblade (Int synergy) or Crusader + Sorcerer (Cha synergy) work best. And yes, you want at least one level of Warblade or Crusader so you have a recovery mechanic to get maneuvers back. If you go the Martial Study/Stance route, you can only use a maneuver once per encounter, and there's no easy way to recover them during combat.

Are you trying to keep 9th level spells? If so, then you're probably limited to one level of Warblade or Crusader. JPM loses two caster levels, Warblade is another lost caster level, so your basic Warblade build would look something like:

Wizard 5/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4

Crusader is trickier, since Sorcerers get 9th level spells one ECL later than wizards, but you can get that caster level back with a kobold + Greater Rite of Draconic Passage:

Sorcerer 5/Crusader 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4

Actually, a Cha-based JPM is easier to pull off with a Bard + Sublime Chord:

Bard 4/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Something +1/JPM 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM +9

I'm not sure there's any orthodox advice on whether you take your spellcaster levels or martial adept levels first. A Warblade or Crusader that takes spellcaster levels tends to have much higher survival chances than a straight low-level spellcaster. However, delaying that Warblade or Crusader level until at least ECL 5 will give you access to 2nd level maneuvers (you won't have a lot of opportunities to get more or swap them for better maneuvers).

If you're not trying to keep 9th level spells, then basic entry is much simpler:

Wizard 3/Warblade 3/JPM 10/Something +4
Sorcerer 4/Crusader 2/JPM 10/Something +4

You mentioned you don't want to use Precocious Apprentice. Any objection to Versatile Spellcasting, Sanctum Spell, or Improved Sigil: Krau?

if you did want 9th level spells and are only taking a 1-level martial adept dip, why does it matter what the main "stat" for that class is? if you go level 1 warblade you'll only get a +1 to reflex, regardless of what your int is, and if you go level 1 crusader, there are no Cha-based abilities until level 2 anyhow....

[Darrin]

if you did want 9th level spells and are only taking a 1-level martial adept dip, why does it matter what the main "stat" for that class is? if you go level 1 warblade you'll only get a +1 to reflex, regardless of what your int is, and if you go level 1 crusader, there are no Cha-based abilities until level 2 anyhow....

You're correct. Even with a 2- or 3-level dip, the Int/Cha synergy is minimal. A low-Int/high-Cha Warblade (generally more popular than the Crusader) isn't all that functionally different from a high-Int/low-Cha Warblade.

Actually, for a Crusader, Indomitable Soul (add Cha bonus to Will saves) and Smite (add Cha bonus to damage) are the only two class abilities that use Charisma.

The Warblade's Int bonus gets used at 1st (Ref saves, capped by WB level), 3rd (confirm crits), 7th (flanking damage), 11th (resist bull rush/trip/disarm/sunder/overrun), and 15th (AoO damage). The extra skill points from high Int certainly helps keep skills like Concentration, Jump, and Tumble topped off.

[O_Y]

I've had my best luck with Crusader/Wizard entry to JPM (it's one of the classes that turns up on about half my character sheets when the book's allowed).

Crusader has a few edges on Warblade for a Wizard JPM:
The big one is the recovery mechanic. Warblade recovery competes for actions with spellcasting, boosts, maneuvers and Arcane Wrath.
Longbow proficiencies, Furious counterstrike and Devoted Spirit access damatically improve low-level survivability - one of the biggest hurdles for Gish builds.
Devoted Spirit access allows more consistent access to high-level maneuvers (no jumping through hoops for prerequisites during JPM levels).
Full Weapon/Armor proficiencies help with entry to other Gish classes (Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, Knight Phantom, Runesmith).


JPM's good Reflex save, on top of Devoted Spirit Maneuvers, higher-level Resistance spells and the usual wizard defenses, make the Warblade's Reflex bonus kind of superfluous, IME. Especially without evasion.