The parallels between OOTS and the Order of the Scribble [Archive]

Emo Samurai

2010-12-21, 03:22 PM

Roy-Soon
Haley-Serini
Durkon-Lirian
V-Dorukon
Belkar-Kraagor
Elan-Girard

Except all of them are pretty much the polar opposites of their own analogues.

Roy shows an adaptability and moral flexibility that a paragon of the paladin code would never have. He's able to negotiate his way into Heaven, look at the world in a meta-cognitive manner, and deal with people he would normally hate, like Belkar or Elan.

Instead of being something of an impotent peacemaker/chronicler, Haley's the second in command and probably the most forceful member of the group personality-wise. Roy's also forceful, but only when it regards something that benefits the Order. Also, she gets the swashbuckler fairly quickly.

Durkon fears trees, and yet meddles with nature much less than Liriel ever did. No animated creatures, no manipulation of biology of any sort. He's a strong melee fighter, and is deeply fatalistic and is the only member of the party that wears plate.

V appears to be arrogant, and yet probably has fewer conflicts with the rest of the party than anyone else. Commands respect whenever it is demanded, which is rare. Has a fairly traditional family setup with an "unconventional" life partner, unlike Dorukon, whose fairly standard romance with Liriel was never formalized. Learns to rely more on ingenuity than magic, unlike Dorukon.

Belkar is consistently the focus much of the group's hatred, and yet ironically, this probably keeps them together. We don't know very much about the Scribbles' dwarf, but he probably was something of the glue of the group, and yet his death meant that they fell apart more easily than if he was in Belkar's position.

Elan is trusting to a fault and dresses remarkably plainly. Instead of rebelling against authority, Elan's shown more attachment to authority figures (Roy, Hinjo) than anyone else. Probably the least likely to leave the group.

NerfTW

2010-12-21, 03:26 PM

Roy-Soon
Haley-Serini
Durkon-Lirian
V-Dorukan
Belkar-Kraagor
Elan-Girard

Fixed that for you.

Emo Samurai

2010-12-21, 03:35 PM

Thank you.

Also, the Scribble was a group that seemed to be professional and together until their catastrophic falling out, while the Stick seems unlikely to split up over a difference of methodology.

The Order of the Scribble was also formed specifically to destroy a world-destroying threat, while the Stick was cobbled together by Roy to fulfill a Blood Oath that was sworn in a drunken stupor over a crown that just looked badass.

The Order of the Scribble was made up of paragons of their respective archetypes that couldn't keep it together, while the Stick is a group of poorly optimized misfits who work together remarkably well, at least once Plan Z comes together.

King of Nowhere

2010-12-21, 04:59 PM

I already said that.
I think of the order of the scribble as "good opposites" of the oots.
I think there will be more parallels between the history of the two groups.

Emo Samurai

2010-12-21, 05:24 PM

It's like everyone but Haley is a walking contradiction/failure. She's the one member of the party who's actually better than their archetype. She's second-in-command, has impeccable thieving skills, and gets more panel-time soloing the bad guys than anyone else.

Roy's a smart warrior who spends 80% of his alive-time with a broken sword and relies more on his interpersonal skills and leadership than his strength, V believes in the power of magic and yet relies more on calculation and meta-awareness of the rules and has a shockingly limited spellbook, Belkar's a bloodthirsty halfling warrior, Elan is a charismatic bard who screws up every diplomacy check the group tries to make, and Durkon is a foolish cleric with a low Charisma modifier and gets every interpretation of Thor's will completely wrong and sleeps with a priestess of Loki.

Then you have Team Evil, where everybody's pretty much good at everything. They're all tier A+, and any one of them could take over and become Overlord.

martianmister

2010-12-21, 05:30 PM

Similar things could be said for four different groups: OOtS, Linear Guild, Order of the Scribble and Tarquin's team...

Roy, Thog, Soon Kim, "Sword and Board Guy"
Elan, Nale, Girard, Tarquin
Haley, Sabine, Serini, "Catgirl"
Durkon, Hilgya and Leeky, Lirian, Malack
Vaarsuvius, Zz'dtri and Pompey, Dorukan, Miron or Yellow-Robe
Belkar, Yikyik and Yokyok, Kroagar, ?

pinwiz

2010-12-21, 05:35 PM

I don't think that they really parallel each other that much, beyond that which all adventuring parties parallel each other. What I mean is that a good party has a variety of people. Parties don't need a do everything x5, they need an expert in every aspect they might meet adventuring. The parties in the comic all seem to fit into a general map of a what a good, varied party would contain. Maybe the Scribble is supposed to parallel the OotS, but I think it's more likely that they both just fit a standard party.

Emo Samurai

2010-12-21, 05:36 PM

Nale was The Belkar for Team Tarquin. In each team, the Belkar is the first/only one to die/leave.

I don't think that they really parallel each other that much

HAHAHAHAHA

Okay, Roy was obviously supposed to be a foil for Miko, Durkon is an eternal old man who hates trees while Lirian was an eternally young woman who loves them, thief loves dashing swordsman, etc.

Gift Jeraff

2010-12-21, 05:41 PM

Normally, I despise most Stick:Scribble parallel threads, because they tend to just amount to "they're the same race!" or "they have similar classes!" However, you make a compelling case.

But I do not think any of the parallels are intentional on the Giant's part.

Emo Samurai

2010-12-21, 05:44 PM

But I think they are. The Scribblers were obvious paragons, and as I mentioned, each of the gates was brought down by the machinations of their former guardians and inability to work together. The Stickers, on the other hand, are deliberately ironic and yet are very capable of working together.

G-Man Graves

2010-12-21, 05:47 PM

Durkon is a foolish cleric with a low Charisma modifier and gets every interpretation of Thor's will completely wrong and sleeps with a priestess of Loki.

Then you have Team Evil, where everybody's pretty much good at everything. They're all tier A+, and any one of them could take over and become Overlord.

Ooooh, you got so close, so close to making a post I agreed with entirely, and then I read this. Durkon is, quite literally, the wisest member of the party. Roy is the only one who even comes close. Hell, he's a cleric, what's a cleric's key skill? That's right, wisdom.

As for Team Evil, they aren't really "Good at everything". Xykon is good at smashing stuff, and that's it. Tsuiko or however you spell it is only good because she can cast loads and loads of spells, not because those spells are particularly high level. Redcloak is probably the most well rounded guy there, and only because he has the wisdom score to be able to effectively manage things.

Emo Samurai

2010-12-21, 05:54 PM

Xykon is good at smashing stuff, and that's it.

He can also scry and come up with witty one-liners and has a high charisma and intelligence score and could probably plan really well if he wanted to. Also, he's probably the world's greatest necromancer. He just likes relying on power because it's proven enough to get everything done in the past.

Tsuiko or however you spell it is only good because she can cast loads and loads of spells, not because those spells are particularly high level.

Tsukiko could probably take most if not all of the OOTS 1 on 1. Plus, she's Tier 1 because of her great versatility. Also, she has enough magic power to take on pretty much anyone short of V's master or some lich/dragon.

Redcloak

Agree with you there. You're supposed to completely underestimate him, he completely underestimates himself.

Durkon is, quite literally, the wisest member of the party.

Really? Because the only time I remember him using his wisdom was when they met Miko for the first time and he interpreted the storm as a sign from Thor, when it turned out that it wasn't one. And whenever it comes to planning, he's completely silent. He literally never has anything to say, and whenever the fight is joined, his first act is always to start hitting things with his hammer instead of, say, casting spells.

G-Man Graves

2010-12-21, 06:17 PM

He can also scry and come up with witty one-liners and has a high charisma and intelligence score and could probably plan really well if he wanted to. Also, he's probably the world's greatest necromancer. He just likes relying on power because it's proven enough to get everything done in the past.

Firstly, he can't really scry, that's why he uses crystal balls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) The one liners are without a doubt his own skill coming into play, but planning isn't his thing. Similarly, as discussed in start of darkness, becoming a lich did boost his intelligence a little, but only to the point where he might be slightly above average, at best. He's cunning, but he really isn't smart.

Tsukiko could probably take most if not all of the OOTS 1 on 1. Plus, she's Tier 1 because of her great versatility. Also, she has enough magic power to take on pretty much anyone short of V's master or some lich/dragon.

Tsukiko could indisputably take out Elan. Haley has been seen to get taken down, but only because Tsukiko was planning for her. Roy would probably lose, but it's less likely since he's smart enough to try to think of a way to get around her flying. Belkar would probably be able to take her apart more easily than Roy, due to the fact that she doesn't wear armor, has slightly below average hit points, and he can jump mad high. Durkon I would say has a fair shot of beating her, because Clerics can pull all kinds of trick out of their sleeves, and his spells are higher level than hers. V could slap her into the ground, since his spells are much more powerful, and focused on damage. Durkon and V would have a hard time if she thought to just counter-spell, but V even says that that is a rarely used method of combat.

Really? Because the only time I remember him using his wisdom was when they met Miko for the first time and he interpreted the storm as a sign from Thor, when it turned out that it wasn't one. And whenever it comes to planning, he's completely silent. He literally never has anything to say, and whenever the fight is joined, his first act is always to start hitting things with his hammer instead of, say, casting spells.

Durkon is not a leader, that is the job delegated to Roy or Haley. He doesn't talk a lot when planning because they are the ones capable of coming up with decent battle plans, while V is intelligent enough to point out flaws in their reasoning. Similarly, he specs himself in a way that his main contribution is healing, so for the first few rounds of combat he shouldn't be doing anything but hitting things. Clerics are good at that too, you know. That's not to say that he CAN'T turn the tables with ease, when things get dire he is more than willing to whip out Thor's Might or Lightening.

Capt Spanner

2010-12-21, 06:40 PM

That's not to say that he CAN'T turn the tables with ease, when things get dire [Durkon] is more than willing to whip out Thor's Might or Lightening.

Indeed. He acts as OOTS's reserves. He hangs back from the main battle gets involved when needed. I think this is more to do with humility than anything else.

I think this is more a humility than a tactical thing. He'd probably say he wants to stay focussed on healing as much as possible and therefore not distract himself by going on the offensive.

Darth Hunterix

2010-12-21, 06:47 PM

I think we still don't know enough about the Scribbles to make statements "look, he is his opposite/parallel/etc".

For example:
Girard may be connected to (I know I'll be mixing "similarities theories" and "opposites theories", but I cannot make myself caring about it, sorry):
Belkar, because they are both chaotic to the bones, attractive to women of diffrent height (Serini drew hearts dedicated to Girard, and Belkar scored in Greysky City), and they are both are more than willing to get XP for... friendly fire.
V, because they are both spellcasters who enjoy blowing up other party members, they both trust only in themselves and their spells (or maybe I should use past tense in case of V?), and they unable to admit, that they may be wrong.
Elan - read the first post of this thread.

But Belkster can also be parallel to Kraagor (again - read the first post) and Soon Kim (perfect opposition to responsible leader and a paladin).
V can be Stick's version of Dorukan or opposite to Kraagor (and I don't compare their classes, but the fact, that Kraagor was apparently willing to sacriface himself during mano-a-mano fight against the Snarl himself, which may or may not indicate, that he was a team-player, while V... isn't).
Elan can be Dorukan's opposite (I haven't read SoD, so I may be wrong here) because he is "kid" as well, but while Dorukan "just wanted to get into her [Lirian's] magical door", Elan's relationship with Haley seem to me as his most mature act ever (I mean, when we compare it to his other actions), also it was Elan who destroyed his gate.

So, summing up: right now, we can assign almost any member of the OotS to almost any member of the OotScribble. I'm sure more clues will be revealed int the future, but right now we can only cast dice to see who is who.

But you know what? There is one thing I'm sure about: The Giant will surprise us all :smalltongue:

Emo Samurai

2010-12-21, 07:21 PM

Also, prediction: Kraagor was eaten by something that destroys gods. To distinguish himself, Belkar will draw his last breath by becoming a god of war. Kind of like Cyric. I mean, he's already sort of a warrior-thief, why not?

planning isn't his thing

He has literally never had to plan. Lirian took him down with something nobody in the world could even predict. And I highly doubt you can make all those freaky super-skeleton things with just a high Charisma modifier. And at the end of Start of Darkness, his handling of Redcloak's brother was pretty freaking ingenious.

Durkon I would say has a fair shot of beating her, because Clerics can pull all kinds of trick out of their sleeves, and his spells are higher level than hers.

He can cast spells, or he can fight off/turn the wights that can render him helpless. He can't do both.

V could slap her into the ground, since his spells are much more powerful, and focused on damage.

That's 1 out of 6. I still think she'd have something that could kill Belkar pretty easily, like a high level summon his weapons can't touch.

I think we still don't know enough about the Scribbles to make statements "look, he is his opposite/parallel/etc".

Lirian/Haley. Lirian's a consummate builder who rules a forest, while Haley's a thief who sneaks around cities plundering enough wealth to feed whole nations. Plus, Lirian had all kinds of skills and predilections you wouldn't expect from a nature worshipper, since she was the world's only real genetic engineer. She was more Frankenstein than Frankenstein himself, which would explain her attraction to the party's mage. Haley similarly expands beyond her own archetype, though in a way that doesn't directly contradict our expectations.

G-Man Graves

2010-12-21, 07:48 PM

He has literally never had to plan. Lirian took him down with something nobody in the world could even predict. And I highly doubt you can make all those freaky super-skeleton things with just a high Charisma modifier. And at the end of Start of Darkness, his handling of Redcloak's brother was pretty freaking ingenious.

He literally never planned ahead, because he was never faced with a situation that required a solution more eloquent than:
1: Shoot it with fire and lightning.
2: Is it dead? If yes, reanimate. If no, repeat step one.

You can make freaky super skeletons if you're a sorcerer with a high charisma, which determines what spells you can use, how powerful they are, and how often you can cast them.

The plan with Right eye isn't that ingenious. "Huh, this rogue wants to kill me. He'll want to be able to sneak attack me. Are there any weapons that would let him do that? If so, are there items that could counter that? If there are, I had better buy one." Not exactly Sun Tzu here.

That's 1 out of 6. I still think she'd have something that could kill Belkar pretty easily, like a high level summon his weapons can't touch.

Considering that he has a whole bunch of levels that give pretty good hit dice, and she's at least half of her classes levels only give 1d4 hp, I wouldn't bank on that. Add in that we've only seen her cast up to level four spells, I wouldn't say she would be able to cast Summon Monster IX or whatever.

Zmflavius

2010-12-21, 10:10 PM

Firstly, he can't really scry, that's why he uses crystal balls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) The one liners are without a doubt his own skill coming into play, but planning isn't his thing. Similarly, as discussed in start of darkness, becoming a lich did boost his intelligence a little, but only to the point where he might be slightly above average, at best. He's cunning, but he really isn't smart.

I'm really going to have to disagree with you here.

Personally, I've always seen Xykon as being fairly naturally talented, but incredibly lazy to the point where he lacks the drive to actually put in work or planning to do something. This is because he has never really faced a threat dangerous enough that simply using raw natural talent in the bluntest fashion possible has ever failed to suffice.

Basically, throughout his existence he has become accustomed to thinking that doing something in the most straightforward way possible will work for him, and because it actually does work most of the time, he is seriously lacking in the skills necessary to plan and do something properly.

For example, in the Ghost Martyr fight, he sees a bunch of enemies and begins pounding them. It doesn't work, obviously. He needs Redcloak to remind him how to fight incorporeal beings.

Emo Samurai

2010-12-22, 12:23 AM

Velaryon

2010-12-22, 12:28 AM

Tsukiko could indisputably take out Elan. Haley has been seen to get taken down, but only because Tsukiko was planning for her. Roy would probably lose, but it's less likely since he's smart enough to try to think of a way to get around her flying. Belkar would probably be able to take her apart more easily than Roy, due to the fact that she doesn't wear armor, has slightly below average hit points, and he can jump mad high. Durkon I would say has a fair shot of beating her, because Clerics can pull all kinds of trick out of their sleeves, and his spells are higher level than hers. V could slap her into the ground, since his spells are much more powerful, and focused on damage. Durkon and V would have a hard time if she thought to just counter-spell, but V even says that that is a rarely used method of combat.

From what we've seen of Tsukiko, the highest levels spells she is capable of are 5th, in both her arcane and divine classes. That puts her somewhere around 12th level (3 levels of Wizard, 3 of Cleric, 6 of Mystic Theurge). Both of the Order's casters are capable of better than that.

Tsukiko may be able to go all day without running out of spells, but the most she can cast in a single round is two, one of them a quickened 1st level spell. Unless she brings a lot of undead reinforcements (in which case it's not a 1-on-1 fight, is it?), I don't think either V or Durkon would have much trouble with her.

As for the others, all the Orb spells work well vs. Haley's fairly low AC, but despite that Haley still gave a good fight. If Tsukiko isn't prepared with a lot of AC-targeting spells, she will have a very difficult time against Haley.

Fly neutralizes Roy unless he can find a way around it, but he can mow down whatever undead Tsukiko throws at him with little difficulty. She would have to rain down damage spells on him, and it will take quite a bit. Roy was able to take a Meteor Swarm to the face and live long enough to fall to his death, so unless Xykon rolled very low damage with that spell, it will take quite a lot of damage spells for Tsukiko to go through Roy's hp.

Belkar would probably not give Tsukiko much trouble, because he likely has a low Will save and we know she can cast dominate person. If she doesn't target his Will save though, he might actually give Tsukiko even more trouble than Roy, because Belkar can jump to attack her if she doesn't fly high enough. He should have little difficulty hitting her AC since Tsukiko wears no armor, and he's likely got a decent AC and Reflex save thanks to a good dexterity.

Elan seems like the easiest one for her to beat, since all he can really do is try illusion spells unless Tsukiko flies low enough to fall victim to his rapier wit.

Zevox

2010-12-22, 12:50 AM

Also, I'm wondering why he didn't just drain level those ghost paladins.
Er, because the undead aren't harmed by Energy Drain, but rather gain temporary hp from it? And because it's a ninth level spell and even he doesn't have anywhere near enough of those to use a single-target spell on that many targets? Really, that one should be obvious.

Zevox

Emo Samurai

2010-12-22, 01:18 AM

They're positive energy spirits.

Kurald Galain

2010-12-22, 01:42 AM

Or to put it differently,

{table] |OOTS|Scribble|Linear|Empire|Team Evil|Azure City
Hero / Big Bad|Roy|Soon|Nale|Tarquin|Xykon|Hinjo
Lancer / Dragon|Haley|Girard|Sabine|Miron?|Redcloak|Lien
Big Guy / Brute|Durkon|Kraagor|Thog, Yikyik, Leeky|Swordguy?|MITD|O-Chul
Smart Guy / Evil Genius|Vaarsuvius|Dorukan, Lirian|Zzt'dri|Malack, Yellowrobe?|Redcloak again|Shojo
Chick / Dark Chick|Elan|Serini|Pompey|Catgirl?|Tsukiko|Sangwaan
Sixth Ranger|Belkar|-|Hilgya, Yokyok|-|Right-Eye|Miko
[/table]

Based on Five Man Band (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand) and Five Bad Band (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveBadBand). The Linear Guild doesn't really fit this classification, but the two Orders and Team Evil do very well, as does Azure City. We don't really know enough about Tarquin's group to fit them in.

MReav

2010-12-22, 08:21 AM

Also, I'm wondering why he didn't just drain level those ghost paladins. And he could have retreated and waited for some kind of plan, it's not like the ghosts were really going anywhere. They seemed bound to the throne room.

Because there were more Paladins than he had level drains. We saw a huge wall of ghost martyrs, and yet by the time Redcloak got there, many were gone.

Kurald Galain

2010-12-22, 08:26 AM

And he could have retreated and waited for some kind of plan,

This is Xykon we're talking about. He really isn't the kind of guy to retreat and wait for some kind of plan.

Alagaesian

2010-12-22, 08:51 AM

Not to mention that Lirian and Belkar can be opposites. They both have nature-based classes and use them very effectively. The difference is that Lirian is a Good druid and thus likes saving the lives of creatures and uses monsters like treants to her advantage. Meanwhile, Belkar is Chaotic Evil all the way and prefers to murder people and monsters horribly.

Zevox

2010-12-22, 02:41 PM

They're positive energy spirits.
And? Even if that means they could be affected by that spell - and considering they're a homebrew creation we have no idea if it does - it doesn't alter my second point, that even Xykon lacked enough 9th-level spell slots to hit everything with that spell. Hell, he even outright says that he's running out of spells above 5th level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) by the time Redcloak arrives. The 9th level ones were probably the first to go, especially since he had already blown one on Roy earlier (Meteor Swarm). Even at epic levels with a charisma of 28+ he'd only get 7 of those per day without spending Epic Feats gaining more spell slots at that level.

Zevox

Swordpriest

2010-12-22, 03:45 PM

Meh, I'd say it's more a case of "you can draw parallels between any D&D adventuring party, because they are drawn from a certain limited number of races and classes, and need to have a certain party composition to survive."

But that's just me.

G-Man Graves

2010-12-22, 03:46 PM

Also, I'm wondering why he didn't just drain level those ghost paladins. And he could have retreated and waited for some kind of plan, it's not like the ghosts were really going anywhere. They seemed bound to the throne room.

Because as I mentioned before, Xykon is occasionally cunning, not smart. I mean, if you're going to argue something, don't later post an example that proves the other guy's point. :smallwink:

doodthedud

2010-12-23, 03:07 AM

If Kraagor is like Belkar, and Kraagor died earlier than the rest of the Order, causing rifts between them, what will Belkar's incoming young death do to the Order of the Stick?

BridgeCity

2010-12-23, 03:48 AM

If Kraagor is like Belkar, and Kraagor died earlier than the rest of the Order, causing rifts between them, what will Belkar's incoming young death do to the Order of the Stick?

If you go with the opposites idea in regards to the Scribble, his death would bring the Stick closer together.

Deliverance

2010-12-23, 04:40 AM

MartytheBioGuy

2010-12-23, 06:01 AM

Emo Samurai

2010-12-23, 10:47 AM

his death would bring the Stick closer together.

Because they'll all be of the same religion.

Deliverance

2010-12-23, 08:31 PM

This made me laugh. When I first joined these forums, I posted an almost identical theory and got shot down and ignored. Glad that someone else is meeting more success. Yeah, I think that there are deliberate parallels, and I think that Belkar's end will be hauntingly familiar.
You should have posted your original theory near Christmas or another major holiday. It significantly increases the the forum's tolerance for silly theories and unprovable speculation of all sorts as does having a significant period of time pass since the last time the forum saw the same or related speculation. :smallsmile:

It is quite some time since we had an "OOTStick members are analogous/similar/dissimilar/opposites to OOTScribble/Team Evil/Linear Guild/"just about any 5-6-man D&D adventure party covering basic roles with race/class/sex diversity" thread so tolerance levels have had some time to build up.

Warren Dew

2010-12-24, 06:43 PM

What I don't get is why adventuring parties seem always to have six people in this world. Order of the Stick, Order of the Scribble, Linear Guild, and Tarquin's group - all six people each. Why?

martianmister

2010-12-24, 06:54 PM

Gift Jeraff

2010-12-25, 12:02 AM

There's also Roy and Durkon's old adventuring party, which consisted of five members. And the Linear Guild has six because the OOTS has six.

lothos

2010-12-25, 01:10 AM

What I don't get is why adventuring parties seem always to have six people in this world. Order of the Stick, Order of the Scribble, Linear Guild, and Tarquin's group - all six people each. Why?

You know, that's almost exactly what I was thinking. All 4 parties have 6 members. Maybe when Rich DM's, he usually has 6 players :-)

Or possibly, Rich chooses 6 because it allows him to create more interesting characters like multi-class or prestige class characters. A lot of 4 member parties would just have the classic 4 specialist roles and having 2 more makes a more believable situation where bard and other generalists can have a place.

Regarding the original premise of this thread, my feeling is that I'm sure there are parallels between each of the groups. However it would be strange if there were not at least some things in common. I mean, it's possible there is some deep meaning to these parallels or it could just be that Rich would have to work REALLY hard to make it such that there were no parallels at all, and if that actually were the case, that in itself would be worthy of comment.