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Apophis775
2010-12-22, 06:25 PM
So, We were playing the Red Hand of Doom campaign. I am an assassin, and My friend is a wizard. We joined mid-campaign, and because of this, threw a quick back-story together. We had met after i assassinated his brother to join the assassins guild. It hadn't been a problem because, it turns out, his brother was evil. Anyway, all throughout the campaign shenanigans are happening to me. I was scouting ahead and ran into wire strung between trees, he told the party he thought i was stealing from the cart (which resulted in me not being able to embezzle as much out of our loot sales). Also, we had taken a goblin prisoner and he "escaped" in the middle of the night.

Anyway, Being an assassin and a rogue in love with money, I plotted with him to kill a wizard. He would take the wizards spell-book and I would raid the shop. However, someone tipped the guards off and they were waiting, so I wasn't able to accomplish my murder (it had been ingeniously thought as well, I would have him cast anti-magic field, and then assassinate-skill to the face 18 seconds later).

I was a bit suspicious of this at this point, but considering that i had made a deal with him to split my embezzlement, i wasn't really suspecting him.

It wasn't until we brought a map we had found to the guards that I was even more suspicious. The guards unfolded it, and one of the fighters near me noticed some ruins on the back. Now, we had been talking about explosive ruins shortly before that, and the wizard was learning a spell with his share of the loot from a local wizard. Well, as soon as we noticed the ruins I yelled "NO" and our fighter READ THEM ALOUD. Causing them to explode and kill the guard holding the map as well as injuring the fighter. Luckily, evasion is amazing and I matrix-dodged my way through space-time and avoided all damage.

We immediately ran back to to the wizard (who had been holding the map before giving it to us to bring to the guards). We told him what happened, and lightly brushed it off as a goblin trap. Until i started piecing things together. I attempted to convince the group that the wizard was the culprit, but failed miserably. However, the fighter was also putting two and two together, and he convinced the group. We confronted the wizard and he said 3 words: "I cast web" . He locked us in place, backed up a step and waited for our checks to get out of the web. On his next turn, he drank a pre-prepared potion of fly and flew out the door yelling curses at us.

Shortly after, we found out that he actually HAD taken the death of his brother seriously. He had plotted to kill me AND the healer. Also, if he had time, there would have been additional sabotage to the city before his escape allowing it to fall easily. He was communicating with goblins using dead-drops and we all just failed miserably at spotting them.

Now, one of the things we found out was that he had a high AC (for a wizard). You see, he's an expert at pulling additions to AC almost literally out of his ass (he reads lots of source-books). In a previous campaign, he was the cleric who somehow ended up being both a tank and top DPS for the campaign.


So, tl;dr NEVER TRUST A WIZARD WITH A HIGH AC. Especially if you had previously killed his brother.

Lycar
2010-12-22, 06:43 PM
... I'd strongly advise your Assassin to go grow a Sense Motive. :smalltongue:

Apart from that, congratulations on having had an awesome game. Now I'm jealous. :smallwink:

So it seems like you've got a nemesis to hunt down for your character. Any plans on how to do this? Wizards are so notoriously hard to hunt down and kill after all.

Lycar

Popertop
2010-12-22, 06:46 PM
a better strategy would be to never trust a wizard period.

Apophis775
2010-12-22, 06:49 PM
Yes, coincidentally, only a slight modification of my original plan.

Raise an army, defend the locals, defeat the goblins, seize control of the kingdom with said army, and then hunt the wizard to the ends of the earth.

Escheton
2010-12-22, 06:53 PM
Yes, coincidentally, only a slight modification of my original plan.

Raise an army, defend the locals, defeat the goblins, seize control of the kingdom with said army, and then hunt the wizard to the ends of the earth.

Why? You killed his brother, he will probably be doing the hunting now that covert ops isnt working any more.

Good luck on that btw.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 06:53 PM
It wasn't until we brought a map we had found to the guards that I was even more suspicious. The guards unfolded it, and one of the fighters near me noticed some ruins on the back. Now, we had been talking about explosive ruins shortly before that, and the wizard was learning a spell with his share of the loot from a local wizard. Well, as soon as we noticed the ruins I yelled "NO" and our fighter READ THEM ALOUD.Took me a moment to figure out what's the problem with some ruins on a map. :smallamused:

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-22, 06:57 PM
Man, my next adventure is going to have to be at some explosive ruins! :smallwink::smallamused:

Escheton
2010-12-22, 06:58 PM
Don't forget, good guys don't look at explosions, they blow **** up and walk away.

VacantPsalm
2010-12-22, 07:01 PM
What kind of mean person would do that?.....



.....



http://i56.tinypic.com/saxpis.jpg
Oh yea, me.

Anywho, you forgot to mention I wasn't a wizard... I was a MYSTIC THURGE WHO USED PRECOCIOUS (fixed!) APPRENTICE TO GET IN EARLY! Muahahaha! Ah, I'm gonna have to talk to our DM to make sure he knows how to lvl that character.

PS: I'm re-rolling as a Wizard gnome with lots of AC. :D

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-22, 07:33 PM
So what method(s) were used to generate this high AC?

Sorry, but I've constructed some high-AC stuff in the past and I'm curious as to what the wizard was using.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 07:45 PM
So what method(s) were used to generate this high AC?I think it's fair to assume that Luminous Armour didn't feature. :smalltongue:

Flickerdart
2010-12-22, 07:46 PM
Man, my next adventure is going to have to be at some explosive ruins! :smallwink::smallamused:
Explosive Ruins could be a great encounter. Rogue detects traps? "Yes, there are traps." Watch as he tries to disarm the entire ruin.

VacantPsalm
2010-12-22, 08:03 PM
So what method(s) were used to generate this high AC?

Sorry, but I've constructed some high-AC stuff in the past and I'm curious as to what the wizard was using.Actually, this character didn't have uber high AC, only 16.

However, a previous MT I had used a monk's belt to get Wis to AC, that plus Mage armor plus high dex gave me a base of 20 or 22 or something and I had a shield spell ready.... I'm forgetting something, I know that I had it at 28 and the fighter was only like 19 so I had to step up and tank a bit. (or maybe that was my vow of poverty Druid. Hm.)

For this gnome, I'm probably going to grab a mithril buckler. So, mage arm + gnome + dex + mithril buckler would be around 18 base and then a backup shield would make me have 22. Not über, but more then most people in out campaign. Really, "getting AC out of my ass" means I know how to set things up to where I get close to 20 and that's only awesome in comparison to the rest of our group.

tyckspoon
2010-12-22, 08:09 PM
-ac stuff-

tl;dr: This group is bad at AC.

Seriously, 20 is easy. Pretty much any character that makes half an effort at it should be able to get 19-20 AC, especially at a high enough level to be a Mystic Theurge (even with early entry, you're talking level 4-5.) Wear armor: 14-15 base, depending on if you're a Chain Shirt or Breastplate kinda person. Dex: 2-3 for a large number of builds, so you're at 17. Carry a shield if you're really concerned about it: 18 or 19, depending on Light/Heavy. +1 AC item: 19/20. Congratulations. Bump up the numbers 4 points if you wear full plate instead, which you can afford to do by WBL at about level 4 also.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-22, 08:11 PM
Oh, so it's reasonable stuff like that. I got the impression you were getting obnoxious AC from weird sources. Probably better that you're not if nobody else is really optimizing.

Anyway, sounds like you all had fun with these schemes. I sometimes wish some of my players had the motivation for this sort of thing.

VacantPsalm
2010-12-22, 08:48 PM
Yea, we're still relatively new to D&D and I happen to be the rules lawyer who looks through all the books. There are times when I try to get a bit crazy (1 ranger + 2 monk + 1 lion totem bar + rest ranger with Ascetic Hunter feat = two handed sword plus kicks so I have two weapon fighting AND two handed fighting plus pounce so I get full attack on charge. Lol SOB Ranger) but they shoot it down before I get a chance... Either that or they just let me play my clerics. I'm one of those people who prefers to do many things and mainly heal. (grabbing UMD with this Wiz so I can use wands of healz.)

Flickerdart
2010-12-22, 08:56 PM
Yea, we're still relatively new to D&D and I happen to be the rules lawyer who looks through all the books. There are times when I try to get a bit crazy (1 ranger + 2 monk + 1 lion totem bar + rest ranger with Ascetic Hunter feat = two handed sword plus kicks so I have two weapon fighting AND two handed fighting plus pounce so I get full attack on charge. Lol SOB Ranger) but they shoot it down before I get a chance... Either that or they just let me play my clerics. I'm one of those people who prefers to do many things and mainly heal. (grabbing UMD with this Wiz so I can use wands of healz.)
Except that you only get the regular TWF - you're not using a Monk weapon so you cannot Flurry.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 09:55 PM
I have two weapon fighting AND two handed fightingI prefer Revenant Blade for that. Pounce, Travel Devotion, HiPS - Charge, retreat, hide, repeat. :smallcool:

Weasel of Doom
2010-12-22, 10:05 PM
They thought your TWF ranger etc was too powerful so got you to play a cleric?

:smalleek:

Jack_Simth
2010-12-22, 10:07 PM
They thought your TWF ranger etc was too powerful so got you to play a cleric?

:smalleek:Every group has different optimization standards, and *not* everyone knows how to play a Cleric to it's strengths. If you have someone playing a traditional heal-bot cleric, they're not going to dominate.

Saveducks
2010-12-22, 10:11 PM
My friend played a scout rogue and was able to hit 43 ac by level 8 as long as he moved 20 feet.

tyckspoon
2010-12-22, 10:12 PM
Every group has different optimization standards, and *not* everyone knows how to play a Cleric to it's strengths. If you have someone playing a traditional heal-bot cleric, they're not going to dominate.

You can get away with quite a lot if your group still only thinks of you as 'guy who does the heals."

Greenish
2010-12-22, 10:13 PM
You can get away with quite a lot if your group still only thinks of you as 'guy who does the heals."Indeed.

In a previous campaign, he was the cleric who somehow ended up being both a tank and top DPS for the campaign.
:smallamused:

Popertop
2010-12-22, 10:27 PM
They thought your TWF ranger etc was too powerful so got you to play a cleric?

:smalleek:

yeah, my group did this too :/

VacantPsalm
2010-12-22, 10:42 PM
They thought your TWF ranger etc was too powerful so got you to play a cleric?

:smalleek:
No, I ended up going scout / ranger and am heading for order of the bow initiate. I was going to be a cleric but my DM was like, "you're always a Cleric, I want you to play something different."

Greenish
2010-12-22, 11:23 PM
am heading for order of the bow initiate.http://blog.zap2it.com/pop2it/admiral-ackbar-ole-miss-bigger.jpg

Tael
2010-12-22, 11:35 PM
:smallcool: @Greenish
I sure hope he understands.

Also, show your group the tier system, and give them handbooks for their classes. Just google "xxxxx handbook" or look on BG.

Might make the characters a bit more even.

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-22, 11:39 PM
Part of me wishes we could have such scheming in our gaming group, but our barbarian would probably squish the schemer and tell him to come back with a friendlier character.

Fenryr
2010-12-22, 11:39 PM
Awesome adventure so far. At least the Fighter was smart enough to help ya. So, how's going the new plan?


No, I ended up going scout / ranger and am heading for order of the bow initiate.

Greenish already pointed the obvious. Don't ever look at that class again. Unless your DM allows some kind of fix or the 3.0 version, don't try it. I ... fell in the same trap long time ago. 'm ashamed. I still cry some nights.

VacantPsalm
2010-12-22, 11:51 PM
http://blog.zap2it.com/pop2it/admiral-ackbar-ole-miss-bigger.jpg

All I want is the shooting without taking AoE, the rest would be ranger lvls. As usual, my AC is rather high so I want to be able to jump in at any second and tank while still using my bow. I know it's not optimal, but I prefer flexibility to raw power. (As you could probably tell with me using MT.)

Tael
2010-12-22, 11:55 PM
All I want is the shooting without taking AoE, the rest would be ranger lvls. As usual, my AC is rather high so I want to be able to jump in at any second and tank while still using my bow. I know it's not optimal, but I prefer flexibility to raw power. (As you could probably tell with me using MT.)

Is your group only using core + completes or something? You can do far better using Peerless Archer (I believe, it may have been Deepwood Sniper) that lets you actually threaten.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-22, 11:56 PM
All I want is the shooting without taking AoE, the rest would be ranger lvls. As usual, my AC is rather high so I want to be able to jump in at any second and tank while still using my bow. I know it's not optimal, but I prefer flexibility to raw power. (As you could probably tell with me using MT.)

That's at least excusable, though there is a 1st-level Ranger spell that does the same thing. Arrow Mind from Spell Compendium - lasts 1min/level, lets you fire in melee without provoking, and also lets you threaten your normal melee reach with a bow.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 11:57 PM
All I want is the shooting without taking AoE, the rest would be ranger lvls. As usual, my AC is rather high so I want to be able to jump in at any second and tank while still using my bow. I know it's not optimal, but I prefer flexibility to raw power. (As you could probably tell with me using MT.)5' step, if you have to stand toe-to-toe with the monsters, or just buy an elvencraft bow.

Though I'm not sure how you'll plan to tank. Stand next to the enemy and hope to be hit? I mean, if your damage makes you a valid threat they'll want to eliminate, well, they'll come to you.

Tael
2010-12-23, 12:01 AM
5' step, if you have to stand toe-to-toe with the monsters, or just buy an elvencraft bow.

Though I'm not sure how you'll plan to tank. Stand next to the enemy and hope to be hit? I mean, if your damage makes you a valid threat they'll want to eliminate, well, they'll come to you.

Indeed, unless you threaten, enemies will have literally no reason not to just walk past you.

Jothki
2010-12-23, 12:04 AM
Is your group only using core + completes or something? You can do far better using Peerless Archer (I believe, it may have been Deepwood Sniper) that lets you actually threaten.

I suspect that they're probably just using everything from whatever books they've bothered to buy so far.

VacantPsalm
2010-12-23, 04:29 AM
Is your group only using core + completes or something? You can do far better using Peerless Archer (I believe, it may have been Deepwood Sniper) that lets you actually threaten.

Pretty much, we can only use book we own hard copies of. (we try to keep laptops to a min so PDFs are not readily available to everyone.) We have a few other book like Arms and Equipment but not much more. No compendium, no.... lots of stuff.



5' step, if you have to stand toe-to-toe with the monsters, or just buy an elvencraft bow.

Though I'm not sure how you'll plan to tank. Stand next to the enemy and hope to be hit? I mean, if your damage makes you a valid threat they'll want to eliminate, well, they'll come to you.Sadly, yes. I'm grabbing bow blades for threatening, but overall it's just jump in and let the fighter withdraw so the cleric can do his work.

Apophis775
2010-12-23, 05:02 PM
Is your group only using core + completes or something? You can do far better using Peerless Archer (I believe, it may have been Deepwood Sniper) that lets you actually threaten.


When I DM, my rule is that SOMEONE(me, or another player) must OWN the book. I HATE looking through PDFs. I've got a bunch of books and I'm always buying new 3.5 books, but if they want something specific, they have to wait for me to want to get the book, or buy the book themselves and just bring it. Actually, Vacant wanted psionics really badly and bought the book. Then he started a campaign with us using psionics. This resulted in NONE of the DMs ever allowing psionics again.

We've got about 5-7 players, with only 5 players being "regulars" and other players occasionally becoming random clerics or wizards to balance the party on the occasions they play. Of those regular players, vacant is probably the best character builder. Some of the players don't quite seem to understand that AC is a good thing, or they are just trollin. I mean, one of them (in a diff campaign) is a desert dwarf cleric. He wears chainmail armor. And carries about 25 healing potions...

Greenish
2010-12-23, 05:28 PM
This resulted in NONE of the DMs ever allowing psionics again.Why not? :smallconfused:

Koury
2010-12-23, 05:34 PM
I HATE looking through PDFs.

Never quite understood this. :smallconfused: Being able to search the text is really nice. Need to read a feat text? Type in the name and it goes right to it. Always seemed really handy to me.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-23, 05:36 PM
Why not? :smallconfused:

Well there's a common bias with new systems that if a character is overpowered, it's because of the system in question. So if I brought the XPH to a game and made a psion that blasted for thousands of damage, it tends to be assumed that it's because psionics are overpowered and not because I'm a jerk with a lot of ranks in Knowledge (Munchkineering).

Seriously though, psionics is about on par with casting, it just tends to seem stronger to new people because it has a bit stronger of a base line. In terms of maximum potential core magic is in fact more powerful.

Anyway, for future reference all the psionics rules are available for free (legally!) in an easy to read searchable form right here (http://www.d20srd.org/). I lost my XPH years ago and I have no trouble using that site as my only reference.

Greenish
2010-12-23, 05:40 PM
Well there's a common bias with new systems that if a character is overpowered, it's because of the system in question.Well yes, but that should be well known enough that no system gets discarded with just one try.

Chilingsworth
2010-12-23, 07:16 PM
All I want is the shooting without taking AoE, the rest would be ranger lvls. As usual, my AC is rather high so I want to be able to jump in at any second and tank while still using my bow. I know it's not optimal, but I prefer flexibility to raw power. (As you could probably tell with me using MT.)

Just use the spell "Arrowmind" It's in the spell compendium. Not only does it prevent atacks of opportunity, it also allows you to take such attacks with your bow (albeit only within your "normal" reach.)

The Glyphstone
2010-12-23, 08:41 PM
Well yes, but that should be well known enough that no system gets discarded with just one try.

If it's a common bias, obviously it's not well know enough. Those of us who like alternative systems are sad, but we cope.

true_shinken
2010-12-23, 10:59 PM
Explosive Ruins and Precious Apprentice.
I've been laughing for about two minutes.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-24, 01:36 AM
Great Modthulhu: Please consider the following passage from the Forum Rules:



External Baggage
Each thread should exist in a vacuum, free from outside influences—especially those outside of these boards. What this means is that you can't carry over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion, and you can't harass anyone over anything they did in another thread, on another website's board, or in real life. If you can't check your baggage at the door, you'll end up earning an Infraction.


Hopefully, I only have to mention this once.

Apophis775
2010-12-24, 01:54 AM
Well there's a common bias with new systems that if a character is overpowered, it's because of the system in question. So if I brought the XPH to a game and made a psion that blasted for thousands of damage, it tends to be assumed that it's because psionics are overpowered and not because I'm a jerk with a lot of ranks in Knowledge (Munchkineering).

Seriously though, psionics is about on par with casting, it just tends to seem stronger to new people because it has a bit stronger of a base line. In terms of maximum potential core magic is in fact more powerful.

Anyway, for future reference all the psionics rules are available for free (legally!) in an easy to read searchable form right here (http://www.d20srd.org/). I lost my XPH years ago and I have no trouble using that site as my only reference.


I LOVE the d20srd.org site with nearly all of my heart. I just don't want to use XPH because I think it will further complicate things up. My group has the craziest luck and difficulties imaginable.

They once went into a kitchen and one member got ambushed by a dire weasel. In the skirmish that followed, the monk KO'd another party member, someone was stabbed, and 1 of the 4 people who went into the room with the weasel left it conscious to alert the party (the weasel was not dead at this point).

Then, an hour later, they decimated the recurring boss with a single shot to the face during it's dramatic escape. (crit, then max damage).

They dealt him so much damage that I would have felt bad not killing him (they took him from 8 down to like -20something with a single mega-lucky attack)

LordBlades
2010-12-24, 03:51 AM
Well there's a common bias with new systems that if a character is overpowered, it's because of the system in question. So if I brought the XPH to a game and made a psion that blasted for thousands of damage, it tends to be assumed that it's because psionics are overpowered and not because I'm a jerk with a lot of ranks in Knowledge (Munchkineering).

Seriously though, psionics is about on par with casting, it just tends to seem stronger to new people because it has a bit stronger of a base line. In terms of maximum potential core magic is in fact more powerful.




It's the natural human fear of the unknown. I've seen quite a lot of ppl complaining about the strong points of a system or other without bothering to understand the limitations of said systems. All of the below are from actual gaming groups I've played with.:

'Psionics does too much damage in a single combat. it's overpowered' (yeah, psionics can go nova way easier than vancian casters, but their endurance is much lower. They usually have the equivalent of about 2/3 of the spell slots of a regular caster).

'ToB is overpowered as they can spam their cool tricks all day long'. (true, but said tricks are way weaker than equivalent level spells. Cleric has heal as a 6th level spell, crusader has heal as a 9th level maneuver).

2xMachina
2010-12-24, 05:23 AM
Well there's a common bias with new systems that if a character is overpowered, it's because of the system in question. So if I brought the XPH to a game and made a psion that blasted for thousands of damage, it tends to be assumed that it's because psionics are overpowered and not because I'm a jerk with a lot of ranks in Knowledge (Munchkineering).

Seriously though, psionics is about on par with casting, it just tends to seem stronger to new people because it has a bit stronger of a base line. In terms of maximum potential core magic is in fact more powerful.

Anyway, for future reference all the psionics rules are available for free (legally!) in an easy to read searchable form right here (http://www.d20srd.org/). I lost my XPH years ago and I have no trouble using that site as my only reference.

I love Psionics, but if I'm optimizing, they WON'T do.
With decent optimization, Arcane is much stronger than Psionics. (So long Psionics aren't allowed the recharge trick, which is more than what I'd ever use)

LordBlades
2010-12-24, 05:57 AM
I love Psionics, but if I'm optimizing, they WON'T do.
With decent optimization, Arcane is much stronger than Psionics. (So long Psionics aren't allowed the recharge trick, which is more than what I'd ever use)


Psionics has quite a few fields in which it can hold it's own reasonably vs. magic.

For example, it's very hard to surpass a well built kineticist at blasting.
I've played with psionics in many high-op games, and I've never felt psions to fall too much behind the power curve (also, StP erudites are ridiculously strong).

2xMachina
2010-12-24, 08:15 AM
Psionics has quite a few fields in which it can hold it's own reasonably vs. magic.

For example, it's very hard to surpass a well built kineticist at blasting.
I've played with psionics in many high-op games, and I've never felt psions to fall too much behind the power curve (also, StP erudites are ridiculously strong).

Well, you said it.

Oh, they're rather good. It's very easy for them to be among the best, but arcane takes the top spot for maximum potential (except for a few areas).

I'm not sure which build you're thinking of, so I don't know how they compare to the Mailman and Cindy.

(Also, Psionics require extra PP to do damage. Orb of X scales with CL, but psionics don't. Of course, they get to use up their PP on top lvl powers. Another bonus is that you can nova)

StP is very good, I admit. Extremely versatile (provided you get the right reading of UPpD). But then again, they're getting spells 2 lvls late. (Not to mention they're arcane spells in the first place)

Psionics also don't have very nice PrCs. There's just not enough support, while Arcane gets all kinds of feats, PrCs and spells. And Psionic is built to be balanced, after seeing arcane's crazy things.

They make really nice chars to play, but if I'm optimizing for the heck of it, I end up choosing arcane.

(Hmm... maybe I'm using the word Optimization differently. When I say optimizing, it's banging out a build for the heck of it, rather than for a campaign. I gravitate against stuff that I think is always banned though. Nova Recharge is pretty crazy.)

Apophis775
2010-12-24, 02:45 PM
'Psionics does too much damage in a single combat. it's overpowered' (yeah, psionics can go nova way easier than vancian casters, but their endurance is much lower. They usually have the equivalent of about 2/3 of the spell slots of a regular caster).



The thing is my group rarely does more than one combat at a time unless forced. THey will do a combat, maybe a second one, then run back to town as soon as they feel their spells are low. This basically means that letting them use psionics lets them roll through a combat or two with no problem, then flee back to town.