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Doomboy911
2010-12-22, 07:46 PM
I came up with the idea if I were to ever get the ring of three wishes I had this set up that seemed fool proof. So I need some ruling if you can twist the idea.

Wish one:I wish to legally have thirty bags of holding (level six I think the largest is called) without paying for them

Wish two: I wish they were filled to the brim with platinum coins without breaking the bag.

Wish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.

So can this be twisted in anyway you can think?

Skorj
2010-12-22, 07:49 PM
Really, you think there's a wish that can't be twisted? :smallamused:


IWish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.

So, yeah, that bit there for laughs. :smallwink:

EDIT: also, you only said the bags were legally obtained, not the plat. Oops. :smallbiggrin:

FMArthur
2010-12-22, 07:51 PM
The coins were made from platinum taken from Tiamat's lair. Tiamat is a god and immune to the effect of your third wish.

Doomboy911
2010-12-22, 07:57 PM
Really, you think there's a wish that can't be twisted? :smallamused:



So, yeah, that bit there for laughs. :smallwink:

EDIT: also, you only said the bags were legally obtained, not the plat. Oops. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah but to take them they'd have to know about them.

tyckspoon
2010-12-22, 07:57 PM
-wishing for platinum-

The coins are only part platinum, alloyed with or plated on to some cheaper metal. The proportions of platinum to near-worthless base metal are exactly such that your wish yields 25,000 GP worth of coinage, as per the safe limit on wishing for material wealth.

Also you can't combine your Wishes in the way you're doing Wish 2 and Wish 3 (well, really, if you're going to try it, you may as well make Wish 2 and Wish 3 the same and use Wish 3 for something else.) Or.. well, you *can*, but basically what you're doing is using the 'redo an event' option for Wish 3 to change what you said in Wish 2.

Skorj
2010-12-22, 08:01 PM
There's also a running gag in my regular RPG group that applies here (and to any wish where the player hasn't heard the story, really). The punch line is: "when he competed his wish, the party heard a rising whistle, as of a bomb falling. You see, nowhere in his elaborate wish had he specified the velocity of arrival. It was a TPK."

The Big Dice
2010-12-22, 08:05 PM
I came up with the idea if I were to ever get the ring of three wishes I had this set up that seemed fool proof. So I need some ruling if you can twist the idea.

Wish one:I wish to legally have thirty bags of holding (level six I think the largest is called) without paying for them

Wish two: I wish they were filled to the brim with platinum coins without breaking the bag.

Wish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.

So can this be twisted in anyway you can think?

1: You can have them, sure.I can think of things to make you not want them anymore after you got them, but let's roll with this.

2. Sure. To the brim means that the bag won't close. How much does all that coin weigh again?

3. Nobody can think of a reason not to take them from you? That's not good. That leaves you wide open to them being stolen and all kinds of other shenanigans.

It's not a case of using a ruling to twist the ideas, it's more about using the wording to mean you'd use the third wish to say "I wish I hadn't done that."

Doomboy911
2010-12-22, 09:36 PM
Well yeah I was wondering how a DM would respond to this with twisting the words also that idea of the Platinum pieces appearing on top of me is messed up with when I wish for them to be in my bag of holding.

Ravens_cry
2010-12-22, 09:57 PM
Trying to break Wish is pointless, you know why? Because the spell implicitly says, no matter how well you word it, even if your legalese is good enough to make a devils head hurt, the DM is fully authorized to ignore some part of your wish to screw with it if it goes too far. I'm not saying part of Rule 0, I mean the actual wording of the Wish spell description.
Going for this is just egging the DM to do so.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-22, 09:59 PM
I came up with the idea if I were to ever get the ring of three wishes I had this set up that seemed fool proof. So I need some ruling if you can twist the idea.

Wish one:I wish to legally have thirty bags of holding (level six I think the largest is called) without paying for them

Wish two: I wish they were filled to the brim with platinum coins without breaking the bag.

Wish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.

So can this be twisted in anyway you can think?
Yes, easily.

With Wish #1, you're getting off the safe list already. AND you're making a wish that requires the expenditure of additional XP above and beyond the base Wish - but check out how things are priced: Magic items don't provide extra XP. That's got to come from somewhere. A type IV Bag of Holding costs 10,000 gp market; 400 xp to Craft, and thus, 800 xp each to make via Wish. You just had 24,000 xp drained from you. De-level a few times, and enjoy your 30 bags of holding that have no impact on your combat ability. No, he's not weakening encounters for your being 2-3 levels behind the curve, sorry. Alternately, you get one - as making one magic item is on the safe list of Wish - and lose 800 xp, per the 'partial fulfillment' clause.

Wish 2:
The simplest way to do this is to reverse the enchantment on the bags, so that they can contain nothing - they are now literally filled to the brim, but no contents are required. If the DM is feeling generous, they contain 1 platinum coin each, and that is the limit of the space that fits in the Wish-twisted bags.

Wish 3:
You added a 'not' you didn't intend. Now everyone wants to take them from you (which would require quite the enchantment). Assuming you fix that, though, you've still got a problem: affecting the minds of everyone everywhere is beyond the limits of Wish, and this requires that as stated. However, a single Symbol of Charming on one or more of them, which triggers when someone attempts to steal them, works out relatively well. For a little while. You get the 'partial fulfillment' clause. Will save DC 23 negates.

NichG
2010-12-22, 10:01 PM
If I wanted to twist those wishes as a DM, was looking for a plot hook, and was running a game where the potential power of wish was basically unlimited (since otherwise all of those wishes would simply fail due to the spell being insufficiently powerful) I'd do the following:

1. Result of wish 1: You are now legally entitled to 30 bags of holding scattered throughout the world. See, there was this wizard who passed away without a will, and his effects were collected and auctioned off. Now the will has been uncovered, naming you the recipient of the bags of holding.

2,3. Granted without modification.

Now there are 30 really really stinking rich people (each bag contains 750000gp) scattered throughout the world creating all sorts of strange plot, and you have motivation to go and locate them and retrieve your property. Even finding one bag's full contents would be a huge thing for the party. Furthermore, the platinum seems to have strange magical effects (specifically, every platinum piece has a Sympathy spell placed upon it), and are being hunted by other beings who wish to use them for nefarious and/or amusing purposes.

Meanwhile, the huge influx of platinum into certain markets is fundamentally changing the value of the metal, which has two effects: 1. Its not worth as much as you thought, though its probably still pretty valuable and 2. Certain spells stop working as they require a sacrifice of a certain value, and the relative value of different sacrifices is actually being altered. The gods of commerce become involved, leading to the campaign climax where the party must find a new rare resource and convince the world to use it in place of platinum, lest all magic with material components fail forever...

Okay, I'll admit that last bit is a bit much.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-22, 10:12 PM
This is easy to 'twist', and non-maliciously too. Welcome to the Partial Fulfillment clause.

Wish 1: Wish, as written, cannot make multiple magic items, only 'a magic item, or add to the properties of an existing magic item'. It also has a limit of 25,000GP worth of non-magical items or currency created per Wish. Allowing for a partial fulfillment according to the spirit of the wish, you will recieve 2 Type IV Bags of Holding. Semi-maliciously would get you a single Bag of Holding, but still within the spirit of the request.

Wish 2: Wish, as written, cannot provide more than 25,000GP worth of currency or non-magical items in a single casting. As you wished for the bags to be full to the brim of platinum coins, though, partial fulfillment takes the form of 2,500 platinum coins (50 lbs), and then a CL20 (the CL of the ring) Major Creation spell conjuring 20 cubic feet of platinum coins, which persist for 20 hours before vanishing. The Wish chokes here, being unable to create the remaining 229 cubic feet worth of coins with its inherent power.

Wish 3: Cannot be parsed by the Ring, so nothing happens, but you do not expend a wish. Alternatively, repeat Wish 2, conjuring the maximum possible amount of coinage the magic will allow, plus temporary coinage to get as close to the stated limits as possible. Requires very sympathic understanding of intent, otherwise:


no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.

Means every single person in the world will have invented, inexplicable reasons to hunt you down and take your money. Double negatives are funny like that.:smallbiggrin:

Doomboy911
2010-12-22, 10:24 PM
The thirty bags of holding was kind of me just being greedy. So make it one bag I'm surprised no one said that the bags of holding would be inside one another.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-22, 10:28 PM
The thirty bags of holding was kind of me just being greedy. So make it one bag I'm surprised no one said that the bags of holding would be inside one another.
*rolls eyes* check out the density of platinum, and do a little math on a Portable Hole.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-22, 10:29 PM
The thirty bags of holding was kind of me just being greedy. So make it one bag I'm surprised no one said that the bags of holding would be inside one another.

They could be, because that doesn't actually matter by strict RAW. The only extradimensional space interactions with designated effects is Portable Hole+Bag of Holding, everything else is merely implied and left up to the DM.

The 'best outcome', for you though, is 2 Bags of Holding, each with 2,500 platinum coins in it, and 3 expended wishes. Or 1 Bag, with a total of 5,000 platinum, 3 wishes expended.

Doomboy911
2010-12-22, 11:08 PM
Hmm taking the limit on gold and magic items into considerations I have to say this.

Wish One: I wish for a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to unwarded, ungaurded treasures or forgotten treasure.

Wish Two: I wish for a very quick means of transportation that allows me to travel safely to anywhere I want.

Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-22, 11:16 PM
Hmm taking the limit on gold and magic items into considerations I have to say this.

Wish One: I wish for a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to unwarded, ungaurded treasures or forgotten treasure.

Wish Two: I wish for a very quick means of transportation that allows me to travel safely to anywhere I want.

Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.

Wish One: Given that the maps are to unguarded treasures OR forgotten treasure, you get a bag of holding filled with maps leading to the most gruelingly defended forgotten treasures ever conceived.

Wish Two: Deep down, your character really wanted to go to a brothel...

Wish Three: You just made it so that anyone capable and willing to steal from "it" would not lose interest, despite believing it doesn't exist.
I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest I'm thinking blind hope treasure hunters, who it is their last chance at making it in the world to try and get something that no one believes to exist. On the surface they are strong and sure of it's existence, but deep down, they know it doesn't.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-22, 11:20 PM
Hmm taking the limit on gold and magic items into considerations I have to say this.

Wish One: I wish for a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to unwarded, ungaurded treasures or forgotten treasure.

Wish Two: I wish for a very quick means of transportation that allows me to travel safely to anywhere I want.

Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.

Wish 1: You a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to forgotten treasures. They may be guarded or warded, the maps don't say. Hello, adventure hooks!

Wish 2: You get a Scroll of Greater Teleport. If you're a non-caster, a Command-word Item of Greater Teleport with 15 charges would fit under the 25000GP limit.

Wish 3: Cannot be parsed, nothing happens and no Wish expended (you can't make two wishes simultaneous like this). Also, you got another double negative in here by mistake.

Doomboy911
2010-12-22, 11:31 PM
My mistake should've said anyone willing and capable of stealing it would lose interest. And for means of travel perhaps wishing for a normal vehicle to have the ability to transport myself and the vehicle to anywhere I want.

Also make the maps only unwarded ungaurded amounts of treasure that have long been forgotten with exact details on what the area holding the treasure entails.

Bonus points if the vehicle is a unicycle for giggles.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-22, 11:35 PM
Then the Charged Item of Greater Teleport takes the form of a unicycle. After its charges are expended, it's still a nonmagical unicycle.

The maps now lead to unguarded treasures, but their total value between all the maps is only 25,000 GP. They are very small treasures.


malicious wish-warping is easier (say, giving you maps to unguarded treasures, which are unguarded because the nine million Balors guarding it were out on a smoke break), but cliched and not as fun.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-22, 11:43 PM
The maps now lead to unguarded treasures, but their total value between all the maps is only 25,000 GP. They are very small treasures.

Even better, the treasures are all long forgotten childhood toys. Possibly worth a copper or two each, but they were deeply treasured by whoever owned them before.

khylis
2010-12-22, 11:56 PM
Worst possible outcome? the DM grants all your wishes, as stated.

And since nobody wants your money, you can't buy anything with it.

Also, you'll get up to 25,000 in bag of holdings filled with coins, then be smothered in regular bags filled with lots of heavy, worthless coins. Stacked on top of you.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 12:07 AM
I said no one was interested in my treasure maps not in the treasure itself.

The Big Dice
2010-12-23, 12:10 AM
Hmm taking the limit on gold and magic items into considerations I have to say this.

Wish One: I wish for a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to unwarded, ungaurded treasures or forgotten treasure.

Wish Two: I wish for a very quick means of transportation that allows me to travel safely to anywhere I want.

Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.

Wish 1. Unwarded, unguarded or forgotten treasures can be found. Congratulations, you got several maps to treasures that are already discovered, some to treasures that aren't guarded or warded in any way,but that are located in hostile environments (Elemental Plane of Fire, floating in the Astral Plane, on an island in the middle of an alkali lake or whatever) and all of them combined not exceeding the required value of a single Wish.

Wish 2 could be all kinds of fun. You didn't specify a limit to the number of uses, so it could be a single use item. Nor did you specify the form, so you could be surrounded with an air permeable rubber, then launched across the landscape. You get where you want to be, but are completely incapable of interacting with anything when you get there...

Wish 3 doesn't allow for the guy who is coerced into stealing your can of Boing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_technology_in_Judge_Dredd#Boing.21) by a nefarious villain who is himself incapable of stealing the device.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-23, 12:19 AM
Such things are why I think finding Partial Fulfillment interpretations are more fun, in the end, than malicious warping. It's easy to twist unintended consequences (you didn't say you didn't want to be on fire) into absurdity, harder to adhere to the intended spirit without breaking the limits of Wish or letting the player get away with their intended cheateryness.

Trinoya
2010-12-23, 12:28 AM
Oh god.. really? Reeeeeeally? Lol... here we go. Let me twist da wish!


Wish one:I wish to legally have thirty bags of holding (level six I think the largest is called) without paying for them


You automatically have thirty bags of holding fly at you at high speed within six seconds, impacting you. All the bags are deemed legally obtained and your property. They travel as the appropriate speed from their former locations, and deal appropriate damage for their speed and weight. If you are still alive I salute you sir.

Also, the path of destruction left by these bags in their wake is easily traceable to you... as they all head straight for you.


Wish two: I wish they were filled to the brim with platinum coins without breaking the bag.

Done and Done. They are filled to the brim with platinum coins. Specifically coins from the nation of Platinum, a long forgotten dead nation. The coins are made of copper.


Wish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.

You have successfully changed the platinum pieces into legal tender, freshly made from a country of your DMs choosing. However you are overwhelmed by numerous people who just can't think of a reason to not take these coins from you, these include enemies, party members, and so on.

Have fun.

mootoall
2010-12-23, 12:30 AM
Honestly, if a bit of Platinum is what you're going for with a Wish, you're not being creative enough anyway ...

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 12:31 AM
The wish is providing me with an item that is worth less than 25,000 gp (The pen and paper) The treasure I'd receive is possible worth. If I wished to know where a dragon's lair is I'd be given that knowledge and inside there would likely be treasure the wish doesn't lessen the treasure or send me to a dragon with less gold it gives me directions to the dragon I ask for. By wishing for tons of maps to treasure hoards it's the same as getting information except the wish was kind enough to write it down.

The vehicle is simply a matter of wishing for a cart with dimension shift and protect from just about anything you're able to think is necessary permanently imbued in the cart.

And once the capable person is given reason he'll go out and than lose interest. May lead to an endless cycle though villain says do it he says okay than comes back a week later bored and the villain tells him to do it he agrees and it happens again.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 12:33 AM
Honestly, if a bit of Platinum is what you're going for with a Wish, you're not being creative enough anyway ...

Yeah it was the most important I could think of. Instead of wishing for an item I could get money to pay for it twist free.

Eisirt
2010-12-23, 01:06 AM
As a DM you can have a lot of laughs with wish 1 and 2, but wish 3 makes me really chuckle....

Quoted: "no one could think of a reason not to take them from me."

Not even shopkeepers...

"No sorry sir/ma'am, I can under no circumstance accept your coin."

Or the version Trinoya mentioned... everyone in the world wants your money. Aren't you the popular one....

Your wording makes it slightly hard to figure out if they want or not want your money. Which doesn't matter in the eye of a malicious DM.

Golden Rule: The DM ALWAYS has a bigger hammer.

My personal rule(s) for wishes:
1.) Don get involved in them.
2.) If you have to get involved in them wish for something that advances the plot of the story, and personal wealth is rarely it.
(Call it metagaming, but few mature DM's will screw with a wish that makes the story more interesting)

khylis
2010-12-23, 01:32 AM
Wish for duplication of the ring of wishing, craft an iterative contingency that repeats the process; wish for clones of yourself - then proceed to worship yourself, through recursion, you are a god that has followers who are gods.

Challenge the DM!

=P

Lose horribly

Aquillion
2010-12-23, 03:42 AM
Wish one:I wish to legally have thirty bags of holding (level six I think the largest is called) without paying for themThese bags of holding legally belong to you. However, as a practical matter, they are in the possession of Lord Killslaughter the Lawscorner, a level 20 chaotic evil wizard.

Alternatively, you have your bags of holding in your possession, and they legally belong to you! You didn't even have to pay for them, because you obtained them by using legal trickery to take them from Hateslaughter the Master of Disproportionate Retribution, an epic-level chaotic evil villain famous for his brutal and unending pursuit of anyone who takes anything that he considers to be his.

Legally, though? They belong to you.

Or you get six bags of holding that cannot be opened by any means.


Wish two: I wish they were filled to the brim with platinum coins without breaking the bag.They each contain two platinum coins, stuck in the brim (you specified 'coins' or you'd be getting one.)

They each contain two really big Platinum Coins, still worth only one platinum each.


Wish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.Wait, nobody can think of a reason not to take them from you?

I... don't even have to twist this one; you outright wished for something silly. Nobody can think of a reason not to take away your coins; that means that absolutely everyone in the world wants to take them from you. So, uh... have fun.

Also they are legal tender in exactly one place, a tiny shop somewhere that has absolutely nothing valuable to sell.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-23, 03:49 AM
Wait, nobody can think of a reason not to take them from you?

I... don't even have to twist this one; you outright wished for something silly. Nobody can think of a reason not to take away your coins; that means that absolutely everyone in the world wants to take them from you. So, uh... have fun.

Also they are legal tender in exactly one place, a tiny shop somewhere that has absolutely nothing valuable to sell.

But, that tiny shop will be getting a lot of business, as they only have a compulsion to take the coins from Doomboy, nobody else. 60 platinum is still worth 600 gold, probably enough to buy a shop with nothing valuable's entire stock several times over. You wonder what the shopkeep intends to do with these coins that are not accepted by anyone else... probably melt them down and sell the component metal I guess...

snikrept
2010-12-23, 05:42 AM
Your DM was very generous! Your wishes succeed. You now have thirty bags of holding sitting at your feet, stuffed to the brim with nigh-infinite numbers of platinum pieces. Unfortunately the world's financial institutions have simultaneously become aware of this sudden massive, destabilizing influx of coinage, and platinum is now worthless as a medium of currency.

Dozens of kingdoms, wealthy individuals and organized crime syndicates now know your name as "that person who made our fortunes worthless" and have begun to hunt you for vengeance.

PersonMan
2010-12-23, 05:47 AM
So can this be twisted in anyway you can think?

You never said the bags and coin aren't on fire. They are.

You also never wished that you wouldn't be set on fire. You're on fire.

MickJay
2010-12-23, 06:25 AM
With the maps, I think suggesting that the combined treasure is worth 25000 gp is a little unfair - the Wish gives you maps, not treasure. I'd simply rule that the more difficult the treasure is to get to, the less the map itself is worth. So a map to a nearby, unguarded treasure worth 5000gp could be worth, for example, 3500gp, but a map to a distant and well protected (even if "forgotten") treasure worth 30000gp could be worth only 2000gp. You can make the treasures even larger by putting there items that are of no use to players, which they'll have to sell for far less than their worth. Finally, if you're afraid that the players will get too rich to quickly, feel free to drastically reduce all of the loot the players will be finding while trying to reach the treasure, and throw additional enemies at them (as long as they're not in the vicinity of the unguarded loot, of course). :smallwink:

I see no reason to screw with the players any further, as they've just given you an excellent plot hook. You could even make all these maps the main treasure the party found in some dungeon. :smallwink:

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 07:16 AM
Your DM was very generous! Your wishes succeed. You now have thirty bags of holding sitting at your feet, stuffed to the brim with nigh-infinite numbers of platinum pieces. Unfortunately the world's financial institutions have simultaneously become aware of this sudden massive, destabilizing influx of coinage, and platinum is now worthless as a medium of currency.

Dozens of kingdoms, wealthy individuals and organized crime syndicates now know your name as "that person who made our fortunes worthless" and have begun to hunt you for vengeance.

Yes but I asked them to be made the treasure is forged from a different pile of loot so the amount of platinum is still the same. Also for whoever said the bags and money would be on fire I did say they'd be cooled to prevent the coins being freshly made and still hot from burning a hole through the bags.

FMArthur
2010-12-23, 07:56 AM
Hmm taking the limit on gold and magic items into considerations I have to say this.

Wish One: I wish for a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to unwarded, ungaurded treasures or forgotten treasure.

Wish Two: I wish for a very quick means of transportation that allows me to travel safely to anywhere I want.

Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.

So basically, you want to find a dungeon to raid for treasure. That is what adventurers do for a living, is it not? What you did to acquire/be able to afford your Wish Ring was probably something along those lines anyway. Why would a DM care to corrupt this wish? You could probably get this out of a nearby NPC as a quest hook, for free. Monsters can live there without actually guarding anything by the way, but if you want to make your adventuring career boring and encounterless, that's up to you. You may as well have just settled down to live a quiet life as a wealthy merchant anyway with the 75000gp directly from wishes, to cut out the middle man. Congratulations, your character is rich and doesn't want any more challenges out of life. Uh... roll up a new one to continue playing an adventure, I guess.

PersonMan
2010-12-23, 08:13 AM
Also for whoever said the bags and money would be on fire I did say they'd be cooled to prevent the coins being freshly made and still hot from burning a hole through the bags.

They're cooled, yes. "On fire" does not mean "melting point". They're very, very cool compared to before, but still on fire.

Also, you're still on fire.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 12:52 PM
If everything that isn't specified happens to me should I get the 25,000 gp, go up a level, have a hot princess fall in love with me, have asteroids hit me, turn into a fish, and etcetera and etcetera.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 12:55 PM
So basically, you want to find a dungeon to raid for treasure. That is what adventurers do for a living, is it not? What you did to acquire/be able to afford your Wish Ring was probably something along those lines anyway. Why would a DM care to corrupt this wish? You could probably get this out of a nearby NPC as a quest hook, for free. Monsters can live there without actually guarding anything by the way, but if you want to make your adventuring career boring and encounterless, that's up to you. You may as well have just settled down to live a quiet life as a wealthy merchant anyway with the 75000gp directly from wishes, to cut out the middle man. Congratulations, your character is rich and doesn't want any more challenges out of life. Uh... roll up a new one to continue playing an adventure, I guess.

Well this is an attempt to get the standard tons of money wish correct for DnD also if I had that much money I'd start my own kingdom and take down other countries.

Incanur
2010-12-23, 01:05 PM
I prefer using wish for dramatic changes to the game world, such as when the lich Iniarv caused the sea the flood the land now known as the Mere of Dead Men (http://www.realmshelps.net/npc/wyrms/voaraghamanthar.shtml). Platinum pieces come and go; destroying multiple armies, ravaging a vast expanse, and creating a lingering magical terrain feature assure you'll be remembered. Many DMs (not all) want awesome things like this to happen and will fulfill realm-shaking wishes, while few will tolerate attempts to go beyond the system-mandated wealth by level.

Ravens_cry
2010-12-23, 01:18 PM
Well this is an attempt to get the standard tons of money wish correct for DnD also if I had that much money I'd start my own kingdom and take down other countries.
Wish for the title to an area of unclaimed land. Use the second wish to build a fort on said land, replicating fabricate. Wish for fabricate again to make a bunch of equipment for an army, as well as non perishable food and supplies.

truemane
2010-12-23, 01:21 PM
I hate Wish twisting. Hated it back in 1e and hate it now. Like all attempts to use stringent rules to prevent system-breaking, the entire process is better dealt with by gentlemen’s agreements (gentlepersons') than legalese. No matter how well the wish is worded, a DM can pervert it, and trying harder to prevent it just makes the DM work harder to make it happen. At which point, why even include them in your game unless you enjoy quibbling?

In my campaigns, the rule I've been using for a long time is that, when you make a wish, from whatever source, it is granted by the 'nearest wish-granting being.' Could be a Ki-Rin, could be a Devil, could be the Avatar of the God of Agriculture, you never know (also, Wish, as a spell, cannot be memorized, only transcribed to a scroll).

So my players, when they get a wish, start doing their best to attract the attentions of a wish-granting being most amenable to their interests, and acting in ways that would be endear them to that being.

Over the years this has lead to volunteer work for good-aligned churches (15th level Fighter running daycare FW!), quests for Epic-Level Wizards, sucking-up to Gold Dragons, etc.

And I then look at the wish in the spirit with which they've pursued it, and make a ruling. Takes all the tension and the hostility out of the process and makes Wishes a story element, as they ought to be.

megabyter5
2010-12-23, 02:04 PM
Wish number 3 might go something like this:

You: Yay! I have platinum coins!
NPC: Yoink! They're mine now!
You: Hey! Why'd you take my coins?
NPC: I couldn't think of a reason not to.
You: Well then, I'll just take them back.
NPC: Hey! You stole my coins! THIEF!

[You are arrested for thievery, and spend hours convincing the guards the coins were yours to begin with]

You: Do you believe me now?
Guard: Yes. You're free to go.
You: Then give me my coins back.
Guard: Fine. [gives you the coins and immediately snatches them back]
You: Hey! Why'd you take my coins?
Guard: I couldn't think of a reason not to.

Zeful
2010-12-23, 02:05 PM
Wish one:I wish to legally have thirty bags of holding (level six I think the largest is called) without paying for themBeyond the ring's power (wish lacks to XP to create the specified items), partial fulfillment; get your thirty bags of holding with a document proving you stole them from a nearby king. This document follows the rules for cursed items, save that it cannot be gotten rid of until you return the bags to their rightful owner.


Wish two: I wish they were filled to the brim with platinum coins without breaking the bag.Beyond the ring's power (greater than 25,000gp), literal fulfillment; the bag is filled to the brim with coins, not the extradimensional space, the bags now weigh 1000+ pounds, each.


Wish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.Beyond the ring's power (enchanting the entire population of the world), partial fulfillment; the coins are pulled from every kingdom's mint and treasury, you gain an accompanying note, detailing the exact amount of coins stolen from each treasury/mint as with the document provided by wish one, this document can only be gotten rid of by returning all the stolen platinum.


So can this be twisted in anyway you can think?Any wish that is not one of the listed effects (or could be accomplished by one of the listed effects), is free for the DM to twist in any way they feel like.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 02:19 PM
How about we set up a different forum for that. okay.

nooblade
2010-12-23, 02:22 PM
Making him regret the magical part of the wish is fun and all, but why not just give it to him and let economics be the ruining factor? Money soon becomes worthless, player may become emperor or whatever (Buy more wishes? People are going to notice you're walking around with that much platinum, if only the seller... If you have to hush him, why not just steal?) depending on how money is spent, every single NPC in the world revolts against tyranny. It's difficult to abandon a set-up plot and you're tempted to just get over this wish strangeness in one sitting, but this could be really interesting. Depending on how the players influence this massive event, the entire world could hunt and assassinate various spellcasters, or the players, or blame authority or deities. And then there's the copycats to deal with. Plus, you make the players agree that something has to be done about magic in general to prevent it from ever happening again. Houserule player adventure!

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 02:23 PM
Well after this http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180797 I've thought to have a different forum set of people merely busting each other's wishes.

The simple fact is it's a ring of three wishes http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ring_of_Three_Wishes with three wishes on it. So what wishes do you have that you think might be fool proof.

AyeGill
2010-12-23, 02:26 PM
I wish for, with no other effect on anything, an efreet appearing before me, with helpful attitude towards me.

meh, can probably be cracked, maybe by considering that summoning an efreet will have an effect on something else.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 02:39 PM
What about the other two wishes?

Pseudolich
2010-12-23, 03:27 PM
<looks at wish spells description>
<Double checks to see that "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item." is on the list of safe uses>
<Checks to see that you don't pay the XP costs for activating an item>
<Checks wish spell description to be sure that there are no GP limits to the creation of magic items>

I wish for an NI number of rings of three wishes, equip myself, my party, and my army with the strongest non-artifact equipment in D&D, then generate encounters for me to fight (duplicating summon monster or planar binding) until I become an epic level wizard/epic level cleric/epic level erudite/epic level druid and then declare tentative victory over D&D.

For extra fun, the safe use only says "magic item", and last I checked epic magic items are treated as a subset of magic items rather than a unique category...

The Big Dice
2010-12-23, 03:30 PM
I wish for an NI number of rings of three wishes

I miss the days when Wish explicitly said that wishing for more Wishes locked you in a time loop. Leaving cheese like that wishing for more wishes until the end of time.

Emmerask
2010-12-23, 03:38 PM
I miss the days when Wish explicitly said that wishing for more Wishes locked you in a time loop. Leaving cheese like that wishing for more wishes until the end of time.

Who cares for the rules of safety as a dm or as a forumer :smallwink:
NI being a variable becomes zero, wish busted. :smalltongue:

Also you didnīt state that the rings should infact be given to you, you merely stated that you have the inclination to equip your party with them at some point which has nothing to do with the wish or the rings immediately.

Also you should state that the NI rings have wishes left, else you get NI number of rings (all without rubies left) which are worth 25.000GP ^^

Ilmryn
2010-12-23, 03:38 PM
<looks at wish spells description>
<Double checks to see that "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item." is on the list of safe uses>
<Checks to see that you don't pay the XP costs for activating an item>
<Checks wish spell description to be sure that there are no GP limits to the creation of magic items>

I wish for an NI number of rings of three wishes, equip myself, my party, and my army with the strongest non-artifact equipment in D&D, then generate encounters for me to fight (duplicating summon monster or planar binding) until I become an epic level wizard/epic level cleric/epic level erudite/epic level druid and then declare tentative victory over D&D.

For extra fun, the safe use only says "magic item", and last I checked epic magic items are treated as a subset of magic items rather than a unique category...

Doesn't the wish description specifically say that you can't create more than 25000gp worth of magic items with one casting? Also, according to the spell description, wish can only duplicate spells of 8th level and lower, so you can't wish for more wishes safely.
In my opinion, miracle is a much more powerful spell, as it's only limit is whatever your deity would allow. With miracle, you could simply worship the ideal of your own power, and then go to town. Why miracle gets much less attention than wish is beyond me.

Signmaker
2010-12-23, 03:40 PM
Exactly what is detailed by the Wish spell as safe, unless you A. Know Modron, B. Can think of every universal source for everything that might be granted to you, so you can specifically exclude those as where the Wish can draw its source from, and C. Can speak ALL of that before the Wish spell decides to 'cut you off'.

Emmerask
2010-12-23, 03:44 PM
Doesn't the wish description specifically say that you can't create more than 25000gp worth of magic items with one casting?

It says mundane items worth 25.000GP but only states you can wish for magic items ^^

My final say is, you get NI number of rings of three wishes (all without wishes left) which are worth exactly 25.000GP

Zeful
2010-12-23, 03:46 PM
I wish for, with no other effect on anything, an efreet appearing before me, with helpful attitude towards me.

meh, can probably be cracked, maybe by considering that summoning an efreet will have an effect on something else.
Transport Other effect, Will Save to resist, within limits of the spell. Charm Person Effect, if it's not on your spell list and is of a spell school you have barred, it's still within the effects of the spell (lesser wish caps at 4th level spells for such effects and it could do it), will save to resist. Both effects are beyond the "safe" effects (you are effectively wishing for more than one thing afterall), so you get one.


<looks at wish spells description>
<Double checks to see that "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item." is on the list of safe uses>
<Checks to see that you don't pay the XP costs for activating an item>
<Checks wish spell description to be sure that there are no GP limits to the creation of magic items>

I wish for an NI number of rings of three wishes, equip myself, my party, and my army with the strongest non-artifact equipment in D&D, then generate encounters for me to fight (duplicating summon monster or planar binding) until I become an epic level wizard/epic level cleric/epic level erudite/epic level druid and then declare tentative victory over D&D.

For extra fun, the safe use only says "magic item", and last I checked epic magic items are treated as a subset of magic items rather than a unique category...Don't items of spells that have extra XP costs need to have extra XP put into them to wish for more powerful effects increasing their cost by 5gp for each point of XP placed into them?


Doesn't the wish description specifically say that you can't create more than 25000gp worth of magic items with one casting?
It used to, back in 3.0.

Toliudar
2010-12-23, 03:51 PM
Here's a crazy thought: use the ring as a last-ditch tool to get you out of some massive problem, at a time when the DM is less likely to:

a) Want to screw you over, because you're already in trouble.
b) Have time to think of a way to screw you over, because you're in the middle of something major and plot-related.

You get a major benefit - potentially, the benefit of not having to roll up a new character - and get the epic story of how some off-the-wall and world-changing wish turned the tide at the very last minute. Doesn't that sound like more fun than a bag of platinum?

Ravens_cry
2010-12-23, 05:09 PM
I wish to hold legal title for all unclaimed land in and around <insert up and coming city here/> to a maximum total value of 25,000 gold pieces up to 5 miles distance from present city gates.
There, land speculation through wish craft.
I am sure it's break able, but it's a nice idea.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-23, 05:43 PM
<looks at wish spells description>
<Double checks to see that "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item." is on the list of safe uses>
<Checks to see that you don't pay the XP costs for activating an item>
<Checks wish spell description to be sure that there are no GP limits to the creation of magic items>

I wish for an NI number of rings of three wishes, equip myself, my party, and my army with the strongest non-artifact equipment in D&D, then generate encounters for me to fight (duplicating summon monster or planar binding) until I become an epic level wizard/epic level cleric/epic level erudite/epic level druid and then declare tentative victory over D&D.

For extra fun, the safe use only says "magic item", and last I checked epic magic items are treated as a subset of magic items rather than a unique category...

Check item pricing:
You don't have to pay XP for activating an item because the XP was paid during the item's creation. This is why a Ring of Three Wishes has a market price of 97,950 gp, while costing 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP to craft. 15,000 of the XP (and thus, 75,000 gp of the market price) is to power the three wishes (the other 22,950 gp market / 918 xp to craft is double the cost of three scrolls of 9th level spells - the 'anyone can use it' and 'you can't cast it yourself' tax, essentially). A Ring of Three Wishes has no extra XP to provide, so if you're not getting the XP from elsewhere, a Wish for anything that costs 'extra' XP above the standard Wish isn't available. This is particularly clear if you look at the footnotes on Scrolls of Permanency, Wish, and Miracle.

AKA, "doesn't work" (although it might with an Efreeti / Noble Dijinni, if your DM doesn't institute consequences for such attempts at abuse).

Skorj
2010-12-23, 05:50 PM
Here's a crazy thought: use the ring as a last-ditch tool to get you out of some massive problem, at a time when the DM is less likely to:

a) Want to screw you over, because you're already in trouble.
b) Have time to think of a way to screw you over, because you're in the middle of something major and plot-related.

You get a major benefit - potentially, the benefit of not having to roll up a new character - and get the epic story of how some off-the-wall and world-changing wish turned the tide at the very last minute. Doesn't that sound like more fun than a bag of platinum?

This is by far the best use of a wish ring. Any time you can use a wish as a way to help the DM save the campaign from a TPK is a good time to push the limits of Wish.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 06:32 PM
Alright how about this wish it consists of some set up, the idea is to wipe out an invading army in a non conventional way. First wish I wish seeds of incredibly tall trees would be cover the whole area the army will be on the first day of their arrival.

Second I wish the seeds could only be seen by those who know they're there.

Wait for the army to arrive

I wish everything in that field was fully grown.

Pseudolich
2010-12-23, 06:52 PM
I suppose if you just wanted to break the campaign, and didn't care if your character survived...

"I wish for an unused scroll of time stop." (Magic item worth less than 25,000 gp. Happy that you've imposed non-specified limits now?) (Furthermore, this is explicitly a safe wish, precluding any tampering. The DM will likely ask if that is all that you are doing.)

I use the scroll of time stop, stopping time for at least two rounds.

"I wish that all restrictions upon the power of the next wish made using this ring be removed." (Outside of the safe limits, and probably will result in your DM asking what you, the players, AC is. Even if the backlash disintegrates you instantly, the wish accomplished its goal. You drop the ring as a readied action to freeze it in the time stop, preventing the ring from being destroyed.)

If you lived through the last wish, then you pick the ring back up. If you didn't, one of your allies does.
"I wish that all creatures with the possibility of existing in any location at any time shall gain a wish spell-like ability usable at will with no negative consequences." (The DM starts calculating his to-hit bonus with a thrown chainsaw, because you just broke something.)


As for the proposed breaks in my previous wish:


I miss the days when Wish explicitly said that wishing for more Wishes locked you in a time loop. Leaving cheese like that wishing for more wishes until the end of time.
So I become immortal, just without the ability to influence anything? I suppose I wake up after the end of the universe with nigh infinite wishes to play with...



Who cares for the rules of safety as a dm or as a forumer :smallwink:
NI being a variable becomes zero, wish busted. :smalltongue:

Also you didnīt state that the rings should infact be given to you, you merely stated that you have the inclination to equip your party with them at some point which has nothing to do with the wish or the rings immediately.

Also you should state that the NI rings have wishes left, else you get NI number of rings (all without rubies left) which are worth 25.000GP ^^
Nigh infinite is being used as a stand in for the end result of a terminable process (I am using a wish to create one ring per wish, not a nigh infinite number of rings with one wish). If necessary, then I create them until I have Ack(G64,G64) rings of three wishes.

That is my intent after making the wish, not the actual wish. Sorry for not making it clear. As this is an explicitly safe use of the spell, I contend that such alterations as creating the rings somewhere other than where I am is not supported by the rules.

As for stating that the rings have wishes left; The rings are explicitly being created by the spell and should have, at worse, 1d3 wishes per ring.


Check item pricing:
You don't have to pay XP for activating an item because the XP was paid during the item's creation. This is why a Ring of Three Wishes has a market price of 97,950 gp, while costing 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP to craft. 15,000 of the XP (and thus, 75,000 gp of the market price) is to power the three wishes (the other 22,950 gp market / 918 xp to craft is double the cost of three scrolls of 9th level spells - the 'anyone can use it' and 'you can't cast it yourself' tax, essentially). A Ring of Three Wishes has no extra XP to provide, so if you're not getting the XP from elsewhere, a Wish for anything that costs 'extra' XP above the standard Wish isn't available. This is particularly clear if you look at the footnotes on Scrolls of Permanency, Wish, and Miracle.

A good catch that actually does slow down the rate of advancement. It should still be able to be circumvented by paying the XP costs yourself and using a thought bottle. The 500 XP per reset of XP can be bypassed by either using a second thought bottle or by gaining XP through summoned encounters between thought bottle uses. The potential for long-term abuse to gain large amounts of power is limited, but not eliminated. You can only craft items with an xp cost of <your total xp + 4999> rather than any item in D&D.

Granted, the above may not work because I am not certain as to whether you may use your own XP to pay the cost of an ability activated by an item


If you really want to break everything (warning: stupidly high cheese, read at own risk):

1.) I wish to be affected by Polymorph Any Object to become a kobold, native to the world of Toril.
2.) I wish for a Sarrukh to teleported thirty-five feet in front of my location.
3.) I wish for the Sarrukh currently nearest to me to be affected by a suggestion effect suggesting that it grant me the Manipulate Form ability.
4.) Pun-pun.
As far as I can tell, the only point where a problem might occur is becoming native to Toril. Directly wishing to become a scaled one of Toril with the caveat that I not be moved from my present location or killed might work...

This can be circumvented by starting as a kobold and using the first wish to become native to Toril.

The Big Dice
2010-12-23, 07:03 PM
So I become immortal, just without the ability to influence anything? I suppose I wake up after the end of the universe with nigh infinite wishes to play with...
So exactly how long can you survive in an environment that doesn't exist? No time, so you can't take an action. No air, so anything you say can't be heard and you can't breathe anyway. No space, so you have nowhere to be. Nomagic, so all your Wishes can't be fulfilled.

And anyway, you've been in a time loop. Constantly passing through the same point in time and space. So you'd have the same amount of Wishes as you had before you made the fateful one that dumped you after the end of the universe.


1.) I wish to be affected by Polymorph Any Object to become a kobold, native to the world of Toril.
2.) I wish for a Sarrukh to teleported thirty-five feet in front of my location.
3.) I wish for the Sarrukh currently nearest to me to be affected by a suggestion effect suggesting that it grant me the Manipulate Form ability.
4.) Pun-pun.
As far as I can tell, the only point where a problem might occur is becoming native to Toril. Directly wishing to become a scaled one of Toril with the caveat that I not be moved from my present location or killed might work...

This can be circumvented by starting as a kobold and using the first wish to become native to Toril.

Does your character have the means to know about Toril, know about Sarrukhs and their ability to Manipulate Forms, know about the somewhat convoluted process needed to becomes Pun-Pun and all that good stuff?

Because if you can't justify all of that in character, you stepped so far over the line into metagaming that the line is a dot.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-23, 07:09 PM
A good catch that actually does slow down the rate of advancement. It should still be able to be circumvented by paying the XP costs yourself and using a thought bottle. The 500 XP per reset of XP can be bypassed by either using a second thought bottle or by gaining XP through summoned encounters between thought bottle uses. The potential for long-term abuse to gain large amounts of power is limited, but not eliminated. You can only craft items with an xp cost of <your total xp + 4999> rather than any item in D&D.

Granted, the above may not work because I am not certain as to whether you may use your own XP to pay the cost of an ability activated by an item

You're forgetting a clause:
If you can use such methods to expend more XP than you normally would (normal methods of expending XP specify that you can't spend so much XP that you'd de-level)

If you don't mind being limited to 1/2 of one level's XP, you can skip the thought bottle. You just need to convert a negative level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) (such as from a Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm)'s hit) to real level loss (by voluntarily failing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row) a Fort save), and then score a Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) spell after you've spent the 'unlocked' XP. Do note that the Psionic Version of Restoration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/restorationPsionic.htm) has less wiggle-room for it not working.

Pseudolich
2010-12-23, 07:20 PM
Most likely the kobold found a manuscript of some sort in its backstory explaining everything. Or an artifact that gives knowledge from beyond the great veil (metagaming through backstory)...

As for spending xp beyond normal limits, there is most likely a method to get around that...use negative levels and restoration along with artificer levels and retain essence on randomly created magic items, perhaps?

Jack_Simth
2010-12-23, 07:27 PM
Most likely the kobold found a manuscript of some sort in its backstory explaining everything. Or an artifact that gives knowledge from beyond the great veil (metagaming through backstory)...

As for spending xp beyond normal limits, there is most likely a method to get around that...use negative levels and restoration along with artificer levels and retain essence on randomly created magic items, perhaps?
Not randomly created magic items. Crafting requires GP, so in your de-leveled state you want to make the most efficient XP-storing items you can. Which would be scrolls of Beget Bogun, a 1st level spell with a 25 xp component - 12.5 gp to craft each scroll, 26 xp to store in them. Just over 2 xp per GP expended in this manner... if you can score a free Restoration within the time limit, anyway.

Edit: It also helps if you can convince your DM that multiple-spell scrolls are treated as a single item for purposes of crafting. As the market price portion of Beget Bogun scrolls are 25 gp each, and the crafting time limit is 1,000 gp/day, you want scrolls of Beget Bogun... actually, no. You want *wands* of Beget Bogun, if you can swing the XP cost. 375 gp materials, for 50*25=1280 xp in components plus 30 xp for the wand itself. 3.49333... (repeating) XP per GP (assuming the Wight hit and the Restoration are free).

Pseudolich
2010-12-23, 07:35 PM
Since the amount that you can store in the crafting pool doesn't seem to be limited, and since xp retention methods are being used to generate xp by wish-crafting, the gold efficiency does not seem to be an issue. What is likely to be the issue is time. Therefore, it is seems that one should endeavor to create magic items that store as close to your current limit as possible so as to minimize the number of 24-hour periods spent absorbing the essence into your craft pool to create <item of choice>.

As a side note, fifteenth level warforged artificers with a method for level-draining themselves (any ideas?) are on my TO be avoided list, now.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-23, 07:55 PM
Since the amount that you can store in the crafting pool doesn't seem to be limited, and since xp retention methods are being used to generate xp by wish-crafting, the gold efficiency does not seem to be an issue.
Yes it is. The 'safe list' Wishes only give 5 gp per XP at best. If your storage method is less efficient than that, you can't make money infinitely that way with 'safe list' Wishes. Item Crafting for general items stores only 1 xp per 12.5 gp expended. We need to fix that to make this work.

Assumptions:
1) You are: a 15th+ level artificer (but without any of the cheap-crafting feats - for now) sufficient to make a Scroll of Wish.
2) You are a member of a party, which includes a Cleric who Rebukes/Commands undead
3) Your party Cleric has scored Command of a Wight (not hard - one Enervation Murder needed).

Step 1: Craft away your current reserve, and craft away any excess XP you have above your current level. Wands of Beget Bogun are a good choice, at 375 gp each for 1,310 xp stored.
Step 2: Have the Wight hit you exactly once.
Step 3: Voluntarily fail the Fort save 24 hours later.
Step 4: Craft away the 'unlocked' XP above your new level. Wands of Beget Bogun are a good choice again.
Step 5: Score a Restoration from your party cleric (100 gp in material components)
Step 6: Check to see if the essence from your crafted items is sufficient to make a Wish. If yes, proceed to step 7. If no, return to Step 1.
Step 7: Yank the essence out of all your storage items.
Step 8: Craft a scroll of Wish.
Step 9: Wish up some money.
Step 10: Go To Step 1

What's our cash do over the course of the loop?
Going from 14th to 15th level takes 14,000 xp, so when you fail the save, you've got 7,000 xp to burn (I'm assuming you don't get a second 14th level Crafting Reserve, here).

If your Cleric party mate is the same level you *were*, then you've got 15 days from when the level loss becomes real to when you *must* get the restoration. As we can craft Wands of Beget Bogun in a day, and those store 1,310 xp, and we've only got 7,000 xp to burn each loop, the time window is not an issue.

We can make Five wands of Beget Bogun before our XP threshhold is crossed: 6,550 stored in the first segment before the Restoration. Should be enough to craft a single Scroll of Wish.

What's our GP costs?
100 gp for Restoration's diamond dust.
5*375 gp cost for crafting wands of Beget Bogun
1,912 gp cost for crafting the scroll of Wish

= 3,887 gp expended.

Safe List Wish lets us make a 25,000 gp valued mundane item. Even if we're stuck selling for half, we still make a GP profit.

Thanks to XP-saving shenanigans, we now have a method for two people to have infinite wealth, using safe-list Wish, at 15th level.

Yes, there's better ways (Iron is a trade good, usable as cash. Look up the density of iron, check the volume on a Wall of Iron spell, and do some math), but this one uses Wish to break the game open, and does it using the safe list.

Pseudolich
2010-12-23, 08:24 PM
Can we use an elan, a scroll of genesis (to abuse time traits), some artificer shenanigans (explored above), a wand of restoration, and a level drain method (wand of enervation?) to achieve the same affect with only one person?

Also, the method may be more efficient than postulated. From reading the restoration spell description (and as has been suggested on this forum, but I can't seem to find the thread...), you gain enough experience to put you back to your previous level. It should be possible to retake the level, then, most likely regaining that level's crafting pool. Therefore, the process may yield an additional 1,500 experience points per cycle.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-23, 08:44 PM
Three wishes that are foolproof?

1. I wish for 25,000 GP.
2. I wish for 25,000 GP.
3. I wish for 25,000 GP.

Problem solved, though it's not as much fun due to lack of going through absurdly convoluted legalese loops to get more than I'm supposed to. A more elegant Wish for a more civilized age.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-23, 08:55 PM
Can we use an elan, a scroll of genesis (to abuse time traits), some artificer shenanigans (explored above), a wand of restoration, and a level drain method (wand of enervation?) to achieve the same affect with only one person?

Oh. You want a Wizard-18, Sorcerer-19, or similar, then.

You need:
1) To find a Wight.
2) To have Wish, Limited Wish, and Command Undead on your spells known list.

Works the same as above, but with some modifications:
1) Replace Restoration via Limited Wish.
2) Replace Commanding the Wight with controlling it via Command Undead (you're not asking it to do anything out of line with it's nature - except maybe getting it to stop after one bite).
3) Replace storing XP via crafting and making a scroll of Wish with casting Wish directly.

Much simpler, really, but requires a higher level character.

If you're a Psion-18 with Undead Leadership, you can have a Wight as a Cohort or (more likely) Follower, and use Reality Revision and Psionic Restoration to the same effect.

Theoretically, you could use a wand of Command Undead as an artificer, but the save is much, much lower, as is the duration, which can become a problem.



Also, the method may be more efficient than postulated. From reading the restoration spell description (and as has been suggested on this forum, but I can't seem to find the thread...), you gain enough experience to put you back to your previous level. It should be possible to retake the level, then, most likely regaining that level's crafting pool. Therefore, the process may yield an additional 1,500 experience points per cycle.

Which is no big deal in a gaining cycle that can be repeated indefinitely. But the potential exists.

FelixG
2010-12-23, 09:10 PM
Wish: I wish for the deed giving me legal ownership of the kingdom. (mundane, and less than 25,000)
Wish: I wish for a parchment in which the king secedes all his power and authority to me, signed with his name and blood. (mundane, and less than 25,000)
Wish: I wish to be teleported to the location of the inevitables on the clockwork nirvana of mechanus so I can get these two bits of parchment enforced!
:smallbiggrin:

Hanuman
2010-12-23, 09:21 PM
I wish to hold legal title for all unclaimed land in and around <insert up and coming city here/> to a maximum total value of 25,000 gold pieces up to 5 miles distance from present city gates.
There, land speculation through wish craft.
I am sure it's break able, but it's a nice idea.
That would be a TERRIBLE use for wish, with a simple Skillful Moment spell (Wiz/Sorc1) and maximized Forgery you could take 20 on a forgery check and easily hit 30-40.

Funny thing is, forgery checks are opposed by forgery checks, and who's actually good at those? =P

Aquillion
2010-12-23, 09:27 PM
So basically, you want to find a dungeon to raid for treasure. That is what adventurers do for a living, is it not? What you did to acquire/be able to afford your Wish Ring was probably something along those lines anyway. Why would a DM care to corrupt this wish? You could probably get this out of a nearby NPC as a quest hook, for free.That was my thought. That wish is basically "Dear DM, please give me a plot hook." You don't need to subvert it (beyond making the dungeon exciting in some way -- but it's not hard to put the treasure in the middle of a war zone, or have some treasure nobody knows about buried in a goblin fortress.)


Wish One: I wish for a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to unwarded, ungaurded treasures or forgotten treasure.The maps lead to forgotten treasures in dangerous areas, as noted. Nobody remembers the valuable golden statue buried at the bottom of the goblin fortress, but you still have to work to get it.


Wish Two: I wish for a very quick means of transportation that allows me to travel safely to anywhere I want.You forgot to specify 'reusable', so you get a scroll of Teleport. This falls inside the price limit for wishes, so it doesn't get any further corrupted.


Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.I'm unable to parse this one. It seems like you put a double-negative in by mistake...? But this wish doesn't seem necessary; I don't see why the DM would want to make it totally impossible for you to get the treasure -- you're just going to have to work for it about as hard as you usually would to get that much treasure.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-23, 09:41 PM
That would be a TERRIBLE use for wish, with a simple Skillful Moment spell (Wiz/Sorc1) and maximized Forgery you could take 20 on a forgery check and easily hit 30-40.

Funny thing is, forgery checks are opposed by forgery checks, and who's actually good at those? =P

The problem being that the beings on the clockwork nirvana of mechanus would be able to tell a forgery from something authentic. You spend the wishes to make them truly authentic.

However, one would easily argue that such a parchment is worth well over 25,000, as the wealth it represents is many times that. Therefore, wish broken.

FelixG
2010-12-23, 09:45 PM
However, one would easily argue that such a parchment is worth well over 25,000, as the wealth it represents is many times that. Therefore, wish broken.

Yes but it is not the ITEM that is worth all of that, the ITEM is only as much as the item costs, which is really just parchment and ink, its just what the item entitles you to.

going by RAW your just asking for the paper with scribbling on it, well within the bounds, what mortals make of that paper is an entirely different matter

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 09:59 PM
Wish One: I wish for a bag of holding filled with non-magical maps to unwarded, ungaurded treasures or forgotten treasure.

Wish Two: I wish for a very quick means of transportation that allows me to travel safely to anywhere I want.

Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.

Okay so a bit of rewording needs to be done.

I wish for a bag of holding filled with inexpensive maps that detail separate piles of treasure that have been forgotten,are unguarded with all forms of obstacles one could come across being included in each set of maps.

I wish for a vehicle that I can use as many times as I want that will transport me anywhere I want safely and protect me until I'm in a area that is safe for me to live in.

I wish anyone who knows of the maps besides me believes they don't exist.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 10:03 PM
Wish: I wish for the deed giving me legal ownership of the kingdom. (mundane, and less than 25,000)
Wish: I wish for a parchment in which the king secedes all his power and authority to me, signed with his name and blood. (mundane, and less than 25,000)
Wish: I wish to be teleported to the location of the inevitables on the clockwork nirvana of mechanus so I can get these two bits of parchment enforced!
:smallbiggrin:

The parchment and deed are to a kingdom that's about to be burned to the ground. Enjoy the ashes.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-23, 10:03 PM
Yes but it is not the ITEM that is worth all of that, the ITEM is only as much as the item costs, which is really just parchment and ink, its just what the item entitles you to.

going by RAW your just asking for the paper with scribbling on it, well within the bounds, what mortals make of that paper is an entirely different matter

'Cost' and 'Value' can be nebulously defined things - what something costs and what it's worth are, especially in D&D, two very different things...for example, you always sell magic items at a 50% markdown, and what is worthless to one person can be priceless to another.

By its very definition, a treasure map's only worth or value is the information it contains - the location of a treasure. Wish's specific wording is 'a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 GP in value' - a valid interpretation of which is that the treasure map(s) it gives you will lead to 25,000GP worth of treasure. How much the ink and parchment cost is irrelevant.


Wish: I wish for the deed giving me legal ownership of the kingdom. (mundane, and less than 25,000)
Wish: I wish for a parchment in which the king secedes all his power and authority to me, signed with his name and blood. (mundane, and less than 25,000)
Wish: I wish to be teleported to the location of the inevitables on the clockwork nirvana of mechanus so I can get these two bits of parchment enforced!
:smallbiggrin:
On these same notes...a deed giving you legal ownership of a large kingdom would be valued and worth far, far more than 25,000GP, again regardless of the ink and parchment cost. So, you become the legal owner and ruler of a very, very tiny/poor kingdom with a total GDP of 25,000GP. Which is cool, because again, adventure hook! Maybe the kingdom is poor because it is almost uninhabited, sitting on the edge of a vast forest/wasteland infested with monsters. And you, as the new king, must/can choose to clear out your unwelcome neighbors to encourage immigration.

Think Kingdom of Landover, if you've ever read it. Just because you inherited/gained a kingdom, on the cheap, doesn't mean easy retirement.


EDIT: Doomboy - by random curiosity, is English a second language for you? That's the third double-negative you've included in a wish (wording it such that it does the opposite of what you meant by default), so it must be accidental by this point.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 10:18 PM
Must be I don't see a negative a bit of help in spotting it.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-23, 10:25 PM
Must be I don't see a negative a bit of help in spotting it.



Wish Three: I wish no one capable and willing to steal it from would lose interest believing that such an item couldn't possibly exist.

If you wish for no one capable of stealing it to lose interest, then the only people who will lose interest are the ones who can't steal it. Everyone else will be unable to forget about it, and irresistably compelled to steal it.

If it was worded 'anyone capable and willing to steal it would lose interest' or 'no one capable and willing to steal it would have any interest', then you'd only have one negative.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 10:37 PM
Must be out of it to have made that mistake again.

What if one used the wish for knowledge that all the maps would contain. You don't wish for an actual item but mental information. Technically it didn't cost any thing but it's worth a lot.:smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-12-23, 10:43 PM
Unfortunately, knowledge isn't covered under any of the 'safe' items Wish can automatically grant, so you're back to either malicious or partial fulfillment. I suppose the closest it could get would be a Legend Lore spell cast on you, filling you with knowledge of legendary, priceless treasures so old that even the legends about them have been forgotten, and that'd still end up as a partial fulfillment; no one remembers the treasure, but they're all coincidentally located in places heavily guarded or warded for a completely unrelated reason.

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 10:46 PM
Yeah but then the next wish could be used to get the other half as I don't need to guard my mind and than get a reusable form of transportation.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-23, 10:50 PM
Yeah but then the next wish could be used to get the other half as I don't need to guard my mind and than get a reusable form of transportation.

What other half? Wishing for the same thing twice would just get you a wasted wish, since you already had that information. Partial fulfillment isn't deliberately withholding part of your request, but giving as much as it can.

Malicious answer: Also, you didn't ask for the knowledge to not be on fire.:smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2010-12-23, 10:52 PM
Unfortunately, knowledge isn't covered under any of the 'safe' items Wish can automatically grant, so you're back to either malicious or partial fulfillment. I suppose the closest it could get would be a Legend Lore spell cast on you, filling you with knowledge of legendary, priceless treasures so old that even the legends about them have been forgotten, and that'd still end up as a partial fulfillment; no one remembers the treasure, but they're all coincidentally located in places heavily guarded or warded for a completely unrelated reason.

Actually, a twisted fulfillment could be very similar to an Insanity spell. You suddenly know where everything, everywhere is located. Including every little treasure on all those infinite planes. There is too much information in your head, you can no longer process it properly, and you are now insane (or your head explodes, or ...).

Another variant: It replaces all the knowledge in your head. You lose all of your skills (including languages), feats, and class features. You are left with your BAB, HP, saves, and base stats only. But you now know where lots of different treasures are. If only you could remember how you got this information, or why you wanted it in the first place....

Doomboy911
2010-12-23, 10:57 PM
Both clever and funny responses. Should I wish for as much information I can comprehend without changing my current mental state that fixes it I think. Also once I know of those treasures I could wish that I'd forget about the ones that are guarded.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-23, 11:11 PM
Both clever and funny responses. Should I wish for as much information I can comprehend without changing my current mental state that fixes it I think.
Nope. Your head is now completely full. You keep your same mental state, but you are incapable of gaining any new information, ever. You will not know which treasures you have already raided. You will not know what your companion told you one second ago. You will not know how you got from where you made the fateful Wish to where you are now. You will not recognize that you have expended spells, and thus will not re-prepare them. You are incapable of gaining XP. You are incapable of learning that you are incapable of learning. And so on. Your character is now not suitable for a PC, and has become an NPC. Roll up a new character.

Also once I know of those treasures I could wish that I'd forget about the ones that are guarded.
Those ARE just based on the ones that are unguarded. There's a fair number of planes listed in the DMG that are listed as being infinite in size. If there is one unguarded treasure per 100,000 square miles, there are an infinite number of unguarded treasures. You only have so many neurons, and thus, only so many possible connections between neurons, to store data in. Your head is now full. And you can't even become aware that there's a problem.

See, you're missing the magic clause that limits Wishes strictly to partial fulfillment, preventing all deliberate twisted fulfillments.

Eisirt
2010-12-24, 12:05 AM
In my opinion your wishes are overcomplicated and uncreative.

The suggestion to use them when it would suit the party (and yourself), not to mention saving the DM a lot of time coming up with a new campaign to suit your soon to be new PC's is being resolved by you in using all three wishes to annihilate an army by growing trees.... THREE wishes.

Just step into the DM's shoes for a second and consider what would be a cool thing to grant when a player wishes for it, and not what would be the coolest thing I could have right now. Or, what is the least incorruptible wish I can come up with... those are rarely stimulating for the campaign.

FelixG
2010-12-24, 01:43 AM
'Cost' and 'Value' can be nebulously defined things - what something costs and what it's worth are, especially in D&D, two very different things...for example, you always sell magic items at a 50% markdown, and what is worthless to one person can be priceless to another.

By its very definition, a treasure map's only worth or value is the information it contains - the location of a treasure. Wish's specific wording is 'a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 GP in value' - a valid interpretation of which is that the treasure map(s) it gives you will lead to 25,000GP worth of treasure. How much the ink and parchment cost is irrelevant.


On these same notes...a deed giving you legal ownership of a large kingdom would be valued and worth far, far more than 25,000GP, again regardless of the ink and parchment cost. So, you become the legal owner and ruler of a very, very tiny/poor kingdom with a total GDP of 25,000GP. Which is cool, because again, adventure hook! Maybe the kingdom is poor because it is almost uninhabited, sitting on the edge of a vast forest/wasteland infested with monsters. And you, as the new king, must/can choose to clear out your unwelcome neighbors to encourage immigration.

Think Kingdom of Landover, if you've ever read it. Just because you inherited/gained a kingdom, on the cheap, doesn't mean easy retirement.


It could be argued either way really, the items themselves are well within the alotted GP limit but it is the information that the words contain that is so very valuable.

To fix this: make it a 1 charge wondrous item of light that happens to be the deed to etc... that way it is a magical item and thus has no upper limit on value but still fulfills what it is asked of it after the charge is used.

:smallbiggrin:


Nope. Your head is now completely full. You keep your same mental state, but you are incapable of gaining any new information, ever. You will not know which treasures you have already raided. You will not know what your companion told you one second ago. You will not know how you got from where you made the fateful Wish to where you are now. You will not recognize that you have expended spells, and thus will not re-prepare them. You are incapable of gaining XP. You are incapable of learning that you are incapable of learning. And so on. Your character is now not suitable for a PC, and has become an NPC. Roll up a new character.


I have a better way to mess with the person: "Congratulations your head is now full, unfortunately this knowledge is all locked away inside and will be released until such a time as you would normally unlock it. :smallbiggrin:

they know everything but they cant utilize it until they actively learn a bit of information then they get access to the information...In other words it does nothing

The Glyphstone
2010-12-24, 02:39 AM
It could be argued either way really, the items themselves are well within the alotted GP limit but it is the information that the words contain that is so very valuable.

To fix this: make it a 1 charge wondrous item of light that happens to be the deed to etc... that way it is a magical item and thus has no upper limit on value but still fulfills what it is asked of it after the charge is used.

:smallbiggrin:



I have a better way to mess with the person: "Congratulations your head is now full, unfortunately this knowledge is all locked away inside and will be released until such a time as you would normally unlock it. :smallbiggrin:

they know everything but they cant utilize it until they actively learn a bit of information then they get access to the information...In other words it does nothing

K, fine, it happens. Unfortunately, you failed to specify that you did not want the magic item of light, the kingdom, or yourself to be on fire. All three of them now are.:smallbiggrin:

FelixG
2010-12-24, 05:39 AM
K, fine, it happens. Unfortunately, you failed to specify that you did not want the magic item of light, the kingdom, or yourself to be on fire. All three of them now are.:smallbiggrin:

Ah fire, is there a problem it can not solve? :smallyuk:

Though that wish would be a fun way to burn down an enemy kingdom! even though the wording of the wish is well within the allotted limits ~.^

Androgeus
2010-12-24, 10:08 AM
K, fine, it happens. Unfortunately, you failed to specify that you did not want the magic item of light, the kingdom, or yourself to be on fire. All three of them now are.:smallbiggrin:

also, the fire is on fire! :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2010-12-24, 12:49 PM
Ah fire, is there a problem it can not solve? :smallyuk:

Though that wish would be a fun way to burn down an enemy kingdom! even though the wording of the wish is well within the allotted limits ~.^

You'd need to specify the kingdom, though, and then the kingdom wouldn't be set on fire, you'd just be set on fire more.

Aquillion
2010-12-24, 03:30 PM
K, fine, it happens. Unfortunately, you failed to specify that you did not want the magic item of light, the kingdom, or yourself to be on fire. All three of them now are.:smallbiggrin:
To be fair, that's, what, 1d4 damage? :smallannoyed:

Keinnicht
2010-12-24, 03:37 PM
To be fair, that's, what, 1d4 damage? :smallannoyed:

Totally submerged in lava, then.

Doomboy911
2010-12-24, 06:35 PM
Yes but one would have to wish to be moved to the lava.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-24, 06:38 PM
To be fair, that's, what, 1d4 damage? :smallannoyed:

Nonmagical fire is 1d4/round. This is "you irritated the cosmic threads of magic so much that the universe is punishing you" fire. A Major Fire-dominant plane deals 3d10/round, so that seems about right. It also bypasses immunity/resistance. And never extinguishes, even after it kills you, so your corpse will still be on fire.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-24, 06:45 PM
Yes but one would have to wish to be moved to the lava.

Fulfilling your wish required moving you to the intersection of six different ley-lines to gather enough energy to make it come to pass. It took you to the most convenient one, which happened to be in the very center of a lake of lava.

Doomboy911
2010-12-24, 06:48 PM
Better but one should wish for their kingdom to be on the plane they're currently on.

Aquillion
2010-12-24, 11:41 PM
Nonmagical fire is 1d4/round. This is "you irritated the cosmic threads of magic so much that the universe is punishing you" fire. A Major Fire-dominant plane deals 3d10/round, so that seems about right. It also bypasses immunity/resistance. And never extinguishes, even after it kills you, so your corpse will still be on fire.Hmm.

Well, it sucks to be the guy who dies, but on the other hand, hey, the rest of their party gets to grab their corpse and use it as an improvised weapon! I'm sure there's lots of other things you can think of doing with an Everburning Corpse.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-24, 11:47 PM
Hmm.

Well, it sucks to be the guy who dies, but on the other hand, hey, the rest of their party gets to grab their corpse and use it as an improvised weapon! I'm sure there's lots of other things you can think of doing with an Everburning Corpse.
...

Like give it a Greater Ring of Fire Resistance and then Animate it as an Everburning Zombie/Skeleton/Mhorg/Spectre/Whatever?

FelixG
2010-12-25, 01:36 AM
You'd need to specify the kingdom, though, and then the kingdom wouldn't be set on fire, you'd just be set on fire more.

"ok I want the kingdom of Glyphieness and... in the contract created by the wish...I think I will have a small bit of invisible fine print saying that commoner over there giving me funny looks will be lit on fire instead of me upon the completion of this wish....and a Pie...I want a pie to go with my universe breaking kingdom deed contract."

:smalltongue:

I want to see the horrible repercussions of this one!

Jack_Simth
2010-12-25, 08:05 AM
"ok I want the kingdom of Glyphieness and... in the contract created by the wish...I think I will have a small bit of invisible fine print saying that commoner over there giving me funny looks will be lit on fire instead of me upon the completion of this wish....and a Pie...I want a pie to go with my universe breaking kingdom deed contract."

:smalltongue:

I want to see the horrible repercussions of this one!
That commoner over there giving you funny looks becomes *so* set on fire that he detonates, leaving a crater big enough to also encompass you in the sheer mass of destruction.

And the pie is like the cake.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-25, 08:33 AM
Hmm.

Well, it sucks to be the guy who dies, but on the other hand, hey, the rest of their party gets to grab their corpse and use it as an improvised weapon! I'm sure there's lots of other things you can think of doing with an Everburning Corpse.


...

Like give it a Greater Ring of Fire Resistance and then Animate it as an Everburning Zombie/Skeleton/Mhorg/Spectre/Whatever?

Well, note that the fire bypasses resistance and immunity...so anyone touching it also takes the damage, and if it's animated as undead, it'll just start taking damage again. But if you can pick it up without touching it, hilarity can indeed ensue for your non-Wish-abusing party.


"ok I want the kingdom of Glyphieness and... in the contract created by the wish...I think I will have a small bit of invisible fine print saying that commoner over there giving me funny looks will be lit on fire instead of me upon the completion of this wish....and a Pie...I want a pie to go with my universe breaking kingdom deed contract."

:smalltongue:

I want to see the horrible repercussions of this one!

The pie becomes set on fire, as does the commoner. You become set on acid instead. No, that doesn't make any sense.

The Big Dice
2010-12-25, 09:09 AM
The pie becomes set on fire, as does the commoner. You become set on acid instead. No, that doesn't make any sense.

I does in D&D, where you can be set on cold, poison or sound too.

FelixG
2010-12-25, 09:38 AM
I does in D&D, where you can be set on cold, poison or sound too.

The sound of the GM slapping you with the DMG resonates so fearsomely it penetrates the game and destroys your character and everything within five miles

Doomboy911
2010-12-26, 11:28 AM
You want pie okay I'll put the ten thousand pound pie above your head so you can just open your mouth and eat it right away.

PersonMan
2010-12-26, 12:03 PM
You want pie okay I'll put the ten thousand pound pie above your head so you can just open your mouth and eat it right away.

It's on fire, too.

...It also tastes very bad. And is burnt. Because it's on fire.

Androgeus
2010-12-26, 01:06 PM
It's on fire, too.

...It also tastes very bad. And is burnt. Because it's on fire.

It's not on fire, the pie filling IS fire!

The Glyphstone
2010-12-26, 01:14 PM
It's not on fire, the pie filling IS fire!

And the fire filling is also on fire. So is the crust.

Keinnicht
2010-12-26, 03:05 PM
"ok I want the kingdom of Glyphieness and... in the contract created by the wish...I think I will have a small bit of invisible fine print saying that commoner over there giving me funny looks will be lit on fire instead of me upon the completion of this wish....and a Pie...I want a pie to go with my universe breaking kingdom deed contract."

:smalltongue:

I want to see the horrible repercussions of this one!

Unfortunately, you failed to specify that the Commoner was not going to be turned into a Hecantoires that hates you on a personal level and is going to kill you.

PersonMan
2010-12-26, 03:59 PM
Unfortunately, you failed to specify that the Commoner was not going to be turned into a Hecantoires that hates you on a personal level and is going to kill you.

Who is made of fire, and on fire.

...You're on fire.

Doomboy911
2010-12-26, 06:37 PM
Now if you want a normal non fire filled pie we can just take one right off the nearest window sill and since you want it right now we'll have to move it at a few hundred miles per hour on account of how far away it is. Can't be helped to slow it down since you want it now.

Or maybe we can give him his kingdom they can each just give him a pie whenever they see him. Bring on the citizens baking pies non stop chucking it at you.

Remember making pies aren't cheap they'll take that out of the vault.

Keinnicht
2010-12-26, 11:45 PM
ITT: Why you should just say what you want, and hope the DM's feeling nice. Trying to make it busting-proof is like walking down the middle of the interstate wearing all black at 2 AM, drunk, having said earlier that night "Boy, I'm going to live a long and fulfilling life."

FelixG
2010-12-27, 03:10 AM
Now if you want a normal non fire filled pie we can just take one right off the nearest window sill and since you want it right now we'll have to move it at a few hundred miles per hour on account of how far away it is. Can't be helped to slow it down since you want it now.


Well, luckily it will stroke a catgirl before impact and implode into nothingness before it can strike me!

Also:

NEW ARISTOCRAT ONLY FLAW: Chicken Pie cursed

candycorn
2010-12-27, 09:49 AM
I came up with the idea if I were to ever get the ring of three wishes I had this set up that seemed fool proof. So I need some ruling if you can twist the idea.

Wish one:I wish to legally have thirty bags of holding (level six I think the largest is called) without paying for them

Wish two: I wish they were filled to the brim with platinum coins without breaking the bag.

Wish three: I wish the platinum pieces were legal tender freshly made and cooled also no one could think of a reason not to take them from me.

So can this be twisted in anyway you can think?

All three wishes are accomplished with just 2 spells.

Teleport without error - to Albernia's capitol city!
Arcane Mark - To mark your entry into the fantastic Tournament of Cuddles the Colossus King!

1 contestant at a time. Upon entering (condition for entry: Your entry is also a will, leaving all your worldly possessions to Cuddles, should you die before claiming your bags of holding), you are given an adventurer's kit consisting of nonmagical weapons, and armor, and up to 200 gold in mundane miscellaneous equipment. You're also made the proud owner of 60 bags of holding, filled with platinum.... All you have to do is reach them, through the Chamber of Ineffable Horror Teddy Bears and Tentacle beasts Bunnies*!

* - CoIHTBaTBB currently has a survival rate of 0%, as it is inhabited by epic level Theurges with Epic spells.

afroakuma
2010-12-27, 11:13 AM
I have seen only one wish whose internal wording cannot be reinterpreted. However, the power, scope and complexity of that wish almost certainly means it fails in some other fashion - just not one that strictly follows a literalist reading. Instead, the partial fulfillment restriction activates (despite the wish designer's quite stringent intent that it not do so) ands then some very bad things happen.

It should be noted that that wish was generated as a thought experiment after several loophole probes by yours truly and uses legalese, clauses and subclauses, and a supposedly non-reinterpretable language. So it's really no fun.

Oh, and by the way, if you wish that "no one can think of a reason not to take these coins from me," savage and horrible things will happen to you involving everyone ever trying to steal your money.

Doomboy911
2010-12-27, 11:59 AM
Yes that last wish was in the intent to make sure the money was worth something in the end. It didn't end well. Perhaps wishing that every time I spoke dominate monster was cast on the person I was speaking to (unless I specified that I wasn't trying to dominate them).

This way I can get pretty much anything I'm after maybe have to avoid mages and those immune to mind effecting spells but it covers alot.

Toliudar
2010-12-27, 01:52 PM
Indeed, if the ability to use a 9th level spell at will as a supernatural ability were in the power of a wish to grant (um, no), that would go a long way towards forming a pliant army.

Doomboy911
2010-12-27, 02:05 PM
Crud I could always wish to put something like that on a item in this case sunglasses.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 02:14 PM
Crud I could always wish to put something like that on a item in this case sunglasses.

Oh, that's too easy to twist. It works, Dominate Monster is cast from the sunglasses. The sunglasses happen to be an intelligent item (the only way such a powerful spell could happen at-will), so the 'caster' of the Dominate effect is the glasses, not you. The glasses are very lazy, and extremely averse to being given orders, and have a tremendous Ego score. Make sure you never look into a mirror and talk to yourself.

Doomboy911
2010-12-27, 02:24 PM
Not being able to look in the mirror and talk to myself? Why that goes against my ego.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-27, 05:37 PM
Indeed, if the ability to use a 9th level spell at will as a supernatural ability were in the power of a wish to grant (um, no), that would go a long way towards forming a pliant army.
You can get Dominate Person at will by becoming a Vampire. Partial Fulfillment - there you go. There's even 'rules' for using Wish to gain such a template in Savage Species....

Doomboy911
2010-12-27, 07:32 PM
That's not exactly the worst ending. Immortality with dominating. I could also wish that everyone who wished to cause me bodily harm would see me as something they'd see no need to harm.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 07:34 PM
That's not exactly the worst ending. Immortality with dominating. I could also wish that everyone who wished to cause me bodily harm would see me as something they'd see no need to harm.

Bring on the legions of blind vampire hunters.:smallwink:

If you're okay with the +8 LA template (and weaknesses) and the limitation of Dominate Person instead of Dominate Monster, then it does end up as a fair all-round solution.

Doomboy911
2010-12-27, 07:39 PM
Well I meant a vampire hunter would see me as the hostage of some vampires I was hanging with or an adventuring party would see me a some npc.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-27, 07:50 PM
Well I meant a vampire hunter would see me as the hostage of some vampires I was hanging with or an adventuring party would see me a some npc.
That may be what you meant, but the simplest way to make adventurers see you as something there's no need to harm is to use Polymorph Any Object on you to turn you into something harmless - a pebble, say. And do note that as Polymorph Any Object will affect such things as pebbles, you don't get immunity for being Undead.

candycorn
2010-12-27, 07:50 PM
Well I meant a vampire hunter would see me as the hostage of some vampires I was hanging with or an adventuring party would see me a some npc.

Problem: Wishes that alter the perceptions of everyone in the world rarely go by what YOU meant.

PaOing you into a rock would be the easiest solution. Nobody sees a need to harm a rock.

Doomboy911
2010-12-27, 08:08 PM
Yes but it's not affecting everyone in the world only the amount that I see.

I could say an illusion of something harmless would be placed upon me whenever someone who'd want to harm me was about to be able to see me.

This way if someone tries to scry they see something harmless and figure they messed something up.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-27, 08:31 PM
That's not exactly the worst ending. Immortality with dominating. I could also wish that everyone who wished to cause me bodily harm would see me as something they'd see no need to harm.
Oh yes, and I almost forgot:
Vampire Spawn get that ability too, and you've got a problem if you made this Wish during the day. See, the DM doesn't specifically need to tell you what happened immediately....

Doomboy911
2010-12-27, 08:51 PM
Hmm it seems that one of the steps for the wish is to find a safe place to stay in. Something that when the wish goes off you'll be protected from most events. Maybe hire some wizards to deal with any unwanted ramifications. Get dimensional lock place on yourself to avoid the pits of never ending pain and humiliation you forgot to specify that you didn't want to be in. Endure the elements for when the burns reach stage three. A nice clone spell for when your remains become fertilizer. For added hilarity make them lawyer wizards who can just claim they saw it coming.

candycorn
2010-12-28, 08:46 AM
Yes but it's not affecting everyone in the world only the amount that I see.

I could say an illusion of something harmless would be placed upon me whenever someone who'd want to harm me was about to be able to see me.

This way if someone tries to scry they see something harmless and figure they messed something up.

Except that's effectively an arbitrarily large number of Contingencies triggered to something that would need a No save version of detect thoughts to trigger...

That's well beyond the power of a wish.

An 8th level spell (PaO)? Is not. Therefore, your intent doesn't really matter. When you try to wish for more than a wish can do, Bad Things happen.

Not to mention that with the various ways to thwart illusions, would make that a stunningly ineffective and yet still overpowered wish.


Hmm it seems that one of the steps for the wish is to find a safe place to stay in. Something that when the wish goes off you'll be protected from most events. Maybe hire some wizards to deal with any unwanted ramifications. Get dimensional lock place on yourself to avoid the pits of never ending pain and humiliation you forgot to specify that you didn't want to be in. Endure the elements for when the burns reach stage three. A nice clone spell for when your remains become fertilizer. For added hilarity make them lawyer wizards who can just claim they saw it coming.

Wish can pick people up and move them anywhere, regardless of local conditions. If a wish deigns to transport you, you are transported, even in a dimensional lock. Also, technically, when a wish transports you, it isn't technically teleportation.

Jay R
2010-12-28, 09:47 AM
Ask for a magic item that the DM thinks is fun but not game-warping. Request a challenge, not a freebie. (Don't ask for an unguarded treasure; ask for a treasure guarded by something your team can beat.) Most especially, don't ask for anything, like bags of platinum coins, that will reduce rather than expand the ability to play.

But the safestway to use a Wish is to understand the DM 's motivations and interests, and to wish for something you know she thinks is cool and campaign-safe (ideally, a wish that ends something that is frustrating the DM as well as you).

Any competent player knows the rules. A good player knows the exceptions. A great player knows the DM.

The Big Dice
2010-12-28, 11:05 AM
The only time I ever used a Wish as a player was after my Paladinfailed a great many Climb checks, leaving him stuck at the bottom of the cliff while everyone else was at the top. The Wish came from an item. I forget what, but bearing in mind that the campaign had us wandering round with some 3 million in loot by level 3, it doesn't matter.

The Wish was "I wish I was up there."