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Lans
2010-12-22, 06:53 PM
A continuation of the derailment of this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138013&page=2
The moderator said that somebody could continue the discussion in a new thread and I was in the middle of posting a reply when it got closed so I had to continue the discussion :smalltongue:

The discussion was on what tier should several classes be.

Dragon Shaman: This is a jack of all trades type class, that allows it to give boosts that are alright in several areas, the share adaptation ability, and the healing to half with its lay on handsish ability makes it a decent support character.

The breath weapon, and Commune ability, wings, and natural armor boost give it a bit of nonstandard offense, information gathering, and movemet mode that things like the fighter and monk don't have a good access to.

Optimization wise it can become good healer with theuraputic mantle, and good blaster with the metabreath feats, and entangling breath.

Samurai is T5 or maybe very low tier 4. The high will save, skills, and daisho make of for the crappier feats, and its skill list is a bit better so it should be useful out of combata out of combat.

Shaman is probably T2, its spell list is good, but not cleric good. Its likely going to overshadow the cleric in a typical game. How ever it does get an animal companion and some druid spells so it might just be lower tier 1.

Marshal is largely tier 4 due to its double rainbow in diplomacy, and gives a large bonus opposed checks, charge attacks, and a bit of a bonus to hit.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 07:35 PM
Let us continue then.

Dragon Shaman: This is a jack of all trades type classIt's not even near jack even in the areas it seems to cover. I'd say it's an 8 of many trades, but then I'm feeling mighty generous.

Samurai is T5 or maybe very low tier 4. The high will save, skills, and daisho make of for the crappier feats, and its skill list is a bit better so it should be useful out of combata out of combat.The Daisho is basically just yet another preset feat, and given that you have to select a very short list to pick from with your scarce bonus feats, well, I really don't think the skills can get it to t4. It's marginally better than a core-only fighter, but once you move out of core a fighter's options explode.

Useful for entering some of OA's PrCs though.


Shaman is probably T2, its spell list is good, but not cleric good. Its likely going to overshadow the cleric in a typical game. How ever it does get an animal companion and some druid spells so it might just be lower tier 1.Yeah, I'd tend to go with low-ish tier 1. Prepared casting, decent list with some help from domains, TU for DMM and other tricks.

Marshal is largely tier 4 due to its double rainbow in diplomacy, and gives a large bonus opposed checks, charge attacks, and a bit of a bonus to hit.Marshal has a good level, and then 19 gradually worsening ones. The Major aura bonuses are weak, Grant Move action uses are seriously stingy, and once you've picked a handful of auras you're left with taking worse and worse ones.

Now, much like Dragon Shaman, marshal has it's actions free after giving it's minor bonuses to allies. Too bad marshal has even less to do with said actions.

Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).

woodenbandman
2010-12-22, 07:46 PM
Yeah but expert has Use Magic Device on its skill list, therefore it should be higher than samurai/dragon shaman/marshal. :D

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-22, 09:30 PM
Question: What about the Dragonfire Adept? To my knowledge, it has yet to be tiered. And since people seem to generally prefer it to it's shaman bro.

Second question: Are the samurai and shaman not 3.0 classes? I'm sorry, this should be obvious, but I miss things a lot. Did OA ever get updated?

Now, to contribute:

Samurai definitely seems like tier 5 to me. The samurai, while seemingly a fighter with better skills and a better weapon, misses out on the alternate class features of the fighter, notably dungeon crasher, but there are others as well.

Urpriest
2010-12-22, 09:33 PM
Question: What about the Dragonfire Adept? To my knowledge, it has yet to be tiered. And since people seem to generally prefer it to it's shaman bro.

Second question: Are the samurai and shaman not 3.0 classes? I'm sorry, this should be obvious, but I miss things a lot. Did OA ever get updated?

Now, to contribute:

Samurai definitely seems like tier 5 to me. The samurai, while seemingly a fighter with better skills and a better weapon, misses out on the alternate class features of the fighter, notably dungeon crasher, but there are others as well.

OA was updated via Dragon (318 I believe). There were some bits missing though.

I generally hear DFAs described as a Tier 3: like the Warlock, but with enough utility and native damage dealing (Entangling Exhalation for example) to bump it up a tier.

Thrawn183
2010-12-22, 09:44 PM
I would say it's less about the increased utility of a DFA and more that they have such a solid chassis in comparison to the Warlock. They have d8 HD and are a Con focused class. They have great saves (especially if you use Endurance>Steadfast Determination). It's not that they contribute a huge amount in every single scenario, it's that they contribute decently well and are freaking impossible to kill.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 09:48 PM
I'm not sure if DFA quite makes it to tier 3, but if not, it's a strong tier 4.

MeeposFire
2010-12-22, 10:04 PM
DFA provides amazing battlefield control which is a great thing to have in a party.

It can easily have high will saves, epic fort, sky high HP, and since you do not need attack rolls high AC is within easy grasp (just add twilight, mithril, or whatever. Note you do not need this at low levels just grab armor and shields and not use invocations in combat). Your only weakness is reflex saves but with its hp its not so bad.

It has access to UMD and a great skill list in general.

In the original posts terms DFAs can

1) Do one thing well in battlefield control

2) If battle field control is not useful (in its case that is very rare) then they can put out some damage breath weapons or use UMD to get through it.

3) You can so entangle, slow, solid fog, a group of foes to death that you party can just pick them off at their leisure at times. This can be easilly handled but that is the definition of tier 3.

4) Great out of combat so you never feel too bad.

It can not be any higher in tiers since it lacks the sheer power to do it.

I think it is tier 3 lowish if you want to get that detailed.

Zaq
2010-12-22, 10:11 PM
DFA is right on the cusp of T3 and T4. Assuming basic optimization (you did take Entangling Exhalation and Endure Exposure, right?), it's hard to make them feel totally useless in any given situation (possible, but far from automatic). And, as stated, they can make themselves very hard to kill without actually sacrificing that much. I wouldn't object to them being placed in either tier, but they're very close to the line in either case.

DarkEternal
2010-12-22, 10:24 PM
How about the Sha'ir, if anyone knows of the class. It's from the Al-Qadim setting, and it was updated for 3.5 in one of the Dragon Magazines. I read a bit about it, and it seems to have a potential to be really, really awesome(can have any wizard-sorceror spell in existence, has an awesome genie familiar and can get domain spells from all elemental domains, Knowledge and something else), though it also is a bit time consuming since the genie literally has to bugger off and go to planes to ge the spells you requested from him.

Weasel of Doom
2010-12-22, 10:27 PM
I think that DFA is a solid Tier 3.

Meepos demonstrated why they may fit in T3.

T4 has phrases like

"often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" - which I don't think fits DFA. Generally useful in combat due to good battlefield control and/or debuffs (not so good alone but how often is that the case?); good AoE damage to clear hordes of mooks; social skills as class skills, beguiling influence and charm make a decent face for social interaction; spot, listen, voidsense and invisibility make a decent scout; knowledge skills and draconic knowledge make for a good sage.

"Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter" - A lot of encounters with numerous mooks can be easily dealt with by a DFA and I don't think it's rare for a DFA to completely incapacitate single opponents.

"their abilities may sometimes leave them useless" - I think it's very rare for a DFA to be useless as long as invocations are chosen effectively. Certainly a DFA who chooses purely combat focused invocations and breath effects would often be useless but so would a wizard with purely direct damage spells.

So umm that's why I don't think a DFA is T4

Greenish
2010-12-22, 10:31 PM
I think that DFA is a solid Tier 3.

<stuff>

So that's why I don't think a DFA is T4Okay, I'm sold.

MeeposFire
2010-12-22, 10:32 PM
DFAs are Tier 1 in fun just so you know...

My Meepo I used in a game was a DFA kobold still a group favorite.

Weasel of Doom
2010-12-22, 10:58 PM
DFAs are Tier 1 in fun just so you know...


Definately, for you and the rest of the party. They can almost always do something useful but even what they do best lets the rest of the party play a role.

/DFA cheerleading

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-22, 11:08 PM
Definately, for you and the rest of the party. They can almost always do something useful but even what they do best lets the rest of the party play a role.

/DFA cheerleading

Truly all people should play the Dragonfire Adept, imagine it now... a world where everyone could breathe fire... :smalltongue: Nah I like them too.



I'm going to second Shaman being in tier 1, turn undead, animal companion, and a good spell list, which all together allows for all sorts of 'fun.' I also personally like the Spirit Sight, but that really isn't much for the tiers. I wonder if there's something particularly exploitable with DMM and an animal companion on the same character...

Greenish
2010-12-22, 11:16 PM
I wonder if there's something particularly exploitable with DMM and an animal companion on the same character...Share Spells + DMM persisted buffs = two great bashers at the price of one.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-22, 11:18 PM
Share Spells + DMM persisted buffs = two great bashers at the price of one.

Bingo! Do Shaman's have access to Divine Power?

Tael
2010-12-22, 11:23 PM
Druids can get DMM too you know, just need a 1 level dip in a PrC.

Lans
2010-12-22, 11:26 PM
Let us continue then.
It's not even near jack even in the areas it seems to cover. I'd say it's an 8 of many trades, but then I'm feeling mighty generous.
I'd say its a jack in being a support character, and its commune ability is top notch as far as information gathering goes.



The Daisho is basically just yet another preset feat, and given that you have to select a very short list to pick from with your scarce bonus feats, well, I really don't think the skills can get it to t4. It's marginally better than a core-only fighter, but once you move out of core a fighter's options explode.

Useful for entering some of OA's PrCs though.
The Daisho ability is also a free masterwork weapon at level 1, and I believe was errated to either gain the lawful ability or to get past lawful damage reduction for free at level 4. Its also the safety net that it gives when DMs are being stingy with the loot or are running a low magic campaign. When your level 13 and the DM has given the party access to under 100k gp of low level magical loot and you have a +5 sword its a huge boon.
Its not as potent as Ancestral Relic, but there is no guarantee that that book is going to be allowed, and it has advantages over it.

Don't underestimate the skills its the difference between having nothing to do during social scenes and having useful interaction.
NPC *talk,talk,talk*
Fighter twiddles thumbs
Samurai "The lying liar lies!"

This is in addition to the higher will save.
Its all of these things that make me think that its better overall than the fighter. Not in combat, but in social interactions, not being color sprayed, and not being screwed over by the DM.


Yeah, I'd tend to go with low-ish tier 1. Prepared casting, decent list with some help from domains, TU for DMM and other tricks.

It has tricks, but its lacking in the nuke compartment compared to the cleric. I honestly don't think its going to matter in the least in most games. I think I would say they probably average to be about the same.


Marshal has a good level, and then 19 gradually worsening ones. The Major aura bonuses are weak, Grant Move action uses are seriously stingy, and once you've picked a handful of auras you're left with taking worse and worse ones.

The minor auras are awesome, and provide a double rainbow with diplomacy, intimidate and bluff. This also gives a bonus to your buddies sense motive, and the scouts hide and move silently. It gets enough auras to be slamming bonuses to damn near everything the party is doing.

The marshal is also an extremely SAD in what it does, with its focus on Charisma.



Now, much like Dragon Shaman, marshal has it's actions free after giving it's minor bonuses to allies. Too bad marshal has even less to do with said actions. With Imperious Command it has a good ability with its charisma, add in nets and tangle foot bags is has some good options.


Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).

Actually
capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining


is also tier 4.



Yeah but expert has Use Magic Device on its skill list, therefore it should be higher than samurai/dragon shaman/marshal. :D
Actually the Marshal is better at UMD than an expert. 5 Charisma+5Aura+2 CC >5Charisma+4 Ranks

Greenish
2010-12-22, 11:26 PM
Bingo! Do Shaman's have access to Divine Power?From a domain, yes.

[Edit]:
I'd say its a jack in being a support character, and its commune ability is top notch as far as information gathering goes.It's not a very good support character.

The Daisho ability is also a free masterwork weapon at level 1, and I believe was errated to either gain the lawful ability or to get past lawful damage reduction for free at level 4. Its also the safety net that it gives when DMs are being stingy with the loot or are running a low magic campaign.Maybe, but in a normal campaign it's not much anything.


Don't underestimate the skills its the difference between having nothing to do during social scenes and having useful interaction.
NPC *talk,talk,talk*
Fighter twiddles thumbs
Samurai "The lying liar lies!"Skills are nice, yes. I like skills. Still, just having a few interaction skills and a full BAB won't quite cut it at tier 4. Fighters can do it too, with the ACF.


Its all of these things that make me think that its better overall than the fighter. Not in combat, but in social interactions, not being color sprayed, and not being screwed over by the DM.Being somewhat competent at social interaction and barely better than Warrior in combat isn't tier 4.

The minor auras are awesome, and provide a double rainbow with diplomacy, intimidate and bluff. This also gives a bonus to your buddies sense motive, and the scouts hide and move silently. It gets enough auras to be slamming bonuses to damn near everything the party is doing.But just one at the time. Just adding your Cha bonus to some stuff doesn't alone qualify for doing party support reasonably well, in my opinion.


The marshal is also an extremely SAD in what it does, with its focus on Charisma.Because it doesn't do much anything.

With Imperious Command it has a good ability with its charisma, add in nets and tangle foot bags is has some good options.A barbarian does better intimidation, in addition to being a damage machine. (Now that's a tier 4.) Tanglefoot bags, nets and UMD don't really feature, anyone can use those, even if the marshal is more inclined to do so due to lack of relevant options the class offers for using it's actions.


Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).
Actually
capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shiningis also tier 4.Yes, and I argued that they can't, and thus aren't.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-22, 11:40 PM
Druids can get DMM too you know, just need a 1 level dip in a PrC.

Yeah, Shaman's are probably worse off compared to Druids, but it's definitely a thing going for the Shaman too.


From a domain, yes.

Thought so, now I can't think of anything else specifically a Shaman could do, but it really seems that Shaman > Favored Soul, automatically having Turn Undead for DMM sharing spells with an animal companion, and knowing their entire list really seem to put them ahead.

Defiant
2010-12-22, 11:44 PM
Speaking of both marshal and dragon shaman, neither is capable of doing one relevant* thing very well, nor doing many things to a reasonable degree of competent, which would be required for tier 4. It is my humble opinion that both sit firmly in t5 (though higher than expert or soul knife).

I firmly disagree. Marshals are the strongest non-magical-based class, possibly strongest class at all the social interactions. With massive Charisma, a Charisma bonus to Charisma, and full investment into that, you can ensure that your Marshal can at least do well the thing it was meant to.

The fact that it does just about nothing else well is why it stays at Tier 4.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 11:53 PM
I firmly disagree. Marshals are the strongest non-magical-based class, possibly strongest class at all the social interactions."Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed". :smallamused:

Zonugal
2010-12-23, 12:23 AM
"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed". :smallamused:

The rearing & training of animals also falls under the Marshal's domain and they do it well. Also let us not forget they possess all the knowledge skills so a boost from Knowledge Devotion isn't to be overlooked.

Greenish
2010-12-23, 12:32 AM
The rearing & training of animals also falls under the Marshal's domain and they do it well.Doesn't really fall into the system. A commoner might rear a battletitan at level 9, but that hardly means they're not tier 6.

Also let us not forget they possess all the knowledge skills so a boost from Knowledge Devotion isn't to be overlooked.Assuming they've got points to burn, they can compete with Warriors.

An Expert can do UMD, Handle Animal, face skills, smattering of knowledge and slap iaijutsu focus and autohypnosis on top of that. Marshal is better, yeah, but not enough to go up a tier.

Lans
2010-12-23, 12:55 AM
Doesn't really fall into the system. A commoner might rear a battletitan at level 9, but that hardly means they're not tier 6.
Assuming they've got points to burn, they can compete with Warriors.
Err, the training of animals is something that Marshals Excel at, or at the very least better than most classes that just have the skill. So while the commoner is rearing the battle titan the marshal is adding the warbeast template to it.


An Expert can do UMD, Handle Animal, face skills, smattering of knowledge and slap iaijutsu focus and autohypnosis on top of that. Marshal is better, yeah, but not enough to go up a tier. The marshal is better at any skill that he has as a class skill than anything short of a factotum or courtier, due to what amounts to the super skill focus auras that he gets. Not to mention things like art of war which allows him to be awesome with a reach weapon, and to boost the actual tripping person to heck.

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 01:01 AM
"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed". :smallamused:

That sounds like a D&D Jeopardy category...:smallbiggrin:

Lans
2010-12-23, 01:50 AM
"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed". :smallamused:
I think you underestimate how much social interactions occur in some peoples game. Sometimes its more than half.

Koury
2010-12-23, 01:53 AM
I think you underestimate how much social interactions occur in some peoples game. Sometimes its more than half.

I'm just going off memory here, but social interactions are only about 1/3rd of the weighting for the tier list, if I recall correctly.

Urpriest
2010-12-23, 01:53 AM
I think you underestimate how much social interactions occur in some peoples game. Sometimes its more than half.

That's a DM who really overuses Antimagic fields, then.

Lans
2010-12-23, 02:03 AM
That's a DM who really overuses Antimagic fields, then.

Well the Marshal is good with out the Antimagic field, but that just allows him to be better than the cleric.

Amphetryon
2010-12-23, 07:10 AM
How about the Sha'ir, if anyone knows of the class. It's from the Al-Qadim setting, and it was updated for 3.5 in one of the Dragon Magazines. I read a bit about it, and it seems to have a potential to be really, really awesome(can have any wizard-sorceror spell in existence, has an awesome genie familiar and can get domain spells from all elemental domains, Knowledge and something else), though it also is a bit time consuming since the genie literally has to bugger off and go to planes to ge the spells you requested from him.

The Sha'ir's method of spell acquisition is really wonky, bordering on unplayable in a time-crunched low level game. They need their gen to wander away for up to 6 hours to retrieve a 1st level divine spell, though only up to 4 rounds for an already identified arcane spell. They need to then cast those spells learned within the hour, or have them vanish into the æther. On the other hand, they can access 9th level spells from arcane or divine sources. In the right gaming group - one that plays with the 15 minute work day as an expectation - they might be high Tier 2, held back only by their casting method. In a group that starts at low levels and trudges slowly through the dungeon while the trapmonkey does his thing by mundane means, a Sha'ir is essentially ballast for several levels, and could be considered low Tier 4 or worse.

They're incredibly swingy.

DarkEternal
2010-12-23, 10:36 AM
The Sha'ir's method of spell acquisition is really wonky, bordering on unplayable in a time-crunched low level game. They need their gen to wander away for up to 6 hours to retrieve a 1st level divine spell, though only up to 4 rounds for an already identified arcane spell. They need to then cast those spells learned within the hour, or have them vanish into the æther. On the other hand, they can access 9th level spells from arcane or divine sources. In the right gaming group - one that plays with the 15 minute work day as an expectation, they might be high Tier 2, held back only by their casting method. In a group that starts at low levels and trudges slowly through the dungeon while the trapmonkey does his thing by mundane means, a Sha'ir is essentially ballast for several levels, and could be considered low Tier 4 or worse.

They're incredibly swingy.

I would agree, though, really, the divine spells should really be something that the shi'ar has an option to get, but doesn't really have to get, it's just there. He should, in my opinion, essentially be an arcane spell caster and he can get a whole crapload of spells(though the entire "what spells he knows and what spells he doesn't know" concept is a bit confusing to me, since I don't get how you choose which spells you do know, aside from levelling).

I would say he's like, all casters, a bit tougher to play on the first few levels, mainly because his spells don't remain inside of him for a long time(I think it's an hour per caster level or something like that), but afterwards, I can see him doing a whole crapload of stuff.

Psyren
2010-12-23, 12:30 PM
Anyone do the Dragonlance classes yet?

Mystic (DLCS pg. 47) is a solid Tier 2, bordering on T1. They're like a favored soul (i.e. spontaneous casting from cleric list) except they are Wis-SAD and get a domain. No other class features (like a Sorcerer) so PrC as fast as possible.

Furthermore, their domain spell known is in addition to their regular spells known, rather than replacing one of them. This means they get one extra spell known over a sorcerer at each level. Their only limitation is not being able to take the Magic domain (boo-hoo!)

Tyndmyr
2010-12-23, 03:11 PM
Marshal has a good level, and then 19 gradually worsening ones. The Major aura bonuses are weak, Grant Move action uses are seriously stingy, and once you've picked a handful of auras you're left with taking worse and worse ones.

Now, much like Dragon Shaman, marshal has it's actions free after giving it's minor bonuses to allies. Too bad marshal has even less to do with said actions.

However, these sorts of non-action using classes are really cool for gestalt.

I agree, not really standard tier criteria, but something to keep in mind.

Psyren
2010-12-23, 04:05 PM
In the vein of Dragon Shaman//Dragonfire Adept and Knight//Marshall low-tier gestalts, what would it be good to gestalt Warlocks with to boost their power for a more heroic game? I keep coming back to Shadowcasters, but part of me feels like that pigeonholes their flavor. Is there a more flavorful option I'm not considering? If not, how can I reconcile shadowcaster flavor with flashier/fiendish warlocks?

Urpriest
2010-12-23, 04:17 PM
In the vein of Dragon Shaman//Dragonfire Adept and Knight//Marshall low-tier gestalts, what would it be good to gestalt Warlocks with to boost their power for a more heroic game? I keep coming back to Shadowcasters, but part of me feels like that pigeonholes their flavor. Is there a more flavorful option I'm not considering? If not, how can I reconcile shadowcaster flavor with flashier/fiendish warlocks?

Well Binder is a favorite, but if you want something more T4/lower...

Hexblade doesn't fit too badly.

Psyren
2010-12-23, 04:31 PM
Well Binder is a favorite, but if you want something more T4/lower...

Hmm... Binder doesn't really need the help, plus the vestiges don't really fit in with the fiendish or fey backgrounds. Vestiges feel like their own power source (which is exactly how they treated the 4e Binder, by making it a separate warlock pact.) I would want something that could still jive with the various 3.5 sources of Warlock power.

My goal would be for these gestalts to bring their component classes to high T3, perhaps even low T2. Binders can get there on their own, perhaps with just a tiny tweak to some of the existing vestiges.


Hexblade doesn't fit too badly.

Too martial... but the curses bit fits like a glove. Is there a more casty homebrew/3rd-party that of the Hexblade? (Not the PF Witch, that's also too powerful already.) Maybe something that drops the weapon/armor proficiencies for more cursing ability.

true_shinken
2010-12-23, 04:43 PM
Too martial... but the curses bit fits like a glove. Is there a more casty homebrew/3rd-party that of the Hexblade? (Not the PF Witch, that's also too powerful already.) Maybe something that drops the weapon/armor proficiencies for more cursing ability.
Warlock//Hexblade is perfect for glaivelocks. You get a familiar by default to use a rod of bodily restoration on you (because of hellfire). Full BAB makes eldritch glaive a lot more powerful. d10 Hit Dice is tasty. Hexes will mean your essences will do their debuffing a lot more often.
Sadly, I think even a Warlock//Hexblade would still be around T3.

What about the sohei? 3/4 BAB, some sort of whirling frenzy, bonus feats, spells... Dunno, I want to say T4.

Psyren
2010-12-23, 04:49 PM
Warlock//Hexblade is perfect for glaivelocks. You get a familiar by default to use a rod of bodily restoration on you (because of hellfire). Full BAB makes eldritch glaive a lot more powerful. d10 Hit Dice is tasty. Hexes will mean your essences will do their debuffing a lot more often.
Sadly, I think even a Warlock//Hexblade would still be around T3.

Hmm, and no ASF in light armor. Pity about that fort save, but I think Warlock/Hexblade is the best official low-tier gestalt option.
Maybe a more caster-focused Hexlock can sacrifice full BAB for more curses/day with a custom feat or something.

It's growing on me, I'll take it :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-12-23, 04:57 PM
What about the sohei? 3/4 BAB, some sort of whirling frenzy, bonus feats, spells... Dunno, I want to say T4.It's not better than paladin. The spell list is poor, Ki Frenzy is okay at best (no scaling, smaller bonuses than rage, penalty to medium BAB). Mettle is very cool, even if there aren't so many will/fort half spells, but there are better ways to gain it.


Overall, I'm not sure it'd make a solid melee threat, and it doesn't have much else going for it.

O_Y
2010-12-23, 05:09 PM
Whirling Frenzy doesn't work with spells or any skills, frenzy doesn't scale and probably doesn't stack with Haste, the framework is weak for a melee character and the spell list is pretty bad. I'd put it alongside the Aristocrat, whichever you judge that to be.

(Even the Soulknife has more and more interesting options, both in and out of combat, and it multiclasses/PrCs better.)

Iajitsu Focus and Mettle are kind of interesting, but they don't make a class.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-23, 05:15 PM
I had a fun time playing a sōhei before, and it didn't seem too bad... In a higher optimized group though, I think the flavor of Paladin/Monk really shows where it ends up power wise...

Psyren
2010-12-23, 05:21 PM
My boosted-power gestalt list so far:

Knight//Marshall
Dragon Shaman//DFA
Psyrogue//Lurk
Warlock//Hexblade
Rogue//Swashbuckler
Divine Mind//Society Mind

Any more?

Urpriest
2010-12-23, 06:34 PM
My boosted-power gestalt list so far:

Knight//Marshall
Dragon Shaman//DFA
Psyrogue//Lurk
Warlock//Hexblade
Rogue//Swashbuckler
Divine Mind//Society Mind

Any more?

Soulborn//Soulknife is popular, though I personally think the fluff doesn't match as well as its proponents think.

noiadodh
2010-12-23, 06:35 PM
what would be a good pair for a fighter (besides monk)?

Zonugal
2010-12-23, 06:40 PM
what would be a good pair for a fighter (besides monk)?

What about Warmage?

Psyren
2010-12-23, 06:58 PM
Soulborn//Soulknife is popular, though I personally think the fluff doesn't match as well as its proponents think.

Ah, I forgot that one. And I think the flavor is spot on; they might as well be meldshapers, cause they sure as hell aren't psionic.

Roll the Incarnum Blade abilities in to give them a Blademeld and you've bridged the gap, plus given them a nice power boost.


what would be a good pair for a fighter (besides monk)?

Noble for the leader-by-example maybe, or Expert to represent the more resourceful lone wolf Badass Normal.

Jarrick
2010-12-23, 07:42 PM
What about the shadowcaster and the wilder? Im also curious about any of the Dragonmech classes and the classes in the Dragon Compendium.

Zaq
2010-12-23, 08:08 PM
The shadowcaster is T4 as written. They have to sacrifice a lot to get any decent utility, and it's relatively easy for them to run out of ammo (they make non-specialist wizards look like marathon runners). The big thing with them is the opportunity cost of every mystery they take. It's quite tricky for them to get any sort of general utility without resigning themselves to Crossbow Mode.

The wilder I would put at the very bottom of T2. They can do almost anything a psion can (with much of the same world-breaking power that is the hallmark of T2), and indeed they can often do it better than the psion can. However, their critically low number of powers known and reduced access to discipline-specific powers makes them a lot more limited—but the powers they DO get are still good enough to hit T2. They are, after all, 9th level casters (er, manifesters) with access to the very respectable psion list. That goes a very long way, honestly.

What's the consensus on spirit shamans, again? Close to the top of T2, right?

noiadodh
2010-12-23, 09:02 PM
My boosted-power gestalt list so far:

Knight//Marshall
Dragon Shaman//DFA
Psyrogue//Lurk
Warlock//Hexblade
Rogue//Swashbuckler
Divine Mind//Society Mind

Any more?

which tier would each of these options be? to use partial gestalt (aiming for low tier 3 / high tier 4) is viable or its better to homebrew base classes?

Defiant
2010-12-23, 09:25 PM
"Social interactions in Anti-magic Field" falls under the heading of "can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed". :smallamused:

Umm... I doubt that the social part of D&D is something that is very often not needed. It is an important part of the game, and being the absolute grand-master of bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and anything Charisma, definitely fills a D&D niche.

The "non-magical-user" was simply a qualifier, it was not a point-out to AMF or anything like that. Just like a Bard can be completely outclassed by a Wizard, so might a Marshal; but then again, he might not. The fact that Marshal could, in many situations, be better than a Wizard or a Cleric in social encounters, is a boon that displays the Marshal's niche.

I will quote the Tier thread, and this basically defines the Marshal:


Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise...

The Marshal is capable of doing all social encounters and interactions extremely well. The problem is that the class does not offer much of anything else. With supreme optimization, you can outfit the Marshal to be somewhat useful in combat, but with the same degree of optimization he'll be massively outshined by most of everything else.

Maybe your game doesn't include any social encounters whatsoever, and all you do is hack and slash. But most games do have these things, and in these games, the Marshal doesn't just do very well, he excels at it.

Just because a class can be completely overwhelmed or replaced by a tier 1 or 2, does not automatically make it a tier 5 class. That's why we have a tier system.

true_shinken
2010-12-23, 09:31 PM
It's not better than paladin. The spell list is poor, Ki Frenzy is okay at best (no scaling, smaller bonuses than rage, penalty to medium BAB). Mettle is very cool, even if there aren't so many will/fort half spells, but there are better ways to gain it.
It scales with the Dragon Magazine update, IIRC. But you're probably correct about it being no better than a Paladin.

Zonugal
2010-12-23, 10:12 PM
My boosted-power gestalt list so far:

Knight//Marshall
Dragon Shaman//DFA
Psyrogue//Lurk
Warlock//Hexblade
Rogue//Swashbuckler
Divine Mind//Society Mind

Any more?

So maybe...?

Samurai/Incarnate
Barbarian/Totemist
Factotum/Warblade
Fighter/Warmage
Monk/Psychic Warrior
Artificer/Erudite

Defiant
2010-12-23, 10:19 PM
Sorcerer/Incantatrix//Pixie/Marshal :smallbiggrin:

Tael
2010-12-23, 10:32 PM
So maybe...?

Samurai/Incarnate
Barbarian/Totemist
Factotum/Warblade
Fighter/Warmage
Monk/Psychic Warrior
Artificer/Erudite

All pretty good except for Factotum/Warblade, Barb/Totemist, and Artificer/Erudite. Why oh why would you let people gestalt 2 tier 1's?

Urpriest
2010-12-23, 10:34 PM
snip

See, a Marshal isn't particularly good at social interaction, though. Marshal 1 is quite good at social interaction, but Marshal 20 is no better than Marshal 1/Expert 19. Past level 1 the character isn't good at social interaction because they're a Marshal, they're good at social interaction because they dipped Marshal. The Tier descriptions are about what the class itself provides, not what the character does, and Marshal doesn't improve social interactions past level 1, while every other Tier 4 class with a useful shtick improves it.

Zonugal
2010-12-23, 10:58 PM
All pretty good except for Factotum/Warblade, Barb/Totemist, and Artificer/Erudite. Why oh why would you let people gestalt 2 tier 1's?

I have to confess I was just placing classes that worked well together.

Defiant
2010-12-23, 10:59 PM
See, a Marshal isn't particularly good at social interaction, though. Marshal 1 is quite good at social interaction, but Marshal 20 is no better than Marshal 1/Expert 19. Past level 1 the character isn't good at social interaction because they're a Marshal, they're good at social interaction because they dipped Marshal. The Tier descriptions are about what the class itself provides, not what the character does, and Marshal doesn't improve social interactions past level 1, while every other Tier 4 class with a useful shtick improves it.

Just because you can get the best things out of a class within a few levels, doesn't mean that the class's tier presence should be judged by it. The Marshal class isn't a particular class feature. It's a bunch of things - most importantly the ability to pick out new minor auras.

The Marshal class isn't completely useless after the first level. You can get more minor auras - motivate dexterity (initiative?), motivate intelligence (knowledge checks), and so on. It's just that it's not as useful to an optimizer who knows exactly what they need and they get it.

true_shinken
2010-12-23, 11:06 PM
See, a Marshal isn't particularly good at social interaction, though. Marshal 1 is quite good at social interaction, but Marshal 20 is no better than Marshal 1/Expert 19. Past level 1 the character isn't good at social interaction because they're a Marshal, they're good at social interaction because they dipped Marshal. The Tier descriptions are about what the class itself provides, not what the character does, and Marshal doesn't improve social interactions past level 1, while every other Tier 4 class with a useful shtick improves it.
Rogues are the best skill monkeys in T4. They get their skill monkey abilities at level 1. All else they got on this are skill mastery (which they gain only at 10 and you can get from prcs easily) and skill points (everyone gets).
Rogue 1/Anything else 19 may even be a better skillmonkey than Rogue, specially if 'anything else' includes, you know, Marshall.
Actually, tier 4 has at least one other class that gets their defining abilities at level 1 - Barbarian (Pounce and/or Rage). Rage does get better with level (a lot later), but pounce doesn't.

Lans
2010-12-23, 11:49 PM
See, a Marshal isn't particularly good at social interaction, though. Marshal 1 is quite good at social interaction, but Marshal 20 is no better than Marshal 1/Expert 19. Past level 1 the character isn't good at social interaction because they're a Marshal, they're good at social interaction because they dipped Marshal. The Tier descriptions are about what the class itself provides, not what the character does, and Marshal doesn't improve social interactions past level 1, while every other Tier 4 class with a useful shtick improves it.
Actually it can grabs motivate wisdom so that it gets a bonus to tell when the peeps are lying.

Plus it you know, learns new abilities. The party is going to love adding the Marshals charisma to their initiative, hide, move silently checks, and his major aura bonus to their initiative and listen, spot.

Greenish
2010-12-24, 09:06 AM
What's the consensus on spirit shamans, again? Close to the top of T2, right?I've seen them placed from tier 3 to tier 1, but yeah, high tier 2 sounds about right. They got more versatility than most spontaneous casters, but the number of different spells they can have any given day is rather small.

Umm... I doubt that the social part of D&D is something that is very often not needed. It is an important part of the game, and being the absolute grand-master of bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and anything Charisma, definitely fills a D&D niche.It's just one aspect of skill-monkeying. :smalltongue:


The "non-magical-user" was simply a qualifier…To artificially remove most other face classes from comparison.


The Marshal is capable of doing all social encounters and interactions extremely well.Having a few skill checks a few points higher does grant them an edge, yes. Nice in intrigue game, mostly useless in a dungeon crawl, something in between in most campaigns.

I'll relent: if you play a social-focused campaign where interactions are handled with skill rolls, marshal is tier 4. :smallamused:

It scales with the Dragon Magazine update, IIRC. But you're probably correct about it being no better than a Paladin.Ah, right, I completely forgot the update. :smallredface:

Defiant
2010-12-24, 11:43 AM
It's just one aspect of skill-monkeying. :smalltongue:

A skill-monkey isn't necessarily the best party face. A rogue or factotum can substitute in for the party face fairly well, because they have a wide variety of skills. But you need a party face that focuses on actual Charisma and the Charisma-based skills.


…To artificially remove most other face classes from comparison.
Having a few skill checks a few points higher does grant them an edge, yes. Nice in intrigue game, mostly useless in a dungeon crawl, something in between in most campaigns.

We're talking about a standard campaign here. We're not going to go to either extreme - dungeon crawl for no social interaction whatsoever, or an intrigue social-only game.

The standard campaign will include an important roleplaying and social aspect. That's where the Marshal excels fluff-wise and crunch-wise.


I'll relent: if you play a social-focused campaign where interactions are handled with skill rolls, marshal is tier 4. :smallamused:

I disagree. The Marshal fits firmly into the idea of Tier 4. If you know how to optimize a Marshal well, you can make him a Tier 3. If you're not that good and don't really know what you're doing, you can make him a Tier 5.

The Marshal is capable of doing the social aspect of D&D extremely well. If you optimize it well, your Marshal will become Tier 3: capable of doing the social aspect while still being useful in combat and other situations - this will not apply if your party is as optimized as you are of course. And, naturally, you can drop a tier level if you don't know how to play the Marshal.

Likewise, the Marshal will also be affected by the type of campaign. If the campaign is nothing but a dungeon-crawl and your party never has to talk to anyone or wants to convince anyone of anything, then the Marshal drops a tier and is not that useful (like a rogue in an undead-focused campaign that has no traps anywhere). If the campaign is nothing but social intrigue and no combat, then the Marshal might go up a tier or might not, depending on the circumstances (like a rogue in an assassin-themed campaign).

The Marshal sits perfectly at Tier 4. It could even be one of the definitions of Tier 4.

Amphetryon
2010-12-24, 12:02 PM
A skill-monkey isn't necessarily the best party face. A rogue or factotum can substitute in for the party face fairly well, because they have a wide variety of skills. But you need a party face that focuses on actual Charisma and the Charisma-based skills.Sort of. This is one of the potential issues often raised with the 3.5 skill system: A Paladin with a 22 CHA is a less able party face than a Beguiler with a 6 CHA who simply spent her (more copious) skill points/level on nothing but CHA-based skills by about level 4 at the latest.

Coidzor
2010-12-24, 12:10 PM
No, you don't need a character who focuses on Charisma to be a party face. You need a character who focuses on getting bonuses to the relevant skills.

Charisma is only a small part of the Diplomancer build, after all.

Quietus
2010-12-24, 12:11 PM
Sort of. This is one of the potential issues often raised with the 3.5 skill system: A Paladin with a 22 CHA is a less able party face than a Beguiler with a 6 CHA who simply spent her (more copious) skill points/level on nothing but CHA-based skills by about level 4 at the latest.

Yeah, so terrible that someone who focuses entirely on overcoming their natural failings can, as they reach the peak of normal human ability, be better at their chosen focus than someone who's simply naturally gifted. :smallsigh:

Defiant
2010-12-24, 12:20 PM
No, you don't need a character who focuses on Charisma to be a party face. You need a character who focuses on getting bonuses to the relevant skills.

No, just like you don't need a Barbarian who does 200 damage/round - you can do just fine with a Rogue that can do 100 damage/round. Just like you don't need a wizard with it's 9th-level arcane casting - you can do just fine with a Bard with 6th-level arcane casting.

No, you don't need a character who is both Charisma-based and maximizes their Charisma skills. But having one is optimal as a party face.

You don't need a wizard who specializes in Conjuration or Transmutation and has all the best spells. Get my point?

Coidzor
2010-12-24, 12:47 PM
Get my point?

You dont't appear to have gotten mine, which was that your approach derives from the stat itself, rather than the end result, which is the only thing that matters, especially as CHA doesn't protect against all of the things that can disrupt a face's ability to do its job. I already know about charisma synergy. On the other hand, someone who can party face and do something else is more valuable than someone who can only party face.

Barring breaking the game intentionally, one can only pump social skills so high, so making that the only focus of a charisma SAD build is subpar or intentionally disruptive depending upon the extent to which one does it.

So, no, you don't
need a party face that focuses on actual Charisma as you put it, which is what I was replying to and objecting to.

Defiant
2010-12-24, 01:07 PM
And the tier system only assess the class as a class. Here's what I mean:

The Marshal class excels at all social and roleplaying aspects of D&D.

Full stop. This defines it as a Tier 4. It does one thing well. Unless you bring forward the idea that the social and roleplaying aspects of D&D are often not needed, that's it. Maybe it gets overshadowed by other classes. Maybe other classes make it not needed (i.e. a rogue that's good enough for any party at the social aspect).

But in the end, you come back to the definition of Tier 4. Does one thing well - and that one thing is indeed sometimes needed. And then can do other things, but not really that well, like combat.

Urpriest
2010-12-24, 01:20 PM
And the tier system only assess the class as a class. Here's what I mean:

The Marshal class excels at all social and roleplaying aspects of D&D.

Full stop. This defines it as a Tier 4. It does one thing well. Unless you bring forward the idea that the social and roleplaying aspects of D&D are often not needed, that's it. Maybe it gets overshadowed by other classes. Maybe other classes make it not needed (i.e. a rogue that's good enough for any party at the social aspect).

But in the end, you come back to the definition of Tier 4. Does one thing well - and that one thing is indeed sometimes needed. And then can do other things, but not really that well, like combat.

I'd argue that in order to excel at roleplaying and social aspects you need more than just a +4-+12 bonus to the check. For example, Glibness is one of the primary tools of a Tier 3 class. As such, Glibness is not game-breakingly powerful (Tier 2), but merely usefully powerful. A Tier 4 class which is described as excelling at social and roleplaying should at least have access to that. Similarly, the Marshal is outclassed by Disguise Self, Alter Self, et. al, which it again has no access to, and which are perfectly acceptable for below Tier 2. Further, the Marshal has no ability to bypass social situations without rolling, something that the Warlock (Tier 4) can do trivially. So no, having one ability that gives a dip-worthy bonus does not equate to excelling at social interactions.

Think about it like this: a Tier 4 class that gets Tier 4 by excelling at social interactions should be better at or equal to Tier 3 classes that are good at social interactions, just like the Barbarian deals better damage than the Swordsage. The Marshal's +4-+12 bonus doesn't achieve that, given the social tools that Tier 4 and 3 can muster.

Defiant
2010-12-24, 01:31 PM
I'd argue that in order to excel at roleplaying and social aspects you need more than just a +4-+12 bonus to the check.

I'd say a +4 to +12 bonus to the check (on top of anything that any other class could do) is a fairly demonstrated excellence. 2*CHA+ranks (where CHA is maximized) does much better than CHA+ranks (where CHA is a low priority).


For example, Glibness is one of the primary tools of a Tier 3 class. As such, Glibness is not game-breakingly powerful (Tier 2), but merely usefully powerful. A Tier 4 class which is described as excelling at social and roleplaying should at least have access to that. Similarly, the Marshal is outclassed by Disguise Self, Alter Self, et. al, which it again has no access to, and which are perfectly acceptable for below Tier 2.

Being independent of magic has its benefits and drawbacks. You listed the drawbacks of not having those nice boosts. But for one, your abilities are always available, and not just once or twice a day for one bluff or 10 minutes - though it might indeed be that that's all you need. As well, you're not dependent on magic - anything that sees through it, dispels it, or is well-protected from it, has nothing against you.


Further, the Marshal has no ability to bypass social situations without rolling, something that the Warlock (Tier 4) can do trivially. So no, having one ability that gives a dip-worthy bonus does not equate to excelling at social interactions.

I don't know about the Warlock specifically, but I will restate the magic-free part of it. Having the ability to execute your specialty any time, an unlimited number of times, and without many defenses to it, fairly solidifies the specialty status.


Think about it like this: a Tier 4 class that gets Tier 4 by excelling at social interactions should be better at or equal to Tier 3 classes that are good at social interactions, just like the Barbarian deals better damage than the Swordsage. The Marshal's +4-+12 bonus doesn't achieve that, given the social tools that Tier 4 and 3 can muster.

The Marshal is arguably the best at social interactions out of all tiers. The highest Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks out of all classes. These are available at all times, and impervious to magical protection (save exceptions like Zone of Truth, but then you have the others like Diplomacy and Intimidate). Of course, this is just arguably... compared to a well-optimized Bard, the Marshal simply has different/more-direct social strengths.

But the Marshal nonetheless still excels at the social aspects.

Urpriest
2010-12-24, 02:08 PM
I'd say a +4 to +12 bonus to the check (on top of anything that any other class could do) is a fairly demonstrated excellence. 2*CHA+ranks (where CHA is maximized) does much better than CHA+ranks (where CHA is a low priority).



Being independent of magic has its benefits and drawbacks. You listed the drawbacks of not having those nice boosts. But for one, your abilities are always available, and not just once or twice a day for one bluff or 10 minutes - though it might indeed be that that's all you need. As well, you're not dependent on magic - anything that sees through it, dispels it, or is well-protected from it, has nothing against you.



I don't know about the Warlock specifically, but I will restate the magic-free part of it. Having the ability to execute your specialty any time, an unlimited number of times, and without many defenses to it, fairly solidifies the specialty status.



The Marshal is arguably the best at social interactions out of all tiers. The highest Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks out of all classes. These are available at all times, and impervious to magical protection (save exceptions like Zone of Truth, but then you have the others like Diplomacy and Intimidate). Of course, this is just arguably... compared to a well-optimized Bard, the Marshal simply has different/more-direct social strengths.

But the Marshal nonetheless still excels at the social aspects.

Zone of Truth is an excellent example. Barbarians are Tier 4 by virtue of being excellent chargers. Fighters can be made into chargers as well, and have access to many of the tools that Barbarians do. However, Fighters can't get pounce in-class. As such, they lack one of the most important abilities for a charger (or indeed, any non-initiator melee), which is a big part of what restricts a Fighter charger to Tier 5. Similarly, an excellent social character needs the ability to bypass Zone of Truth. Are there ways around it? Sure. But the mere fact that Zone of Truth is relatively low level (and as such can be expected to be common, compared to Antimagic Field) coupled with the fact that there are low-level ways to bypass it means that a social character is not fully competitive without such an ability.

The fact that you can use your abilities whenever needed is largely irrelevant, you'll only need the full bonus infrequently. More specifically, you'll need the full bonus about as often as the other classes get spells to bypass the situation. Funny, that. And of course Warlocks can just use Charm Person whenever they want. Further, those times when you do need it you'll often need it quickly, so you'll be making the check rushed, the -10 of which neatly cancels out your extra Cha bonus. Any class with spells can get out of social situations efficiently with a standard action. So can Binders.

Feats are important for a charger. Fighters get a lot of said feats. However, they get nothing else that helps them be a charger. That is why they are Tier 5 while a Barbarian is Tier 4. Marshals get a large bonus to checks. This is important to a diplomancer/social character. However, they get nothing else that helps them be a diplomancer/social character. That is why they are Tier 5, while classes that get more than just one requisite for the job (Warlocks, for example) are Tier 4+.

Defiant
2010-12-24, 03:03 PM
Well, I'm just going to have to disagree with your assessment.

RE: Zone of Truth
Zone of Truth is will negates, and Marshal gets will saves at good progression. Furthermore, the Marshal can pursue other options, such as Diplomacy and Intimidate, by virtue of ability and by virtue of fluff (other classes are deceit-based).

RE: Ability Use
Which would you rather have? A rogue with open lock trained, or a wizard with Knock? One can open a lock at any time. The other can do it once or twice, if he prepared for it.

The Marshal can be a "social cannon". When you need social firepower, he's there, however often you need him. Others need to prepare for it, and could be thwarted by simple magical protections.

RE: Charm Person
Any person worth charming will be immune or protected from its effects. Sure, it can be useful for the odd boost... but Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate will always be useful. I doubt you can Charm Person the king for profit... but you can convince him using regular social discourse.

Quick usage of these skills isn't necessarily the only way they can pop up. Not all social encounters are either announced ahead of time perfectly, or are rushed/unavailable (for the -20 to checks).

Reiteration


Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise

The Marshal is capable of doing social encounters quite well, but is not that good at combat or various other encounters. This means it's Tier 4.

The fact that other classes can also do social encounters quite well, does not mean that the Marshal is lower than Tier 4.


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

As you can see, even if the Bard were as good as the Marshal at social encounters, they'd still be at the correct tier placements. This is because they both excel at one thing, but the Bard is more useful outside of that one thing than the Bard.

Koury
2010-12-24, 03:38 PM
Why are we comparing classes to each other? They aren't ranked in comparison to each other, as far as I recall.

Regarding the Marshal, it really seems to come down to this: The Marshal only is any good at one thing. The question is whether or not he is merely good at social interactions (as a Fighter is with regards to damage) or OVER 9000! at social interactions (as a Barbarian is with regards to damage).

Defiant
2010-12-24, 03:57 PM
Why are we comparing classes to each other? They aren't ranked in comparison to each other, as far as I recall.

Regarding the Marshal, it really seems to come down to this: The Marshal only is any good at one thing. The question is whether or not he is merely good at social interactions (as a Fighter is with regards to damage) or OVER 9000! at social interactions (as a Barbarian is with regards to damage).

I say OVER 9000!!! :smallbiggrin:

And he's not good at just that one thing... just it's his shtick and his niche. A properly played Marshal can really magnify the strengths of a party. It's not that he's utterly useless at anything other than social encounters - it's just that's the one thing that sets him out and gives his class a reason to be played.

When I play a Marshal, I can dominate the social field (real-life social situation permitting), give everyone my CHA to initiative, have 1+CHA to every knowledge (poor man's Bardic Knowledge at the cost of 10 skill points), give everyone my CHA to damage when flanking (it's fun to hear people brag how much damage they did and know that a third of it was from me), get everyone in position fast enough, and do a little tripping and disarming myself too.

Of course, when the party also includes wizards and druids, I feel utterly and completely useless - especially when the DM starts outfitting the enemies to be extra-resistant to my tripping and disarming because it seems too powerful for me to able to do that... :smallsigh:

Coidzor
2010-12-24, 04:10 PM
Why are we comparing classes to each other? They aren't ranked in comparison to each other, as far as I recall.

Well, that is part of how one judges to see how well it fits into a tier, comparing its abilities to that of other classes already evaluated. Actually recall Jaronk saying something along those lines of the classes currently evaluated being guideposts to evaluating further classes.

From BG (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4874.0):


Marshal 1 is a classic dip for Diplomancers (combined with Binder 1 for Naberius and Warlock 1 for their charming invocation). Marshal is also incredible in low level army situations... a one or two Marshal 2s leading a group of Crusader 1s makes for a devastating low level unit. -JaronK

Cons: Outranked by Clerics (of course), but also by Bards (Basically auras with caster levels), Factotums (get int/level to certain skills per encounter), and most ToB classes (White Raven does it better). Has no way of swapping out useless auras. Very little support in outside books. Approximately 5 dead levels (including levels where only 1 aura is gained) (6, 10, 11, 13, and 18). Low number of Auras known if multiclassing. Auras are somewhat restricted (60', must hear/understand, int above 3 (problems occur with animals/mindless undead, etc.), and is canceled if she is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies.) Circumstance bonuses on skills are common, and much higher than what you can probably give. -Chaos Josh

Pros: Mid Bab, d8 HD, 2 good saves, and the ability to use any Martial weapon, shield (but tower), and armor make it an adequate front line fighter (not the best, mind, but adequate). Auras are activated by a swift action (handy). Diplomacy on a Cha-based class, including free Skill focus (Diplomacy) and an aura adding Cha twice to those checks is nifty. Can grant move actions (which is very useful on a group of Melee classes). Free Skill Focus also means that Exemplar builds are plausible, especially depending on the Auras chosen. Intimidate is a class skill and it's a Cha-based class, although not as good as being able to do it swiftly. Circumstance bonuses on things other than skills are handy. -Chaos Josh

JaronK
2010-12-24, 07:49 PM
I don't think it's accurate that Marshals excel at social situations. They're amazing at level 1, but after that? Adding Charisma again to Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate or Sense Motive (not both at once) is helpful, but it's unlikely to even give you as much as the Warlock's native +6 ability until pretty far into the game. But compared to the Bard's ability to cast Glibness and thus make ridiculous bluffs, or his ability to fascinate people and thus force people to listen? I don't see it. Marshals have a few useful powers, but very little after even level 4 or so. If I want a character that's a crazy diplomancer, I'd go Marshal 1/Binder 1 (for Naberius)/Warlock 1/Bard X.

JaronK

Greenish
2010-12-24, 08:19 PM
I don't think it's accurate that Marshals excel at social situations. They're amazing at level 1, but after that? Adding Charisma again to Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate or Sense Motive (not both at once) is helpful, but it's unlikely to even give you as much as the Warlock's native +6 ability until pretty far into the game. But compared to the Bard's ability to cast Glibness and thus make ridiculous bluffs, or his ability to fascinate people and thus force people to listen? I don't see it. Marshals have a few useful powers, but very little after even level 4 or so. If I want a character that's a crazy diplomancer, I'd go Marshal 1/Binder 1 (for Naberius)/Warlock 1/Bard X.

JaronKYou did place marshal at tier 4, and no one is arguing it should be higher.

Lans
2010-12-25, 12:48 AM
I don't think it's accurate that Marshals excel at social situations. They're amazing at level 1, but after that? Adding Charisma again to Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate or Sense Motive (not both at once) is helpful, but it's unlikely to even give you as much as the Warlock's native +6 ability until pretty far into the game. But compared to the Bard's ability to cast Glibness and thus make ridiculous bluffs, or his ability to fascinate people and thus force people to listen? I don't see it. Marshals have a few useful powers, but very little after even level 4 or so. If I want a character that's a crazy diplomancer, I'd go Marshal 1/Binder 1 (for Naberius)/Warlock 1/Bard X.

JaronK
Hmm, which straight classes are better than the Marshal at social skills? Its better than the bard at everything except bluffing past level 7, and its better than the warlock at level 6 or so. Factotum is probably better, and the -zilla's probably have access to spells that would make them better.


If the Marshal is focusing on marshaling then its bonus from the minor aura should be at least +6 by level 10, and if it takes the draconic aura it can net another +2 by then. In addition in a social situation he can toggle between boosting wisdom skills and charisma skills. So he might not excel at it, but he is still pretty damn good.

He can do the same thing with sense skills, and initiative, but he shares it with the party to make it super useful. Is there another way to give your party +17 to initiative?

Another Marshals other trick is being a minibard with knowledge skills. With a draconic aura its competitive with bardic knowledge with it being better until 7th when it breaks even with it.





Other than Dragon Magic and PH2 is there any other sources for Marshal?

Lans
2010-12-26, 05:43 PM
Of course, when the party also includes wizards and druids, I feel utterly and completely useless - especially when the DM starts outfitting the enemies to be extra-resistant to my tripping and disarming because it seems too powerful for me to able to do that... :smallsigh:

I wanted to bring this up, the Marshal gives a pretty good boost to opposed rolls, which can turn a 50/50 into autosucceed pretty easily.

JaronK
2010-12-26, 11:13 PM
You did place marshal at tier 4, and no one is arguing it should be higher.

I know. I imagine few would. Just saying, I think the idea that they excel in social situations is only accounting for their very low level behavior. It's not like they gain much if anything in that department after level 1. They're just a dip class.

As for who is better in the social areas, Binders get the ability to take 10 and do it as a standard action at level 1 (which is more important even than basic numerical boosts). And I'd say Bards are better because again stuff like Fascinate is better than a numerical thing, while Glibness and Charm Person are awesome for social stuff. Tier 1 classes get stuff like Guidance of the Avatar/Divine Insight to post huge numbers, in addition to stuff like Dominate Monster and Charm Person and various mind reading abilities. Factotums can obviously do the huge boost thing, while Beguilers have other spells that really help.

JaronK

Defiant
2010-12-26, 11:51 PM
Indeed, I never wanted to state Marshal is anything other than Tier 4. Its social output is very potent indeed, even if outclassed by some.


I wanted to bring this up, the Marshal gives a pretty good boost to opposed rolls, which can turn a 50/50 into autosucceed pretty easily.

I know, I used Art of War to supplement my combat contributions. But nothing can autosucceed against DM fiat...

JaronK
2010-12-27, 12:06 AM
But what does the Marshal really give you for social stuff past a 1 level dip? It's not like you're going to use anything other than Motivate Charisma in diplomatic situations (unless, I suppose, you already had diplomacy so high you didn't need it, but at that point does it matter?).

JaronK

Defiant
2010-12-27, 02:20 AM
But what does the Marshal really give you for social stuff past a 1 level dip? It's not like you're going to use anything other than Motivate Charisma in diplomatic situations (unless, I suppose, you already had diplomacy so high you didn't need it, but at that point does it matter?).

JaronK

What Marshal gives me for its specialty (social stuff) is more or less irrelevant. Marshal is its own class that, if taken all the way, is at Tier 4.

After all, a fighter/barbarian multiclass is considered Tier 4 because the Tier 5 Fighter has presumably been combined with the Tier 4 Barbarian in a way that is beneficial - and as such at least Tier 4. But simply because this fighter/barbarian multiclass makes the most sense doesn't mean that Fighter is any lower than Tier 5 - even if it's mostly a dip class.

You could just "dip" Marshal and go into something more useful, but then once again you have done some optimization that places you at the higher class's tier. This hasn't removed Marshal from its position at Tier 4.


To clarify:

Marshal is a class that offers various class features. It just so happens that its primary and most useful function can be optimally extracted with only a 1-level dip. But that's not all the class is.

When you evaluate it as a class, it falls into Tier 4. This is regardless of the fact that the one thing that makes it Tier 4 instead of Tier 5 can be retrieved at the first level.

And if we do get into arguments about who's better at social situations: glibness and charm person vs. absurdly high charisma/skill checks... well, even if we don't come to a consensus, it is still fair to say that the Marshal does the social thing at least "quite well".

Lans
2010-12-27, 10:22 AM
But what does the Marshal really give you for social stuff past a 1 level dip? It's not like you're going to use anything other than Motivate Charisma in diplomatic situations (unless, I suppose, you already had diplomacy so high you didn't need it, but at that point does it matter?).

JaronK
Marshal can grab a draconic aura for another +1-4 to the check, and switching to the wisdom boost would also be useful when not using diplomacy.

Not much, its pretty much forced to diversify out of social situations after level 3.

Amphetryon
2010-12-27, 10:31 AM
Marshal is a class that offers various class features. It just so happens that its primary and most useful function can be optimally extracted with only a 1-level dip. But that's not all the class is.This argument is, to my mind, exactly why Marshal doesn't rate higher. If its most useful function is obtained via a single level dip, as you say, that IS primarily what the class is.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 10:32 AM
What's the consensus on spirit shamans, again? Close to the top of T2, right?

I've seen them placed from tier 3 to tier 1, but yeah, high tier 2 sounds about right. They got more versatility than most spontaneous casters, but the number of different spells they can have any given day is rather small.

I'd say low tier 1, actually. They've got better spell slots than any prepared caster short of a focused specialist, and can switch out their spells known every morning, as if they were prepared casters preparing spells. They suffer from exactly two issues:

1.Their class features are mostly marginal and campaign specific. Nothing tier changing here. That one contingency-like effect is pretty awesome though.

2.They're druid casters, not cleric or wiz/sorc,, and iirc, Druids are slightly worse off in spellcasting at higher levels(no miracle/wish equivalent).

That said, I'm reasonably sure a Druid without wildshape or a animal companion would still be tier 1, and thus, Spirit Shamans are too.

Greenish
2010-12-27, 10:36 AM
I'd say low tier 1, actually. They've got better spell slots than any prepared caster short of a focused specialist, and can switch out their spells known every morning, as if they were prepared casters preparing spells. They suffer from exactly two issues:Well, there's some MAD too if you want to use spells with saves. Very few different spells retrieved, too, when compared to most spontaneous casters.

But yeah, it's somewhere near the border between the tiers.

Defiant
2010-12-27, 10:43 AM
This argument is, to my mind, exactly why Marshal doesn't rate higher. If its most useful function is obtained via a single level dip, as you say, that IS primarily what the class is.

Except it has numerous other very useful functions, but more in a supporting sense. You don't get high in the tiers by supporting your teammates using direct number boosts. +8 to damage? +8 to initiative? That's not earth-shatteringly powerful to make it stand out.

Lans
2010-12-27, 06:04 PM
Since when was tier 4 earth shattering powerful?

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 06:08 PM
Since when was tier 4 earth shattering powerful?
That's exactly his point. :smallsigh:

Defiant
2010-12-27, 10:17 PM
Since when was tier 4 earth shattering powerful?

Let Gortok answer your question with a question.

Who will be the weakling when Gortok's hundred-thousand-man army marches onto your lands, an alliance diplomatically forged with all of your enemies and allies, while Gortok plays around with a garbage +1 longsword in the back, marshalling the armies towards your nation's complete and utter destruction?

Toliudar
2010-12-27, 10:23 PM
Well, since Gortok is clearly playing Risk, it really doesn`t matter.

Augmented Lurk
2010-12-28, 01:49 AM
The Spirit Shaman should be a Tier 2 class. Why?
1. MAD casting.
2. Class abilities that, while good, are far weaker than that of a druid.
3. (This is the main reason) Ridiculously limited number of retrieved spells per day. For instance, a level 5 SS can only retrieve one 3rd level spell per day, and is unable of retrieving a second 3rd level spell until reaching level 8th level.

The Favored Soul is Tier 2, and is the Spirit Shaman really any stronger?

Spells
FS: Cleric list
SS: Druid list

Class abilities
FS: Weapon spec., some energy resistance, wings (at very high level)
SS: Free concentration on spells, ability to turn ethereal, raise someone from the dead 1/week, contingent heal on self which costs xp

Ability to change spells:SS
Earlier access to higher level spells:SS
Greater number of spells available at any time: FS

As you can see, they are both at about the same power level. The FS has arguably a slightly stronger spell casting list and has access to more of that list at a time; while the SS has a more versatile casting mechanic, earlier access to higher level spells, and slightly better class abilities. I'd say they're about even, though I think the SS just slightly edges out the FS (though not by much). .