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View Full Version : [3.5] Two-handed arcane gish, need advice



pilvento
2010-12-22, 10:37 PM
hello again, in my last threads i asked how to start/optimice/play my new PC for our next campaing here with my friends and im very gratefull for all your help. the new dilema is that now one of my close friends/party members asked me to pst here in the playground and and see if u can give him a hand too, ok, here it comes.

the idea he has is simple, play a martial/arcane melee fighter.

he wants to use:
-2handed weapons
-armor, at least medium (we cant waste stats in dex)
-int rather than cha for spellcasting

we can start as duskblade (must be human) but what to do next? can we find some good PrC for this class? he wants to use magic and martial skills to deal masive damage, no need to make a full caster (this is also his first PC).


House rules are no rulez! exept that we avoid Tome of Battle...

Thanks, any sugestion is wellcome!

HunterOfJello
2010-12-22, 11:01 PM
I think most duskblades stick with the base class and avoid going into Prestige Classes because of the class features that they would lose. Duskblade on its own already satisfies all of the qualifiers you've set up.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 11:12 PM
What level are you starting?
How soon does he want to start bashing people with magic?
How much magic does he want to wield?
What sources can you draw from?

[Edit]: Has he seen the swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)? :smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2010-12-22, 11:20 PM
Duskblade20 is a perfectly practical t3 build. Power attack, knowledge devotion, arcane strike, and obtain/improved familiar are all good feats. I'd recommend a nice martial reach weapon like a glaive.

pilvento
2010-12-22, 11:29 PM
ill get you some more info then:

this is a steampunk campaing, eberron u can say.
he will be using a steam-engine chainsword...
we are starting lvl 3.
we can use all sources exept ToB.
he wont play swiftblade, i played it last campaing as a monk sorcerer so...

Coidzor
2010-12-22, 11:33 PM
-2handed weapons
Not a problem at all. Removing one hand from a two handed weapon is a free action, as is replacing the hand.


-armor, at least medium (we cant waste stats in dex)

Also not a problem, though the particulars vary between multiclass gish or the methods of obtaining "gish in a can." The Twilight magic armor property(Book of Exalted Deeds?), githcraft or feycraft armor quality/template(DMG II), thistledown padding (Races of the Wild) are of interest here. As are mithral breastplates, or mithral tumblers' breastplates (Races of Stone?) if you can grab tumble.

Of course duskblade doesn't care about ASF, and dipping Spellsword takes care of a fair bit as well.


--int rather than cha for spellcasting
Ok, so you have 3 ways of doing this AFAIK.

1. Standard multiclass gish using wizard as the casting class. (mostly kicks off after level 6ish and is best with PrCs, the more the merrier) Full range of spells and depending upon how one does it, can get 9th level spells and pinch hit for the caster or act as a caster for utility during downtime/as necessary.

2. Duskblade (which doesn't need PrCs, though some people use it as the base for suel arcanamach builds) Most limited casting as it only goes to 5th level spells and then only at high levels, but gets a lot more spells per day. Downside again is that it also knows very, very few spells, upside is that of the spell list it has, it's very easy to make some optimal choices and apply that toolset across many combat scenarios. Though poor choice can have that tool set not be as able to be applied to as many situations.

3. Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger (dragon magazine material, from issue #336) with either Militia or an EWP to get a nice two-hander main weapon. Has the most risk of suffering from MAD if you can't get appropriate stat boosting items (need 15 wisdom with items in order to get spell slots up to 5th level, need Int 15+ for the arcane spells). Also only gets going after level 6, since Sword of the Arcane Order requires Ranger 4. Ranger and Wizard 5th level spells at level 10, and only increases in spells per day after 10th level, so can afford to lose caster levels with things like Master of Many Forms or dip bard or something and sublime chord it up in high levels.

Good gishy PrCs include all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) the golden standard of gish classes, the first levels of Spellsword(Complete Warrior) and Dragonslayer(Draconomicon), the first breakoff point of Swiftblade (web), and Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine). As well as any other +1 BAB, +1 spellcasting level PrC level. Though I can't recall any others offhand without having to eat a lost spellcasting level or point of BAB first.

9/10th, 4/5, 2/3 casting classes like Human paragon (Unearthed Arcana), Eldritch Knight (DMG), Cyran Avenger (5 Nations?), or Knight Phantom (5 Nations, Eberron) are mostly for filling in after full BAB, full spellcasting classes are tapped out. Sacred Exorcist is 3/4 BAB, full spellcasting and adds some potential versatility in the form of Turn Undead allowing new feats to be selected.

Also, BAB can go as low as 16 and still get all iteratives (and with magic, the lower BAB doesn't matter quite so much anyway), whereas spellcasting level can only go down to 17 if one wants to have 9th level spells (assuming one is going standard wizard-based gish), 15th if one wants 8ths, though that's generally pushing it to have that many non-spellcasting levels in a gish build.

You could also do something with a beguiler, but those guys are much more limited and more suited to other roles, as they don't get that much in the way of spells that augment themselves.

An artificer is arguably intelligence or charisma based, but generally isn't what one would think of as a gish, though meleeificers can be viable, especially if they have some minor hordeficer tendencies.

Greenish
2010-12-22, 11:46 PM
Well, taking a page from sorcadin, adapted for wizards: fighter 2/wizard 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/eldritch knight 8.

EK can be replaced by Knight Phantom if he wants to be an Aundairian veteran.

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-22, 11:49 PM
You shouldn't totally dump DEX. If you get Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit, you can get a lot of extra hits with your attacks of opportunity. This would allow you to take more advantage of the bonuses you get from Arcane Strike.

Gorgondantess
2010-12-22, 11:51 PM
Honestly? Just go duskblade. Wearing medium armor, dishing out massive damage with a combination of melee & spells, and not being a fullcaster are the things a duskblade does best.
Most people pooh-poo the duskblade because it's a severely nonstandard gish. See, something like a sorcadin doesn't do damage spells- instead, it buffs itself until it's oozing magic and then goes to town with ridiculously high... well, everything. Meanwhile, a duskblade is a mediocre buffer- what it does is it just tags on huge damage dealing spells to its melee attacks through channeling, and there you go!
Otherwise, for most gishes the "wearing medium armor" thing is... well, worthless. You're getting just a few more AC from a mithral fullplate over a twilight mithral chain shirt or just a greater mage armor, which is easily shored up with your miss chances from your buffing & +9 shield bonus from Abjurant Champion, just to name a few. And you've lost a few CL to get the medium armor casting in the meanwhile.:smallyuk:

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 12:02 AM
As another note, in medium or heavy armor, one can't get the delicious extra armor properties of dastana (and chahar-aina) that light armor allows for.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention, but the Mystic Ranger can also (with the emphasis on INT adding bonus skill points) take up the trapmonkey role in the group thanks to an ACF in Dungeonscape (though you'd still need an adamantine mace or sommat to deal with locks) and take advantage of the nifty Arcane Hunter(?) ACF in, I believe, Complete Mage, assuming the DM is flexible enough to allow trading the first favored enemy in if it's gained at 2nd level rather than 1st.

pilvento
2010-12-23, 12:07 AM
wow so much to read, thanks.

side note: character concept is Haseo form HAck G.U. series

Godskook
2010-12-23, 02:34 AM
Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5/DB +2 is a great build if he absolutely refuses to go straight Duskblade.

For a duskblade chassis, do *NOT* bother with spellsword. Armored Mage(Medium) gets you mitrhal full plate, which is almost as good as armor gets.

Also, 1-level dip into sacred exorcist is worth it if he grabs a method of burning turning attempts(probably a devotion feat). Duskblade doesn't get any "amazing" class features after level 13, but you'll be hard pressed to find a full-BAB full-casting prestige class other than AbChamp to dip into.

A 1-2 level dip into a ToB class to cap him off is a tempting, but maybe not worth it kind of option.

Regardless, start with Duskblade 13. Full-attack channel is *that* good.


On a side note, Duskblade gets some spells at earlier levels than almost any other class(such as Resist Energy). Take note of these, as they can be worth their weight in gold. (You can undercut a potion merchant, selling Resist Energy potions at 75gp when the Ranger price is 100gp, and that's still a 25gp *PURE* profit from the upsale). While not as useful at higher levels, when everyone starts knowing about Dispel, in the early game, nobody cares about caster level that much on a spell like that.

LordBlades
2010-12-23, 02:57 AM
Assuming you want to go the typical wizard gish (much more pwoerful option than the duskblade) your natural form dex won't be much of a problem, as you probably won't be doing much fighting without polymorph.

My favourite gish build(actually not my favourite since I'd use an outsider for it, but if you must be human....) is fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 7.

Also, when feats are concerned, Knowledge Devotion and Arcane Disciple: Competition or War are my recommendations.

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 03:13 AM
On a side note, Duskblade gets some spells at earlier levels than almost any other class(such as Resist Energy). Take note of these, as they can be worth their weight in gold. (You can undercut a potion merchant, selling Resist Energy potions at 75gp when the Ranger price is 100gp, and that's still a 25gp *PURE* profit from the upsale). While not as useful at higher levels, when everyone starts knowing about Dispel, in the early game, nobody cares about caster level that much on a spell like that.

Duskblades are notoriously feat starved, and unless feat-retraining is an option, I would have to recommend against taking Brew Potion or another item creation feat. Now, working together with a party item crafter, that is a plan.

Duskblade Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0)for reference.

Knight Phantom PRC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)as well.

Some other general gish links. Some information about base classes and PrCs most suitable for gish builds. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868042/Character_Build_Spotlight:_Gish)

This attempt at a gish handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786.0)brings up runesmith and bladesinger(good for a 1 level dip for elves, maybe ruathars depending upon how the DM rules them)

A discussion on gish armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73879)

a proposed mounted gish build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156701) using a hippogriff improved familiar.

Feats discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176281)

Most recent gish builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172083)discussion that I recall. Another thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158439) And another (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65713).

Oh, that reminds me, if TWF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177489)is of any interest, Eilserv school Feat (Drow of the Underdark) + a magic staff is a better combo that most light weapons, especially if one gets to wield a custom staff that's rechargeable so that it can also be enchanted as a weapon.

AslanCross
2010-12-23, 04:37 AM
Straight Duskblade is fine. Abjurant Champion is a good PrC that the Duskblade qualifies for without much help.

Since you're in Eberron, Knight Phantom is a good option, but Duskblades don't really get the Phantom Steed spell.

Godskook
2010-12-23, 10:19 AM
Duskblades are notoriously feat starved, and unless feat-retraining is an option, I would have to recommend against taking Brew Potion or another item creation feat. Now, working together with a party item crafter, that is a plan.

Wasn't clear, but yes, that was what I was suggesting.

pilvento
2010-12-23, 03:34 PM
ok, the build is looking good now thanks to your advices.

Duskblade lvls as a start for the chanelling and since the caracter high stats will be STR and INT i got some ideas:

-insightfull strike swashbuckler (not shure it works with two-handed weapons)
-warmage feature to ad INT to spell damage. warmage is also a good idea sinse its spell progresion is agreseve and faster than the duskblade. can warmage and duskblade spellcasting stack if i use a PrC like ultimate magus?

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 03:43 PM
Duskblade lvls as a start for the chanelling and since the caracter high stats will be STR and INT i got some ideas:

-insightfull strike swashbuckler (not shure it works with two-handed weapons)
-warmage feature to ad INT to spell damage. warmage is also a good idea sinse its spell progresion is agreseve and faster than the duskblade. can warmage and duskblade spellcasting stack if i use a PrC like ultimate magus?

I believe Ultimate Magus needs 1 prepared caster and 1 spontaneous caster. IIRC, Duskblade and Warmage are spontaneous casters and so wouldn't work.

Also, Warmage is horrible for a gish, as all it is is blasting. If you want to blast that much, be a specialist wizard or a sorcerer, you'd be better at it.

Duskblade 3's single attack channeling becomes worth progressively less the more iterative attacks a character gets. And Duskblade 13 precludes anything but an incomplete Sublime Chord build. OR if you somehow manage DM approval, with polymorphing from a friend/NPCs, an incomplete Beholder Mage build.

AFAIK, Swashbuckler just adds INT, with no further provisions about what weapons it applies to.

pilvento
2010-12-23, 04:09 PM
I believe Ultimate Magus needs 1 prepared caster and 1 spontaneous caster. IIRC, Duskblade and Warmage are spontaneous casters and so wouldn't work.

Also, Warmage is horrible for a gish, as all it is is blasting. If you want to blast that much, be a specialist wizard or a sorcerer, you'd be better at it.

Duskblade 3's single attack channeling becomes worth progressively less the more iterative attacks a character gets. And Duskblade 13 precludes anything but an incomplete Sublime Chord build. OR if you somehow manage DM approval, with polymorphing from a friend/NPCs, an incomplete Beholder Mage build.

AFAIK, Swashbuckler just adds INT, with no further provisions about what weapons it applies to.


true, need 1 prepared and 1 spontaneous for ultimate magus.

Going into swashbuckler is not a good idea now that i realize it cost about 3 casting lvls...

i know warmage is only a blasting class but ad more base dmg to the attacks is always good. weapon + str + spell + int. its ok if this character is only a blaster / mele fighter. ill tell u more about the party members:

- the gish we are building (mele fighter and blaster)
- a fierce werewolf (tank and mele beast)
- CLOISTER! cleric (lost of buffs and crowd control)
- archer/bard (more buffs and some ranged damage from time to time)

so as u see if this caracter specialices only in damage we are still perfect!

O_Y
2010-12-23, 04:22 PM
You could probably use something like Arcane Preparation (a feat in Complete Arcane) to qualify for a Duskblade/Warmage Ultimate Magus, but I'm not sure what you'd gain from it - a single-classed Cleric, Duskblade, Bard or Battle Sorcerer gish would be easier to both build and play and would be better at pretty much everything (EDIT: including damage).

DOUBLE EDIT:
V link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c)

Shenanigans
2010-12-23, 04:30 PM
If you don't want to go with Duskblade and Forgotten Realms books are legal, you might want to take a peek at the Raumathari Battlemage from Unapproachable East. One of my friends made a highly effective Wizard/Spellsword/Raumathari Battlemage with Arcane Strike.

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 04:30 PM
It sounds like you're lacking in utility that the cleric can't provide, actually, as even with good domain selection there'll be gaps, even with something like Anyspell to help make up for it. And the bard seems like it would be stretched between magically augmenting itself in combat, social situations, and augmenting others in combat due to its limited spells known.

And a specialist wizard, especially if a conjuration one would be able to provide blasting/buffing/debuffing/battlefield control and provide utility when not fighting, unlike duskblade, warmage, or a mixture thereof. Which I feel you're undervaluing in comparison to the minor damage buff that warmage would give, especially since PrCing out of warmage would be essential for a gish build.

If someone else already has the melee damage output niche and tanking, that means that there's less need for the gish to focus on blasting and can afford a bit more multipurpose use by having the flexibility of wizard casting.

And since the Cloistered cleric could go DMM, or even short-term Clericzilla and still be a better melee fighter than this gish character even with channeled blasting spells...

pilvento
2010-12-23, 04:36 PM
If you don't want to go with Duskblade and Forgotten Realms books are legal, you might want to take a peek at the Raumathari Battlemage from Unapproachable East. One of my friends made a highly effective Wizard/Spellsword/Raumathari Battlemage with Arcane Strike.

must admit that is a nice PrC thanks a lot.

EDIT: wait, only a d4 hit dice !?

pilvento
2010-12-23, 04:51 PM
It sounds like you're lacking in utility that the cleric can't provide, actually, as even with good domain selection there'll be gaps, even with something like Anyspell to help make up for it. And the bard seems like it would be stretched between magically augmenting itself in combat, social situations, and augmenting others in combat due to its limited spells known.

And a specialist wizard, especially if a conjuration one would be able to provide blasting/buffing/debuffing/battlefield control and provide utility when not fighting, unlike duskblade, warmage, or a mixture thereof. Which I feel you're undervaluing in comparison to the minor damage buff that warmage would give, especially since PrCing out of warmage would be essential for a gish build.

If someone else already has the melee damage output niche and tanking, that means that there's less need for the gish to focus on blasting and can afford a bit more multipurpose use by having the flexibility of wizard casting.

And since the Cloistered cleric could go DMM, or even short-term Clericzilla and still be a better melee fighter than this gish character even with channeled blasting spells...

cleric has vow of peace or no violence, not shure yet he warned us he will avoid doing damage at all, the bard well just a bard for now. and the DM warned us since this is his first time as a DM "IF MORE THAN ONE OF YOU DARES TO PLAY A FULL CASTER U WILL BE DEAD BEFORE WE START" this is our second campaing, first was 2 rouges, a fighter, a ordained champion and a max spell lvl 6 gish swiftblade. that was our first campaing.

EDIT: the cleric was our last DM and he is insane at optimizing

Shenanigans
2010-12-23, 04:51 PM
must admit that is a nice PrC thanks a lot.

EDIT: wait, only a d4 hit dice !?
The d4 hit dice aren't as much of a hit as you might think. With a decent CON score and the kind of crazy armor a gish should have, it's not as problematic as you think. That said, you won't have HP to be throwing away either, hence the hitting enemies really really hard.

pilvento
2010-12-23, 04:53 PM
The d4 hit dice aren't as much of a hit as you might think. With a decent CON score and the kind of crazy armor a gish should have, it's not as problematic as you think. That said, you won't have HP to be throwing away either, hence the hitting enemies really really hard.

ture, my lvl 20 swiftblade gish of last campaing ended with less than 140 hp