PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Binder Aid Needed



arguskos
2010-12-21, 07:17 PM
Ok, I'm finally out of my depth somewhat. I've just had a great idea for an NPC for an upcoming game: Gage, the Diabolus Binder!

Gage is a Diabolus (Dragon Compendium) Binder 8 using Tenebrous and Otiax (thanks Improved Binding!). The idea is to use Tenebrous' turning ability to fuel Strength Devotion to make Gage's natural tail attack a 1d8+poison+Str natural weapon and then use Otiax's Air Blasts for AoOs and secondary attacks (the lowish BAB of the Binder is offset by Air Blast being a melee touch attack). This doesn't sound super-powered, and that's cause it's not. It is however just right for my players, who aren't big fans of doing charop stuff.

What I need from you: Feat suggestions (Gage has 3 to play with, since I use a more generous feat scheme than most people), gear suggestions (just name stuff in a general price range lower than, say, 20-30k), and other good uses of Tenebrous and Otiax. I'm open to other vestiges, but Tenebrous fuels Strength Devotion (I'm the DM, and I'm permitting it to work, so don't debate that here, please; and yes, my players will be aware of this if it ever comes up, so they can do the same back to me) so he's probably gotta stay. Whatever advice you give, PLEASE GIVE SOURCES. All official 3.5 material is legit, Dragonlance is not, Dragon Magazine is, so go nuts people. Oh, and he must remain a Diabolus Binder 8, so that can't change.

Finally, I need a refresher on everything Natural Weapons. Do they use 1x Str? .5? x2? Is there a way to change this? Can I use one with Weapon Finesse? Can I trip with one? Etcetcetc.

tl;dr: Making a natural weapon Binder, need halps, plz halps, appreciated.

Godskook
2010-12-21, 07:20 PM
If this binder doesn't need to be fighting more than 1/day, you can probably find better uses for Tenebrous.

Greenish
2010-12-21, 07:24 PM
The idea is to use Tenebrous' turning ability to fuel Strength Devotion to make Gage's natural tail attack a 1d8+poison+Str natural weapon:smallconfused:

I for some reason have it in my head that Strength Devotion gives you a slam attack and allows you to pierce DR/Adamantine.

[Edit]: Anyhow, primary natural attacks use 1x (or 1.5x, if they're the only natural weapon and called as such) Str, while secondaries use 0.5x.

arguskos
2010-12-21, 07:25 PM
:smallconfused:

I for some reason have it in my head that Strength Devotion gives you a slam attack and allows you to pierce DR/Adamantine.
It does, but it also includes the following line: "If you already have a natural weapon, you use the better of the two damage values, and gain a +2 circumstance bonus on any damage rolls you make with that weapon." :smallbiggrin:

Basically, what happens is that if you already have a natural weapon, you gain a slam and your natural weapon probably upgrades the damage die and gains +2 damage.

EDIT: Also, this guy may well need to fight multiple times in the same day. He'll probably be performing return attacks after the initial, since he's not meant to be a fire-and-forget opponent.

Darrin
2010-12-22, 05:34 AM
Finally, I need a refresher on everything Natural Weapons. Do they use 1x Str? .5? x2? Is there a way to change this? Can I use one with Weapon Finesse? Can I trip with one? Etcetcetc.


The rules for natural weapons are spread all over the place, but the Rules Compendium consolidates and clarifies a few things. General rules:

Natural weapons do not get iterative attacks. Each type of natural weapon may only attack once per round (although there are exceptions, usually claws). If the creature has only one natural weapon, then that is it's primary attack, and it gets x1.5 Str bonus on it (however, this isn't consistent, so check the stat block or ability that granted the natural attack).

If the creature has multiple natural weapons, then the stat block should say which one is the primary. If it doesn't, then whichever weapon it can attack with most easily is the primary (highest attack bonus, after that try highest damage). Again, this isn't very consistent. The remaining natural weapons become secondary attacks with a -5 penalty and x0.5 Str bonus.

If the creature is able to make attacks with manufactured weapons (i.e., iterative attacks), then it may do so and add all of its natural attacks to its full attack progression as secondary attacks (including the primary) with a -5 penalty. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to -2, and Improved Multiattack reduces it to zero.

Now, this is where it starts to get a bit wonky. The rules say that attacking with a manufactured weapon doesn't "interfere in any way" with any natural attacks the creature it has. What this means is there's no penalty on the secondary attacks for attacking with a manufactured weapon as a primary attack other than the normal -5 secondary penalty (TWF, Flurry of Blows, and Snap Kick all incur a -2 penalty on all attacks). Although it's not stated in the rules anywhere, but implied somewhat erratically by stat blocks (lizardman, giants, various devils/demons), if that appendage is busy attacking with a manufactured weapon, it can't be used as a natural attack. You have to apply this with common sense on a case-by-case basis.

Another exception to the general rules are most large-sized or bigger creatures with a vaguely humanoid shape (giants, elementals, golems) get two slam attacks to represent two "arms". If the arms are busy attacking with manufactured weapons, they don't get their slam attacks. Again, this isn't very consistent: Ogres, a large-sized giant, get no slam attacks. If a creature has no appendages whatsoever (oozes, slimes, thoqqua), it gets a "body" slam. Some medium-sized humanoids get one slam attack (doppelganger, warforged), but it's not clear if they lose this slam when using one or both arms for manufactured weapon attacks.

Natural weapons are treated as light weapons, but like unarmed strikes they *can* be used with Power Attack (treat as one-handed weapons, so no damage multiplier for two-handed attacks). As light weapons, all natural attacks can be used with Weapon Finesse. Because any natural weapon that is not a primary attack is automatically considered a secondary weapon, they generally cannot be used as an off-hand attack for the purposes of TWF (which also might violate the "only attack once" rule). However, certain natural weapons, such as the Shifter Razorclaws, can be used as off-hand attacks.

As far as I can determine, you can make a disarm or sunder attempt with a natural weapon (I don't see any rule anywhere that says you can't... well, ok, apparently you can't sunder with a piercing weapon), but you would incur an AoO without various feats, and take a -4 penalty for using a light weapon. Trip is a little different in that by default it's treated as an unarmed attack (no specific weapon is involved). Tripping with a weapon is an option, but only if that weapon specifically says it can be used to trip.

I've been looking around trying to determine how you handle AoOs for natural weapons, but I can't find anything. All I can find is something that says if you use a secondary attack on an AoO, it still has a -5 penalty and I would assume x0.5 Str bonus. So I guess there's some sort of implied rule that a creature can use any natural weapon for an AoO, but it's usually the primary, and this is an exception to the "can only attack once per round" rule.

The Diabolus has a "tail" attack, and based on the description it sounds like it can only be used as a secondary attack (-5 penalty, x0.5 Str bonus). However, if a player wanted to make only one attack and treat it as a primary, I'd probably let him... I might even give him x1.5 Str if it's his only attack that round.

I don't know of anything that can turn a secondary attack into a primary... maybe give the Diabolus Improved Natural Attack?

Consider giving your Diabolus the scorpion tail spell (Races of Eberron p. 190). Attacks as a free action every round, 2d6 + Str piercing damage, Fort save vs. stun for 1 round.

peacenlove
2010-12-22, 11:13 AM
What I need from you: Feat suggestions (Gage has 3 to play with, since I use a more generous feat scheme than most people)

Combat reflexes (IIRC air blasts have reach) -> supernatural strike (ToM or one of the fiendish codexes) allows you to make attacks of opportunity vs supernatural abilities and they CAN'T avoid them (no cast defensively etc). Blind fight-> Mage slayer -> Pierce magic concealment (from complete arcane) are feats that any melee expecting magic opposition should have.
In one dragon magazine at the back pages(i dont remember which), there were feats that enhanced AoO, namely occult opportunist and canny opportunist.
Lastly Power attack (in pathfinder touch attacks cannot benefit from PA, this is not the case with 3.5 however)


, gear suggestions (just name stuff in a general price range lower than, say, 20-30k)

You cant go wrong with the classic stat boosters especially if you plan for him to be a recurring villain. Boots of striding and springing (DMG) for extra speed, Belt of battle (MIC) for extra actions, Boots of speed with their free action haste (DMG) and a cloack of the mountebank for a quick escape (again DMG)


, and other good uses of Tenebrous and Otiax.

Abuse flicker and darkness. Really do so. Pair him with minions with blindsight. The otherwise mediocre shadow elementals from the same book become very dangerous in darkness.
You also have concealment from Otiax so any Hide in plain sight ability and investment in Hide and Move Silently benefits you greatly. The collar of Umbral metamorphosis in ToM gives you a weak HipS, then you can add the Shadow template in LoM.
Tenebrous is one of my favorite vestiges. I know you are dead set on your build however a level of (cloistered) cleric with the Tenebrous apostate prestige class will give you access in the future in clerical magic (divine favor and bless will enhance your combat ability). Thats something to think on in the future however

A Ladder
2010-12-22, 01:26 PM
If you are going for multiple attacks consider Destruction Devotion (CC). Each hit reduces thier AC by 1, or 2 if your PC is level 10 and up (natural attacks of 5+ a turn = ouch!). Also, it only requires 1 turn attempt so Tenebrous can power it all day long.

I would suggest getting Multi-Attack at some point in time (MM). it basically takes all -5 natural attakcs and makes them -2. So its a +3 for all your secondary natural attacks.

If you don't allow Binder natural attacks (like the ones granted from Ipos or Chucolops) for the pre-req for Multi-Attack I suggest getting Deepspawn (lords of madness). It gives you two tentacles that are natural attacks (yey more attacks!). It is a two feat investment though...Aberration Blood and then Deepspawn. (Both from Lords of Madness)

Godskook
2010-12-22, 04:59 PM
*SNIP* Fairly comprehensive rule statements *SNIP*

You forgot to mention the feats Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike. The first gives a single iterative-like attack for a 'set' of natural weapons(So if you had 2 claws and a primary bite and took Rapid Strike(claw), you'd get bite/claw-5/claw-5/claw-10). For the Improved version, I've heard conflicting versions of what it does, with some claiming that it grants full iteratives for that set of natural weapons, while others clam it merely grants a single iterative with the other claw. YMMV, but both are worth at least 1 attack, and count as the same weapon as one or the other of the two NA you're modifying(so you don't need a better Necklace to utilize the feats).

Thurbane
2010-12-22, 06:13 PM
Although a low level vestige, Amon's Ram Attack is a nice natural weapon - it always does 1.5 STR bonus damage, even when secondary.

true_shinken
2010-12-22, 06:21 PM
If he is to be a recurring villain, you need to give him staying power and get away options. Cheap (as in low price, not as in unfair) that I like:

Anklets of Translocation. 1400gp, swift action teleport, what's not to like.
Bolt Shirt. 5k, move action 60ft teleport.
Amulet of Tears. 2kish, Temporary hit points are very good all the time, specially when you're on the losing end of the action economy.
Wyrmfang Amulet (2k) if your wizard has Stoneskin
Everyone loves wands for a reason. Wings of Cover, Dimension Hop and Swift Invisibility are all very good choices.
Belt of Battle was already mentioned, but it would be a crime not to mention it again.





If you don't allow Binder natural attacks (like the ones granted from Ipos or Chucolops) for the pre-req for Multi-Attack I suggest getting Deepspawn (lords of madness). It gives you two tentacles that are natural attacks (yey more attacks!). It is a two feat investment though...Aberration Blood and then Deepspawn. (Both from Lords of Madness)
Aberration Blood/Deepspawn require humanoid type, IIRC. Diaboli are outsiders.


You forgot to mention the feats Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike.
I believe outsiders don't qualify for those feats.