PDA

View Full Version : Good LA +1 or 2 template?



mootoall
2010-12-24, 08:59 PM
In this case it's going to be a free template that gets applied to both all of the creatures I summon, and eventually will be applied to my character, for The Summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8362628&) class.

Eldan
2010-12-24, 09:00 PM
Dark, from the Tome of Magic, is a very versatile and useful template. Speed bonus, resistances, and awesome stealth.

mootoall
2010-12-24, 09:02 PM
Dark, from the Tome of Magic, is a very versatile and useful template. Speed bonus, resistances, and awesome stealth.

Yeah, but that could be aquired from an item. Umbral Collar I think?

Jack_Simth
2010-12-24, 09:08 PM
Hmm... Feral is right out (Int penalty). Phrenic and Half-Fey are handy (more for you than for your Summons, though ... although being able to Summon a large number of creatures who can all Mind Blast your target can get downright funny).

Saint GoH
2010-12-24, 09:08 PM
Half Minotaur imo. Check it out. The LA is only +1, and it says you ALSO gain the benefits from increased size (see Monster Manual 291)

Im thinking in terms of your summons, the int penalty MAY be a hazard

gallagher
2010-12-24, 09:09 PM
Yeah, but that could be aquired from an item. Umbral Collar I think?

collar of umbral metamorphosis

and just because you can buy it as an item doesnt mean it isnt a useful template. the item costs like 10k for 10 min per day, and 22k for perpetual dark-templateness.

it is still incredibly useful considering that you would also be giving it to your summoned creatures.

worst case scenario, go for winged (i forget the LA on it) and summon flying bears/dinos

mootoall
2010-12-24, 09:15 PM
Hmm... Feral is right out (Int penalty). Phrenic and Half-Fey are handy (more for you than for your Summons, though ... although being able to Summon a large number of creatures who can all Mind Blast your target can get downright funny).

Actually, the class I'm using (as in the OP) is a Cha based caster, so Feral might not be bad. Can you give a book source? Phrenic I like very much.


Half Minotaur imo. Check it out. The LA is only +1, and it says you ALSO gain the benefits from increased size (see Monster Manual 291)

Im thinking in terms of your summons, the int penalty MAY be a hazard

Again, Int isn't my casting stat.


collar of umbral metamorphosis

and just because you can buy it as an item doesnt mean it isnt a useful template. the item costs like 10k for 10 min per day, and 22k for perpetual dark-templateness.

it is still incredibly useful considering that you would also be giving it to your summoned creatures.

worst case scenario, go for winged (i forget the LA on it) and summon flying bears/dinos

Well, the template doesn't get applied to me until 20th level, at which point permanent dark is pocket change. While it'll be good for stealthy summons (and actually now that I think about it, that might be useful if there's no trapmonkey ... literal trapcelestialmonkey? I like!) I'm looking primarily for the ones that'll get applied to me, and by 20th level that'll be easy.

Necroticplague
2010-12-24, 09:22 PM
Feral is from Savage Species. Works better if you're a race with a lot of racial hit die.

FMArthur
2010-12-24, 09:23 PM
The Shadow Template is basically a Greater Dark Template for LA +2, so if the limit is +2 you might as well get Shadow instead. Comes with other HD-based goodies, too, and multiplies your landspeed by 1.5.

mootoall
2010-12-24, 09:26 PM
The Shadow Template is basically a Greater Dark Template for LA +2, so if the limit is +2 you might as well get Shadow instead. Comes with other HD-based goodies, too, and multiplies your landspeed by 1.5.

Which book is that?

FMArthur
2010-12-24, 09:31 PM
I just looked it up in Lords of Madness but I think it's also found elsewhere.

Necroticplague
2010-12-24, 09:46 PM
Personal favorite 3 templates: Lesser phantom, Greater Phantom, Chameleon. The two Phantoms don't have an LA, but if you can work one out their pretty swell (I'm assuming LA of 1 or 2 because their CR 1 and 2). Chameleon is a good +1 template that gives you another option for touch attacks, a climb speed, and some help staying stealthy (good if you want to stay in the shadows while your summons do the fighting).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-24, 10:15 PM
If you want the Dark Template, try to get the one in ....Cormyr Tear of the Weave? (it was a faerun module IIRC) which changes the almost useless (Ex) Hide in Plain Sight, to the awesome-sauce of (Su) Hide in Plain Sight.

GhoulPolitician
2010-12-24, 10:23 PM
iirc there is a shadow template in manual of the planes

Jack_Simth
2010-12-24, 10:40 PM
Actually, the class I'm using (as in the OP) is a Cha based caster, so Feral might not be bad. Can you give a book source? Phrenic I like very much.Phrenic is in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, Feral is in Savage Species (3.25), and Half-Fey is in Fiend Folio of all places.

As for the Int, though...

"Toughened Summoning: A number of times per day equal to the summoner’s Intellegence bonus...."
"Flood Summoning: ... a number of times per day equal to the summoner’s Intellegence modifier"
"Mastery of Summoning: ... a number of times per day equal to her intellegence bonus."

You really don't want to lose out on Int with that class.

mootoall
2010-12-24, 10:45 PM
Phrenic is in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, Feral is in Savage Species (3.25), and Half-Fey is in Fiend Folio of all places.

As for the Int, though...

"Toughened Summoning: A number of times per day equal to the summoner’s Intellegence bonus...."
"Flood Summoning: ... a number of times per day equal to the summoner’s Intellegence modifier"
"Mastery of Summoning: ... a number of times per day equal to her intellegence bonus."

You really don't want to lose out on Int with that class.

Thanks for the sources!

Yeah, you're right, it is important enough to merit avoiding a hit from it.

Jarrick
2010-12-24, 10:50 PM
My class seems to be getting a lot of good reviews, as I've seen it pop up a few times since I posted it. That's really cool. I've always been a fan of pseudonatural (Complete arcane version). +20 to hit once per day per summon means that you'll likely hit at least once automatically, if you dont mind having a face for tentacles.

Edit: @Mootoall: Good luck with your character. Let me know how the class works out for you, if its not too much trouble. :smallbiggrin:

mootoall
2010-12-24, 10:53 PM
My class seems to be getting a lot of good reviews, as I've seen it pop up a few times since I posted it. That's really cool. I've always been a fan of pseudonatural (Complete arcane version). +20 to hit once per day per summon means that you'll likely hit at least once automatically, if you dont mind having a face for tentacles.

Yeah, it looks like a really good class, lol. Pseudonatural's good, but I'm liking Phrenic more and more ...

Darrin
2010-12-24, 11:11 PM
iirc there is a shadow template in manual of the planes

MotP is 3.0. The 3.5 Update booklet updated the template (LA +3), but the most recent version (which supercedes all the previous versions) is the one printed in Lords of Madness (LA +2).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-12-25, 02:38 AM
First of all, check out the feat Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Faerun, it would definitely be worth picking up. It's probably your best choice for adding special abilities to your summons.

Half-Fey (LA +2) from Fiend Folio (also here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)) is pretty decent for adding special abilities, plus everything will be able to fly. Summoning creatures which can use Glitterdust, Confusion, Eyebite, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, etc. is amazing, and throwing in a (Swift via Circlet of Rapid Casting) Greenbound Dire Bat to Wall of Thorns and Entangle opponents makes it that much better.

HunterOfJello
2010-12-25, 02:49 AM
Tier System for Templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0) could help.


Definitely grab the Magic-Blooded template. It's +0 LA and gives -2 wis, +2 cha.

Also, if you don't find one template that you really like, consider the Divine Minion template. If you grab Natural Spell, you could be casting spells while in the form of a hawk, snake, bear or lion.

T.G. Oskar
2010-12-25, 03:04 AM
Sure...it's not one you might like, but...

How in heavenly tarnation I hear Feral without mentioning Mineral Warrior? Especially since it's on a web excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)!?

The only thing that's gonna hurt is the -2 to Charisma (which would be your primary stat), but otherwise you get +4 Con (meaning more HP and Fortitude and Concentration), damage reduction 8/adamantine (which is a tad tough to beat), darkvision, a burrow speed, natural armor +3 and a smite-like ability that's based on Constitution. Plus you get the Earth subtype, if you're planning on working with anything. The only other drawback is the loss of fly speed, but if you work with your spells, you can remove that drawback.

Honestly, I usually see a "what's the best +1 LA template", and my mind immediately responds "Feral/Mineral Warrior". They're just THAT good and are almost a steal for what they offer (they should have a HIGHER LA than they have, probably a +2).

Jarrick
2010-12-25, 03:05 AM
You guys dont think the class features in question are OP, do you?

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-25, 03:40 AM
Any template? Must the summoned creature meet the prerequisites?

If not... There's always the Saint (BoED). The template gains more benefits than I'm willing to write down, but it's definitely its own thing.

FearlessGnome
2010-12-25, 08:47 AM
If you want the Dark Template, try to get the one in ....Cormyr Tear of the Weave? (it was a faerun module IIRC) which changes the almost useless (Ex) Hide in Plain Sight, to the awesome-sauce of (Su) Hide in Plain Sight.

What edge do (Su) abilities have over (Ex)?

2xMachina
2010-12-25, 08:56 AM
I don't think it's the Su or Ex that's important. (If anything, Ex is better, since it works without magic, but they tend to be weaker to balance it out)

The thing is... HiPS has a LOT of variations. Presumably, the Su is stronger in that it works in more instances.

Ernir
2010-12-25, 09:11 AM
Most of the good low-LA templates have been mentioned already.

Anyway, you get three templates, only one of which you end up with, so you shouldn't have to be very afraid of making all your summons Feral or something as long as you can end up as a Saint or a Phrenic creature.

A.K.A. pick one you want, and two you want your summons to have. They don't have to have anything in common.

You guys dont think the class features in question are OP, do you?
I don't think the class feature is, but some templates are.

A.K.A. it has optimization potential.

You might want to make it clear that the templates can only be applied to creatures that are normally viable for the template in question (unless the opposite was your intent, of course). Otherwise, you might end up with evil Saints as the least of your worries...

Lateral
2010-12-25, 11:10 AM
What edge do (Su) abilities have over (Ex)?

None, in general. However, (Ex) Hide in Plain Sight lets you hide without concealment in natural terrain; (Su) Hide in Plain sight works in *any shadow except your own*. Read that again. Then again. It's frakking insane.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-25, 11:22 AM
What edge do (Su) abilities have over (Ex)?


I don't think it's the Su or Ex that's important. (If anything, Ex is better, since it works without magic, but they tend to be weaker to balance it out)

The thing is... HiPS has a LOT of variations. Presumably, the Su is stronger in that it works in more instances.


None, in general. However, (Ex) Hide in Plain Sight lets you hide without concealment in natural terrain; (Su) Hide in Plain sight works in *any shadow except your own*. Read that again. Then again. It's frakking insane.

Actually the HiPS given throug the ToM Dark Template, only lets you hide while someone/thing is observing you, you still need concealment to hide meanwhile the( Su) version lets you hide whenever you want as long as there is a shadow, not your own, nearby.

Coidzor
2010-12-25, 11:27 AM
^: Hence the image of shadowdancer walking through a field by hiding in the shadows of the blades of grass. :smallbiggrin:

Well, there's an LA+0 Feytouched (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)variant for making it into a savage progressions level for the full benefits. And a 1 level savage progression class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a)for Feytouched to become Half-Fey. So with the ability to talk to your DM at all, you could back-engineer that into two +1 LA hits with all of the joys of the extra stat modifications from feytouched without the usual +1 LA and +2 LA hits.

Or at least you could make a +2LA template into a single level and have another +1 LA you could put in on top of the Feytouched (or wiggle room for +2 LA if the LA+0 Feytouched is allowed).

Jarrick
2010-12-25, 11:27 AM
::Looks at saint::

...

This template doesnt effect your alignment, it just requires that you be good aligned already.

Maybe meeting requirements and such is a good idea, but at the same time, I didnt want to be too restrictive as to what could be summoned. Saint for example cant be applied to outsiders or elementals, which constitute a good number on the lists.

I'll think about this. Because while summoning a Saintly Fire elemental sounds awesome, summoning a Saintly Babau demon ...doesnt.

If it were me DMing, I'd just rule that it changes the alignment of the summoned creature, but that's just me.

MammonAzrael
2010-12-25, 02:22 PM
What level are you? Do you honestly expect to hit 20th level? Even if you do, the template you want to apply to yourself can easily be chosen at 19th level.

As mentioned, there are some terrific options out there:

Mineral Warrior
Saint
Dark
Phrenic
Feral
Shadow

One question is...what about templates that don't offer a level adjustment at all, only a CR adjustment? Monster of Legend in Monster Manual 2 would be an amazing option, at CR +2.

An important question for your templates is...what do your summoned creatures usually do? Do you summon them primarily/exclusively for combat? Do you prefer beefy frontliners, ranged utility summons, etc?

mootoall
2010-12-25, 02:33 PM
What level are you? Do you honestly expect to hit 20th level? Even if you do, the template you want to apply to yourself can easily be chosen at 19th level.

As mentioned, there are some terrific options out there:

Mineral Warrior
Saint
Dark
Phrenic
Feral
Shadow

One question is...what about templates that don't offer a level adjustment at all, only a CR adjustment? Monster of Legend in Monster Manual 2 would be an amazing option, at CR +2.

An important question for your templates is...what do your summoned creatures usually do? Do you summon them primarily/exclusively for combat? Do you prefer beefy frontliners, ranged utility summons, etc?

I'm not sure about things like Monster of Legend, you'd have to ask Jarrick.

Since I get three templates to apply to summons, I'll probably use Phrenic as the first one, for the Cha boost (spell-like DCs) and PLAs, Shadow second for sneaking, and either Mineral Warrior or Feral for my tanks/meat shields. The fact I get three templates makes the choices pretty easy.

Jarrick
2010-12-25, 07:49 PM
In the original draft of the class, it was any template that didnt add more than a +2 Challenge Rating. That created problems though, since a lot of templates' challenge rating adjustments scaled with the creature's HD and what-have-you, so I just changed it +2 LA or lower. Gives the class more stability. Also prevents things like letting summoners apply the Lich template to their summons. Flood summoning a small army with paralyzing touch attacks? Yeah, no...

Edit: With a heavy heart, I made the change requiring that the creature must be able to normally qualify to gain the chosen template.

MammonAzrael
2010-12-25, 08:25 PM
In the original draft of the class, it was any template that didnt add more than a +2 Challenge Rating. That created problems though, since a lot of templates' challenge rating adjustments scaled with the creature's HD and what-have-you, so I just changed it +2 LA or lower. Gives the class more stability. Also prevents things like letting summoners apply the Lich template to their summons. Flood summoning a small army with paralyzing touch attacks? Yeah, no...

Edit: With a heavy heart, I made the change requiring that the creature must be able to normally qualify to gain the chosen template.

So then...is it your intention to have templates that have no level adjustment not qualify, or do they if their CR adjustment is +1 or +2 and doesn't scale? Monster of Legend is one of the better ones I can think of that falls into that category, and a definitive answer would be good (and obviously need to be reflected in a class update).

Jarrick
2010-12-25, 08:37 PM
I would personally either flat out disqualify them, or say "ask your DM" and I'd advise that dm to carefully weigh any given template. I know a lot of 3.0 templates are knocked out that way, since they have no listed level adjustment, but LA=/=CR for things like this. The Lich is a good example of why basing it off CR wouldnt work reliably.

Vampire is an even better example.

Glimbur
2010-12-25, 11:53 PM
Draconic is... kind of uninspiring as a template, but it is a little special in that it has no downsides. Races of the Dragon.

2xMachina
2010-12-26, 11:06 AM
^: Hence the image of shadowdancer walking through a field by hiding in the shadows of the blades of grass. :smallbiggrin:


Heh, a pair of Shadowdancers hiding in each others shadows.