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Rumel
2010-12-21, 04:37 AM
Guard 1: "Look at all this treasure!"
Guard 2: "I know, do you think anyone would notice if we take a few peices?"
Guard 1: "Hmm... maybe. Let's try it out" *grabs a handfull of gold*

*Whish... pop!* *Whish... pop!* *Whish... pop!*

Guard 1: "What happened to the lights?"

*Whish!*... *plop*

Guard 1: "AHHH!!! MY HAND!!!

*Whish! Whish! Whish!*... *Thud*

Guard 2: "PAUL!!! I GOTTA GET OUT OF HERE!!!" *runs down hall*

*Twirl! Twirl! Twirl!... Whish*

Guard 2: "Ugh..." *Thud!* "What? Somethings got my leg!!!"

*man being dragged into shadows*... *CHING...*

Guard 2: Wh... Who are you?"

*SLICE!*... *footsteps towards the chest... Man runs away, leaping from roof to roof...*
__________________________________________________ _______________

Here is my version of what I believe the ninja should be... and a new weapon!

Hit Die: d6

Class:
{table=head] Level|BaB|Fort|Ref|Will|AC Bonus|Speed Bonus|Special

1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|+0|+0ft|Sudden Strike 1d6, Ki Power, Trapfinding

2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|+0|+0ft|Shuriken Mastery, Ghost Step (Invisible)

3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|+0|+0ft|Sudden Strike 2d6, Poison Use, Speed Climb

4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|+1|+10ft|Great Leap, Hide in Partial Sight

5th|+3|+2|+4|+2|+1|+10ft|Sudden Strike 3d6, Spring Attack

6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|+1|+10ft|Acrobatics +2, Ki Dodge, Snatch Arrows

7th|+5|+3|+5|+3|+1|+10ft|Sudden Strike 4d6, Cling

8th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|+2|+20ft|Ghost Strike, Manyshot

9th|+6/+1|+4|+6|+4|+2|+20ft|Sudden Strike 5d6, Improved Poison Use

10th|+7/+2|+4|+7|+4|+2|+20ft|Ghost Step (Ethereal), Hide in Plain Sight

11th|+8/+3|+5|+7|+5|+2|+20ft|Sudden Strike 6d6, Shadow Attack

12th|+9/+4|+5|+8|+5|+3|+30ft|Acrobatics +4, Evasion

13th|+9/+4|+6|+8|+6|+3|+30ft|Sudden Strike 7d6, Speed of the Shadows

14th|+10/+5|+6|+9|+6|+3|+30ft|Ghost Mind, Counter-Block

15th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+9|+7|+3|+30ft|Sudden Strike 8d6, Silence

16th|+12/+7/+2|+7|+10|+7|+4|+40ft|Ghost Sight, Sneaky Counter

17th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+10|+8|+4|+40ft|Sudden Strike 9d6, Deadly Accuracy

18th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+11|+8|+4|+40ft|Acrobatics +6, Greater Ki Dodge

19th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+11|+9|+4|+40ft|Sudden Strike 10d6, Improved Evasion

20th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+12|+9|+5|+50ft|Ghost Walk, Unseen

[/table]
Skill Points:8+Int mod (*4 at 1st level)

Class Skills: The Ninja's class skills (and the key ability for each) are... Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disquise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Slieght of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex)

Class Features: The Ninja's class features are...

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Ninja is proficient with all Simple weapons plus the Hand Crossbow, Kama, Kukri, Nunchaku, Sai, Shortbow, Shortsword, Shuriken and Siangham. Ninjas are not proficient with any types of armor or shields.

AC Bonus: A ninja gains a bonus to his AC equal to 1/4 it's class levels rounded down. It also gains a bonus to AC equal to his Wis mod. Both apply to touch AC and are retained even when flat-footed. This ability is stopped if the Ninja is wearing any armor or holding more than a Medium load

Sudden Strike: Read the Sneak attack ability of the Rogue in the SRD.

Ki Power (SU): The Ninja gains a number of Ki uses a day equal to 1/2 his class levels + his Wis mod. They may be used on any of his Ki abilities (explained later). If the Ninja has any Ki uses left in his supply at any time, he gains a +2 on Will saves. This ability is lost if the Ninja wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Trapfinding: A Ninja may use his Search skill to find traps with a DC of over 20, and may also disable the trap.

Shuriken Mastery: The Ninja is more skilled with the shuriken then most. When used by the Ninja, the damage becomes equal to a dagger of appropriate size. It has a 50% chance to not be destroyed after hitting it's target and a bonus on the roll equal to his class levels in ninja (they are never destroyed if they miss their target). Its Threat range and Crit multiplier goes up by one step (19-20 to 18-20, x2 to x3). The Ninja may make a number of attacks as if it were a melee weapon (so at +7 BaB it has 2 attacks, if two weapon fighting, 3 attacks).

Ghost Step (Invisible): A Ninja may use one use of his Ki abilities to become invisible. This is a Standard action that does not provoke an AoO. It lasts for one round.

Poison Use: A Ninja may apply poison to a weapon without risking poisoning himself in the process.

Speed Climb: The Ninja may climb any surface as long as he ends on a surface he could normally stand on. He may go up any wall up to his Base Land Speed, and may transition from land to wall with ease (so a Ninja with a BLS of 50ft may start 10ft from a wall, climb 30ft and go 10ft on the roof without a problem). He cannot climb a wall slicked or icy in any way to prevent others from climbing on it. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Great Leap: The Ninja may jump after standing still as if he had a running start with the run feat (effectivly a +4 bonus). A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load

Hide in Plain Sight: See the SRD ability of the same name... A Ninja loses this ability if wearing any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Spring Attack: The Ninja gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the preresiquites.

Acrobatics +2: A Ninja gains a +2 bonus to Jump, Tumble, and Climb checks, and may also automatically succeeds on all non-epic uses of the Balance Skill. The Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load

Ki Dodge: A Ninja may choose to use on use of it's Ki powers to grant him Concealment (a 20% miss chance) against all attacks. This is a Swift action that does not provoke an AoO and lasts for 1 round after activated.

Snatch Arrows: A Ninja gains Snatch Arrows as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the preresiquites.

Cling: A Ninja may now stick to any wall he may climb up useing his Speed Climb ability. While on the wall the Ninja may do anything he could while standing (including throw his shurikens). Though he may cling to walls, he may not cling to cielings, but he may hide in corners in the room. He may now run on the wall with ease. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a Medium load.

Ghost Strike: A Ninja may use one of his Ki powers to hit Ethereal creatures. Activating this ability is a Swift acion that lasts for 1 round.

Manyshot: The Ninja gains Manyshot as a bonus feat even if he doesn't meet the preresiquites.

Improved Poison Use: A Ninja may apply poison to a weapon as a Standered action instead of a Full-Round action.

Ghost Step (Ethereal): A Ninja becomes ethereal instead of invisible, while useing his Ghost Step Ki power.

Snatch Blade: A Ninja may snatch an enemy's blade in mid-swing as if it were an arrow, and that enemy's turn then ends. When your turn begins, you must let go of the weapon and move to the side or the enemy gains an AoO against the Ninja. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Shadow Attack: When a Ninja attacks from a shadow and attempts to hide after, he does not take the regular -10 penalty, and may use the Full-Attack option during the attack. Also, he may leap from the shadows to melee attack an enemy useing the Spring attack feat and may leap into the same or a different shadow. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Acrobatics +4: A Ninja now gains a +4 bonus to Climb, Tumble and Jump check, and takes less falling damage equal to 1/2 his class level x 10ft. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Evasion: A Ninja gains the Evasion ability from the SRD... A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Speed of Shadows: A Ninja may move up to his normal speed without a penalty to his hide check, while in the shadows. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Ghost Mind: Any Scrying spells cast upon the Ninja must succeed on a Caster Level check equal to 20+the Ninja's class levels. Any Scrying spell that scans an area that fails the check works on the area, but simply does not detect the Ninja.

Counter-Block: A Ninja that Snatches an arrow or blade may make an AoO against the enemy. If he snatched an arrow, he may either shoot it back, or throw his own projectile. If he catches a blade, he may use it against his foe, or use his own weapons in the attack. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Silince: A Ninja automatically succeeds on all Move Silently checks, unless the creature is speccifically listening for you (or simply listening hard), but you gain a bonus equal to your class level on your Move Silently check. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Ghost Sight: A Ninja can see Invisible or Ethereal creatures as easily as he can material plane creatures.

Sneaky-Counter: A Ninja deals Sudden Strike damage on his Counter-Block attempts. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Deadly Accuracy: Any time a Ninja attacks a creature unaware of his presence (not flat-footed) he automatically threatens a Critical. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Acrobatics +6: A Ninja now gains a +6 bonus to Tumble, Jump and Climb checks and may take 10 on all Str & Dex checks, that are class sklls of the Ninja. A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Greater Ki Dodge: Now the Ki Dodge ability grants total concealment
(50% miss chance)

Improved Evasion: A Ninja gains Improves Evasion as the SRD ability... A Ninja loses this ability if he wears any armor or carries more than a medium load.

Ghost Walk: By spending two uses of the Ki power an Ninja may stay in the Ethereal plane for an extended period of time. It effectivly casts the Ethereal Jount spell with a Caster Level equal to the Ninja's class levels.

Unseen: A Ninja automatically succeeds on all Hide checks on creatures unaware of the ninja, but if a creature is specifically looking for a person (such as a guard on duty) the Ninja only gains a bonus on his Hide check equal to his class level.

Comments:
Realised how horribly underpowered the Ninja class was. I included abilities for the shadow stalking type.

Rumel
2010-12-21, 04:46 AM
New Weapon...

Twirling Kukri: A chain with a Kukri at the end... it is a reach weapon that deals Slashing damage, and may make trip attempts, as a whip. It deals 1d6 damage as a medium sized weapon. If the wielder succeeds on a trip attempt, he may attempt a grapple attempt to wrap the chain around the enemy's leg and may drag the creature towards you by succeeding on another grapple check. If you succeed the creature is prone at your feet.

Weapon|Cost|Small Damage|Medium Damage|Weight|Range|Critical

Kusarigama|50Gp|1d4|1d6|5lb.|10x10|19-20/x3



New Feats...

Skillfull Grappler: you may use your Dex mod instead of your Str while grappleing

Dextrious Acrobat: You may replace your Dex mod for your Str for the skills Climb, Swim, and Jump.

Antonok
2010-12-21, 08:51 AM
New Weapon...

Twirling Kukri: A chain with a Kukri at the end... it is a reach weapon that deals Slashing damage, and may make trip attempts, as a whip. It deals 1d6 damage as a medium sized weapon. If the wielder succeeds on a trip attempt, he may attempt a grapple attempt to wrap the chain around the enemy's leg and may drag the creature towards you by succeeding on another grapple check. If you succeed the creature is prone at your feet.

Weapon|Cost|Small Damage|Medium Damage|Weight|Range

Twirling Kukri|50Gp|1d4|1d6|5lb.|10x10



New Feats...


Theres an actual japanese ninja weapon called the Kusarigama which is basically the same thing except instead of a kukri it was a kama.

Also a friend of mine made a japanese dnd setting and came up with stats based off Shredders armor from Ninja Turtles that helped ninjas gameplay wise you might br interested in.

Armor|Cost|Ar. Bonus|Max Dex|Check Penelty|Spell Failure|Weight

Ninja Gi|10gp|+2|+6|-0|10%|10lbs


*Speed is as any light armor.

Ninja Gi- This armor is a set of padded clothing that Ninjas are specially trained in wearing. As such, they can wear this armor without losing any class features.

We also came up with a few extras you could buy with it like little spikes that gave a +2 to climb checks, arm blades, etc. Its not the exact thing we were using since I lost the setting document I had, but its pretty close.


As far as the revisions to the class, the biggest thing I see is the Hide in Plain Sight ability. Earliest I know of that you can get that is like 7th level, and I've only ever found it in PrCs.

AyeGill
2010-12-21, 09:30 AM
I like it. one thing though, your bad saves are wrong, they should end at +6

Rumel
2010-12-21, 12:12 PM
I like it. one thing though, your bad saves are wrong, they should end at +6

They're not bad saves, but these are the medium saves someone invented... i felt the Ninja should be better at defending himself than +6 at level 20.

Rumel
2010-12-21, 12:16 PM
Theres an actual japanese ninja weapon called the Kusarigama which is basically the same thing except instead of a kukri it was a kama.

Also a friend of mine made a japanese dnd setting and came up with stats based off Shredders armor from Ninja Turtles that helped ninjas gameplay wise you might br interested in.

Armor|Cost|Ar. Bonus|Max Dex|Check Penelty|Spell Failure|Weight

Ninja Gi|10gp|+2|+6|-0|10%|10lbs


*Speed is as any light armor.

Ninja Gi- This armor is a set of padded clothing that Ninjas are specially trained in wearing. As such, they can wear this armor without losing any class features.

We also came up with a few extras you could buy with it like little spikes that gave a +2 to climb checks, arm blades, etc. Its not the exact thing we were using since I lost the setting document I had, but its pretty close.


As far as the revisions to the class, the biggest thing I see is the Hide in Plain Sight ability. Earliest I know of that you can get that is like 7th level, and I've only ever found it in PrCs.

Ill think about that weapon. Those +2 objects are 55 Gp and personalizable, you don't need a class bonus. Also, I felt (Sinsce they pretty much invented it) A Ninja could get it sooner... It's just a Hide check oppertunity, i felt it was an ok bonus.

nonsi
2010-12-21, 02:11 PM
Description for Speed of the Shadows is missing.

Rumel
2010-12-21, 02:15 PM
Description for Speed of the Shadows is missing.

What? It says "you may move your normal speed while in the shadows without a penalty to hide"

Nopraptor
2010-12-21, 03:55 PM
Ahhh ninjas always bring me a good fuzzy nostalgic feeling, my first charecter was a ninja. I didnt feel the underpowerdness but I still like what youve done, good job :smallbiggrin:

Rumel
2010-12-21, 04:07 PM
Ahhh ninjas always bring me a good fuzzy nostalgic feeling, my first charecter was a ninja. I didnt feel the underpowerdness but I still like what youve done, good job :smallbiggrin:

Thank you! You have no idea how nice it is to make a homebrew idea without an army of people posting lists of every detail they don't like!

Moribundus
2010-12-21, 07:30 PM
I rarely post anything on these forums, but this has brought me out of the shadows.

buwhahahahah



For starters, I think this class is a bit overpowered in a general sort of way. Ninjas previously sucked, and with yours it is swish swish you're dead.

Which is excellent, and exactly as it should be; finally.
The invisibility/etherealness is a very nice touch.

My only real criticism is about the skill point distribution. I don't think they should get the full +8. I would move it down to a +6, so they're still monkeys but not full on rogue. They already have trapfinding, sneak attack (suddenstrike) evasion and a whole host of nifty abilities.

Rumel
2010-12-21, 08:10 PM
I rarely post anything on these forums, but this has brought me out of the shadows.

buwhahahahah



For starters, I think this class is a bit overpowered in a general sort of way. Ninjas previously sucked, and with yours it is swish swish you're dead.

Which is excellent, and exactly as it should be; finally.
The invisibility/etherealness is a very nice touch.

My only real criticism is about the skill point distribution. I don't think they should get the full +8. I would move it down to a +6, so they're still monkeys but not full on rogue. They already have trapfinding, sneak attack (suddenstrike) evasion and a whole host of nifty abilities.

They're not that overpowered... When up against a creature immune to sneak attack, they deal about 1d6+5 shuriken damage... But, I might change the skills to +6?

firemagehao
2010-12-21, 08:26 PM
They're not that overpowered... When up against a creature immune to sneak attack, they deal about 1d6+5 shuriken damage... But, I might change the skills to +6?

Is that 1d6+5 damage before manyshot (at max BAB, 4 attacks) and all the poison damage? That would be 12d6 Con, which is, on average, 42. How would that not kill most anything?

Rumel
2010-12-21, 08:31 PM
Is that 1d6+5 damage before manyshot (at max BAB, 4 attacks) and all the poison damage? That would be 12d6 Con, which is, on average, 42. How would that not kill most anything?

Manyshot allows for bassically two-weapon Fighting for arrows, not that bad. Poison, any DM can say "oh, by the way it's a construct"

Temotei
2010-12-21, 08:40 PM
Poison, any DM can say "oh, by the way it's a construct"

That's not a good balance point. Relying on the DM to make everything immune to a ninja's class features when it's too powerful is not the way to make a class. If something is too powerful, you fix the class; you don't assume the DM will change encounters.

Well, you do in this case, I guess, but it's not a good idea when making homebrew.

Note that I haven't read any of the class yet.

mootoall
2010-12-21, 08:42 PM
Hide in Plain Sight at 4th level is just ... no. You might make a scaling ability that gives them a bonus to hide check in shadowy illumination without need for cover, but don't give them HiPS until at least 7th. Seriously, that's just ... unbalancing.

Lateral
2010-12-21, 08:44 PM
Is that 1d6+5 damage before manyshot (at max BAB, 4 attacks) and all the poison damage? That would be 12d6 Con, which is, on average, 42. How would that not kill most anything?

He still has to be able to afford 4 doses of Black Lotus poison. You'd have the same deal with anything, it's not a CF problem.

Moribundus
2010-12-21, 09:04 PM
Hide in Plain Sight at 4th level is just ... no. You might make a scaling ability that gives them a bonus to hide check in shadowy illumination without need for cover, but don't give them HiPS until at least 7th. Seriously, that's just ... unbalancing.

I disagree, but I do understand where you are coming from. The thing is, I think a ninja should be able to hide in plain sight. Maybe make it an opposed bluff check made in secret by the DM or something like that? If the ninja fails he can try to hide, but at a disadvantage (say -10?) and then at a higher level(10-13th?) this would disappear and HiPS would act as normal.

Glimbur
2010-12-22, 01:01 AM
It still has the base ninja problem of a low AC. Wis to AC is just not as much as actual armor.

Shuriken Mastery is cute at best. Is the "bonus on the roll" a bonus to hit or damage?

Ghost Step(Invisible) needs to be a swift action. That's all there is to it, in its present form it is nearly useless.

Speed Climb is useful, but needs more specificity on what kind of wall cannot be climbed. You might be better served by setting a climb DC which separates walls which can be climbed this way from walls which cannot.

Hide in Plain Sight can be annoying to fight against. Whatever.

Acrobatics... automatically succeeding on skill checks is a bad precedent but it is not a big deal for Balance.

Ki Dodge is useful... except once Ghost Step is usable it's garbage.

Cling is fine.

Abilities before Snatch Blade are also fine.

Snatch Blade is too good. It offers no save and ends an opponent's turn. The AoO is kind of strange also. I would instead allow a ninja to make an attack roll to serve as his AC against one attack, as an immediate action. That is more reasonable.

Shadow Attack means that opponents who cannot spot the ninja are stuck using readied actions or destroying all shadows. It's powerful.

Evasion happens kind of late in the class.

Ghost Mind is too powerful. Change it to 10+class level, or at most 15+ class level. Any ability requiring a natural 20 from an equal level caster is probably too good.

Counter-Block is alright.

Silence is pretty unnecessary... by this level you should have +yes to move silently anyway.

Sneaky Counter is fine.

So, taking rogue as our balance point, the ninja has ki powers but does not have UMD. Call that a wash. The ninja has useful movement abilities... the rogue has trap sense. Clear ninja win. Poison use is nice but expensive when the DC's are actually threatening. The ability to mess around with the incorporeal and ethereal is nice. Snatch Blade is too good, and the auto-success abilities are also too good. Rogue, on the other hand, gets Rogue Special Abilities starting at level 10. Crippling Strike is very nice, the others are ok. My gut says that if Hide is (ab)used this is much stronger than rogue, but hide can be dealt with. I would tone down the hiding powers so that it is not necessary to hard counter them in-game. With that and the other suggestions I made, the class is fine.