Maybe the Order of the Scribble Weren't "Paragons"

[Emo Samurai]

There is deliberate irony introduced into each of them.

Soon undertakes the quest out of revenge and personal grievance, and he creates a political order in which his vaunted paladin code is counterbalanced by the feudal self-interest of the most powerful people in his society. This contradiction, IMO, is what really brings Miko to kill off Shojo and what allows Xykon's army to take the city.

Girard is a rebel without a cause who uses the same technology to detect his enemies {scrubbed}. It fails in both cases.

Lirian is a druid who meddles with nature to an extent that is completely unequalled either in OOTS or in the rest of fantasy literature. Seriously, what druid creates a magic-eating virus? We don't engineer viruses in OUR universe.

Dorukon is a wizard who deliberately introduces flaws into his own creations. He puts a self-destruct rune on his gate, and he creates a deliberate flaw in his Cloister spell.

Serini is a rogue who refuses to forge an individual identity and doesn't take what she wants. She dresses plainly, doesn't get a gate to herself, and stores her diary in another party member's stronghold. Also, we have no indication that she ever pursued Girard.

We don't know anything about Kraagor, other than the fact that his death tore apart the Order.

[TriForce]

There is deliberate irony introduced into each of them.

Soon undertakes the quest out of revenge and personal grievance, and he creates a political order in which his vaunted paladin code is counterbalanced by the feudal self-interest of the most powerful people in his society. This contradiction, IMO, is what really brings Miko to kill off Shojo and what allows Xykon's army to take the city.

Girard is a rebel without a cause who uses the same technology to detect his enemies {scrubbed}. It fails in both cases.

Lirian is a druid who meddles with nature to an extent that is completely unequalled either in OOTS or in the rest of fantasy literature. Seriously, what druid creates a magic-eating virus? We don't engineer viruses in OUR universe.

Dorukon is a wizard who deliberately introduces flaws into his own creations. He puts a self-destruct rune on his gate, and he creates a deliberate flaw in his Cloister spell.

Serini is a rogue who refuses to forge an individual identity and doesn't take what she wants. She dresses plainly, doesn't get a gate to herself, and stores her diary in another party member's stronghold. Also, we have no indication that she ever pursued Girard.

We don't know anything about Kraagor, other than the fact that his death tore apart the Order.

you seem to be on a crusade against the order of the scribble, also, you dont seem to read this comic.

1: soon didnt create any feudal system, he created the paladin order, most likely, the feudal system was already in place or originated afterwards

2: asides from a very questionable illusion/trap, we know almost nothing of girards motivation and methods, so whaever your assuming is premature

3: whatever you call meddling is by some considered using whatever is already available, not i havent read SoD, but from what i read on the forum, lirian is a protector of nature, not a perverter

4: the self destruct rune was no flaw, it was a backup.

5: we have seen nothing of serini.... everything you put down there is speculation at best and outright lies at worse.

[Leecros]

We don't engineer viruses in OUR universe.


That is completely not true. (http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/06/22/2661.aspx)

[Kish]

Soon undertakes the quest out of revenge and personal grievance, and he creates a political order in which his vaunted paladin code is counterbalanced by the feudal self-interest of the most powerful people in his society.

Soon did not found Azure City.


Lirian is a druid who meddles with nature to an extent that is completely unequalled either in OOTS or in the rest of fantasy literature. Seriously, what druid creates a magic-eating virus?

...one who wants to defeat an evil sorcerer and cleric?

...you're seriously saying that creating a virus which negates spellcasting abilities is unequaled in fantasy literature?


Dorukon is a wizard who deliberately introduces flaws into his own creations. He puts a self-destruct rune on his gate, and he creates a deliberate flaw in his Cloister spell.

A self-destruct mechanism is not a flaw.


Serini is a rogue who refuses to forge an individual identity and doesn't take what she wants. She dresses plainly, doesn't get a gate to herself, and stores her diary in another party member's stronghold. Also, we have no indication that she ever pursued Girard.

...and?

Setting aside, for the moment, the fact that Serini named her gate Kraagor's Gate and made it a tomb for Kraagor rather than guarding it herself because she, very like a stereotypical rogue, didn't want to settle down, you appear to be confusing stereotypes with rules (and, yes, as TriForce already noted, also stretching for a lot of these).

[ref]

is it really that hard to spell "Dorukan", btw?

[Emperor Flumph]

Everything you say here either isn't true, is wild speculation, or has perfectly logical reasons behind it.

We should start callin' you Mister Fantastic, 'cos honey you are stretching.
*snaps snap*

[Swordpriest]

Um .... ooooooookay. :smallconfused:

[Emo Samurai]

1: soon didnt create any feudal system, he created the paladin order, most likely, the feudal system was already in place or originated afterwards

He was pretty frakking powerful, given that he was the ruler of Azure after the quest.


2: asides from a very questionable illusion/trap, we know almost nothing of girards motivation and methods, so whaever your assuming is premature

Maybe it's questionable, maybe it's not. But we know he used illusions, and it's not too strange to think he also used the same heuristic technology as the illusion.


3: whatever you call meddling is by some considered using whatever is already available, not i havent read SoD, but from what i read on the forum, lirian is a protector of nature, not a perverter

No reason she can't be both.


4: the self destruct rune was no flaw, it was a backup.

"Flaw" was kind of imprecise, "backdoor" would be a better term. Except backdoors are deliberate flaws.


5: we have seen nothing of serini.... everything you put down there is speculation at best and outright lies at worse.

She didn't get a gate to herself, modeling its defense after someone else.

I was wrong about the stronghold thing.

But she obviously dressed plainly and was focused more on making peace than getting what she wanted, which is the opposite of what a rogue's supposed to be about.

And when Team Evil found her diary, they said that she didn't matter, but her friends did.

[littlekKID]

He was pretty frakking powerful, given that he was the ruler of Azure after the quest.
.

he wasn't the ruler, the Extras in the end of War an XP says that the castle was build by "Soon Kim and the Lord of the City", he just ruled the Sapphire guard

[The Glyphstone]

But she obviously dressed plainly and was focused more on making peace than getting what she wanted, which is the opposite of what a rogue's supposed to be about.

And when Team Evil found her diary, they said that she didn't matter, but her friends did.

Why are rogues required to be selfish? 'Rogue' as a class is incredibly broad...even its roots in 'Thief' isn't necessarily selfish. Dressing plainly is very rogueish, since most rogues wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves (hard to sneak/steal if you're obvious), and caring more about your own needs/wants than others is an Evil or Neutral trait, not a class feature of Rogues, and definitely not a Good trait, which she was.

[Vemynal]

That is completely not true. (http://www.news-medical.net/news/2004/06/22/2661.aspx)

thank you for beating me to this Leecros

I read that and went "HUH!?"

[JoseB]

[Soon]was pretty frakking powerful, given that he was the ruler of Azure after the quest.

Nope. Soon was the leader of the Sapphire Guard, which was a secret order of paladins, in limited numbers. He passed leadership of the Sapphire Guard to the lord of the city later on ( Comic #277, panel 11
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) Lord Shojo speaking: "When I was but a boy, learning at my father's knee, an aged Soon came to him and transferred command of the Sapphire Guard. Soon said that it was crucial that the defense of the city and the defense of the gate be held in the same capable hands" )

(N.B.: The last sentence implies that, before this moment, the defense of the city -that is, the leadership of Azure City- and the defense of the gate -that is, the leadership of the Sapphire Guard- were NOT concentrated in the same person. Which means that, most definitely, Soon Kim was NOT the ruler of Azure City after the quest).

Also, Comic #289, panels 3-6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) indicate that the nobility of Azure City is a very powerful player when it comes to the government of the city, and that only the cunning and sneakiness of Lord Shojo has prevented them from killing him and usurping the Azure City throne (most likely triggering a civil war in the process, but I digress).


Maybe it's questionable, maybe it's not. But we know he used illusions, and it's not too strange to think he also used the same heuristic technology as the illusion.

The point is that every "gate-keeper" was supposed to, by whatever means, keep an eye on their own gates. All of them except (perhaps) for Girard (and also perhaps for Serini, but we know nothing about Serini's way of dealing with the 5th gate, except that she dedicated it to Kraagor and protected it with tremendous monsters of awesome power) stayed physically around their own gate to keep an eye on it. Girard, however, added a deception in the form of fake coordinates that would take whoever followed them to a trap. The Order of the Scribble agreed to monitor each other's gates (Comic #277). It would be only logical to monitor your own trap to see if it has been sprung and then check to see what has happened there. Girard may well stay next to his own gate, keeping an eye on it like the others.

What I mean with this long text is that we have no evidence whatsoever to assume that Girard has been using extensive and intrusive surveillance methods to "detect his enemies". Have a contingency spell that "pings" at your home whenever the trap that you set is triggered, and then scry on the area to see what has happened. That corresponds to what we see in the comic, and does not imply that Girard spends the whole time scrying or spying on "potential enemies".

Girard appears to be paranoid, but he also appears to trust his mastery of illusions to hide himself from whoever might go after him, be they enemies or oppressive government-like forces.


No reason she can't be both.

What we have here is a Druid, who has expressed reverence for nature. Yes, she created the virus, but its creation conformed to druidic rules of conduct. She uses it as an important line of defense against magic-using intruders, and it appears rather obvious, reading SoD, that she sees it as an integral part of the whole ecosystem (a very Druid thing to do):


You've done very well battling our largest sentinels, sorcerer. It will take us months to recruit new ones willing to serve. But the natural world is much more than dire wolves or treants. There are living beings everywhere you go. In the soil, in the water... in the air all around us, even. <...> I call it the Guardian Virus."


"Flaw" was kind of imprecise, "backdoor" would be a better term. Except backdoors are deliberate flaws.

The self-destruct rune was the option of absolute last resort; it was installed to prevent a gate (in other words, an anchored and stabilized rift in reality) from falling in evil hands which might use it for evil ends. If all hell breaks loose, if an evil attacker is winning the upper hand and it becomes apparent that there is no way to resist them, the self-destruct rune allows for a last-ditch method to prevent the gate from being lost to an evildoer. Obviously, this requires that someone is left alive to activate it --that is the only problem there. Dorukan was killed fighting Xykon, and had it not been for Elan's actions, the gate would have not been blown up.

Dorukan might have tried to set up some kind of password system or "safety catch" to prevent "accidental activation" of the self-destruct rune. However, in the circumstances in which the rune should most likely have been activated, there would have been no time to fiddle with password or contingencies. And you wouldn't dare limiting the ability to activate the rune to just Dorukan, or to just a limited number of people, because, what if they get all killed? What then? Reasonably, you are going to blow up the gate when the enemy is literally charging at you and you have bare seconds to spare, with all hope lost (blowing up a gate and re-opening a rift in reality is no trifling matter!). That is not a situation in which you have to think about passwords or what-have-you.

Remember that the Sapphire Guard had also that option as the absolute last resort: O-chul tried to run and smash the sapphire in the throne that was, in itself, the Azure City gate. When everything appeared lost, it was better to smash the gate, thus reopening the rift, than allowing it to fall in Xykon's hands.

The gates and the rifts are different things. The rifts were the original "rips in reality" through which the Snarl entered into the world --it was through one of them that the Snarl extended an appendage, thus killing Mijung, Soon's wife (or, rather than killing, unmaking her, annihilating her soul). The Order of the Scribble created the gates, which contained the spread of the rifts, stabilized them, anchored them, and prevented the Snarl from entering our world again.

However, it seems that the creation of a gate around a rift allows for someone who might be so inclined to gain control of the gate and the rift it contains. Too dangerous a thing to have in the hands of evil lords.


She didn't get a gate to herself, modeling its defense after someone else.

I repeat what I said above about Serini: We know nothing about her that might allow us to make any kind of deduction about her way of dealing with the gate, beyond the fact that she dedicated it to Kraagor and stuffed it (and, presumably, the area around it) with the fiercest and most terrible monsters imaginable.

Oh, and a rogue is supposed to be someone who is really, REALLY good at surviving; someone who is cunning and (at the very least street-)smart. Making peace among her own adventuring companions is directly in her own interest. The last thing she would want is to get swept into a bitter battle that can only end badly, no matter who would have won. Add to that that (from what little we can see of her in the comic) she seems to be of a rather sunny, cheerful and good-ish personality. Stopping her companions from fighting agrees with her personality as she has been written so far.

Regarding the "simple clothing"... Come on... If we want to go all "stereotypical Haley-style rogue" here, <tongue-in-cheek>the simpler and cheaper the clothes she has, the more gold she can keep for herself!</tongue-in-cheek> :smallwink:

[Kish]

But she obviously dressed plainly and was focused more on making peace than getting what she wanted, which is the opposite of what a rogue's supposed to be about.
You would have rogues be more personality-restricted than paladins.

[MReav]

But she obviously dressed plainly and was focused more on making peace than getting what she wanted, which is the opposite of what a rogue's supposed to be about.

Dressing plainly is what the ancient ninjas did. Hiding in plain sight y'know?

And making peace? How do you what she wanted wasn't "protect the Gates, and keep my friends from killing each other". If that's the case then she definitely got what she wanted.

[iowaforever]

But she obviously dressed plainly and was focused more on making peace than getting what she wanted, which is the opposite of what a rogue's supposed to be about.

the problem with this is that Haley (who is also a rogue) has spent most of the comic in not-so expressive leather armor (she even comments when she gets the new top that several people called her a guy) so saying that Serini not dressing up made her go against was rogues are supposed to be doesn't really fit

[Imperii]

Snip
A self-destruct mechanism is not a flaw.
Snip


Might I request that you also discuss his second reason, regarding his assessment of Dorukan, as well as his first? I think it intriguing that no response thus far has addressed the flaw in his Cloister spell. But what would I know of such things, Kish?

[Manga Shoggoth]

Might I request that you also discuss his second reason, regarding his assessment of Dorukan, as well as his first? I think it intriguing that no response thus far has addressed the flaw in his Cloister spell. But what would I know of such things, Kish?

Well, if I may...


Dorukon is a wizard who deliberately introduces flaws into his own creations. He puts a self-destruct rune on his gate, and he creates a deliberate flaw in his Cloister spell.

There is no evidence that Dorukan deliberately introduces flaws into his creations. As has already been noted, the self destruct is not a flaw.

The "hole" in the cloister spell is the same as opening a port in a firewall. You are allowing a known protcol access (or in this case, allowing a spell of a known type) through the barrier for a known reason.

Now, if he had not intended to allow that spell type through then it would have been a flaw. However Dorukan clearly intended the spell to go through by design.

[Kish]

Might I request that you also discuss his second reason, regarding his assessment of Dorukan, as well as his first? I think it intriguing that no response thus far has addressed the flaw in his Cloister spell. But what would I know of such things, Kish?
Yes, Dorukan built a flaw into his Cloister spell so he could continue his romance with Lirian covertly. This could be used to make a case for a number of things. Dorukan having a pattern of sabotaging his own spells is not one of them, since once is not a pattern. The entire Order of the Scribble being somehow internally contradictory is also not one of them. The one case I would choose to make based on it is...

Dorukan is not a robot.

[JoseB]

Might I request that you also discuss his second reason, regarding his assessment of Dorukan, as well as his first? I think it intriguing that no response thus far has addressed the flaw in his Cloister spell. But what would I know of such things, Kish?

Oh, I will try and do it. The flaw in the Cloister spell is that, although (according to comic 532, panels 4 onwards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)) it "blocked all divination, communication and transportation magic" for a big area and all the creatures within, affecting the creatures even if they left the area, it left an explicit exception for summonings.

Obviously, the main reason was to be able to get together with Lirian "on the sly".

The Order of the Scribble had agreed to separate, for each member to guard their own gate as they saw fit, and to not interfere with each other's gates (as Serini says in comic 277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), "no spying, no 'just checking in' visits, no nothing"). However, it seems clear that both Dorukan (and, perhaps Lirian as well) regretted having given that particular oath. From "Start of Darkness", page 67, panel 3 -- Lirian is reading a letter from Dorukan, which can be mostly read and understood to say the following (bolding mine):


...If only these accursed Gates and our rashly-promised oath to guard them did not keep us apart! When [could?] you next visit without arising suspicion?...

It appears rather plausible that Dorukan developed "Cloister" as a magical protection against "scry-and-die" tactics (except if the foe had epic-level magic, but well... Basically nothing can really withstand epic magic, I think). The only hole is summoning, and it is debatable whether it is such a humongous hole in the spell. Why? Because of this:

The only way a foe might circumvent cloister is by getting to the cloistered place the hard way, having looked for it the hard way (that is, without direct scrying or similar). Once there, the foe in question would have to realize that there is a spell going on, and spend time researching it in order to understand it and find its inherent "flaw". If the foe in question is able to do all that, it means that he has already defeated/killed/annihilated you and your forces.

If the "hole" involves summoning, the summoning is under direct control of the person in the cloister. Nobody from outside can do it. For you to be able to summon something, you have to first get inside the cloister.

Of course, you could say that *anybody* under the cloistered area can do so, and that is a big problem, especially if someone in your team betrays you. Indeed it is. It makes the selection of your personnel a critical aspect of your security. However, it seems that Dorukan chose his helpers well. Whether this kind of "hole" would spell doom for other casters who might try to use "cloister", though... That's another question.

---

So, to sum up: The "hole" in the cloister spell was deliberately inserted by Dorukan, basically to be able to circumvent an oath that he regretted giving. It was given without proper thought, and (possibly worst of it all, in his mind) prevented him from seeing the woman he loved.

Is that irresponsible? Maybe. However, I submit that there are extenuating circumstances: Dorukan appeared to develop, with time, serious misgivings about the wisdom of having agreed to withhold all communication with everybody else in the order of the scribble. Confronted with a perceived need to protect his stronghold from "scry-and-die" attacks and a strong desire to keep contact with his beloved Lirian, he made a compromise.

As many compromises, it may be said that it managed to fail to satisfy both sides of the equation. However, I think that the reasons for the compromise are understandable and human.

[Emo Samurai]

]Lord Shojo speaking: "When I was but a boy, learning at my father's knee, an aged Soon came to him and transferred command of the Sapphire Guard. Soon said that it was crucial that the defense of the city and the defense of the gate be held in the same capable hands" )

So he passed it on to a politically powerful man instead of his wisest or most powerful disciple or whatever? That seems like something of a violation in and of itself.


The point is that every "gate-keeper" was supposed to, by whatever means, keep an eye on their own gates. All of them except (perhaps) for Girard (and also perhaps for Serini, but we know nothing about Serini's way of dealing with the 5th gate, except that she dedicated it to Kraagor and protected it with tremendous monsters of awesome power) stayed physically around their own gate to keep an eye on it. Girard, however, added a deception in the form of fake coordinates that would take whoever followed them to a trap. The Order of the Scribble agreed to monitor each other's gates (Comic #277). It would be only logical to monitor your own trap to see if it has been sprung and then check to see what has happened there. Girard may well stay next to his own gate, keeping an eye on it like the others.

I have no problem with using traps and scrying and whatever, I'm just saying that the really out-of-place keyword heuristic system was probably symbolic.


What we have here is a Druid, who has expressed reverence for nature. Yes, she created the virus, but its creation conformed to druidic rules of conduct. She uses it as an important line of defense against magic-using intruders, and it appears rather obvious, reading SoD, that she sees it as an integral part of the whole ecosystem (a very Druid thing to do):

Not a criticism, she's just more Frankenseinian than any D&D character I've ever seen.


Regarding the "simple clothing"... Come on... If we want to go all "stereotypical Haley-style rogue" here, <tongue-in-cheek>the simpler and cheaper the clothes she has, the more gold she can keep for herself!</tongue-in-cheek> :smallwink:

Okay.

You can't deny, though, that of the two great Dorukan constructs we've seen, both of them had the means of defeating them, at least in a limited sense, built right into them.

[pinwiz]

So he passed it on to a politically powerful man instead of his wisest or most powerful disciple or whatever? That seems like something of a violation in and of itself.

Think about this: what if he told his best paladin? They aren't the ruler of the city, merely an advisor. If the leader decided, "hey, this throne would be awesome on the other side of the room, let's move it" they would be blown to bits or they would open the rift. If the leader knows it, he'll use his influence and the whole city's power rather than just a few paladins.

[Emo Samurai]

He still diluted his order and laid the grounds for the kind of chaos that having someone like Shojo in charge of the Guard brought. I don't deny that he was an effective ruler, but it just doesn't make sense making him leader of the Guard.

And it wouldn't have been THAT hard to let one more dude in on the secret, especially since the room is set up in such a way that the sapphire HAS to be there.

[rewinn]

...of the two great Dorukan constructs we've seen, both of them had the means of defeating them, at least in a limited sense, built right into them.
They weren't bugs, they were FEATURES!

Seriously, a self-destruct is a very important feature on powerful items that could fall into enemy hands. Ask James T. Kirk!

As for the "Summoning" exception to the cloister spell, it is NOT necessarily a bad thing when you consider what the purpose of the cloister was. If Dorukan had to leave the cloister to visit his beloved, that would be a much bigger risk to the safety of the Gate than the ability to let her in.

At any rate, magic items with no little oddities are boring. You can tell a diamond is real if it has flaws.

[Red XIV]

You can't deny, though, that of the two great Dorukan constructs we've seen, both of them had the means of defeating them, at least in a limited sense, built right into them.
Cloister doesn't make getting into an area impossible and was never meant to. Such a spell would be completely implausible. It would be as far beyond epic magic as epic magic is beyond regular magic. It was just intended to make an assault on the Dungeon of Dorukan harder. You can't scry the location or anything inside it, you can't teleport in (barring an apparently very rare epic spell). The fact that someone on the inside can summon people from the outside wasn't going to compromise it, because the enemy still has to get inside first. While the elves who linked up with the Azure City resistance showed that's quite possible, sneaking into a large city unnoticed is generally easier than sneaking into a dungeon, because the dungeon has a lot fewer entrances.

And the self-destruct was not a flaw because there are worse things than the destruction of a gate. It obviously occurred to Dorukan that something like the Dark One's plan might be possible, if a sufficiently powerful and knowledgeable bad guy found out about the gates. Maybe he should've done more to make sure an unauthorized moron couldn't set it off unnecessarily, but he obviously considered it more important to make sure nothing would stop it from being activated if needed.

[littlekKID]

So he passed it on to a politically powerful man instead of his wisest or most powerful disciple or whatever? That seems like something of a violation in and of itself.


.

a good (or wise) paladin and a good and wise commander are two Different things, while someone can be both (like Soon), being one dpesn't mean he'll be the other.


also, we know NOTHING about Shojo's father, maybe he WAS the best Paladin, Who knows?

[Psyren]

So Dorukan tweaked one of his spells so he could make the beast with two backs with his girlfriend. What a monster! :smalltongue:

[TriForce]

So Dorukan tweaked one of his spells so he could make the beast with two backs with his girlfriend. What a monster! :smalltongue:

also, didnt dorukan make extensive use of summoning spells in his battle against xykon? again, i didnt read it myself so im not sure, but if he did, its not unreasonable to assume that he was a summoning specialist, all the more reason to leave an exeption for those in his cloister spell

[Psyren]

also, didnt dorukan make extensive use of summoning spells in his battle against xykon? again, i didnt read it myself so im not sure, but if he did, its not unreasonable to assume that he was a summoning specialist, all the more reason to leave an exeption for those in his cloister spell

Given the way he mishandled the best conjuration spell in the game, I really hope he wasn't a specialist. :smalltongue:

In all seriousness though, I think that was the only conjuration he used in the fight. (Aside from teleporting outside to begin with.)

[Roland Itiative]

I agree with the thread title, but I can't say I agree with the reasoning behind it. The Order of the Scribble aren't "paragons", they're just one more group of adventurers in the world, one that happened to have achieved epic levels. They had their own shenanigans, and personality flaws, just like every other character in the comic. They probably aren't optimized to the max either, if you look at it from a rules standpoint.

However, they are not meant to be paragons at all. They're meant to be just what they are, an epic group that presumably saved the world from the Snarl by finding and creating the Gates.

[Swordpriest]

And here I thought, from the title, that it was a 4e reference to the paragon tier (there is such a thing, isn't there?) .... :smallwink:

[Katana_Geldar]

4e does exist in the OOTS world

[Gandariel]

You can't deny, though, that of the two great Dorukan constructs we've seen, both of them had the means of defeating them, at least in a limited sense, built right into them.

....Did we read the same book?
'Cause the "flaw" in the Cloister spell didn't have anything to do with Dorukan's defeat...
(actually Dorukan himself exploited it by using a summoning spell...)