View Full Version : Black Swan (Spoilers)
Gaelbert
2010-12-23, 05:37 AM
I watched Black Swan tonight after finally finding a cinema that would show it. It was worth the wait. To anyone who hasn't seen the movie yet, I'll leave these first few comments spoiler free.
I'm a huge fan of Natalie Portman and Tchaikovsky, so I wasn't terribly surprised I enjoyed the movie. What did surprise me, however, was Black Swan was simultaneously the scariest and best movie I have ever seen. I don't scare easily. I didn't bat an eye at Paranormal Activity, the Saw moves, Ring, or any other of the countless horror movies I've seen. Black Swan was just... different. I won't give away too much, but it's certainly not a traditional horror movie if it could be considered horror at all. Much more subtle than the blood and gore that studios slop onto a set and think they can make money off it.
To make a long story short, you'd be doing yourself a favour by going out and watching it.
Now, spoilers beware.
I'm mainly curious what other viewers thought of the experience. Did you enjoy it, think it too pretentious, not understand it, or what?
When was Lilly real, and when was she just part of Nina's imagination?
For that matter, how reliable a narrator was Nina? What parts of the movie do you think were real and what parts were imagined?
What was up with Nina's mother? Did she go crazy or was she just a normal mom whose stage mom tendencies were exaggerated in the crazed mind of her daughter?
Did Nina actually spend the night with anyone after hanging out with Lilly and taking the drugs, or was the experience wholly fabricated?
Beth. When was she real, and what did she represent?
What happened to Nina at the very end? Do you think she died, or was just very, very injured?
What genre do you think it was?
And finally, what metaphors did you see and think particularly apt? Any? Or did you just not like the movie, not find it deep, found it too deep, found it too long, found it too short, too dull, or just wish there was more action?
Any other comments?
I'd answer these questions myself, but I'm quite sleep deprived. It lead to a more interesting viewing experience, but doesn't help so much with coherent analyses and thoughts. I'll get on it when I'm more rested.
Along the same lines, I'm shocked this didn't have a thread already. I searched multiple times and could not find one. If this failure was on my end, please, let me know.
Moff Chumley
2010-12-23, 03:38 PM
Also a breathtakingly beautiful song by Thom Yorke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg8Vq6w0JSE).
Pie Guy
2010-12-23, 04:56 PM
I'm not sure it mattered if she survived, because she's still kookoo bananas.
I've heard astoundingly wonderful things about Black Swan and cannot wait to see it. And, from a horror guru I know (he writes for a popular horror website and produces horror films), it is solidly horror.
The thing is, it's just a different type of horror. Horror doesn't have to be gory and jump at you. It can be very subtle and psychological. By throwing you off kilter, it opens up a part of your mind to question reality. For instance, Shutter Island is not gory in the least. I'd still class it as horror (horror/drama crossbreed, close to the thriller category) because of the subject matter.
Psyren
2011-01-01, 11:29 AM
My cousin and I just saw it, and we were thoroughly blown away. Black Swan is crazy good, and genuinely scary.
I'm not sure it mattered if she survived, because she's still kookoo bananas.
I'm not so sure. The white swan flinging herself off the cliff symbolizes death, sure, but it also symbolizes freedom. I think she may have let go of all the baggage that caused her visions.
Of course, that doesn't mean she wouldn't go crazy again...
CynicalAvocado
2011-01-03, 09:00 AM
I've heard astoundingly wonderful things about Black Swan and cannot wait to see it. And, from a horror guru I know (he writes for a popular horror website and produces horror films), it is solidly horror.
The thing is, it's just a different type of horror. Horror doesn't have to be gory and jump at you. It can be very subtle and psychological. By throwing you off kilter, it opens up a part of your mind to question reality. For instance, Shutter Island is not gory in the least. I'd still class it as horror (horror/drama crossbreed, close to the thriller category) because of the subject matter.
psychological horror is the best of the genre imho, especially when it doesn't hit you until you're out of the theater
Don Julio Anejo
2011-01-03, 11:40 AM
I love Black Swan too. Especially the part about designing your model/game plan in such a way as to exploit their occurrence.
Oh, wait... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Swan_%28Taleb_book%29)
You're talking about the other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_%28film%29) Black Swan.
Dr.Epic
2011-01-03, 02:05 PM
Now, spoilers beware.
These might go better in spoilers. You know...
these
Also, haven't seen the film. I'm not too big a Natalie Portman fan. But I do love the Nostalgia Critic's alternate ending:
She's turning into a chicken!
I'm almost tempted to watch it. I always grinned when I read about a ballet horror movie, and it kind of looked like a typical sports drama.
But so many people say it's really good and scary, and most of them also don't watch ballet movies.
Adamaro
2011-01-03, 02:22 PM
Meh I've seen it and I do not find it very scary ... only a bit disturbing. And BTW it is ARONOFSKY not TSCHAIKOVSKI.
Anyway, not much of a leap for ARONOFSKY! from Pi. He's good at making a movie of a main character going nuts, but I expected a bit more of evolution.
Loved the dance teacher thou. And her mother was also pretty good.
Psyren
2011-01-03, 02:40 PM
When I saw Mila Kunis in this, my first thought was - why the hell is she still wasting her time in Family Guy as the plain and disliked daughter?
CynicalAvocado
2011-01-03, 02:48 PM
When I saw Mila Kunis in this, my first thought was - why the hell is she still wasting her time in Family Guy as the plain and disliked daughter?
she isn't. ever notice how meg has pretty much turned into a background character?
Psyren
2011-01-03, 02:53 PM
she isn't. ever notice how meg has pretty much turned into a background character?
No, as that would require watching Family Guy. :smalltongue:
Dr.Epic
2011-01-03, 03:18 PM
She has always been.
No. Back in the first few season when Seth McFarlane still knew how to write story/character, she had a decent role on the show.
TheBST
2011-01-03, 05:37 PM
It's nothing special, and steals most of its tricks from Perfect Blue- maybe because Aronofsky already paid for the rights to that film so he could copy a scene for Requiem for a Dream and wanted to get his money's worth.
Also, the were-swan scenes? Hilarious.
I had a really different take on Black Swan than most of the people here.
First, I thought it was incredibly well put together. Good acting, good directing, great visuals, script, etc. All throughout a well put together movie that should have been brilliant.
But there was one giant, gaping flaw throughout the entire movie. The whole central premise was on Natalie Portman going crazy after being given the role. I just didnt' believe it. And I'm normally the kind of person who will believe anything the movie tells me to believe.
I've been around performing arts my entire life. In that time I've never met someone who wanted to be the lead act, the way Natalie Portman did, and then went crazy. Oh sure, there might be some stage fright, but I just couldn't by the notion that it would lead her to such a breakdown. And I couldn't enjoy the film with that overarching problem invading every scene.
Dragonus45
2011-01-04, 03:35 PM
I felt that the breakdown was less to do with wanting the lead and all that, so much as the specific duality needed for the role mingling with her axe crazy domineering possessive smothering crazy person of a mother's idea of raising a child.
Also am i the only one who felt a bit sad when she smashed the music box, it felt like the kind of thing one would regret later. Then again i am a bit of a sentimental hoarder so it might just be me.
Psyren
2011-01-04, 04:15 PM
I agree with Dragonus - the craziness stemmed not from getting what she wanted, but from her need for perfection causing her to literally fragment her mind in her attempt to achieve the duality needed.
In a sane and simpler world, Natalie would have danced the White while Mila danced the Black. The audience would have neither noticed nor cared - they're supposed to be two different swans anyway, and they'd be wearing makeup besides. Instead, her dedication to artistic purity swiftly led to her destruction.
I agree with Dragonus - the craziness stemmed not from getting what she wanted, but from her need for perfection causing her to literally fragment her mind in her attempt to achieve the duality needed.
In a sane and simpler world, Natalie would have danced the White while Mila danced the Black. The audience would have neither noticed nor cared - they're supposed to be two different swans anyway, and they'd be wearing makeup besides. Instead, her dedication to artistic purity swiftly led to her destruction.
I still don't believe it. I've never seen anything even remotely close to this happen; and yes, I know it's fiction, but I couldn't get over it. Even if her craziness is caused by the two different parts, an experienced artist would be able to cope.
All they would have had to do to fix the problem for me would be to have her be a back-up dancer to start with, rather than the up-and-comer. Then, you have the reason for her anxiety that anyone could understand.
Psyren
2011-01-04, 07:44 PM
I still don't believe it. I've never seen anything even remotely close to this happen; and yes, I know it's fiction, but I couldn't get over it. Even if her craziness is caused by the two different parts, an experienced artist would be able to cope.
Experienced? Where on earth did you get that?
Nina is talented, certainly, but the whole movie is about her lack of experience. This is her first time (a) dancing lead and (b) dancing outside her comfort zone i.e. a role that is entirely unsuited to her strengths. White Swan comes so easily to her because of her home life; the shrinking violet, beautiful yet cold persona of WS mirrors her own emotional unavailability and repression to a tee. Were she truly experienced, she could then transition to the aggressive, sultry and unabashed Black Swan with ease.
And you've never seen artists destroy themselves for their craft? There's dozens of tragic examples in history, and even modern ones (like a certain actor from The Dark Knight.)
All they would have had to do to fix the problem for me would be to have her be a back-up dancer to start with, rather than the up-and-comer. Then, you have the reason for her anxiety that anyone could understand.
She WAS a backup dancer. Her mother even comments on it at the beginning of the film.
TheBoyce
2011-01-04, 10:01 PM
My take on the craziness is that it has three informing parts:
1. Her mother, her overbearing, perfection-demanding, sabotaging mother. She obviously pushed her daughter to live out her dream and at the same time is also jealous of her, and she (the mother) is still holding onto her dreams of being a famous dancer despite them being long gone.
2. Bulimia, there are several scenes where her bulimia is apparent, and it is even mentioned that she has lost a noticeable amount of weight in a short time. People with Bulimia are known to have delusions in regard to their weight, having additional delusions isn't a big stretch.
3. The above two contribute to what could well be the simple fact that great artists often have mental disorders. She probably has some sort of psychosis (likely her mother does as well given her paintings) and her constant striving for perfection is a part of it.
Dragonus45
2011-01-05, 02:05 AM
The reason i think that the swan role specifically is the worst thing to happen to her is that it could act as a channel for the almost 30 year old, most likely a virgin, to let some of her repressed feeling out.
Experienced? Where on earth did you get that?
Nina is talented, certainly, but the whole movie is about her lack of experience. This is her first time (a) dancing lead and (b) dancing outside her comfort zone i.e. a role that is entirely unsuited to her strengths. White Swan comes so easily to her because of her home life; the shrinking violet, beautiful yet cold persona of WS mirrors her own emotional unavailability and repression to a tee. Were she truly experienced, she could then transition to the aggressive, sultry and unabashed Black Swan with ease.
And you've never seen artists destroy themselves for their craft? There's dozens of tragic examples in history, and even modern ones (like a certain actor from The Dark Knight.)
I've certainly seen artists destroy themselves for their crafts, but it's usually self destruction that has little to do with the art itself. Jimi Hendrix would likely have died of some sort of drug overdose regardless of whether he was a talented musician.
She WAS a backup dancer. Her mother even comments on it at the beginning of the film.
Are you sure? I remember her mother talking about how this year is when she gets her first lead role, implying that she was on a slightly lower level ready to break through, not back-up dancer status. Was there something I missed?
ETA: I also want to clarify; I'm not saying the events in the movie couldn't happen (within reality), but that I didn't believe them while watching the movie, which ruined it for me. Not that looking back can't improve them, but I did not enjoy the movie because of it at the time.
Psyren
2011-01-05, 11:08 AM
Are you sure? I remember her mother talking about how this year is when she gets her first lead role, implying that she was on a slightly lower level ready to break through, not back-up dancer status. Was there something I missed?
I think our definitions are different. I define anything other than dancing lead as backup. In Swan Lake, for instance, there are basically three roles: "Swan Queen," "Prince" and "Other."
It doesn't matter how close she was to being lead before; the point is, this was her first lead role.
Moglorosh
2011-01-05, 11:30 AM
And BTW it is ARONOFSKY not TSCHAIKOVSKI.
Tchaikovsky wrote "Swan Lake", which is the show the characters are preforming in the movie. Don't be so rude when you correct people, especially if you completely missed the point.
I still don't believe it. I've never seen anything even remotely close to this happen; and yes, I know it's fiction, but I couldn't get over it. Even if her craziness is caused by the two different parts, an experienced artist would be able to cope.
Maybe she had an underlying condition that caused the crazy? There are real-life mental conditions that cause paranoia and hallucinations. Perhaps the stress of her first lead role merely exacerbated an existing problem rather than creating one?
It doesn't matter how close she was to being lead before; the point is, this was her first lead role.
That's were we differ. Just because you aren't in a lead role doesn't mean you're unimportant, or unused to the spotlight.
Maybe she had an underlying condition that caused the crazy? There are real-life mental conditions that cause paranoia and hallucinations. Perhaps the stress of her first lead role merely exacerbated an existing problem rather than creating one?
I'm sure that could be the case; the problem was that while watching the movie I didn't get that impression. All the explaining in the world now won't change the impression I had while first watching the movie, sadly.
Psyren
2011-01-05, 03:01 PM
That's were we differ. Just because you aren't in a lead role doesn't mean you're unimportant, or unused to the spotlight.
Your problem with the movie is that you consider it implausible that just landing such a role made her crack. Unfortunately, we actually don't know why she lost her marbles. In fact, there were signs that she wasn't all there even before the movie began (e.g. being mystified at her back scratch marks near the movie's opening.) Lily could even have been entirely a product of Nina's tortured mind.
In the end, why she went crazy really isn't important - just that she was.
Your problem with the movie is that you consider it implausible that just landing such a role made her crack. Unfortunately, we actually don't know why she lost her marbles. In fact, there were signs that she wasn't all there even before the movie began (e.g. being mystified at her back scratch marks near the movie's opening.) Lily could even have been entirely a product of Nina's tortured mind.
In the end, why she went crazy really isn't important - just that she was.
Oh, I agree that my complaint was relatively trivial. If you look, I praised just about every other aspect of the film. And you are right, in the end the why isn't as important as the how. It just ruined it for me.(shrug)
Vaynor
2011-01-05, 03:55 PM
I don't think the leading role made her go crazy, it was a combination of the factors mentioned above. Also, maybe she was just crazy? :smalltongue:
Anyways, I loved this movie. My brother thought she had died in the end and was saying that it was really farfetched that she wouldn't bleed for so long, until I pointed out that that was probably just her being crazy as well. The part where she pulls back the skin of her finger was awesome in a really intense and horrifying way.
Mauve Shirt
2011-01-06, 06:21 PM
The feel-good comedy of the year!
Saw this movie today, thought it was pretty interesting. A hard movie to get through, but the kind of horror film I like.
Gaelbert
2011-01-07, 08:15 PM
What was up with Nina's mother? Did she go crazy or was she just a normal mom whose stage mom tendencies were exaggerated in the crazed mind of her daughter?
Beth. When was she real, and what did she represent?
What happened to Nina at the very end? Do you think she died, or was just very, very injured?
I didn't think the mother was actually too crazy. I assumed it was mainly a somewhat overprotective mother amplified by the craziness of her daughter. And honestly, with a daughter that crazy, I would be pretty overprotective too.
I saw as a sort of manifestation of Nina herself. It's been a while since I saw the movie so I'm not sure of the specifics exactly.
I agree with a poster earlier who said the wound itself was imaginary. The lack of blood for so long bothered me, and since she's already pretty crazy, it wouldn't surprise me if it was imaginary.
What was up with the person who dropped her? That part still has me a little confused.
Also am i the only one who felt a bit sad when she smashed the music box, it felt like the kind of thing one would regret later. Then again i am a bit of a sentimental hoarder so it might just be me.
The music box made me feel pretty sad as well. I can't get rid of my stuffed animals, ones I never even used much in the first place, because I'm afraid I'll hurt their feelings.
Tchaikovsky wrote "Swan Lake", which is the show the characters are preforming in the movie. Don't be so rude when you correct people, especially if you completely missed the point.
Maybe she had an underlying condition that caused the crazy? There are real-life mental conditions that cause paranoia and hallucinations. Perhaps the stress of her first lead role merely exacerbated an existing problem rather than creating one?
I thought I was going crazy for a second there. I had double checked it was Tchaikovsky to not reveal my ignorance of the matters.
Dragonus45
2011-01-10, 11:58 AM
The music box made me feel pretty sad as well. I can't get rid of my stuffed animals, ones I never even used much in the first place, because I'm afraid I'll hurt their feelings.
My problem is that i find sentimental value in everything... everything
Psyren
2011-01-10, 12:35 PM
My problem is that i find sentimental value in everything... everything
Gosh, *crunch crunch* what's that like?
*crumples empty bag of chips, throws it away*
Serpentine
2011-01-11, 07:39 AM
But there was one giant, gaping flaw throughout the entire movie. The whole central premise was on Natalie Portman going crazy after being given the role. I just didnt' believe it. And I'm normally the kind of person who will believe anything the movie tells me to believe.
I've been around performing arts my entire life. In that time I've never met someone who wanted to be the lead act, the way Natalie Portman did, and then went crazy. Oh sure, there might be some stage fright, but I just couldn't by the notion that it would lead her to such a breakdown. And I couldn't enjoy the film with that overarching problem invading every scene.
I agree with Dragonus - the craziness stemmed not from getting what she wanted, but from her need for perfection causing her to literally fragment her mind in her attempt to achieve the duality needed.This, but there are also clear signs that she was already cracking. The initial "rash", a comment from her mother suggesting that she had self-harmed before, her mother's general attitude, and so on. She was already going crazy. The pressure to split herself into two for a high-pressure role just pushed her over the edge, that's all.
Beautiful movie.
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