[3.5] Becoming humanoid again?

[Curmudgeon]

I'm working up a goblin character. Goblins are normally pretty weak (Challenge Rating 1/3), so I thought I'd add the Feral template (Savage Species) for +1 LA. That works out pretty well, but it changes the type from Humanoid (goblinoid) to Monstrous Humanoid (goblinoid). How can I get back to Humanoid (goblinoid) permanently?

In case you're wondering, the Darguun Mauler feat (Races of Eberron) requires that exact type and subtype. I'm still set for entry into Stonedeath Assassin (Races of Stone) with just the subtype, but I'd really like to take Darguun Mauler plus a couple other humanoid-only feats.

[Flickerdart]

Humanoid is on the bottom of the type pyramid. There isn't anything short of Polymorph Any Object that will give you the type back.

[Urpriest]

Humanoid is on the bottom of the type pyramid. There isn't anything short of Polymorph Any Object that will give you the type back.

Not quite, you just need things that explicitly ignore the type pyramid.

The usual Incarnate Construct trick should work here: make yourself into a construct with Dustform, then Incarnate Construct will take you to humanoid.

[Flickerdart]

But you lose the Goblinoid subtype, don't you? Does dustform let you keep it?

[Urpriest]

But you lose the Goblinoid subtype, don't you? Does dustform let you keep it?

Neither Dustform nor Incarnate Construct says it affects subtypes. Unless there's a more general rule that says they would?

[Curmudgeon]

I guess that +2/-2 (minimum 0) LA trick would work. I'll be losing 10' of speed from my air goblin :smallfrown: and there'll be some alignment whiplash:

Usually neutral evil -> Always neutral -> Usually neutral :smallyuk:
For the most part this looks like a wash, which is what you'd expect for LA +0.

Anyway, this looks like a cheaper alternative than relying on the Savage Species recommendation to use Wish to change type (page 150). I'll already be losing out on all the monster HD-only features of Feral; I really don't want to pay 26,530 gp (and of course wait until a level where I've got that amount of cash) for the privilege.

[Coidzor]

Can Savage Species Rituals give one back the Goblinoid subtype if it's lost? :smallconfused:

Otherwise it could be used as an example to homebrew up a cost for doing so...

Couldn't remember if it was subtypes or just types that were covered in those rituals.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, the Ritual of Association (Savage Species, page 148) can give (back) a subtype.

I've worked through the consequences of Feral -> Dustform -> Incarnate Construct, and it's not really what I'd hoped for. The problem is that Incarnate Construct removes all special attacks and special qualities the creature had previously. So no darkvision or fast healing (increasing with HD) from Feral (nor darkvision from air goblin ─ I've lost that twice :smallmad:), which is mostly why I wanted that template.

On the other hand, Incarnate Construct generates average scores for CON and INT. That means I can leave those at 8 each with point buy, skip over the Feral adjustments (a boost to CON, a suck to INT) and end up with values around 12 for those two abilities. So this 3-part template combination will trade the special abilities from Feral for better stats. (Since I'm not paying any points for CON or INT, I can make my 3 top ability scores 16 instead of 14. That's going to help with an inherently MAD character: Rogue/Shadowdancer/Stonedeath Assassin. I wasn't originally planning to dip into Shadowdancer, but now I need Shadowdancer 2 to regain darkvision. :smallannoyed:)

[Nate the Snake]

If this is for an actual game, I suggest asking your DM to just gloss over the explicit Humanoid requirement and be done with it. The "Humanoid (goblinoid)" requirement is really just a poor choice of words anyway. Drow Skirmisher, Mror Stalwart, and Talenta Warrior give basically the same benefit for other races without listing the Humanoid type in the requirements.

[Curmudgeon]

If this is for an actual game, I suggest asking your DM to just gloss over the explicit Humanoid requirement and be done with it.
There are other Humanoid-only feats, though. I'm not going to ask for special dispensation from all such rules; it's just not in my nature. Besides, addressing problems like this is part of the challenge. In short: it's fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

There are other Humanoid-only feats, though. I'm not going to ask for special dispensation from all such rules; it's just not in my nature. Besides, addressing problems like this is part of the challenge. In short: it's fun. :smallbiggrin:

I have to second this. Nate, if you hang around this forum long enough you'll begin to understand that Curmudgeon is the last person you'd want to suggest just fudging something to.

[Coidzor]

Huh, and here I'd thought humanoid only feats were so rare that it'd be once in a bluemoon that a build would want one of 'em.

What are the other humanoid only feats you're angling for?

[Curmudgeon]

The one I'm most interested in is Aberration Blood (Lords of Madness, page 178) which can grant flexible limbs to a Humanoid. Next add Extended Reach (Savage Species, page 34), which grants +5' to reach if you have flexible body parts.

Then, remember that I also wanted Darguun Mauler (Races of Eberron, page 108) which lets a Humanoid (goblinoid) treat the spiked chain as a martial weapon, and maybe you'll see what I'm getting at.

I was originally planning to make a 1-level dip into Barbarian as the class which gets proficiency with all martial weapons, and go for the usual Spiritual Lion Totem option for pounce; Feral changes the character's favored class (normally Rogue for goblins) to Barbarian. But the template shenanigans to regain Humanoid type end with Incarnate Construct, making favored class Fighter. So that'll work as well, and either help with the character's feat requirements or I can go for the sneak attack Fighter variant.

Still in the works:

Decide whether to dip into Shadowdancer to regain darkvision. The character's looking too feat-starved to make that possible.
Must pick a class with sneak attack stacking language, because none of the three sources (Rogue, Stonedeath Assassin, variant Fighter) includes that yet. Without such, all of these sneak attacks would overlap rather than add together. :smallannoyed:

Nightsong Enforcer is a good choice (full BAB), but can't be entered before level 8.
Assassin/Stonedeath Assassin has a rather emphatic ring to it. :smallwink:
Master of Masks would work, but only while wearing the Assassin mask.
Justiciar of Taiia would fit the bill, but I'd have to figure out some use for the weapon bonus feat. Maybe Exotic Weapon Proficiency (great crossbow)?
Guild Thief would also work, but it's a 3.0 class so it would need DM review for any minor adjustments.
I've got a lot of cramming to make these all fit into a level 10 character. Here's one possibility:

Rogue 1: Poison Use ACF replaces trapfinding (Drow of the Underdark, page 58)
Rogue 2
Sneak attack Fighter 1; +1d6 sneak attack
Rogue 3: Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF trades trap sense for sneak attack with ½ normal dice against sneak-immune foes you flank (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208)
Rogue 4
Stonedeath Assassin 1; trapfinding
Justiciar of Taiia 1; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (great crossbow); +1d6 sneak attack
Stonedeath Assassin 2; +1d6 sneak attack
Rogue 5; +3d6 sneak attack
LA +1 (I'll buy this off at character level 3, but I'll still be starting 3,000 XP behind the others at level 10.) That's a total of +6d6+9 sneak attack damage, which is decent for 9 character levels.

Feats (assuming 2 flaws)
1: Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52): all Knowledges are class skills
1: Aberration Blood
1: Extended Reach
3: Darguun Mauler: gain proficiency with spiked chain, bonus to attacks
6: Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17): +1/character level to sneak attack
9: Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, page 60): bonuses to attack and damage based on Knowledge checks