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Admiral Squish
2010-12-23, 02:59 AM
so, I was considering making a social character for a campaign and I was thinking about how magic would effect the wheeling and dealing of upper-class courts. All your ranks in bluff are no good if deals are made in the lord's study which happens to have a zone of truth spell on it. Would a character with glibness on him be seen as 'cheating'? Is a Mind Blank the only way to avoid dirty tricks? Charm person seems like it would make any negotiations boil down to an initiative contest to see who can activate their wand first. Detect thoughts, or even detect alignment spells seem like they would seriously affect proceedings. Who's going to lend money to your business venture if you ping as chaotic evil and your inner monologue consists of going over your evil plans in your head?

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-23, 03:30 AM
In a magic-heavy setting, all the wealthy merchants and politicians will probably have all sorts of magical defenses against divinations and enchantments. If you're a bard, Glibness can certainly get around a Zone of Truth. Nondetection can block Detect Evil/Good. Charm person can easily be suppressed by Protection from Evil cast by the cleric or shaman on your payroll. The wealthier and more magically savvy could fool Scrying and higher level divinations as well.

In social situations, I've often found that the mundane skills find the most use, and magic is used to pump up your skill checks. For bards, there's tons of skill-boosting spells, like Improvisation, Glibness, Greater Heroism, and Voice of the Dragon. It's hard to beat a really high Bluff check unless you have an equally high Sense Motive.

Escheton
2010-12-23, 07:45 AM
Beguilers are made to be skillfull enough to circumvent these precautions.
Indeed with bluff, skilltricks and metamagic feats one ensures that one is less likely to be caught "cheating".
Something given the average hypocracy in higher circles will happen either way, it usually just boils down who is most adept at the game of foiling/exposing ones competition while remaining in the shadows oneself.

Duke of URL
2010-12-23, 08:29 AM
Charm person can easily be suppressed by Protection from Evil cast by the cleric or shaman on your payroll.

I disagree - charm person is not mental control along the lines of what the protection from xxx spells guard against; contrary to some belief, those aren't just low-level versions of mind blank.

Ravens_cry
2010-12-23, 10:55 AM
Still, I think especially wealthy people in magic heavy setting would get Mind Blank cast on them during important negotiations and meetings by a trusted mage. Yes, it's expensive, but not as expensive as losing all your wealth and property to some two bit mage who decided to missuse their magic. In a magic heavy setting, I would make using magic for gain in this way a capital offence in many nations, same with using Fabricate to replicate the coin of the realm, that's forgery it is.

Ernir
2010-12-23, 11:11 AM
The easy solution towards making social magic not dominate every social situation is to have it regarded as a very hostile thing to do, even if everyone can do it or otherwise has access to it. As in, someone bringing Charm Person to a party is about as popular as someone bringing a loaded gun to a party.

The gun analogy makes negotiations a bit more sensible, too. Sure, you could always bring a gun to the table, and make sure everyone signs exactly what you want them to sign. And yet, not every real-life negotiation boils down to who can get their gun out the fastest.

That being said, political assassinations enchantments should exist, and people in dangerous waters would take precautions.

Ravens_cry
2010-12-23, 11:22 AM
Yet another use of Mark of Justice, making sure mages are trustworthy. Mages who wish to be accredited abjurers have Marks of Justice that activate with very obvious symptoms if they misuse their magic.

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-23, 11:26 AM
Indeed, there are a lot of things that Mind Blank can block besides Charms and Compulsions. But there are only so many spells with the Charm descriptor - just six in Core - and they all work in pretty similar ways: changing people's attitude towards you without turning them into mindless slaves. If Protection from Evil can't block Charm Person, then it can't block anything with the Charm descriptor, so there's no reason to have it in the spell description.

Frozen_Feet
2010-12-23, 11:33 AM
Much of it would depend on the general availability and power of magic.

Just because it's in the rules doesn't always mean its prevalent. Are there magicians capable of casting Glibness and Mind Blank in every town? Can each and every aristocrat get their hands on any wands or talismans?

If not, then it means player character with such abilities and resources are outliers, and consequently have greater social power. They would become famous indeed, reknowned for their ability to sweet-talk Kings and Queens alike.

If nobility has knowledge but not access to social magic, such magic will be strictly regulated, and likely criminal. Being caught using it will immediatly cause loss of face and potential banning from social circles. It'd be akin to using date-rape drugs - no-one would trust such a character.

However, if they have both knowledge and access, including that of counterspells, then social magic would be common element of political maneuvering, and indeed, something I'd imagine wwould be taught to budding aristocrats from childhood. You'd have to pick the level of magic usually available - then, by default, each and every social spell up to that level would not only be commonplace, but required. Someone not well-versed in enchantments would be a laughingstock of the higher-ranking nobles.

In any case, in a superstitious society (which most fantasy communities are), all sorts of rituals before important negotiations would be usual. Even communities without "real magic" would be likely to have ritual casting to "protect them from evil", and invidual participants would whisper prayers and pick up good luck talismans to ensure success. Just look at what people do in real world, really.

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 12:06 PM
contracts being formed and formal deals being made would be a lengthier process in general, I imagine, precisely because they might get lucky and get your guy one day, but if you have a magical staff they can't keep him without going into open hostilities and once you find out what they did...

Admiral Squish
2010-12-23, 02:53 PM
I like all of these ideas so far. Next time the PCs cast charm person on the king, they're gonna get a BIG surprise.

Does Mind Blank like, alert you if somebody tried to cast a spell on you? Do you know that somebody just tried to mess with your head if you pass your save?

Ravens_cry
2010-12-23, 03:00 PM
I like all of these ideas so far. Next time the PCs cast charm person on the king, they're gonna get a BIG surprise.

Indeed, such an act is basically treason, which is nearly always a capital offence or, at the very least, exile.


Does Mind Blank like, alert you if somebody tried to cast a spell on you? Do you know that somebody just tried to mess with your head if you pass your save?
RAW I don't know, but I would say it would to a degree. It wouldn't tell you WHAT happened, but you might feel a tingle as the magical over washes over you. Ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge: Arcana could potentially tell you what just almost hit with.
In a magic rich world, anyone in power who doesn't know how to know and take precautions is criminally foolish.

Coidzor
2010-12-23, 03:15 PM
For example, Expert observers on hand who are basically maxed out on spot, listen, spellcraft, sense motive, and autohypnosis at the low end.

I believe there's a wall of dispelling that would remove spells and allow each side to watch the other set up its defenses, though, of course, there's also the anti-magic field option. Without magic it's harder to be sure you're beating an array of listeners with sense motive maxed with your bluffs, after all.

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-23, 08:53 PM
I don't think Mind Blank would allow you to sense when a spell is cast on you. However, a wizard who is powerful enough to cast Mind Blank probably has permanent Arcane Sight or some other means of sensing a magical presence.

Of course, there are ways to hide your magic, like Nystal's magical aura, and ways to cast spell discretely, such as Still and Silent Spell. You can also find other clever ways of concealing your spells, such as crafting your own items. Someone might have a glove that casts Charm or Suggestion whenever they shake hands with someone.

Aquillion
2010-12-24, 01:14 AM
All your ranks in bluff are no good if deals are made in the lord's study which happens to have a zone of truth spell on it.Bluff can be used for more than just lying -- it's used to oppose all sense motive checks.

For instance, if I say "hey, I want you to do X", when the reason why I'm asking you to do it is actually to get you killed or to embarrass you, a Zone of Truth won't help you -- I'm not lying, I'm just trying to manipulate you. You'd have to roll Sense Motive against my Bluff to figure out that something's up.

Gamer Girl
2010-12-24, 01:35 AM
so, I was considering making a social character for a campaign and I was thinking about how magic would effect the wheeling and dealing of upper-class courts.

Tricks I use:

1)You never meet the important people for deals. You meet a servant or agent or such. They don't even need much protection as they can't give you anything you want. Some people would go through three or four levels of agents. This can also work if the agent is in disguise as the person, either mundane or magical. Summoned creatures also work well for this.

2)You never get to see the important person. They stay in the dark, behind a wall, behind an illusion, or whatever is needed. You can't use most magical effect with no line of sight.

3)Bodyguards. Any important person will have a 'mind bodyguard' that watches out for them. Someone who says close by and watches for magical effect and such. Constructs are good for this, as are undead. And things like familiars.

4)Plenty of places operate safe zones. Like high class places to eat and drink. They might be anti-magical, or covered in lead or such.

5)Magic is a lot like a modern gun, you can't take it everywhere. For example, if you have a meeting with the President of the USA, you will simply NOT be allowed to bring a gun with you. The same would be true of magic, and there are ways to stop spellcasting.