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Drakevarg
2010-12-21, 10:06 PM
I posted my Figher "fix" a few days ago, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179997) and while that's sunken a page or two down by now, I offer you this new incredibly lazy piece of cut-and-paste homebrew; the reworked Rogue.

Much like the last class, this one is based around it's namesake, with a few features from similar classes thrown in. In this case, it's Rogue/Ranger/Swashbuckler. (It also occured to me while writing this post that I might want to thow some Monk into the pot in the form of slow fall progression. Though that may be a bit much at this point.)

A quick note on the class skills, since I know this will come up; a few of the skills I felt were redundant, so for the setting I intend to use this in, they've either been rolled together or replaced with a straight ability score check, as follows:

Open Lock --> Disable Device
Intimidate --> Bluff
Search --> Spot

Descipher Script --> Intelligence
Balance --> Dexterity

Plus there's Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Use Magic Device, which as a rule I ban outright in any game I run.

Anywho, without further ado, I give you my reworked Rogue class:

-----

ROGUE
Hit Dice: d6

Class Skills
Appraise (INT)
Bluff (CHA)
Climb (STR)
Craft (INT)
Disable Device (INT)
Disguise (CHA)
Escape Artist (DEX)
Forgery (INT)
Hide (DEX)
Jump (STR)
Knowledge (INT)
Listen (WIS)
Move Silently (DEX)
Perform (CHA)
Sense Motive (WIS)
Sleight of Hand (DEX)
Spot (WIS)
Swim (STR)
Tumble (DEX)
Use Rope (DEX)
Skill Points: 8

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficience with all simple weapons, throwing axes, light hammers, handaxes, kukris, light picks, saps, shortswords, rapiers, longbows, and shortbows. The Rogue is also proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Sneak Attack (Ex): If a Rogue can catch an opponent when they are unable to defend themselves effectively from their attack, they can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the Rogue's attack deals extra damage any time their target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Rogue flanks their target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two levels thereafter. Should the Rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. A Rogue can't strike with deadly accuracy beyond that range. With a sap or unarmed strike, a Rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. They cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty, because they must make optimal use of their weapon in order to execute a sneak attack. A Rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies -- constructs and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. The Rogue must also be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
Weapon Finesse (Ex): A Rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if they do not qualify for the feat.
Grace (Ex): A Rogue gains a +1 competence bonus on Reflex Saves at 1st level. This bonus increases to +2 at 10th level and to +3 at 20th level. A Rogue loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Combat Style (Ex): At 2nd level, the Rogue must choose between two combat styles to pursue: Archery or Two-Weapon Combat. They receive the appropriate bonus feat, listed below, even if they do not meet the prerequisites for that feat:
Archery - Rapid Shot
Two-Weapon Combat - Two-Weapon Fighting
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a Rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Rogue is wearing light or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Insightful Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, a Rogue becomes able to place their finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. They apply their Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus they may have) with any weapon to which the Rogue can apply their Dexterity bonus to attack rolls. Targets immune to sneak attacks or critical hits are immune to the Rogue's insightful strike.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 4th level, a Rogue retains their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if they are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, they still lose their Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a Rogue already has Uncanny Dodge from a different class, they automatically gain Improved Uncanny Dodge instead.
Dodge Bonus (Ex): A Rogue is trained at focusing their defenses on a single opponent in melee. During their action, they may designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against melee attacks from that opponent. They can select a new opponent on any action. This bonus increases by +1 every five levels after 5th (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th). A Rogue loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load.
If the Rogue also has the Dodge feat, they need not designate the same target for this ability as for the Dodge feat. (If they designate the same target, the bonuses stack.)
Improved Combat Style (Ex): At 6th level, the Rogue's aptitude for their chosen combat style improves. They receive the appropriate bonus feat, listed below, even if they do not meet the prerequisites for that feat:
Archery - Manyshot
Two-Weapon Combat - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Acrobatic Charge (Ex): A Rogue of 7th level or higher can charge in situations where others cannot. They may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement or allies blocking their path. This ability enables them to run down steep stairs, leap down from a balconu, or tumble over tables to get to their target. Depending on the circumstance, they may still need to make appropriate checks (Jump or Tumble checks, in particular) to successfully move over the terrain.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 8th level and higher, a Rogue can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another Rogue the ability to sneak attack the Rogue by flanking them, unless the attacker has at least four more Rogue levels than the target has Rogue levels. If a character already has Uncanny Dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant Uncanny Dodge stack to determine the minimum level a Rogue must be to flank the character.
Improved Flanking (Ex): A Rogue of 8th level or higher who is flanking an opponent gains a +4 bonus on attacks instead of a +2 bonus on attacks. (Othr characters flanking with the Rogue don't gain this increased bonus.)
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 10th level and higher, while a Rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks that normally deal half damage on a successful save, henceforth they take only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Combat Style Mastery (Ex): At 11th level, the Rogue's aptitude in their chosen combat style improves again. They receive the appropriate bonus feat, listed below, even if they do not meet the prerequisites for that feat:
Archery - Improved Rapid Shot
Two-Weapon Combat - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Camouflage (Ex): A Rogue of 12th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of terrain, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.
Acrobatic Skill Mastery (Ex): At 14th level, a Rogue becomes so certain in the use of their acrobatic skills that they can use them reliably even under sever adverse conditions. When making a Jump or Tumble check, a Rogue may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent them from doing so.
Weakening Critical (Ex): A Rogue of14th level or higher who scores a critical hit or sneak attack against a creature also deals 2 points of Strength damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of terrain, a Rogue of 16th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.
Wounding Critical (Ex): A Rogue of 18th level or higher who scores a critical hit or sneak attack against a creature also deals 2 points of Constitution damage to the creature. (This damage is in addition to the Strength damage dealt by the Rogue's weakening critical class feature.) Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect.

The Rogue
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Sneak Attack +1d6, Weapon Finesse, Grace +1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|Combat Style, Evasion

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1|Sneak Attack +2d6, Insightful Strike

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Uncanny Dodge

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Sneak Attack +3d6, Dodge Bonus +1

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2|Improved Combat Style

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2|Sneak Attack +4d6, Acrobatic Charge

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+2|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Improved Flanking

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+3|Sneak Attack +5d6

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+3|Improved Evasion, Dodge Bonus +2, Grace +2

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+3|Sneak Attack +6d6, Combat Style Mastery

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4|Camouflage

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4|Sneak Attack +7d6

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+4|Acrobatic Skill Mastery, Weakening Critical

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+5|Sneak Attack +8d6, Dodge Bonus +3

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|Hide in Plain Sight

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|Sneak Attack +9d6

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|Wounding Critical

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|Sneak Attack +10d6

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+6|Dodge Bonus +4, Grace +3[/table]

-----

[Edit]: Preemptive defense on the removal of Trap Sense and Trapfinding:

Trap Sense never made sense to me, in the sense that the ability to sense them is a bizarrely specific ability. What is it about an arrow slot or a pit trap that makes those specific things more noticible to rogues? Besides, I figure Evasion and Uncanny Dodge pretty throughly covers those ends anyway.

As for Trapfinding, I just felt it was annoying and arbitrary that only rogues could find traps better than DC 20. So I removed that limitation, so technically everyone gets Trapfinding now.

[Edit]: Weapon proficiencies limited.

[Edit]: Reduced HD to d6 (d10 was a typo anyway), and removed the Wrestling Combat Style.

Glimbur
2010-12-22, 01:05 AM
Looks fine. Just a few questions:

a) All martial weapons? That seems a little off-theme for a rogue... to me they should use somewhat simpler and more subtle weapons. This is encouraged with Insightful Strike and Weapon Finesse, but the proficiencies still seem strange.

b) Why did you ditch the rogue special abilities at level 10+? Without them, the top 10 levels are pretty boring. Consider adding more class features up there.

Drakevarg
2010-12-22, 01:12 AM
Looks fine. Just a few questions:

a) All martial weapons? That seems a little off-theme for a rogue... to me they should use somewhat simpler and more subtle weapons. This is encouraged with Insightful Strike and Weapon Finesse, but the proficiencies still seem strange.

True. I'll limit it to martial weapons that can use DEX for attack rolls. So that'd be...

Throwing Axe
Light Hammer
Handaxe
Kukri
Light Pick
Sap
Light Shield
Shortsword
Rapier
Longbow
Shortbow


b) Why did you ditch the rogue special abilities at level 10+? Without them, the top 10 levels are pretty boring. Consider adding more class features up there.

Not sure. They never were to my taste. Think I'll slip in the Swashbuckler's Weakening Critical/Wounding Critical abilities. Maybe expand them to work with sneak attack?

[Edit]: Done.

Avyctes
2010-12-22, 01:32 AM
Hmmm... I don't know: it seems to me that the rogue is already quite a formidable opponent/class (especially once you have enough gp for invisibility items).

Bandededed
2010-12-22, 01:40 AM
Okay, a few things:

1. D10 HD? That's what your Warrior has too. If that's what you want, cool, but I think a d8 would do it here.

2. Grace is overkill. I mean, you've got a good reflex save already, and you're sitting on a dex pumping class. It never advances by itself, either, so it won't leave any dead levels if it disappears.

3. Wrestling combat style feels odd. It doesn't seem right on a stealthy little guy. I would, perhaps, replace it with an ability to trade sneak attack dice for an assassin's death strike on an unaware target, which would become more accessible at higher levels (less rounds of watching, less sneak attack dice, etc).

4. If it feels a bit thin a the top, you could extend the combat style to "Perfect Combat Style," and add a fourth benefit. I don't know what off the top of my head, but if you want.

Drakevarg
2010-12-22, 01:48 AM
Okay, a few things:

1. D10 HD? That's what your Warrior has too. If that's what you want, cool, but I think a d8 would do it here.

:smallconfused: Odd. I meant to put d6 here.


2. Grace is overkill. I mean, you've got a good reflex save already, and you're sitting on a dex pumping class. It never advances by itself, either, so it won't leave any dead levels if it disappears.

True. I just tossed it in with the rest of the rogue-like Swashbuckler abilities.


3. Wrestling combat style feels odd. It doesn't seem right on a stealthy little guy. I would, perhaps, replace it with an ability to trade sneak attack dice for an assassin's death strike on an unaware target, which would become more accessible at higher levels (less rounds of watching, less sneak attack dice, etc).

Given that the Wrestling Combat Style is an additive from the core Ranger ability. I think I can just remove it without fuss.


4. If it feels a bit thin a the top, you could extend the combat style to "Perfect Combat Style," and add a fourth benefit. I don't know what off the top of my head, but if you want.

If I did that, it'd only be fair if I did the same to the Warrior. But maybe.

Mulletmanalive
2010-12-22, 12:06 PM
Your lack of Capstone makes the Mulletman angry!

Mulletman SMASH

Other than that, the high level special abilities selection was one of my favourite aspects of the 3.5 version of the class and i was glad when the Pathfinder version extended this to my joy. This seems like most rogues would be a bit samy...

Drakevarg
2010-12-22, 01:48 PM
Your lack of Capstone makes the Mulletman angry!

Core Rogues don't have a capstone either.


Other than that, the high level special abilities selection was one of my favourite aspects of the 3.5 version of the class and i was glad when the Pathfinder version extended this to my joy. This seems like most rogues would be a bit samy...

*shrug* Different strokes. I personally hated those special abilities.

Lateral
2010-12-22, 05:06 PM
Core Rogues don't have a capstone either.

One of the most compelling reasons not to go Rogue 20. Generally, it's a good idea to give classes a good capstone ability, in order to give a single-classed character an incentive not to PrC or multiclass.

Drakevarg
2010-12-22, 05:26 PM
One of the most compelling reasons not to go Rogue 20. Generally, it's a good idea to give classes a good capstone ability, in order to give a single-classed character an incentive not to PrC or multiclass.

Thing is, I want to keep the class as much of a mishmash of other base classes as possible, with minimal features spun from whole cloth. The concept is, after all, to condense all the "stealthy" classes into one, without having any supernatural abilities whatsoever.

Problem is, I can't think of any such base classes in the books I own that have a decent capstone. The closest I can think of is adding the Monk's slow fall ability. But "Slow fall any distance" isn't much of a capstone.