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View Full Version : Do Favored Souls have the capacity to act against their deities wishes?



Scalenex
2010-12-22, 09:40 AM
I am creating a homebrew D&D world that I'm putting much effort into. Starting with homebrew deities and a creation story and working my way itnot he world.

A friend of my pointed out a major contradiction I wish to resolve.

Fact One: Favored souls in my world are empowered by deities to cover areas where their clerics can't reach. Because they are marked for birth by their chosen deity they are naturally in tune with their deities wishes. Because of these they are given a more free reign by their priesthoods' clerics.

Fact Two: Originally the Nine deities split up all the mortals of the world between them, but the Chaotic Neutral deity, Phyra, decided to give all mortals free will to let them choose for themselves who to worship and how to act.

Fact Three: Phyra has more favored souls than most of the other deities because her priesthoods lack of formalities make recruitment of clerics relatively difficult.

The contradiction is that Phyra who values free will wouldn't want to overide several mortals free will by making them favored souls but she depends on them to manifest her will on the material plane.

How do I make favored souls have a special tie in with their deity that means that they both have free will and at the same time the gods can afford to keep them on a longer leash than they do clerics?

Psyren
2010-12-22, 09:47 AM
Favored Souls cannot fall, at all. How's that for a long leash?

I've always viewed them as a dangerous proposition for most deities - they are an agent that cannot be controlled. Rather than requesting power from their patron, they have a divine spark inborn; in theory this should give them a closer connection to their deity, but in reality it can push them even further away as they deny their destiny or misuse their powers for mundane and selfish ends. (Or in the case of FS of evil deities, pervert their gift into serving the cause of good, kind of like Raven from Teen Titans.)

As for your contradiction, there is none. Being a favored soul puts you under no obligation to serve your deity's wishes. She would not be overriding free will, she would be enabling it.

Tiki Snakes
2010-12-22, 09:49 AM
Once the gift is given, that's it. Once the deity has infused that mortal with their favoured-soul-ness, they cannot take it back.
So essentially, a Deity would have to be careful to choose mortals who will naturally tend towards their own outlook.

Perhaps the Gods would not exactly advertise the fact. The fiction that favoured souls are manifestations of the Gods will, rather than divinely empowered free agents, would prove more useful to them.

Essentially, the Gods influence may put them in tune with their Gods will, as it has been there from birth. But if they do stray from the path, or have an 'All Gods are Bastards!' moment, then the only thing the God can do about it realistically is send other favoured souls after them. They couldn't really afford to let such incidents become public knowledge, not even the possibility of them happening, so letting their own clergy deal with it is right out.

Kind of like sparkly, halo-wearing [Mass Effect] Specters. That's how I'd take it, at least. Worth noting, perhaps, in 4e, compared to 3e, even the normal cleric or paladin can't have their powers taken away if they go a bit prodigal. In the framework of 3.5 etc, I feel that style of setup makes a lot of sense for the favoured soul to differentiate them from the prepared-casting of the Cleric and so on.

Tyger
2010-12-22, 09:58 AM
"The gods work in mysterious ways"....

Not to sound glib, but isn't that really the answer? Sure, it may appear that a particular Favored Soul is going off the route their deity would plan for them, were such possible, but mortal minds can not comprehend the plans of such beings.

So yes, the FS of the ultra-good deity goes AWOL and slaughters almost an entire village. Shepherd Tim was out in the fields that night, and survived. His conviction to route out evil in all its forms is passed on to his children, and their children... three generations later, his line produces a paladin of such power that the god's will and mandate are promoted further than they would have been had the Favored Soul not done such an atrocious act.

Just a thought.

Tiki Snakes
2010-12-22, 10:08 AM
"The gods work in mysterious ways"....

Not to sound glib, but isn't that really the answer? Sure, it may appear that a particular Favored Soul is going off the route their deity would plan for them, were such possible, but mortal minds can not comprehend the plans of such beings.

So yes, the FS of the ultra-good deity goes AWOL and slaughters almost an entire village. Shepherd Tim was out in the fields that night, and survived. His conviction to route out evil in all its forms is passed on to his children, and their children... three generations later, his line produces a paladin of such power that the god's will and mandate are promoted further than they would have been had the Favored Soul not done such an atrocious act.

Just a thought.

Just to note, I love this as an in-universe rational for such an event. As long as it isn't actually the case. :smallwink:

Zuljita
2010-12-22, 10:23 AM
I would say that if favored souls received individual attention from their respective god at birth, that the god would keep tabs on em. I would expect that a FS of a LG God who goes all chaotic evil would be getting a visit from a higher up servant of said LG God with a warning... then later consequences.

Psyren
2010-12-22, 10:25 AM
I would say that if favored souls received individual attention from their respective god at birth, that the god would keep tabs on em. I would expect that a FS of a LG God who goes all chaotic evil would be getting a visit from a higher up servant of said LG God with a warning... then later consequences.

It's just like a special agent going rogue - you need another agent to catch them. Obviously that is a situation the deity would rather avoid.

I wouldn't be surprised if a particularly powerful fallen Favored Soul would be pursued by an Aleax though. (That would be one hell of a fight in fact.)

Angry Bob
2010-12-22, 10:26 AM
Second. I've always liked the view that no matter what a favored soul does, it ultimately serves their deity somewhere along the line, unless they take drastic measures to not do so. Like, say, by killing the god in question.

megabyter5
2010-12-22, 10:50 AM
For a CN deity who preaches free will, I imagine the procedure would be to pick out random mortals, give them the power, and just see what happens. The newly minted FS knows their powers are fueled by the chaos god, but they have absolutely no commitment to that philosophy. After all, they didn't ask for the power, did they? If they end up turning into an LE tyrant and enslaving half the world, captain chaos can just stir up a little trouble by adding a couple of new Favored Souls to the pot. In fact, overthrowing an LE government is generally more chaotic in the long run than letting anarchy reign. Anarchy isn't chaos, because people will get used to it, and it just becomes orderly again.

Basically, if you want a chaos god, make him pull names out of a hat for favored souls whenever things get complacent. Mess with the balance of power, but don't tell anyone what to do with it.

Jan Mattys
2010-12-22, 11:08 AM
For a CN deity who preaches free will, I imagine the procedure would be to pick out random mortals, give them the power, and just see what happens. The newly minted FS knows their powers are fueled by the chaos god, but they have absolutely no commitment to that philosophy. After all, they didn't ask for the power, did they? If they end up turning into an LE tyrant and enslaving half the world, captain chaos can just stir up a little trouble by adding a couple of new Favored Souls to the pot. In fact, overthrowing an LE government is generally more chaotic in the long run than letting anarchy reign. Anarchy isn't chaos, because people will get used to it, and it just becomes orderly again.

Basically, if you want a chaos god, make him pull names out of a hat for favored souls whenever things get complacent. Mess with the balance of power, but don't tell anyone what to do with it.

This makes perfect sense.


"The gods work in mysterious ways"....

Not to sound glib, but isn't that really the answer? Sure, it may appear that a particular Favored Soul is going off the route their deity would plan for them, were such possible, but mortal minds can not comprehend the plans of such beings.

So yes, the FS of the ultra-good deity goes AWOL and slaughters almost an entire village. Shepherd Tim was out in the fields that night, and survived. His conviction to route out evil in all its forms is passed on to his children, and their children... three generations later, his line produces a paladin of such power that the god's will and mandate are promoted further than they would have been had the Favored Soul not done such an atrocious act.

Just a thought.

This makes perfect sense too.

ericgrau
2010-12-22, 01:24 PM
It sounds like a chaotic confusion between freedom and anarchy. Even theives have guilds and so on because they want to become established and successful. There's no reason why Phyra shouldn't be recruiting just as many clerics, especially those who love to be clerics. A duty from birth sounds more lawful to me than anything. I'd think Phyra should have fewer favored souls. Many, at the very least for the sake of a chaotic good alignment, may wish to serve Phyra but do it "in their own way". This would cause a lot of Han Solo type fighters for Phyra, where they may be unorthodox but deep down they still want to help.

Btw, how do favored souls handle alignments? Could you have an evil favored soul of Phyra? That could make the whole thing blow up.

Psyren
2010-12-22, 01:34 PM
Even theives have guilds and so on because they want to become established and successful.

There's nothing inherently chaotic about thieves or rogues (They are alignment: any, after all). Flaunting society's laws does not make you nonlawful by itself. Furthermore, most thieves' guilds I have seen tend to be vey rigid - acceptable marks, criteria for advancement, helping the authorities catch unaffiliated/freelance criminals, who to bribe, who NOT to bribe etc. A thieves' guild tends to be very lawful indeed aside from the whole stealing thing.


A duty from birth sounds more lawful to me than anything. I'd think Phyra should have fewer favored souls.

As I pointed out in my post, there is absolutely no guarantee of duty from a Favored Soul. In fact, they have even less than clerics do; a cleric can at least be denied spells, or get all his slots full of commune/augury etc. if the deity thinks he is straying; a favored soul has no such safeguards.


Btw, how do favored souls handle alignments? Could you have an evil favored soul of Phyra? That could make the whole thing blow up.

Favored Souls generally match their patrons alignment initially, but nothing stops them from changing it.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 01:46 PM
Do Favoured Souls automatically know who their divine sponsor even is?

ericgrau
2010-12-22, 01:48 PM
Thieves still tend to be chaotic, and I would find a thieves guild full of lawful members to be pretty amazing. Society in itself is pretty lawful, both guilds and deities with followers, but that doesn't mean they don't embrace chaos on the whole. Just as villains have a plan and don't burn babies purely for the fun of it (except in bad stereotyped cartoons), chaotic people don't break law & order for the sake of it but merely disregard it entirely when it is not to their advantage.

Since favored souls start out with the proper alignment most of them follow Phyra out of their own free choosing without anything for the DM to worry about. Some stray Jedi to Sith style, minus those pesky leaders on both sides of the alignment coin (no Yoda / Emperor). Favored soul-ness isn't as lawful as I might have thought since your alignment undergoes matchmaking rather than being forced into a path. But it still stands that Phyra can have plenty of clerics.

Psyren
2010-12-22, 02:23 PM
Thieves still tend to be chaotic, and I would find a thieves guild full of lawful members to be pretty amazing. Society in itself is pretty lawful, both guilds and deities with followers, but that doesn't mean they don't embrace chaos on the whole. Just as villains have a plan and don't burn babies purely for the fun of it (except in bad stereotyped cartoons), chaotic people don't break law & order for the sake of it but merely disregard it entirely when it is not to their advantage.

It is possible to be lawful and not follow society's rules at all. Monks do not follow the rules of any society save their own insular monastery for instance. They literally separate themselves from the world, so much so that they end up becoming Outsiders to it.

The same is true for Lawful Rogues. They flout rules concerning property/ownership, but have their own rigid codes as to what constitutes fair game.


Since favored souls start out with the proper alignment most of them follow Phyra out of their own free choosing without anything for the DM to worry about.

Keep in mind that starting out with her alignment is a tendency, not a requirement :smallsmile:

nedz
2010-12-22, 02:38 PM
Fact One: Favored souls in my world are empowered by deities to cover areas where their clerics can't reach. Because they are marked for birth by their chosen deity they are naturally in tune with their deities wishes. Because of these they are given a more free reign by their priesthoods' clerics.

I've always viewed Favored souls as being completely outside of the Heirarchy. Clerics of the same could easily view them as a threat, at least to the established order. This however also goes for most adventuring clerics perhaps.

Favored Souls cannot fall, at all. How's that for a long leash?
...
As for your contradiction, there is none. Being a favored soul puts you under no obligation to serve your deity's wishes. She would not be overriding free will, she would be enabling it.
What the gods giveth, the gods can take away.
It might be an amusing plot twist to have deities trade wayward Favored souls on occasion.:smallsmile:

One mechanical contradiction thats always bugged me about Favored souls is this:
Gods grant domains to Clerics which contain spells unique to that domain, often (in many pantheons) unique to that god.
Favored souls do not get access to these spells.
So you have a Favored soul of the god of storms, say, who cannot use the relevent weather spells ?

Psyren
2010-12-22, 03:14 PM
One mechanical contradiction thats always bugged me about Favored souls is this:
Gods grant domains to Clerics which contain spells unique to that domain, often (in many pantheons) unique to that god.
Favored souls do not get access to these spells.
So you have a Favored soul of the god of storms, say, who cannot use the relevent weather spells ?

It makes sense when you realize that Favored Soul power does not come (directly) from the god in question

What they have is a nonspecific divine spark instilled in them from birth. This is why they have access to general cleric spells. This also expains why the god cannot later "turn them off" - the spark has been given. Taking it away means either killing them, or making them not be a favored soul anymore.

Whether you are a favored soul of the god of fire or the god of trees does not make a difference magicallly.

nedz
2010-12-22, 06:59 PM
It makes sense when you realize that Favored Soul power does not come (directly) from the god in question

What they have is a nonspecific divine spark instilled in them from birth. This is why they have access to general cleric spells. This also expains why the god cannot later "turn them off" - the spark has been given. Taking it away means either killing them, or making them not be a favored soul anymore.

Whether you are a favored soul of the god of fire or the god of trees does not make a difference magicallly.

I'm not so sure. For me the Favoured Soul of the god of fire should, like, be able to cast fire spells. I would even go so far as to say that they should choose their spells from among those offered in the gods domain selections, in preference to the general lists. Certainly not the other way around.

Psyren
2010-12-22, 07:13 PM
I'm not so sure. For me the Favoured Soul of the god of fire should, like, be able to cast fire spells. I would even go so far as to say that they should choose their spells from among those offered in the gods domain selections, in preference to the general lists. Certainly not the other way around.

And you're welcome to houserule it that way, but RAW they wouldn't even get the Fire domain, never mind being forced to pick the handful of fire spells from the general cleric list.

Though this is a chicken-and-egg situation. Did they decide on the mechanics first and build fluff around them, or vice-versa? Were Favored Souls originally from Dragon mag or something?

nedz
2010-12-22, 07:25 PM
And you're welcome to houserule it that way, but RAW they wouldn't even get the Fire domain, never mind being forced to pick the handful of fire spells from the general cleric list.
No - if I did that no one would ever play one :smallsmile:

I don't currently have a houserule on this, but then its never come up since no one has played one. I've run a few as NPC antagonists (using RAW) but they do feel like generic clerics - with the added feature that if you dispel their buffs, they simply recast them.

I think that UA's Spontaneous Clerics fit the role far better.

Ed: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm

Safety Sword
2010-12-22, 07:48 PM
Do Favoured Souls automatically know who their divine sponsor even is?

This is a rather good point.

I usually take the view that that you are a "Favored Soul of X", meaning you are aware who it is that powered you up (so to speak).

I don't think that's actually written down anywhere though...

Koury
2010-12-22, 08:35 PM
For what its worth, there is a Favored Soul in the Expedition to Undermountain module who has gone insane and acts against his gods will. He both retains his powers and is specifically noted as retaining his good standing with his god after his death.

Scalenex
2010-12-22, 10:46 PM
In my world favored souls do know who their sponsor is. I eliminated know alignment as a spell from this world but there is a spell that reveals who the ultimate source of someones divine power is. Taking someone's advice in a thread in the distant past, the gods aren't tied to alignments that greatly, they have goals and someone can diverge in alignment while maintaining the deities goals. Favored souls almost always know who empowered them because they usually receive visions or spirit servants of the god telling them this.

For instance Mera is NG and is primarily concerned with the physical welfare of all mortals. Most of her priests are peacenik types and a few are just crusaders. A faction known as the Guardians are mostly LN have set up small provinces as essential theocratic police states where they control all aspect of their flock's lives in the name of their welfare.

Another thing is that priest is a profession not a character class. All clerics are priests but not all priests are clerics. You don't need to be able to cast spells to preside over a funeral or wedding (many are Experts). I have a nine year zodiac with one year per each deity, and most favored souls are born during their zodiac year.

Phyra's priesthood as no formal requirements. Any priest can recruit whoever they want and they are considered ordained whenever their mentor says they are ready. A relatively high percentage of her priests are non-spellcasters. Most favored souls are considered ordained by Phyra and are treated as any other priest. She has about two cleric priests per favored souls though a goodly portion of her favored souls never take up priestly duties. Her favored souls don't show up more frequently during her zodiac year though the ones that do often have more prestigious career.

Zarthus is CG, his priests are also free to train and ordain priests of whoever they want as lond as they can do the basic standarized rituals (the equivalent of five ranks of Knowledge Religion). They are also required to excel at at least one skill that can be used to benefit Zarthus' flock, usual the ability to cast divine spells, personal combat abilities, or artisic talent. Zarthus generally empowers favored souls in areas where he views people need help expressing themselves or standing up to tyrants. During his year of the Zodiac cycle, most of his favored souls empowered are the children of lawful rulers almost guaranteed to be at odds with Zarthus values. Lawful evil people avoid having children that year if they can help it. Though if the favored souls truly have free will you could have Zarthus powered tyrants.

Maylar is CE. His priests are mostly fighters, barbarians, clerics, or favored souls. He encouraging his priests to establish who is strongest. Combine this with their fighting with other groups and priestly traditions often go extinct. Maylar has to empower favored souls periodically to start anew.

Korus is N. Korus is the patron of agriculture and the natural world. His priesthood is split between priests who focus on agriculture (mostly clerics) and priests who focus on nature (mostly druids). His favored souls straddle the two groups but most live normal lives pursuing mundane professions in ecologically sustainable matters.

Mera is NG. Her priests are usually based in small communities that they recruit from. She doesn't have a lot of favored souls. She usually empowers favored souls as the children of greatly suffering people to try to help their families and communities. Usually isolated from the priesthoods, the favored souls rarely become official priests but are usually respected by them.

Greymoria is NE. She is also the goddess of magic. All of her priests are required to be spellcasters. About half her priests are arcane casters. Her favored souls are used as an assist to her main priesthood as demagogues. If Greymoria feels her priesthood is getting complacent they are used primarily as rabble rousers. If she feels her priesthood is getting too small, their primary task is recruiting.

Hallisan is LG. Hallisans regimented temples usually gather and train several priestly recruits at a time. He very rarely empowers favored souls. They are usually born into areas where is priesthood is already strong and they are usually groomed by Hallisan's priesthood to go on noble quests.

Khemra is LN. Her priesthood recruits from her temples which are usually officially working with the governments of their nation. She has very few favored souls and they are always born during her zodiac year. They have unprecedent political power as they are the only ones in the priestly hierarchy allowed to enact major changes to church laws.

Phidas is LE. He has no favored souls at all. He was badly wounded in the fight where the nine deities overthrew their progenitor and many say that because of his wounds he can't empower favored souls. His priests will not admit this weakness and claim he doesn't want favored souls because they are less regimented.

In any of these cases, favored souls going rogue can screw up their deities agenda though alignment changes in and of themselves do not necessarily cause a problem.

Grim Reader
2010-12-23, 03:13 AM
Personally, I houserules Favored Souls to be descendants of gods. Their power inborn to them, and beholden to none. Much like Sorcerers arcane powers. The BBEGs just write themselves:smallamused: