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Rasman
2010-12-21, 06:26 PM
In order to abuse a specific feat out of the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide, I was wondering if there were any ways to "optimize" Cower and/or Stun.

I know that Stun Ray is a guaranteed Stun for at least one round, but I'm looking for more unconventional ways, particularly that can be done with a Fighter, but ANY class is acceptable.

Ernir
2010-12-21, 06:47 PM
Cower is as easy as picking up Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark), preferably with the Never Outnumbered skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) to affect many people at once, and something to intimidate as a cheaper action than a standard action, usually Fearsome Armor (Drow of the Underdark) or nine levels of Fighter using the Zhentarim substitution levels (Champions of Valor web enhancement).
This is, of course, a demoralization technique, which means those that are immune to Fear can give you the finger rather easily.

Stunning is surprisingly difficult, considering how many ways there are to get Daze... but at least you have Stunning Fist (PHB) for Wisdom-heavy builds, and Sudden Stunning (DMG2) for the charisma-heavy ones. If the MIC is kosher in your circle but the DMG2 isn't, there's the Stunning Surge weapon enhancement in there, but it's both worse than the Sudden Stunning enhancement and more expensive.

EDIT: Any class, you say? Uh... there are a few dozen spells that threaten a save-or-stun, starting with Color Spray and going pretty much all the way up. Choose your tactic, find an appropriate spell afterwards. =/

Dimers
2010-12-21, 11:00 PM
Not that it's particularly optimized, but ... what can I say, I like the Book of Exalted Deeds. Resounding Blow feat causes cowering on melee crits, with a Will save that scales with level. It's not explicitly a fear effect, nor mind-affecting. The feat is General rather than Exalted.

If you go the Stunning Fist route, another feat from BoED can add +2 to the save DC against evil creatures, and tack on a round of "staggered" after the round of stun. Tasty, but it's got horrendous prerequisites that include lawful ki strike and Charisma 15+.

Keld Denar
2010-12-22, 12:22 AM
Daze is better than stun anyway. You can't stun undead or constructs or elementals, dazing works better. There are like, 4 ways to become immunity or recover quickly from a daze. Its a much better effect to pursue.

If you are going to be doing this, you might consider using Pally of Tyranny or Hexblade (or both) as a base chassis. They come with built-in save reducers. Tack on 3 levels of Binder (with Improved Binding) to get Foculor for even more reductions.

JaronK
2010-12-22, 12:44 AM
Rogue 1/Zhentarium Fighter 9/Scarlet Corsair 5 with Imperious Command. Dread Pirate 5 works too. Now you can intimidate everyone in the area to cowering once a round as a swift action.

Kobold Sorcerer with a nice high charisma, Arcane Thesis (Wings of Flurry), and Sculpt Spell. Do huge damage, daze everyone nearby (but enemies only), and you can use the spell at longer ranges or as a close range shot.

JaronK

Elfin
2010-12-22, 12:48 AM
Wings of Flurry already targets only enemies, which makes it sweeter yet.

Rasman
2010-12-22, 08:12 AM
Daze is better than stun anyway. You can't stun undead or constructs or elementals, dazing works better. There are like, 4 ways to become immunity or recover quickly from a daze. Its a much better effect to pursue.

If you are going to be doing this, you might consider using Pally of Tyranny or Hexblade (or both) as a base chassis. They come with built-in save reducers. Tack on 3 levels of Binder (with Improved Binding) to get Foculor for even more reductions.

well, my reasoning behind Cower and Stun is that there is a feat in the Advanced Players Guide that allows a Rogue, or anyone with +5d6 Sneak Attack, to Coup de Grace anyone with either of the two effects. I was originally going to use the trick with a Spellthief/Sorcerer/USS/Spellwarp Sniper/Arcane Trickster build, but according to my DM, Sorcerers in Pathfinder don't increase the casting time of Metamagiced spells, so Spell Surge doesn't work to give me two castings of Stun Ray and then another big damage spell.

My logic behind this is to have one character Stun Optimized and another Cower Optimized in order to allow a Roguish character to Coup de Grace anything I can get to fail the saves.


Cower is as easy as picking up Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark), preferably with the Never Outnumbered skill trick (Complete Scoundrel) to affect many people at once, and something to intimidate as a cheaper action than a standard action, usually Fearsome Armor (Drow of the Underdark) or nine levels of Fighter using the Zhentarim substitution levels (Champions of Valor web enhancement).
This is, of course, a demoralization technique, which means those that are immune to Fear can give you the finger rather easily.

Stunning is surprisingly difficult, considering how many ways there are to get Daze... but at least you have Stunning Fist (PHB) for Wisdom-heavy builds, and Sudden Stunning (DMG2) for the charisma-heavy ones. If the MIC is kosher in your circle but the DMG2 isn't, there's the Stunning Surge weapon enhancement in there, but it's both worse than the Sudden Stunning enhancement and more expensive.

EDIT: Any class, you say? Uh... there are a few dozen spells that threaten a save-or-stun, starting with Color Spray and going pretty much all the way up. Choose your tactic, find an appropriate spell afterwards. =/

Imperious Command seems to be an easy one for my Fighter type since he has an insanely high Cha and Intimidate before feat investment.

Monk and Stunning Fist is always a consideration, but...targeting Fort saves is always the hardest it seems. As much as I love the Monk class, I've never landed a Stunning Fist because of the type of campaigns I've played them in.

I'll go and find the Never Outnumbered Skill Trick again, I had honestly forgotten it even though I've been going though CS a lot lately.


Not that it's particularly optimized, but ... what can I say, I like the Book of Exalted Deeds. Resounding Blow feat causes cowering on melee crits, with a Will save that scales with level. It's not explicitly a fear effect, nor mind-affecting. The feat is General rather than Exalted.

If you go the Stunning Fist route, another feat from BoED can add +2 to the save DC against evil creatures, and tack on a round of "staggered" after the round of stun. Tasty, but it's got horrendous prerequisites that include lawful ki strike and Charisma 15+.

I actually really like the Resounding Blow route, things that have High Fort tend to have either a low Will or Reflex, so until I can cheese an Intimidating Reflex save, this is a great option.


Rogue 1/Zhentarium Fighter 9/Scarlet Corsair 5 with Imperious Command. Dread Pirate 5 works too. Now you can intimidate everyone in the area to cowering once a round as a swift action.

Kobold Sorcerer with a nice high charisma, Arcane Thesis (Wings of Flurry), and Sculpt Spell. Do huge damage, daze everyone nearby (but enemies only), and you can use the spell at longer ranges or as a close range shot.

JaronK

I might look into this with my Fire specialist since this will probably be his other Pony Trick.

Azernak0
2010-12-22, 12:20 PM
Paladin of Tyranny 4 / Hexblade 4 (with Dark Companion ACF from PH2)

H: Bind Vestige (Tome of Magic)
1: Improved Bind Vestige (Tome of Magic)
3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Talenta Boomerang
6: Boomerang Daze (Races of Eberron online excerpt)
9: Power Attack

Use an Aptitude Weapon (+1 Enhancement from Tome of Battle) and you can treat that weapon as a Talenta Boomerang for the purpose of Boomerang Daze.

With Focalor bound, you can give -6 on an opponent's saves if they are directly beside you. That means, with a +1 Aptitude Greatsword, then ever enemy you hit basically has to make a DC 2d6+16+damage done to save versus Daze for one Round. You can have even more fun by having this guy be cohort from Leadership while you specialize in Save or Lose spells.

While this build doesn't let you do CDG's on the opponent, it does more or less instantly kill them because they are unlikely to make the Save and with multiple attacks a round, you are unlikely to not Stunlock them into oblivion. If you dead set on going for the CDG, than Cower is a better option.

Complete Warrior Samurai 10 gives Mass Staredown, which even though it makes you dive 10 levels into an otherwise stinker of a class, lets you do an Intimidate check of everything within 30 feet of the target. With a Charisma of 16, a Circlet of Persuasion, 5 Ranks in Bluff, a Fearsome Armor, Imperious Command, you will have +25 check to Intimidate. This means that anything that has a 'save' of less than +15 simply will never be able to act.

Rasman
2010-12-22, 03:56 PM
Paladin of Tyranny 4 / Hexblade 4 (with Dark Companion ACF from PH2)

H: Bind Vestige (Tome of Magic)
1: Improved Bind Vestige (Tome of Magic)
3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Talenta Boomerang
6: Boomerang Daze (Races of Eberron online excerpt)
9: Power Attack

Use an Aptitude Weapon (+1 Enhancement from Tome of Battle) and you can treat that weapon as a Talenta Boomerang for the purpose of Boomerang Daze.

With Focalor bound, you can give -6 on an opponent's saves if they are directly beside you. That means, with a +1 Aptitude Greatsword, then ever enemy you hit basically has to make a DC 2d6+16+damage done to save versus Daze for one Round. You can have even more fun by having this guy be cohort from Leadership while you specialize in Save or Lose spells.

While this build doesn't let you do CDG's on the opponent, it does more or less instantly kill them because they are unlikely to make the Save and with multiple attacks a round, you are unlikely to not Stunlock them into oblivion. If you dead set on going for the CDG, than Cower is a better option.

Complete Warrior Samurai 10 gives Mass Staredown, which even though it makes you dive 10 levels into an otherwise stinker of a class, lets you do an Intimidate check of everything within 30 feet of the target. With a Charisma of 16, a Circlet of Persuasion, 5 Ranks in Bluff, a Fearsome Armor, Imperious Command, you will have +25 check to Intimidate. This means that anything that has a 'save' of less than +15 simply will never be able to act.

I dig the Boomerang Cheeze...I mean......Daze chain since it's REALLY only a 2 feat investment for something crazy awesome. Might consider a Dervish for some sick nasty with that.

The path I'm looking at most is the Cower though, but I like it for my backup plan, so I'll PROBABLY use it with my Gunslinger Cohort.

I don't follow the 5 ranks in Bluff logic though...

JaronK
2010-12-22, 04:06 PM
Note that the Wings of Flurry thing has far fewer things immune to it. Lots of stuff is immune to mind effecting at higher levels.

But with that said, check out the Inspire Awe variant for bards (Dragon Magic). It gives up Inspire Courage (ouch) but with Requiem it even works on undead, and it makes all critters nearby shaken for as long as they hear the music (save DC is too high for anyone to reasonably make if you put any effort into it). Now, remember the way fear effects stack... they add together, and the sum total effect remains for the full duration of the longest running effect. Thus, if you use Imperious Command on someone who's already effected by that bard, they remain cowering as long as they hear the music. Though I hear Bards had the duration of their musics nerfed in Pathfinder.

And note that Aptitude weapons won't work with Boomerang Daze. They only work if it applies to a single weapon. That feat applies to two. So, you have to actually use the boomerang for that to work.

JaronK

Optimator
2010-12-22, 04:21 PM
White Raven Hammer and Swooping Dragon Strike work great, but would be hard to obtain.

Godskook
2010-12-22, 04:36 PM
If you have access to 3.5(Do you? You mention PF), Thunderstep Boots are a great stunning soulmeld. A gatling-type rogue would have a *LOT* of fun with that and the feat you're describing.

Rasman
2010-12-22, 05:48 PM
If you have access to 3.5(Do you? You mention PF), Thunderstep Boots are a great stunning soulmeld. A gatling-type rogue would have a *LOT* of fun with that and the feat you're describing.

I have access to pretty much any book I want

Keld Denar
2010-12-22, 05:53 PM
Thunderstride Boots requires some form of pounce, and preferably some form of meldshaping. You could do it decently on a Lion Totem Rager though. You'd need 1 feat on Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstride Boots) to poach it from the Soulborn list (who actually plays Soulborn?), but thats not bad and there is no level restriction on it. The DC will be kinda low unless you jack up your relevant stat.

Speaking of which, a Totemist's DCs are based on his Con score. A Soulborn's are based on his Wis. If you were a Totemist who picked up a Soulborn meld via Shape Soulmeld, would it's DC be based on your Wisdom or Con? What if you weren't a meldshaper, and you simply took Shape Soulmeld?

BenTheJester
2010-12-22, 07:33 PM
Rogue 1/Zhentarium Fighter 9/Scarlet Corsair 5 with Imperious Command. Dread Pirate 5 works too. Now you can intimidate everyone in the area to cowering once a round as a swift action.

Are you sure of that?

I always thought Fear goes like: Shaken -> Frightened -> Panicked, and only go to Cower if they are Panicked AND cornered.

Bringing an enemy(or a bunch of them) to a panicked state isn't hard, but cornering them, now that's a whole other level

Keld Denar
2010-12-22, 07:35 PM
Imperious Command was mentioned. Its a feat in Drow of the Underdark, who are pretty scary in their own right. It states that if you would make a foe shaken, they instead cower for 1 round, then are shaken for 1 round. It requires a 15 Cha, so its not easy to get, but it has no other prereqs. Its pretty sexy combined with normal intimidate checks, but when you can supercharge them and speed them up, its pretty danged effective.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-12-22, 08:50 PM
How does cowering fit into the fear progression? To clarify, if a cowering character is hit with another fear effect, what happens?

JaronK
2010-12-22, 08:59 PM
I would assume cowering is the same as panicked, as it's a special case of panicked. So, you'd just stay there for the full duration.

JaronK

Keld Denar
2010-12-22, 09:08 PM
Cowering is normally the condition you get when you are paniced, but can not flee. That means you are cornered or otherwise restricted from GTFOing. Otherwise it is mechanically identical to paniced.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-12-22, 09:22 PM
I would assume cowering is the same as panicked, as it's a special case of panicked. So, you'd just stay there for the full duration.

JaronK


Cowering is normally the condition you get when you are paniced, but can not flee. That means you are cornered or otherwise restricted from GTFOing. Otherwise it is mechanically identical to paniced.

Good to know as it came up the other day when the party encountered a pair of Blackwings (MMV). Wow, that makes multiples of those guys pretty dang nasty.

Rasman
2010-12-22, 10:31 PM
Cowering is normally the condition you get when you are paniced, but can not flee. That means you are cornered or otherwise restricted from GTFOing. Otherwise it is mechanically identical to paniced.

yeah, exactly, that's why it is a bit harder to Optimize since, if you only tried to optimize fear you'd then have to figure out how to corner them

Thespianus
2010-12-23, 03:26 AM
Imperious Command was mentioned. Its a feat in Drow of the Underdark, who are pretty scary in their own right. It states that if you would make a foe shaken, they instead cower for 1 round, then are shaken for 1 round. It requires a 15 Cha, so its not easy to get, but it has no other prereqs. Its pretty sexy combined with normal intimidate checks, but when you can supercharge them and speed them up, its pretty danged effective.

Going for a Barbarian based Intimidate-build, there's the Fearsome Gaze ACF in Dragon 349, which keys Intimidate off Strength rather than Charisma (and you get a +4 bonus on the check) at level 7.

If you take Imperious Command after your 7th level, it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask the DM to allow you to qualify for the Imperious Command feat if you have a 15+ Str (which you will have).

However, it's not RAW. Just a reasonable request if your DM allows Dragon material, IMHO.