Is Tarquin underestimating the OOTS?

[Melee]

I've been re-reading the more recent strips, and I had an idea that Tarquin is underestimating the Order. I've got some reasoning behind this, too:

1) Tarquin thinks that Elan is the leader of the Order. Having easily defeated him in a pun-duel, Tarquin may develop an idea of how powerful the Order is based on how powerful Elan is. Since Elan is probably the least powerful and definitely the least intelligent member of the Order, Tarquin may well think the rest of the Order is less powerful than Elan.

2) In strip #722, Tarquin doesn't think that Haley can defeat all of the guards, and in strip #749 he doesn't really seem to think that she would be up to doing something strenuous, such as freeing palace slaves, after drinking a lot the night before.

3) Tarquin may underestimate V because he knows that V doesn't know Teleport.

4) Tarquin only knows for sure that there are 3 members of the Order (Elan, Haley, V). He may have guessed that Durkon is in the Order, but he would have no reason for thinking that Roy and Belkar are members too, so he doesn't know their full party strength.

So, does it seen plausible? Will Tarquin get a nasty shock on finding out how strong the Order is? Or has he guessed already?

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

[Swordpriest]

I've been re-reading the more recent strips, and I had an idea that Tarquin is underestimating the Order. I've got some reasoning behind this, too:

1) Tarquin thinks that Elan is the leader of the Order. Having easily defeated him in a pun-duel, Tarquin may develop an idea of how powerful the Order is based on how powerful Elan is. Since Elan is probably the least powerful and definitely the least intelligent member of the Order, Tarquin may well think the rest of the Order is less powerful than Elan.

2) In strip #722, Tarquin doesn't think that Haley can defeat all of the guards, and in strip #749 he doesn't really seem to think that she would be up to doing something strenuous, such as freeing palace slaves, after drinking a lot the night before.

3) Tarquin may underestimate V because he knows that V doesn't know Teleport.

4) Tarquin only knows for sure that there are 3 members of the Order (Elan, Haley, V). He may have guessed that Durkon is in the Order, but he would have no reason for thinking that Roy and Belkar are members too, so he doesn't know their full party strength.

So, does it seen plausible? Will Tarquin get a nasty shock on finding out how strong the Order is? Or has he guessed already?

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas, and thank you! :smallsmile:

Well, I'd say it's quite possible that he's underestimated them. However, they are generally fairly weak and incompetent, so it's possible that he could underestimate them, yet their real strength would still make them pushovers to him. I mean, they lost to one paladin, they only beat Leaky Windstaff because Thor cheated :smallbiggrin:, and so on. Probably the original Xykon fight is the only straight-up battle they've ever won as a team. :smallwink:

[Niveus Candidus]

Merry Christmas, and thank you! :smallsmile:

Well, I'd say it's quite possible that he's underestimated them. However, they are generally fairly weak and incompetent, so it's possible that he could underestimate them, yet their real strength would still make them pushovers to him. I mean, they lost to one paladin, they only beat Leaky Windstaff because Thor cheated :smallbiggrin:, and so on. Probably the original Xykon fight is the only straight-up battle they've ever won as a team. :smallwink:

This ^^^

Also, I am not certain Tarquin's estimation of the party's strength matters, at all. He wants Elan to kill him, eventually. What's the worse that can happen, his estimates are off by a year or two?

[Chaos rising]

This ^^^

Also, I am not certain Tarquin's estimation of the party's strength matters, at all. He wants Elan to kill him, eventually. What's the worse that can happen, his estimates are off by a year or two?

No, if they are strong enough they can stop him NOW. If they can get his party to gather and defeat them, then Tarquinn and co. end up in prison and die in ambiguity

This is, I think, the only way for Tarquinn to "lose" at this point.

[Kish]

Tarquin may be, not "underestimating the Order," as such, but overestimating himself. He thinks he's a central, epic villain. He may turn out to be a subplot villain who can't hope to stand against the Order, or the tough-talking minor villain who gets casually waxed by the main villain to show how powerful and evil the main villain is.

[Aldrakan]

Tarquin may be, not "underestimating the Order," as such, but overestimating himself. He thinks he's a central, epic villain. He may turn out to be a subplot villain who can't hope to stand against the Order, or the tough-talking minor villain who gets casually waxed by the main villain to show how powerful and evil the main villain is.

Agreed on that score. I feel the most obvious sign of Tarquin overestimating his importance is that he still thinks Elan is the leader of the party. If he were then yes, probably Tarquin would be the story's Big Bad. But Elan is part of the comic relief. Since when do they get the main villain?
Not to mention how awkward it would be to write the comic's plot so that after defeating Xykon and saving the universe they go back to the continent where the previous gate was and deal with some mortal warlord.

Still, given that thus far he's only fought Elan, he may well be underestimating them too. He's likely higher level, but he can hardly call up the other two thirds of his party and have them help without messing up his empires strategy. And in addition to the possibility that he thinks V is lower level than is actually the case, he doesn't know Durkon is part of the group, and the same goes for Roy and Belkar. If it came to a fight he might end up rather outnumbered. (Assuming his army doesn't come into the equation for whatever reason)

[Thor Person Guy]

If Tarquin's intelligence is anything like Nale's, then he's probably going to try to bluff Elan into letting him live. Sadly for him, there are many details that he doesn't yet know:

1) As has been mentioned before, and in thorough detail, Elan is not the leader of the Order.

2) He has Haley's father sitting in the dungeon. He may be able to fool Elan, but Haley can out-bluff him with barely any effort. Since she's bound to be pissed at him, he's got his work cut out for him.

3) V and Durkon's power levels, while not over 9000, are sufficient to fending off several waves of palace guards. This can buy him and Elan plenty of time to have their chat / duel / whatever.

If given enough time he could slowly work his way around each of these. But since they'll most likely be revealed to him all at once, barring an intervention from one or more of his colleagues, he doesn't stand a chance.

[Killer Angel]

Tarquin may be, not "underestimating the Order," as such, but overestimating himself.

Probably both. He certainly overstimates himself, and he doesn't know the Order's full potential.
A nasty combination, indeed.

[NerfTW]

I don't think Tarquin is over estimating himself. He knows very well that whatever quest the Order is on involves something threatening the world. He knows that compared to that, a dictator playing puppet master on one half of a continent isn't anywhere near the star villain. This idea that he doesn't know he's a subplot is ignoring statements he himself made to Elan about the larger threat.


As for the Order, he's definitely under estimating them. He doesn't know about their two strongest melee warriors, thinks Haley is a weakling, and probably doesn't realize Durkon is their team mate.

[Kish]

This idea that he doesn't know he's a subplot is ignoring statements he himself made to Elan about the larger threat.
"Some cliched scenery-chewing villain bent on world conquest"?

Oh, certainly he thinks the villain of Elan's current adventure has a plan which is a threat to him. What he may not realize, is 1) how dangerous Xykon is even without his current plan, and 2) that Xykon, not he, is the main villain of the story he's in, instead of Xykon being a speed bump for Elan to go over on his way to the Elan vs. Tarquin clash which is the central point of that story.

[arpin]

This ^^^

Also, I am not certain Tarquin's estimation of the party's strength matters, at all. He wants Elan to kill him, eventually. What's the worse that can happen, his estimates are off by a year or two?

May I just point out that the enitre power of the OOTS is in the fact that when they really need spmething, a deus ex machina occurs? Logically, they'll kil Tarquin at an appropiate time, and how capable Tarquin believes they are is irrelevant.

[yldenfrei]

Agree on underestimating the OotS and overestimating himself.

On the subject of deus ex machina saving the OotS's derrière...

And Tarquin seems to love wearing red so...

Xykon makes a Red Shirt out of Tarquin, just because he's blocking the way? That could also be the most deliciously ignominious comeuppance he'll ever get. :smallbiggrin:

[Felixc-91]

yes, T clearly dose not know the full extent of the Order's power. this is because he doesn't know about Roy and Belkar, and may not know about Durkon. the real question in my mind is by how much? has he guessed that Durkon is part of the order? did he come to the conclusion that V is lower level then reality, or did he make the connection to the banned school? the thing is, at the character levels we're talking about, not knowing about 2 melee specialists doesn't mean much compared to not knowing the strength of the spell casters. is he massively underestimating their power, or only missing it by a small margin?

[Leecros]

And Tarquin seems to love wearing red so...


Wait....Tarquin wears red, is good at puns (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html), loves dueling on rooftops (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), Seems to be amused jolly about many things which he shouldn't be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html), he likes decorations.... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)


oh my.....

Tarquin is Santa Claus

or at least some kind of Lawful Evil version of Santa Claus


Edit: He even likes giving presents (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)

[BridgeCity]

. . . but he can hardly call up the other two thirds of his party and have them help without messing up his empires strategy. And in addition to the possibility that he thinks V is lower level than is actually the case, he doesn't know Durkon is part of the group, and the same goes for Roy and Belkar. If it came to a fight he might end up rather outnumbered. (Assuming his army doesn't come into the equation for whatever reason)

I'd disagree with this point. If the party are smart enough and clever enough to keep this whole gambit running as smoothly as they do, the respective members of Tarquin's party should have no trouble at all vanishing for a few hours to join Tarquin in a fight and then smoothing their abscence over with their puppet-lords.

Also, it would be a rather foolish party that didn't have a way to instantly or very nearly instantly be able to come to the aid of another member if they needed to. If it comes to a fight and Tarquin hasn't had the foresight to be able to summon all his friends then I feel he really isn't good enough to be doing what he is currently doing.

[Melee]

Another question to consider is what relevance Tarquin's self-overestimation and the Order's underestimation would have to the storyline. It makes me curious about the results of a possible fight between them, and if Tarquin and his team are as powerful as they seem to be, whether this would change the result in favour of the Order.

[Emperor Flumph]

Another question to consider is what relevance Tarquin's self-overestimation and the Order's underestimation would have to the storyline. It makes me curious about the results of a possible fight between them, and if Tarquin and his team are as powerful as they seem to be, whether this would change the result in favour of the Order.
I think the Order's main strength is that they're good at finding unconventional solutions to their problems that their adversaries often don't expect. Tarquin, with his love of classic fantasy epics, assumes that a climactic final battle is the only way he can be defeated. What he doesn't realize is that a) he's in a comic that regularly subverts the tropes associated with classic fantasy epics and b) he's dealing with HALEY FRICKIN STARSHINE the queen of thinking on her feet. I'm not sure how, but her plan to break out Ian is somehow gonna result in Tarquin's downfall without anyone having to face him in a final showdown.

[Alagaesian]

Plus, a Tarquin-Elan family reunion is one gigantic invitation for Nale to show up. Assuming Tarquin has a way of getting all his party members there for a fight, that deus ex machina rule might come through as the Linear Guild rushing in to kill Tarquin.

It makes sense in story context, too. This celebration for Elan is being advertised throughout the whole EoB (which is huge, compared to other countries (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)) so if Nale's on the Western Continent, there would be a pretty good chance of him hearing about his brother's presence. Not finding any news of the gate and thinking his brother might have, he comes over to find the Order and Tarquin's party duking it out. He helps Elan at first, deciding that he would rather defeat Tarquin himself than let Elan try, then tries to kill the Order while they're in a weakened state.

So, yes, Tarquin is underestimating the opposition that he may have to face. Right now, he only knows for sure about V, Elan, and Haley. He doesn't know that he might be fighting three times that many people.

[Mando Knight]

If Tarquin is underestimating the Order, then it could also be on purpose. After all, that's a villain's job. If he doesn't utter a line similar to "Retreat? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances." or "Your faith in your friends is yours!" (weakness) somewhere along the line, I'll be disappointed.

[Red XIV]

Plus, a Tarquin-Elan family reunion is one gigantic invitation for Nale to show up. Assuming Tarquin has a way of getting all his party members there for a fight, that deus ex machina rule might come through as the Linear Guild rushing in to kill Tarquin.

It makes sense in story context, too. This celebration for Elan is being advertised throughout the whole EoB (which is huge, compared to other countries (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)) so if Nale's on the Western Continent, there would be a pretty good chance of him hearing about his brother's presence. Not finding any news of the gate and thinking his brother might have, he comes over to find the Order and Tarquin's party duking it out. He helps Elan at first, deciding that he would rather defeat Tarquin himself than let Elan try, then tries to kill the Order while they're in a weakened state.

So, yes, Tarquin is underestimating the opposition that he may have to face. Right now, he only knows for sure about V, Elan, and Haley. He doesn't know that he might be fighting three times that many people.
And the last we saw about the Linear Guild was the IFCC saying they would send them into action again to screw things up for somebody.