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TelemontTanthul
2010-12-22, 11:02 PM
Okay, so here is the deal:

I play a Human Bard (3.5e, Lv. 6, almost 7), and he carries with him an ordinary short sword and a dagger. His chosen type of performance is playing the fiddle. That is basically all of his equipment (No magic items yet :smallfrown: )

He has absolutely no damage spells. (He focuses more on controlling people than fighting, however our party seems to fight more than anything else)

While I have been creative, and influential in combat, I was wondering if anyone has ever managed to make a non-lethal spell (Ex: Suggestion, Minor Image, etc ) cause lethal damage.

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An example I once pulled off:

We were attacked by wolves, and I cast the spell Prestidigitation (PH) to make one of the wolves smell like freshly cooked meat. (You can influence the scent of objects using the spell)

The result? The wolves, who happened to be starving, turned on their pack and attacked the unfortunate former comrade.

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Of course, I understand that the DM has a lot of say over whether or not any crazy scheme I come up with will work, but what I want to know is if anyone has ever successfully used a Non-Lethal Spell for Lethal Purposes.

Thanks a bunch,

Telemont

Halna LeGavilk
2010-12-22, 11:04 PM
I frequently use Mage Hand to cause aneurysms and such in the blood vessels of the brain.

Siosilvar
2010-12-22, 11:15 PM
While I have been creative, and influential in combat, I was wondering if anyone has ever managed to make a non-lethal spell (Ex: Suggestion, Minor Image, etc ) cause lethal damage.

Snowcasting (Frostburn) + Flash Frost (PHBII) adds 2 points of cold damage per spell level to an area spell.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-22, 11:48 PM
I frequently use Mage Hand to cause aneurysms and such in the blood vessels of the brain.

Durrrwhat? That's a really, really permissive DM you've got there.:smallannoyed::smalleek:

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-22, 11:58 PM
We used to have a wizard who made liberal use of Suggestions. He once suggested to a lieutenant among a group of enemies, "Why don't you clear away the rabble in front of you so we can get down to business?" The lieutenant (who was a Predator rip-off) blasted half his subordinates with his shoulder cannon before coming to his senses.

mootoall
2010-12-23, 12:00 AM
I frequently use Mage Hand to cause aneurysms and such in the blood vessels of the brain.

Don't you need line of sight for Mage Hand?

TelemontTanthul
2010-12-23, 12:49 AM
Question:

Would "Create Water" be considered capable of dealing damage to creatures if you cast it above their heads?

...or would the monsters just be slightly miffed at being wet?

It creates a sizable amount of it. :smallbiggrin:

Shalist
2010-12-23, 01:00 AM
Durrrwhat? That's a really, really permissive DM you've got there.:smallannoyed::smalleek:

I assume he means the DM's brain :P

And I've found that the best way to cause lethal damage with a nonlethal spell is to stand next to the target while casting it.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-23, 01:25 AM
We were attacked by wolves, and I cast the spell Prestidigitation (PH) to make one of the wolves smell like freshly cooked meat. (You can influence the scent of objects using the spell)

The result? The wolves, who happened to be starving, turned on their pack and attacked the unfortunate former comrade.
There's a problem with that scenario: a wolf (living creature) isn't an item (object) and so isn't a valid target for Prestidigitation to affect.
A prestidigitation can ... flavor 1 pound of nonliving material

Hyooz
2010-12-23, 01:43 AM
I frequently use Mage Hand to cause aneurysms and such in the blood vessels of the brain.

My players do this too, but then I point out there's no rules for aneurysms in DnD, make the guy's eye twitch slightly before poking himself with Cure Minor Wounds to repair the damage completely.

Godskook
2010-12-23, 01:58 AM
An example I once pulled off:

We were attacked by wolves, and I cast the spell Prestidigitation (PH) to make one of the wolves smell like freshly cooked meat. (You can influence the scent of objects using the spell)

The result? The wolves, who happened to be starving, turned on their pack and attacked the unfortunate former comrade.

Good bluff roll against your DM, he never saw it coming.

Real wolves are smart enough *AND* loyal enough to ignore your deception, and to be *THAT* hungry that they'd change plans mid-stream like that would imply that they'd have never gone pack-hunting to begin with.

Re'ozul
2010-12-23, 03:11 AM
Good bluff roll against your DM, he never saw it coming.

Real wolves are smart enough *AND* loyal enough to ignore your deception, and to be *THAT* hungry that they'd change plans mid-stream like that would imply that they'd have never gone pack-hunting to begin with.

Well, while it wouldn't be as lethal. You could use Presti to make your clothes smell like some animal that is poisonous or inedible to wolves.

Jan Mattys
2010-12-23, 03:15 AM
Well, while it wouldn't be as lethal. You could use Presti to make your clothes smell like some animal that is poisonous or inedible to wolves.

Yes, if you know exactly what a poisonous snake smells to a wolf.

Which I kinda doubt, considering you're a human being with neither the experience nor the smell sense necessary to.

Zeful
2010-12-23, 03:17 AM
Don't you need line of sight for Mage Hand?

Line of Effect actually. But either way, that's not actually possible with Mage Hand (just like saying that you can cause nuclear explosions with it).

snikrept
2010-12-23, 03:37 AM
Minor Image seems like it could be fatal if you used it to simulate floor panels where there was actually a pit trap or something.

Fouredged Sword
2010-12-23, 06:36 AM
Shape spell feat and glitterdust. That small Aoe turns into a rather large area. Really good for blinding everything on the battlefield.

grarrrg
2010-12-23, 07:10 AM
And I've found that the best way to cause lethal damage with a nonlethal spell is to stand next to the target while casting it.

:smallcool:I see what you did there.:smallwink:

Fallbot
2010-12-23, 08:21 AM
There's a problem with that scenario: a wolf (living creature) isn't an item (object) and so isn't a valid target for Prestidigitation to affect.

We got round this by using the spell to scent an arrow and then shooting our target with it. Though we were dealing with an uneasy alliance of half-blind trolls and humans, not wolves. It was pretty silly, and I don't think the DM would allow it again though.

mootoall
2010-12-23, 08:29 AM
Minor Image seems like it could be fatal if you used it to simulate floor panels where there was actually a pit trap or something.

Heh, that's just good dungeoncrafting right there :smallwink: It'd be interesting to see how your Will save to disbelieve works with that ...

"I continue down the hall."
"Will save, please."
*Oh, god, what is it? Dominate Person? Hold Person? Oh god oh god oh god*
*Rolls a 20*
"Wow, alright! I made the save, so I continue down the hall."
*DM rolls dice*
"You take 20d6 falling damage, plus pit spikes. Also, you have no idea how you fell."

Quietus
2010-12-23, 08:41 AM
Better is doing that with Shadow.. Conjuration? So that if they fail their saves, they can walk right across it.

Best combined with a really low save DC.

boomwolf
2010-12-23, 09:51 AM
Better is doing that with Shadow.. Conjuration? So that if they fail their saves, they can walk right across it.

Best combined with a really low save DC.

Hehe...I used that trick to make my players go crazy...

See, you got a corridor, the left part is a pit trap covered with SC panels, and the right is a normal floor with illusionary pit trap...madness! (they eventually jumped across. but there is a pit rap covered with SC panels covered with a pit trap illusion there. evil!)

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-23, 09:56 AM
Hehe...I used that trick to make my players go crazy...

See, you got a corridor, the left part is a pit trap covered with SC panels, and the right is a normal floor with illusionary pit trap...madness! (they eventually jumped across. but there is a pit rap covered with SC panels covered with a pit trap illusion there. evil!)

Those kind of dungeons are what Rings of Flight were invented for.

My favorite was the Grease spell, right on the edge of the cliff... wheeeeee *SPLORTCH*

Godskook
2010-12-23, 10:32 AM
Better is doing that with Shadow.. Conjuration? So that if they fail their saves, they can walk right across it.

Best combined with a really low save DC.

If I'm misunderstanding you, see point #3.

1.Illusions are from the Illusion school, fyi, and are those not valid choices for any shadow spell(except for Miracle shenanigans).

2.Assuming there was a "shadow illusion" spell, this still wouldn't work. The shadow-spell mimics the original spell, and failed save simply means that the spell works exactly as if it were the spell mimiced.

3.Now, I suppose it actually would work if you're doing Greater Shadow Conjuration to mimic a wall of stone instead of a image-line spell. This one is actually amusing.

TelemontTanthul
2010-12-23, 11:56 AM
There's a problem with that scenario: a wolf (living creature) isn't an item (object) and so isn't a valid target for Prestidigitation to affect.

Touche', Mr. Curmudgeon. Touche'.

bokodasu
2010-12-23, 12:05 PM
Line of Effect actually. But either way, that's not actually possible with Mage Hand (just like saying that you can cause nuclear explosions with it).

You can totally cause nuclear explosions with it; you just need to be in the room with the right buttons for it to press.

Back to the topic, my bard is generally focused on letting other people deal damage; I know everyone says how great glitterdust is but I didn't believe them until I tried it myself. Silence + Invisibility on a barbarian is fun, and if you're ever near a cliff, you might get lucky doing a Superman with feather fall + Bluff. (No, really, the updrafts here are strong enough that you can jump off and not get hurt! Check it out!)

Tyndmyr
2010-12-23, 03:08 PM
I frequently use Mage Hand to cause aneurysms and such in the blood vessels of the brain.

Thats pretty lenient. However, there are many ways to use Mage Hand lethally. Dropping objects is the obvious method. Caltrops, flasks of bad things, whatever. Next, there's triggering traps. Oh, the things you can do with five pounds of force in the wrong place. More subtly, you can do hilarious social things with it. The guy who put his hands in his pockets while talking to the guards? Pull his pants down. This may or may not be lethal, but it is almost certainly bad news for him.

Any illusion that can make a floor appear to be where a pit is can be lethal. Or merely extend the apparent edge of a cliff a bit. The fun part is, you don't generally get a save until you interact with the illusion. By which part, it's already a bit late.

Illusions also work really well in conjunction with people. Good items include anything stolen and missing, large bags of gold, weapons, skulls, demonic symbols, or a sign decrying the current ruler of the city.

Wall of Iron is also excellent. It has rules about casting, sure...but with proper preparation, you can ensure that you have a just-barely legal place to cast it, where it can still be shoved over on someone with minimal effort.

SonOfKronos
2010-12-23, 03:42 PM
Grappling someone off of a cliff and then featherfalling.

Using create water to sink a boat.

Using Tenser's Floating Disc, demonstrate to a foe that there is an invisible platform overtop a deadly pit, then step off of it. When they step onto the disc, perhaps to chase you, move out of range so as to deactivate the disc.

Ilmryn
2010-12-23, 03:48 PM
Question:

Would "Create Water" be considered capable of dealing damage to creatures if you cast it above their heads?

...or would the monsters just be slightly miffed at being wet?

It creates a sizable amount of it. :smallbiggrin:

It probably would do decent damage if you cast it on a fire elemental...

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 03:50 PM
Wasn't there some method by which one could create an illusory wall as a floor section that would be harmless as long as it was unrecognized as such?

Skorj
2010-12-23, 04:31 PM
Illusions also work really well in conjunction with people. Good items include anything stolen and missing, large bags of gold, weapons, skulls, demonic symbols, or a sign decrying the current ruler of the city.


The great thing about illusions is they're as powerful as the creature you can fool into acting. Ventriloquism in particular can be great fun when sneaking up to a group of chaotic evil opponents (at least, if you share their language), as it often doesn't take much prompting to break down discipline or even start an outright brawl.

Ravens_cry
2010-12-23, 04:42 PM
The great thing about illusions is they're as powerful as the creature you can fool into acting. Ventriloquism in particular can be great fun when sneaking up to a group of chaotic evil opponents (at least, if you share their language), as it often doesn't take much prompting to break down discipline or even start an outright brawl.
So like Gandalf in The Hobbit? Nice.

Moginheden
2010-12-23, 05:05 PM
Dancing lights + stupid animal, (buffalo in my party's case) = trampled other enemy.

TelemontTanthul
2010-12-23, 11:10 PM
Create Water + Fire Elemental?

I'll have to remember that for someday.