An ambitious dream: Statting Touhou girls with 3.5 [Archive]

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-25, 02:19 AM

So here ye be, come to lend your knowledge and intelligence to the difficult task of statting up some of our favourite lasses of Gensokyo using purely 3.5 (maybe Pathfinder) material. I don't know how far this will go, or even if the project will get off the ground, so I figure we'll just try to take it one at a time. Also, if there's a better area for this topic, please point it out.

My vote for the first character we tackle is Sakuya Izayoi, the perfect and elegant maid of the Scarlet Devil Mansion. If anyone would like to begin with a different character, then I suppose we can either take an actual vote or you can just begin on your own.

-------------------------------
The goal is to capture, as accurately as possible, both the flavor and the abilities of the specified character. Actual ability scores, if we choose to go there at all, may be hard to guess in a lot of cases, but I figure we'll guesstimate as best we can.

Now, so we know what we're up against, here are some of the difficulties that I can see with this project:

1. Touhou is all about hideous, swirling barrages of colorful, often magical, projectiles; it's fairly difficult to find ways to throw large volleys of attacks like that in D&D, particularly if you're going to do it several times in a day, and rolling up bunches of attacks every round is a pain in the arse.

2. Gensokyo is a magnificent hodgepodge of ancient mythology, more modern fantasy, and original creations; it may be difficult, for one thing, to find appropriate races for the girls, but I'm highly resistant to homebrewing anything for this project, so we'll just have to look hard, and be creative.

3. Certain magical weapons, etc may be difficult to reproduce, though personally I'm quite fine with making them unique artifacts, so long as they use essentially materials/magical properties/spells/etc from 3.5.

Feel free to bring up other difficulties we'll face, as well as possible solutions (I have plenty myself, mostly simple ones, but I'll create a list of counters to the problems later, once I've found out if there's actually any interest).
---------------------------------------

So, what do we know about Sakuya? I know at least that she's fast, acrobatic (going by the fighting games, which I would suggest we rely on more than the danmaku ones), highly skilled with knives, and of course has the signature ability to manipulate time and space. She is also human, and fiercely loyal to her mistress, Remilia Scarlet. Personally I doubt that she would be of evil alignment, but I suppose we'll need some evidence for that. Also her knives are silver.

Feats that spring to mind immediately are the two-weapon fighting line, quick draw, and ranged feats like rapid shot. Spells I can think of that might be appropriate include cloud of knives (PHB2), possibly ring of blades and/or blade barrier, haste, slow, and time stop (though time stop has the horribly untheatrical limitation of not allowing any kind of physical attacks to be made, but maybe she could cast a bunch of 'cloud of knives' spells while time is frozen?). Psionic powers that come to mind include time hop and temporal acceleration.

So what could she be? A psychic warrior with the Time mantle? A cleric with the Time and Celerity domains? Some kind of gish? Let's hear your thoughts.

Also, does anyone know whether her watch is actually the source of her powers, or augments them in some way? And how is she going to fly?

AslanCross

2010-12-25, 05:26 AM

Someone did attempt to put together a Touhou d20 game that assumes aerial combat and spellcards.
(http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19876986/Touhou_d20:_Races_of_Gensokyo)

My own takes, though:
I was thinking Sakuya would be a Swordsage/Rogue/Master Thrower. She can
get Diamond Mind maneuvers, especially the time-related ones like Time Stands Still.

Reimu is some kind of Clericzilla with the Protection and Exorcism domains.
China and Yuugi are Unarmed Swordsages.
Youmu I've actually used as an inspiration for a character: Kalashtar (closest thing to a half/ghost) Swordsage/Psychic Warrior.

Remilia is a half-fiend vampire warlock/hellfire warlock.
Flandre is obviously a Balor, since she has At-Will Implosion.
Yuyuko is a ghost psion.
Yukari is some kind of very powerful Far Realm entity outsider with 20 levels of Conjurer.

Utsuho is also likely a hellfire warlock; probably a kenku.

Suika is some crazy Tashalatora build gestalted with Sorcerer.

Patchy can fit thematically well with both Wu Jen or Wizard.

Marisa is a Wizard with the entire Prismatic line in her spellbook.

Alice is an artificer. I once mulled making homunculi that looked like little dolls. That can easily be done with the homunculi in Eberron. I could even flavor the default homunculus as a flying doll holding a large syringe of poison.
Archer dolls: Arbalester
Goliath Doll: Iron Golem with slashing claws (swords) instead of slams.

Eirin: Elan Cleric with the Moon and Healing domains.
Kaguya: Elan psion (for immortality)

Mokou: Unarmed Swordsage/Sorcerer/Jade Phoenix Mage.
Keine: Archivist

EDIT: My bad, A balor apparently doesn't have At-Will Implosion. Close enough, though.

Prime32

2010-12-25, 06:44 AM

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9500

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-25, 12:58 PM

Someone did attempt to put together a Touhou d20 game that assumes aerial combat and spellcards.
(http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19876986/Touhou_d20:_Races_of_Gensokyo)

An impressive work, but also largely homebrew; the point of this thread was to work within the existing limitations of 3.5.

My own takes, though:
I was thinking Sakuya would be a Swordsage/Rogue/Master Thrower. She can
get Diamond Mind maneuvers, especially the time-related ones like Time Stands Still.

Reimu is some kind of Clericzilla with the Protection and Exorcism domains.
China and Yuugi are Unarmed Swordsages.
Youmu I've actually used as an inspiration for a character: Kalashtar (closest thing to a half/ghost) Swordsage/Psychic Warrior.

Remilia is a half-fiend vampire warlock/hellfire warlock.
Flandre is obviously a Balor, since she has At-Will Implosion.
Yuyuko is a ghost psion.
Yukari is some kind of very powerful Far Realm entity outsider with 20 levels of Conjurer.

Utsuho is also likely a hellfire warlock; probably a kenku.

Suika is some crazy Tashalatora build gestalted with Sorcerer.

Patchy can fit thematically well with both Wu Jen or Wizard.

Marisa is a Wizard with the entire Prismatic line in her spellbook.

Alice is an artificer. I once mulled making homunculi that looked like little dolls. That can easily be done with the homunculi in Eberron. I could even flavor the default homunculus as a flying doll holding a large syringe of poison.
Archer dolls: Arbalester
Goliath Doll: Iron Golem with slashing claws (swords) instead of slams.

Eirin: Elan Cleric with the Moon and Healing domains.
Kaguya: Elan psion (for immortality)

Mokou: Unarmed Swordsage/Sorcerer/Jade Phoenix Mage.
Keine: Archivist

EDIT: My bad, A balor apparently doesn't have At-Will Implosion. Close enough, though.

All good starts, but I was hoping to go into much greater detail with each character, hence proposing focusing on one at a time; I would like to get as close as possible to actually being able to write up a full character sheet for them.

I have ideas for many of the characters, but on the subject of Sakuya, swordsage just doesn't feel quite right to me, partly because Diamond Mind is supposed to represent a sublime focus in battle, as opposed to actually manipulating time and space. Rogue seems to make some sense though, and considering all the 'grazing' they do, evasion might be a good ability to give to as many of the girls as possible.

Remember that she has to be able to fly, accelerate/decelerate/stop/etc time, throw/create many knives at once, create illusions(?), and possibly teleport short distances. Also, for the sake of accuracy, the minimum number of levels able to make the character do what they do should be used, gestalt is certainly open though.

NekoJoker

2010-12-25, 01:22 PM

How about the Swiftblade for Sakuya? it is fairly fast and at higher levels can stop time like a SLA.

just my two pence

IncoherentEssay

2010-12-25, 01:25 PM

My take on Sakuya, as posted on BG:

Sakuya Izayoi
Human Wilder 1-6/Psi. Swiftblade 1-10/Wld 7-10
STR:10 DEX:14 CON:12 INT:13 WIS:10 CHA:14+5 Init:+2+4 AL:??
HP:92 AC:// Sv:6b/10b/13b BA:+17 GRAB:+17 SPEED:30ft+20

Feats: Expeditious Dodge(RotW)(1st), Mobility(hum.), Martial wpn Prof.(any)(3rd),Expanded Knowledge()(Wld5,B), Expanded Knowledge(physical acceleration[PsW 2])(6th), Spring Attack(SwB1,B), Delay Power(9th), Expanded Knowledge()(9th,B), Extend Power(12th), Practiced Manifester(12th), Bounding Assault(SwB7,B), Psionic Meditation(15th), Skill Focus(Profession(Maid))(18th), Expanded Knowledge(Schism[Tel 5])(Wld9,B)

Skills: Balance(10r.), Concentration(23r.), Jump(23r.), Listen(15r.), Psicraft(6r.), Profession(Maid)(23r.), Spot(15r.), Tumble(23r.)

Special:Wild Surge +3, Psychic Enervation, Elude Touch, Surging Euphoria +1, Educated Wilder, Swift Surge, Blurred Alacrity, Sudden Manifesting, Psychic Reflexes, Evasive Celerity, Fortified Hustle, Bounding Assault, Diligent Rapidity, Perpetual Options, Innervated Speed

Psionics: PP/d:221+40 ML:20 DC:14+lvl
1st:Crystal Shard, Force Screen, Defensive Precognition(?)
2nd:Swarm of Crystals, Physical Acceleration
3rd:Time Hop
4th:Dimension Door
5th:True Seeing(?), Schism(?)
6th:Overland Flight
7th:Pers. Mind Blank(?)
8th:True Metabolism(??)

About the power choices:
Crystal shard/Swarm of Crystals sub for the knife barrages. Force Screen is pretty much Sakuya's blocking animation from SWR.
Def. Precogn. & Time hop are filler, though the hop is at least time-related.
Phys. Acc. is an obvious one.
Dimension Door is for SWR 22C. Also good for transporting heavy object above unsuspecting victims during time stop, if only for the meme.
True Seeing & Personal Mindblank are sorta mandatory at high lvls, right?
Schism is handy, if hard to justify for her.
Overland Flight, duh.
True Metabolism is sorta filler, mostly to have a use for 14 rounds of time stopping. Can be partially justified with accelerated natural healing, though the regeneration effect doesn't go well with that excuse.
There are dissapointingly few powers that deal with time to grab, so i had to make do with these.

Didn't include items and went with a 25 pt-buy. Potentially playable 1-20 i'd say, at least in low-op games. Can stop time for 14 rounds on lvl 20 (3pp(Phys.Acc.) + 6pp(Aug. Temp.Acc.) + 6X2pp (Augment dur.) + 2pp(Extend power)) using wild surge. More than 7 rounds aren't really needed, though.

On those six rounds, a sequence of:
7.) Schism/Focus/Physical Acc.
6.)diddly-squat(main), focus(schism)
5.) Aug.(+15d4) Delayed Swarm of Crystals/Focus/A.D.S.o.C.(main), Aug.(+9d
4) Delayed Swarm of Crystals(schism)
4.) Focus(main)/A.D.S.o.C.(main)/Focus(main), Focus(Schism)
3.) repeat of 5.
2.) repeat of 4.
1.) repeat of 5.
0.) open fire .
(3+1+3+1+3) => 8x18d4 + 3x14d4 = 465 slashing damage, no save/AC/SR. Good enough to take down most things in the MM. Bit of a one-trick pony sadly.
Also, the feats are a bit ... uninspired. All the necessary stuff is there but it could use some work. I mean, skill focus ? Also has room for flaws for adding a feat combo, maybe something based on Robilar's gambit, the skirmish damage & AoO from moving? Picking up Hustle
w. Exp. Knowledge would allow two extra Swarms for a bit more damage, though pp/d starts to become an issue.

One option would be using Delayed Telekinetic Thrust + Quickdraw during stopped time, drawing daggers as free actions and dropping them in-air to suspend them, with a Delayed Tel. Thrust to launch them when time resumes. Though what happens to items you let go of during time-stop effects is a bit of a mystery. Also, the Tel. thrust method is ridiculously weak to DR of any sort.

Not using the Psionic Swiftblade (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9161.msg308839#msg308839) cuts off a few rounds of Acceleration, but that's about it. Pureclassed Wilder 11+ can do all the stuff needed, if slightly less efficiently.

Edit: also, Hengeyokai from Oriental Adventures could be handy for Chen, Ran, Rin, Mystia and maybe Wriggle (using the stats for crab Hengeyokai?).
Also useful is that per OA, sorcerers can take the Wu Jen spell list if they wish, providing access to Giant Size and Minute Form (Suika), for example. Also Body Outside Body (one of Flan's spellcards).

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-25, 02:36 PM

How about the Swiftblade for Sakuya? it is fairly fast and at higher levels can stop time like a SLA.

just my two pence

Swiftblade is brilliant, I think it could definitely have a part in her build.

My take on Sakuya, as posted on BG:

Quote:
Sakuya Izayoi
Spoiler
Human Wilder 1-6/Psi. Swiftblade 1-10/Wld 7-10
STR:10 DEX:14 CON:12 INT:13 WIS:10 CHA:14+5 Init:+2+4 AL:??
HP:92 AC:// Sv:6b/10b/13b BA:+17 GRAB:+17 SPEED:30ft+20

Feats: Expeditious Dodge(RotW)(1st), Mobility(hum.), Martial wpn Prof.(any)(3rd),Expanded Knowledge()(Wld5,B), Expanded Knowledge(physical acceleration[PsW 2])(6th), Spring Attack(SwB1,B), Delay Power(9th), Expanded Knowledge()(9th,B), Extend Power(12th), Practiced Manifester(12th), Bounding Assault(SwB7,B), Psionic Meditation(15th), Skill Focus(Profession(Maid))(18th), Expanded Knowledge(Schism[Tel 5])(Wld9,B)

Skills: Balance(10r.), Concentration(23r.), Jump(23r.), Listen(15r.), Psicraft(6r.), Profession(Maid)(23r.), Spot(15r.), Tumble(23r.)

Special:Wild Surge +3, Psychic Enervation, Elude Touch, Surging Euphoria +1, Educated Wilder, Swift Surge, Blurred Alacrity, Sudden Manifesting, Psychic Reflexes, Evasive Celerity, Fortified Hustle, Bounding Assault, Diligent Rapidity, Perpetual Options, Innervated Speed

Psionics: PP/d:221+40 ML:20 DC:14+lvl
1st:Crystal Shard, Force Screen, Defensive Precognition(?)
2nd:Swarm of Crystals, Physical Acceleration
3rd:Time Hop
4th:Dimension Door
5th:True Seeing(?), Schism(?)
6th:Overland Flight
7th:Pers. Mind Blank(?)
8th:True Metabolism(??)

About the power choices:
Spoiler
Crystal shard/Swarm of Crystals sub for the knife barrages. Force Screen is pretty much Sakuya's blocking animation from SWR.
Def. Precogn. & Time hop are filler, though the hop is at least time-related.
Phys. Acc. is an obvious one.
Dimension Door is for SWR 22C. Also good for transporting heavy object above unsuspecting victims during time stop, if only for the meme.
True Seeing & Personal Mindblank are sorta mandatory at high lvls, right?
Schism is handy, if hard to justify for her.
Overland Flight, duh.
True Metabolism is sorta filler, mostly to have a use for 14 rounds of time stopping. Can be partially justified with accelerated natural healing, though the regeneration effect doesn't go well with that excuse.

There are dissapointingly few powers that deal with time to grab, so i had to make do with these.

Didn't include items and went with a 25 pt-buy. Potentially playable 1-20 i'd say, at least in low-op games. Can stop time for 14 rounds on lvl 20 (3pp(Phys.Acc.) + 6pp(Aug. Temp.Acc.) + 6X2pp (Augment dur.) + 2pp(Extend power)) using wild surge. More than 7 rounds aren't really needed, though.

On those six rounds, a sequence of:
7.) Schism/Focus/Physical Acc.
6.)diddly-squat(main), focus(schism)
5.) Aug.(+15d4) Delayed Swarm of Crystals/Focus/A.D.S.o.C.(main), Aug.(+9d
4) Delayed Swarm of Crystals(schism)
4.) Focus(main)/A.D.S.o.C.(main)/Focus(main), Focus(Schism)
3.) repeat of 5.
2.) repeat of 4.
1.) repeat of 5.
0.) open fire .
(3+1+3+1+3) => 8x18d4 + 3x14d4 = 465 slashing damage, no save/AC/SR. Good enough to take down most things in the MM. Bit of a one-trick pony sadly.
Also, the feats are a bit ... uninspired. All the necessary stuff is there but it could use some work. I mean, skill focus ? Also has room for flaws for adding a feat combo, maybe something based on Robilar's gambit, the skirmish damage & AoO from moving? Picking up Hustle
w. Exp. Knowledge would allow two extra Swarms for a bit more damage, though pp/d starts to become an issue.

One option would be using Delayed Telekinetic Thrust + Quickdraw during stopped time, drawing daggers as free actions and dropping them in-air to suspend them, with a Delayed Tel. Thrust to launch them when time resumes. Though what happens to items you let go of during time-stop effects is a bit of a mystery. Also, the Tel. thrust method is ridiculously weak to DR of any sort.
Not using the Psionic Swiftblade cuts off a few rounds of Acceleration, but that's about it. Pureclassed Wilder 11+ can do all the stuff needed, if slightly less efficiently.

Edit: also, Hengeyokai from Oriental Adventures could be handy for Chen, Ran, Rin, Mystia and maybe Wriggle (using the stats for crab Hengeyokai?).
Also useful is that per OA, sorcerers can take the Wu Jen spell list if they wish, providing access to Giant Size and Minute Form (Suika), for example. Also Body Outside Body (one of Flan's spellcards).

That build does a pretty brilliant job of capturing her essence, but it feels like more of a Sakuya-esque character than the closest possible build for Sakuya herself; I feel that her knives need to be physical weapons, both because we know that they're made of silver (or are silvered) and we can see her physically throwing them/slashing with them (in the fighting games).

One of the benefits of a class like Wilder though, is that they get very few powers known; obviously we don't want any of the characters to have a bunch of random, excess abilities that have nothing to do with their concept. For this reason, if we should use magic instead of psionics, a class like battle sorcerer might be appropriate (it also satisfies the martial weapon proficiency requirement of Swiftblade), maybe even with the other battle sorcerer (whatever it's called) variant from Complete Mage.

On the other hand though, I don't know how charismatic Sakuya really is...

IncoherentEssay

2010-12-25, 03:06 PM

Well, the good thing about psionics is how you don't have to take high level powers. Been quite a while since i did those stats, but i'm reasonably sure the crystal powers can be exchanged for Offensive Prescience and another lvl 1 or 2 power. Telekinetic Thrust requires the dropping of True Seeing at the earliest or the delayed acquisition of Time Hop/D.Door, with the eventual exclusion of True Metabolism. Or drop Schism.
This should result in a more faithful representation of Sakuya.

Main issue with it is damage, as Telekinetic thrust has very few sources to tap for moar damage. Offensive Pres. helps a bit, but any DR in excess of 10 makes her cry. 15x(d4+x) is potentially better than the crystals, and she can just resort to D.Dooring with roadrollers to take down high-DR targets :smalltongue:.

Though there is the can-o'-worms that is the "unattended objects within timestop" for this method :smallsigh:.

The other alternative is sorcerer with Arcane Strike + Shaped Whirling Blade spells. Has much less flexibility in terms of time manipulation and comes with excess baggage of spells known tho'.

AslanCross

2010-12-25, 07:12 PM

I guess you're right on a non-caster build not making much sense considering what Sakuya is capable of.

It's really hard to model Sakuya's hammerspace knives using physical objects, but here are a few things that can help:

1. gauntlet of infinite blades. Not perfect since it only generates one knife per turn (swift action activation), so not even having two of them really helps.

2. cloud of knives spell (PHB2): A great idea because the knives deal more damage than daggers (1d6) and the use of a silvered dagger as a material component can make all of the knives count as magic silvered daggers. This works great for her skills in SWR/UNL: Magic Star Sword, Dancing Star Sword, and Sense of Thrown Edge work well with this.

3. steeldance (PHB2): orbiting bladed weapons that can attack on their own. This can work with Crossup Magic and Propelling Silver.

What I can think of right now is more of a Wizard (at least 7th level)/Daggerspell Mage/Swiftblade. (With probably 2 fighter levels to nab Dodge and Mobility for Swiftblade.)
I don't really have time to build it right now, but I think this gives enough spell levels to model:
-Private Square (haste/slow)
-Sakuya's World (celerity; time stop is kind of too late-game to be useful)
-Luna Dial (hold person is fine for this really)
-Knife-throwing (cloud of knives)
-C. Ricochet (orb of force)
-[Scarred Soul] Soul Sculpture (haste-enhanced full attack plus celerity for one more round)
-two weapon fighting, the ability to cast while holding two knives (Daggercast class feature)
-Time Paradox (phantasmal killer)
-Imaginary Vertical Time (phantasmal assailants), assuming the swords are actually not real
-Vanish Everything (dimension door and the more short-range, low-level teleportation spells)
-her invisible barrier in SWR/UNL (shield)

EDIT: Apparently, Daggerspell Mage has some great class features for Sakuya:
-5th level: Double Daggercast (hold the charge for one touch spell for each dagger you wield)
-8th level: Arcane Throw (transfer the effects of a touch spell to a thrown dagger; if it misses the dagger flies back to the caster and retains the charge. This can model C. Ricochet quite well, but I'm just not sure which spell to put on it)
-10th level: Daggerspell Flurry (cast a spell as if it were Quickened while making up to a full attack with daggers)

With these it's worth going all ten levels in Daggerspell Mage. It has 9/10 casting as well. The only drawback is that it needs Sneak Attack +1d6, so she needs to take at least Rogue 1.

We're going to end up with something like:
Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Swiftblade 5/Daggerspell Mage 8

Feats:
1: Dodge
1H: Two-Weapon Fighting
2F: Weapon Focus (Dagger)
3: Mobility
6: Quick Draw
7W: Quicken Spell
9: Point-Blank Shot
12: Rapid Shot
15: Far Shot
18: Hamstring

The feats are really lame and about half of them are feat taxes for the PrCs, but most of what Sakuya does here is done by her spells.
You end up with a 15th-level caster in the end. This at least gives her access to Emerald Flame Fist, which is the only spell I know of that has touch range that can deal significant damage (for C. Ricochet; that spellcard is murder in UNL)

It is also possible to drop Swiftblade altogether or only take 3 levels thereof, but that makes her a lot less versatile. I'd think dropping Swiftblade would be a good thing in this build as that allows her to skip Dodge and Mobility.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-25, 08:06 PM

AslanCross

2010-12-25, 08:18 PM

Hmm, well I'm thoroughly convinced that magic is the way to go, haste/slow/celerity/cloud of knives, etc just fit way too well. How do you think you would stat her as a gestalt character? It would be nice to see her with 9th level spell slots for time stop, just for the maximum use of her abilities. I'd also kind of like to see her with evasion.

Daggerspell Mage is good, but unfortunate... it doesn't actually increase caster level, you know. But if she were gestalt she could take her casting class at the same time and get full casting right?

Edit: on the subject of irritating feats, can you think of any flaws that might be appropriate for Sakuya?

Daggerspell Mage does increase caster level. :smallconfused: Better than Swiftblade, I might add. In fact in this build she gets most of her caster levels from DsM.

As for Flaws: Frail and Weak-Willed, I guess. IIRC there were rumors that Sakuya was once a vampire hunter who ended up a thrall willing servant of Remilia. Not sure about the source, though.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 01:16 PM

Daggerspell Mage does increase caster level. :smallconfused: Better than Swiftblade, I might add. In fact in this build she gets most of her caster levels from DsM.

I'm afraid it does not, unless there has been some errata or something; it only increases spells per day and spells known.

As for Flaws: Frail and Weak-Willed, I guess. IIRC there were rumors that Sakuya was once a vampire hunter who ended up a thrall willing servant of Remilia. Not sure about the source, though.

Yeah, I've heard the same thing, don't know of a definite source either.

Edit: This video seems to tell a different story though; I doubt either theories are anything but pure fanon though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdlMdyURwtk&feature=related

Bad Situation

2010-12-26, 02:04 PM

Rinnosuke is an artificer with a bag of holding.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 02:12 PM

Rinnosuke is an artificer with a bag of holding.

Heh, I'd say he's simple enough; what about his race though?

World Eater

2010-12-26, 02:28 PM

Cirno Lv 9 Wizard/Cleric Gesalt Rank 9 Diety

Prime32

2010-12-26, 04:19 PM

Yeah, I've heard the same thing, don't know of a definite source either.

Edit: This video seems to tell a different story though; I doubt either theories are anything but pure fanon though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdlMdyURwtk&feature=relatedAnother common theory is that Sakuya is a Lunarian.

Cirno Lv 9 Wizard/Cleric Gesalt Rank 9 DietyLv9 wizard with 9 Int.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 04:33 PM

Lv9 wizard with 9 Int.

Hmm, I think she'd be more appropriate as a sorcerer; I really don't see her doing well with books for one thing, and the sorcerer's limited number of spells known is easier to work with, since we pretty much know that Cirno's only tricks are to create ice and freeze things.

Also, I seem to recall Shikieiki saying that she is actually very powerful, and needed to use her power more responsibly (lest Shikieiki be forced to send her to hell).

Maybe something like an illiterate CN pixie sorcerer? On that note, does anyone know of a fey creature that can fly and has something to do with cold?

Bad Situation

2010-12-26, 05:10 PM

Oh, and Konpaku Youki is a Warblade who has since then ascended into the epic levels. For what its worth he has a few ranks into Profession: Gardener.

It takes an epic level PC's Wealth By Level Chart to feed Yuyuko after all.

Prime32

2010-12-26, 05:55 PM

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 06:50 PM

Well, I'd say we've pretty much covered Izayoi-san; Mr. AslanCross, I think, was pretty much right on the money with his conversions of some of her abilities to spells.

I think what we've got is more or less: TN Human Wizard or Sorcerer (or battle sorcerer, basically any full arcane casting class that gets all of the needed spells)/Rogue/ (fighter or something else if feats are needed)/Daggerspell Mage/Swiftblade. I feel that if I wanted to throw her into the game world I could easily do so using just this template and Mr. Cross' spell suggestions.
-------------------------------------------

The next character I'd really like to cover is Remilia Scarlet, the Scarlet Devil who I took my name from. She's probably among my top five favourite Touhou girls.

Anyway, what do we know about her?

-She's obscenely fast, and possibly able to teleport (short distances)

-She's a vampire; although her vampiric abilities might be a little vague, we at least know that she can change her form to a large bat, is very strong (much stronger than the young girl she appears to be at least), drinks blood, and hates sunlight and rain.

-Unlike most D&D vampires, she has wings.

-She throws knives, presumably skillfully, and wields the massive spear, Gungnir (which might be something like a throwing, returning, brilliant energy greatspear, but seems to work kind of like a line attack).

-She can control fate (my understanding is that this ability is very vague, does anyone know exactly what she's capable of?); if this ability only affects herself, then it might be represented by something like foresight (or dark foresight :smallwink:).

Am I leaving anything out?

Prime32

2010-12-26, 07:07 PM

If using Tome material
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/New_Rules#Vampire
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Child_Necromancer_%283.5e_Feat%29

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 07:21 PM

If using Tome material
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/New_Rules#Vampire
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Child_Necromancer_%283.5e_Feat%29

Hmm, Vampire Paragon is a possibility, but I don't know if it actually adds anything that's distinctly 'Remilia'. Child Necromancer seems highly unnecessary; presumably, Remilia became a vampire when she was very young, hence never aging past loli-hood. I can't think of any evidence of her being a necromancer either, as she is not shown to have created undead (even by draining their blood, because of her light appetite) or done anything else necromancery.

AslanCross

2010-12-26, 07:33 PM

I'm afraid it does not, unless there has been some errata or something; it only increases spells per day and spells known.

It uses the exact same wording as the Incantatrix, Archmage, and all of the PrCs in the older books (such as Complete Arcane). If what you're saying is true, then the Incantatrix's brokenness is moot due to it having only a CL of 5 for the rest of its career.

I think the old wording has it clear in its intent that "as if you had gained a level in the arcane spellcasting class" increases spells known, spells per day and CL; the only thing you don't get is your old class's class features.

Anyway, re: Remilia.

Given her fluff that she's "the Devil," giving her the half-fiend template works well, so she can have wings. Half-Fiend also gives lots of spell-like abilities; I'd say her "Scarlet Devil" spellcard could be modeled by blasphemy.
-Half fiend also gives: claws and an actual bite attack, neither of which vampires get.

I'd say she has Warlock levels, and that her projectiles are variants of Eldritch Blast. Having levels in Hellfire Warlock powers up her blasting even more.

-Eldritch Glaive and Eldritch Spear could model Gungnir for both melee and throwing.
-flee the scene invocation for teleportation. She can do it at-will and leaves behind a major image.
-hungry darkness: shadows filled with a swarm of bats. Can't get any more thematic than that.
-dark discorporation: turn into a swarm! Of bats!
-dark foresight: very good buff that works on self and others.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 08:05 PM

It uses the exact same wording as the Incantatrix, Archmage, and all of the PrCs in the older books (such as Complete Arcane). If what you're saying is true, then the Incantatrix's brokenness is moot due to it having only a CL of 5 for the rest of its career.

I'm afraid it's true, to the best of my knowledge; the wording is pretty clear about it, saying that the class increases spells per day, but never mentioning caster level (except in a few specific cases like Eldritch Knight). This is the reason so many magical prestige classes are avoided, and why practiced spellcaster is so loved.

It's the difference between "Spells per day" and "spellcasting", i.e the abjurant champion gets an increase in caster level, while the alienist does not.

Incantatrix is powerful because of its metamagic nonsense, but most of the abilities of the older prestige classes are paid for by sacrificing CL. I would love to be proven wrong in this though, but I'm not sure where to find official evidence that I am by RAW.

AslanCross

2010-12-26, 08:48 PM

Okay, I see what you're saying now. This is probably one of the most ridiculous rules-sense disjoints I've seen, as it makes some pretty well-liked PrCs like Geometer and Fatespinner suck completely. I now have a new houserule. :smallsigh:

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 08:55 PM

Warlock is the first thing that comes to mind for me as well (could just be because I love warlocks though :smallredface:). Calling her Gungnir attacks modified eldritch blasts works, but it begs the question as to whether the spear is actually a magical artifact that she owns, or just one of her spells (technically 'invocations' in this case).

I'm a little unsure of the half-fiend template for her... Scarlet Devil is really just a title (just like Batman isn't really a lycanthropic bat, Remilia isn't actually a devil), but it does give her wings. Also by RAW the vampire template can't be applied to a half-fiend, and hellfire blasts require the warlock to have a constitution score.

One way to resolve the wings issue is to give her the fell flight invocation, and say that the wings are a result of her vampiric transformation, but aren't strong enough to actually allow her to fly. They could be one of the sources of her slam attack, since she attacks with them in the fighting games. This isn't my favourite way to go about it though...

Edit:
I now have a new houserule. :smallsigh:

Good man; that's what most people do anyway, I think :smallwink:.

AslanCross

2010-12-26, 09:01 PM

Hmm, I did forget about the constitution requirement of Hellfire Warlock, but she pretty much can't be undead if she wants a powerful Eldritch Blast.

I find it much more challenging to base abilities on class features or spells, because Magic Items are far more easier to make up on the fly.

Title notwithstanding, I did always did feel that Remilia was closer to the original myth of the vampire as having diabolic ancestors than the typical modern-day vampire (who is afflicted by some sort of virus that makes them more good-looking).

Prime32

2010-12-26, 09:05 PM

Hmm, Vampire Paragon is a possibility, but I don't know if it actually adds anything that's distinctly 'Remilia'. Child Necromancer seems highly unnecessary; presumably, Remilia became a vampire when she was very young, hence never aging past loli-hood. I can't think of any evidence of her being a necromancer either, as she is not shown to have created undead (even by draining their blood, because of her light appetite) or done anything else necromancery.Necromancy doesn't consist entirely of undead creation. It even has healing spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseLife.htm). Gungnir could be Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm).

Here's a bunch of spells: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8076#msg8076

AslanCross

2010-12-26, 09:09 PM

Necromancy also has some pretty horrific and thematic spells, like Avasculate.

"So, the loli girl hits you with a black ray of crackling energy."
"What happens to me?"
"Your blood explodes."

Though I guess that's closer to something Flandre would do.

Prime32

2010-12-26, 09:18 PM

Necromancy also has some pretty horrific and thematic spells, like Avasculate.Automatically halve target's hp, and Fort vs stunning? YES.

Necromancy also includes Amaterasu Blackfire.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 09:22 PM

Title notwithstanding, I did always did feel that Remilia was closer to the original myth of the vampire as having diabolic ancestors than the typical modern-day vampire (who is afflicted by some sort of virus that makes them more good-looking).

Hmm, I'd never heard that before, but if it's true then that's brilliant; I just got an idea: she could be a tiefling with the feat from Races of Faerun that gives tieflings and Aasimar wings (I think it's called Outsider Wings or something) and a fly speed equal to their landspeed.

That still leaves the issue of her being a native outsider, which vampire can't technically be applied to, but I feel much more lenient to it than the more dramatic half-fiend. Thoughts on this or other ideas? We should also try to find some way to increase her speed, 'cause she moves crazy fast in the fighting games.

Necromancy doesn't consist entirely of undead creation. It even has healing spells. Gungnir could be Finger of Death.

Here's a bunch of spells: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...sg8076#msg8076

True enough, but that still leaves the issue of Remilia not really using any effects like that; it seems to me that she does more blasting than anything else.

AslanCross

2010-12-26, 09:27 PM

I don't know what reference this site got its description of the vampire (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire) of, but it seems she is closer to a fiend than to the common vampiric archetype.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-26, 09:42 PM

I don't know what reference this site got its description of the vampire (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire) of, but it seems she is closer to a fiend than to the common vampiric archetype.

In a way, but really only in that they're lumped together with all the other 'monsters' of Gensokyo (Oni, youkai, etc); that wiki and the games themselves state that the Scarlet Sisters have basically all of the 'traditional' weaknesses of vampires, as well as many, if not all, of their abilities/strengths (which come largely from Dracula of course).

The vampire template has all those weaknesses and abilities built in, while with the half-fiend template the bloodsucking/sun-hating etc would be mere fluff, and we would have to find some other way for her to turn into a bat.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-27, 01:03 PM

Bump... :smallsigh:

AslanCross

2010-12-27, 06:34 PM

No need to bump if it's only been less than a day. Threads here die after a month and a half.

I'm pretty much out of ideas about Remilia; I still think bending the rules and making her a half-fiend vampire warlock is the way to go.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-27, 07:44 PM

No need to bump if it's only been less than a day. Threads here die after a month and a half.

But there's a difference between being alive and being noticed :smallwink:.

Okay okay, so we use your idea or mine to give her wings while still being a vampire, make her a warlock with dark foresight, maybe eldritch glaive/spear, flee the scene, probably eldritch cone (refluffed as being made up of many small blasts), etc. Also I think eldritch doom works great for Scarlet Devil (affects everything within 20 feet, which would include straight up).

Any other invocations that would be appropriate? See the Unseen could work, because in Imperishable Night she was able to see the human village even though Keine had hidden it, though it could be more like she just made her will save vs an illusion effect.

Maybe give her anklets of translocation or something (probably refluffed as cute, frilly socks of translocation). It would still be nice to have a way to increase her movement speed, but I'm blanking on ways that don't involve strange class dips or magic items.

So basically all this, and a high dex score, probably a high strength score (18-20 ought to be fine, since I for one haven't seen her do anything too tremendous with her strength).

If no one has any more thoughts on Miss Scarlet though, then I guess we should move on; next I propose... maybe Marisa, Suika, or Yuugi.

Prime32

2010-12-27, 08:42 PM

If no one has any more thoughts on Miss Scarlet though, then I guess we should move on; next I propose... maybe Marisa, Suika, or Yuugi.Marisa: Look in BoED for star-themed spells.

Suika: Many of her abilities are best represented through spells, so while drunken master would seem natural it doesn't really work. Given that she also needs high physical strength, I'd make this a gestalt build. (see post (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9500.msg351744#msg351744))

AslanCross

2010-12-27, 09:18 PM

Marisa can probably be a Wizard (since she does study Magic), and I also thought Alchemist Savant would be a good PrC for her to fit her potions and thrown vials. Sorcerer seems more appropriate for blasting, but eh, the slower spell progression hurts.

I always thought Master Spark could be modeled by rainbow blast, while Final Spark could be an explosive prismatic spray.

Orreries Sun could be prismatic eye.

For metamagic shenanigans she could possibly take Incantatrix. Explosive Maximized Widened prismatic spray!

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-27, 10:01 PM

Wizard seems to make sense for her thematically, but I'd say she has inexplicably few spells in her spellbook (mostly blasting spells). Evoker works better of course, for the extra spells per day (because the Touhou girls don't exactly keep much in reserve when they start blasting), and it's a simple matter to choose her restricted schools (maybe necromancy and enchantment).

The prismatic spells work pretty well, ish, but some of their random effects are a little weird, like turning people to stone and whatnot. I think she definitely needs lots of metamagic, like sculpt spell, explosive spell, maximize/empower (and maybe their sudden versions), etc. All her lasers could probably be rainbow beams, or maybe blast of force (LoM).

Edit: Incantatrix seems like a good call too.

Altarus

2010-12-28, 05:06 AM

If we are doing Marisa, we shouldn't forget the Eight Trigram Elemental Reactor aka Mini-Hakkero.

Scarlet-Devil

2010-12-29, 12:00 PM

If we are doing Marisa, we shouldn't forget the Eight Trigram Elemental Reactor aka Mini-Hakkero.

Very true; any thoughts on what it could possibly be though? Maybe it could be treated like a metamagic rod or something, but it's actually supposed to 'fuel' her master spark, which implies that she can't normally cast master spark without it. In that case it might be effectively more like a staff or something (with metamagicked prismatic spray).

Scarlet-Devil

2011-01-06, 12:57 AM

Anyway, another girl I'd really like to try to work out is Captain Murasa, the ghost of a young lady who drowned at sea more than a thousand years ago. Her powers include flight (obviously), the ability to capsize ships, 'wield'(?) one or several anchors, presumably with great force, and something to do with a special ladle, possibly something that lets her use water offensively.

Honestly I'm not really sure where to start... Anyone know the damage of an anchor?

Salbazier

2011-01-06, 05:39 AM

How about Hijiri Byakuren?

AslanCross

2011-01-06, 07:23 AM

Byakuren strikes me as a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge (or maybe Shugenja?) with the Saint template. Not sure how to model her immortality, though.

Prime32

2011-01-06, 08:41 AM

Terraoblivion

2011-01-06, 09:11 AM

Prime32

2011-01-06, 10:34 AM

I'll freely admit that the one i'm the most interested in seeing what you could come up with for is Keine. Mostly just to see the hair pulling over how to describe her history manipulation, but also simply because she's one of my favorite characters. Really, recently her and Mokou have probably become my absolute favorites.Best I can think of is forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) and the Coat Hanger trick (similar to Locate City Bomb, modifies a spell that sees into the past to deal damage). Or just go with miracle.

There aren't many time-manipulating spells, especially not long-scale ones.

EDIT: Let's go psionic. There is a monster that eats peoples' time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/temporalFilcher.htm) (which is even capable of caving people). Also time regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) + time hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) + timeless body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm). Reality revision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) can also "undo misfortune". Psionic sequester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sequesterPsionic.htm) can "remove" people to a limited extent. Hyperconscious has erase presence which makes enemies unable to notice your allies for a while. Psychic reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) and mindwipe (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindwipe.htm) can handle the history of peoples' experiences. Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) lets her see history. Dimensional oubliette (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/dimensional-oubliette) is also nice, as is dimensional storage (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/dimensional-storage).

Any way to increase the weight limit on the latter two powers?

See BG thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9500.msg360766#msg360766).

Scarlet-Devil

2011-01-06, 01:01 PM

Best I can think of is forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) and the Coat Hanger trick (similar to Locate City Bomb, modifies a spell that sees into the past to deal damage). Or just go with miracle.

There aren't many time-manipulating spells, especially not long-scale ones.

EDIT: Let's go psionic. There is a monster that eats peoples' time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/temporalFilcher.htm) (which is even capable of caving people). Also time regression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm) + time hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) + timeless body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm). Reality revision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) can also "undo misfortune". Psionic sequester (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sequesterPsionic.htm) can "remove" people to a limited extent. Hyperconscious has erase presence which makes enemies unable to notice your allies for a while. Psychic reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) and mindwipe (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindwipe.htm) can handle the history of peoples' experiences. Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) lets her see history. Dimensional oubliette (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/dimensional-oubliette) is also nice, as is dimensional storage (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/dimensional-storage).

Any way to increase the weight limit on the latter two powers?

See BG thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9500.msg360766#msg360766).

Mmm, that's one way to do it; in the game though some people were able to 'see' the village even after she had hidden it, which implies that it may've been more like an illusion; a powerful, wide-spread illusion that caused anyone outside the village to perceive it as mere wilderness. It would also be nice to find some way to represent her were-hakutaku status, you know, in a non-large, humanoid form that still retains her caving abilities. Ah, something like Antipathy (youkai, if that works...) might be good too.

Hulking hurler is certainly one idea for the good Captain, but it requires you to be large... Whatever she is she's probably really strong considering that she can throw anchors around, and I suspect from her story that she's some kind of sorcerer or something, with spells that attack with water (and I can't think of many of those, certainly none that resemble orbs or bullets).

Prime32

2011-01-06, 01:24 PM

non-largeThat's what dungeonbred is for. It reduces your size by one category. And mechanically it's no different from a biped, so there's no reason it can't be described as one.

SuperFish

2011-01-06, 03:00 PM

Byakuren strikes me as a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge (or maybe Shugenja?) with the Saint template. Not sure how to model her immortality, though.

With Improved Unarmed Strike, or maybe monk levels, too, since she's described as buffing herself with magic, then laying the smackdown on her opponents.

AslanCross

2011-01-06, 06:11 PM

With Improved Unarmed Strike, or maybe monk levels, too, since she's described as buffing herself with magic, then laying the smackdown on her opponents.

In that case, Unarmed Swordsage/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage? (That's what I was thinking for Mokou, though)

Scarlet-Devil

2011-01-24, 10:58 PM

Well, I'm going to kind of go out on a limb and guess that Captain Murasa might be something like a Drowned(MM3) Battle Sorcerer/Sea witch, who throws anchors and only casts water related spells.

Also, Yuugi is a badarse, not really sure what she would be statistically though, aside from her race being (reduced)Common Oni (OA) or Ogre Mage.

Altarus

2011-01-27, 11:03 AM

I would say Drunken Master since it has booze. But that won't work since you can't manipulate supernatural phenomena with it.

Prime32

2011-01-27, 11:05 AM

Well, I'm going to kind of go out on a limb and guess that Captain Murasa might be something like a Drowned(MM3) Battle Sorcerer/Sea witch, who throws anchors and only casts water related spells.Hulking hurler/bloodstorm blade? For rapid-fire anchors.

I would say Drunken Master since it has booze. But that won't work since you can't manipulate supernatural phenomena with it.Well it does grant... *sunglasses* spiritual powers. :smallcool:

Altarus

2011-01-31, 07:39 AM

Don't forget that Yugi has ranks in balance, since her sake NOT EVEN DROP (http://doyora.deviantart.com/art/Not-Even-Drop-91078512)

Scarlet-Devil

2011-01-31, 11:21 AM

Don't forget that Yugi has ranks in balance, since her sake NOT EVEN DROP (http://doyora.deviantart.com/art/Not-Even-Drop-91078512)

:smallsigh: Yes, a good thing to keep in mind (and one of the few things we know about her abilities). Her power "to control supernatural phenomena" is easily one of the vaguest ones out there. For some reason I like to imagine her throwing people around, and maybe breaking things with her hands, so I was thinking Swordsage(or unarmed swordsage)/Warlock or something... for now. Although it's an easy assumption to make that she's Reduced, so she'd need to have some way to change her size at will I guess (as she's probably an ogre mage or common Oni).

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-10, 01:26 AM

Well, her grueling appearance in Subterranean Animism not withstanding, Hisoutensoku has inspired me to take a crack at Miss Utsuho Reiuji.

And, what do we know about her? She's a hell raven, a Yatagarasu, who gained the power to control nuclear fusion by consuming a god hidden within the flames of hell, which she maintained. She also has one of the coolest character designs I've ever seen, with her long black (or possibly dark brown) hair, big red 'eye' on her chest, black feathery wings, large white cape hanging over her wings with the night sky as a 'lining', etc etc. Keep in mind that she has a special 'arm cannon' of sorts, which helps her to regulate her powers somehow, and one of her feet is encased in rock (in Hisoutensoku, she uses both of these in her melee attacks).

So, what in the hells is 'nuclear fusion' in D&D? Well, I don't know, but considering the utterly massive temperatures involved with nuclear fusion, hellfire (which is hotter than any normal fire) seems a good place to turn. In fact, over at Brilliant Gameologists she's already been (partially) statted as a Hellfire Warlock.

If she is a Hellfire Warlock, how do we explain the frequency with which she uses her hellfire blasts (she would rack up CON damage pretty quickly...)? For her shield abilities, I suppose Entropic Warding could serve... but what else? Wall of Perilous Flame might be a good invocation for her, and Eldritch Cone and possibly Doom would serve well, maybe Repelling Blast too, just 'cause in the fighting games attacks are always knocking people away/prone.

Anyway, bring some ideas :smalltongue:.

Prime32

2011-02-10, 04:57 AM

If she is a Hellfire Warlock, how do we explain the frequency with which she uses her hellfire blasts (she would rack up CON damage pretty quickly...)?Every hellfire warlock ever takes a level of binder and binds Naberius for the ability score equivalent of fast healing 1. In Utsuho's case you can say Naberius is the god she ate.

Don't forget the Tome build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9500.msg320422#msg320422) which can spam meteor swarm and a fire version of storm of vengeance, while ignoring resistance to fire.

Otherwise you could go with Sanctified One of Kord to convert fire into divine damage ('cuz it comes from a god you see).

Or look up the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance (fire + positive energy)

The reth dakala from ToB have "balefire"(?) which deals half fire and half acid damage.

If you want to whack people with the Third Leg maybe renegade mastermaker.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-10, 01:17 PM

Yeah, Binder just seems slightly iffy to me... partly because it requires you to lose a Warlock level, which causes you to lose a die of Eldritch Blast damage and a Dark invocation. One, equally iffy, alternative would be to say that her shirt (with the big red eye) is enchanted to be +1 Soulfire (though a lesser version would probably be more appropriate).

I'll have to look into the Sanctified of Kord later, but they all look like decent suggestions. What does the Swordsage level in the Tome build do, though?

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-11, 02:43 PM

Well, inspired by a quick look through the Dragon Magic invocations I'm gonna stick with the Warlock idea, so here's what I've got:

Utsuho Reiuji (Warlock version, based largely on Hisoutensoku)
CN/E? Female Hell-raven (Half-fiend)
Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3
HD: 20D6+20?
Attacks: Third Leg +16/+11/+6(+STR) Melee (1d6+2+STR), or Unarmed Strike +14/+9/+4 Melee (2d6+STR), or Hellfire Blast +14(+DEX) Ranged Touch (17d6/x2)
STR: ? DEX: ? CON: 13+ INT: low WIS: ? CHA: ?

Invocations
Least: Entropic Warding, ?, ?
Lesser: Brimstone Blast, Ignore the Pyre(?), ?
Greater: Eldritch Cone, Eldritch Line, Repelling Blast, Wall of Perilous Flame(?)
Dark: Eldritch Doom, ?, ?

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest), Superior Unarmed Strike, Empower/Maximize/Quicken Spell-like Ability: EB, Extra Invocation (Greater)?

Items: Third Leg (Warlock's Scepter permanently attached to locked gauntlet; can be used in place of a hand for Invocation somatic components), Badass Cape of the Night Sky (Greater 'Cloak' of Fell Power)

Soulmelds: Eye of the Yatagarasu (Strongheart Vest)

Her badass cape definitely seems magical; if we were to take liberties and give it to her as a magic item, it might be something like a Greater Cape of Fell Power(Chasuble of Fell Power)/Cape of Charisma +6, or something defensive.

Modified: For race, I made a generic 'demon' out of a stripped human (no skill/feat bonus) with the Half-fiend template. Given all the spell-likes and junk that half-fiends get though, doing the same thing with the Fiendish (and maybe Winged) template might be better; in fact, this might come in handy a lot for this project.

Prime32

2011-02-11, 03:03 PM

What does the Swordsage level in the Tome build do, though?Searing Charge (for one of her UNL attacks). Also better AC.

Female Ummm, Winged... Fiendish Human? (Going mostly just by physical appearance...)Sure are a lot of humans in Gensokyo, eh? :smallwink:

Yeah, Binder just seems slightly iffy to me... partly because it requires you to lose a Warlock level, which causes you to lose a die of Eldritch Blast damage and a Dark invocation. One, equally iffy, alternative would be to say that her shirt (with the big red eye) is enchanted to be +1 Soulfire (though a lesser version would probably be more appropriate).You can't use hellfire blast if you're immune to ability damage. Bloodline levels increase your effective levels in all classes, so the +6d6 added to your hellfire blast more than makes up for missing one level of warlock.
Warlock 14/Hellfire warlock 3/Greater bloodline 3 is the standard HF warlock build. With enough levels to spare you can take it further with uncanny trickster and legacy champion, for an effective level of 16 in hellfire warlock (meaning hellfire blast adds +32d6 damage).

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-11, 03:14 PM

Sure are a lot of humans in Gensokyo, eh? :smallwink:

Heh, well, technically she's a winged, fiendish human, that's gotta be pretty different, right? :smalltongue:

:smallsigh:, But the other thing that comes to mind for race is just taking a humanoid demon/devil of some sort (maybe an erinyes)... or using the Half-Fiend template as her base "race", like a sort of generic 'demon' race.

Jm2c

2011-02-11, 03:14 PM

Soulfire (assuming it does what I think it does off the top of my head) doesn't work to negate the Con damage from Hellfire Warlock, unfortunately, because the Hellfire ability itself states you can't use it if you're outright immune. One option is Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest), which reduces all Con damage you take by 1. This is somewhat shady, as it makes you, in a way, immune to the Con damage from using Hellfire blast, but the cheapest option. Dipping a level of Binder is really the best option from a practical standpoint, as it's both unquestionably legal (you do take the damage) and pretty painless (so you lose 1d6 Eldritch Blast damage... big deal, you get 6d6 without repercussions from Hellfire Warlock).

For race, Raptoran should fit the bill. They're literally bird people.

Possibly add Legacy Champion and call the third leg her weapon of legacy to further pimp out the Hellfire Blast damage?

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-11, 03:18 PM

You can't use hellfire blast if you're immune to ability damage.

Och! I forgot about that... there has to be some way, other than the strong heart vest thing, to gain resistance to ability damage, but not immunity...

Edited for clarity: Strong heart vest really seems to work, by a strict reading of all the rules involved, as it only provides resistance, not immunity, the same way that energy resistance is not immunity to energy. But IIRC, it's pretty hard to actually get (requires a bunch of levels in one of the Incarnum classes).

I definitely favor some kind of outright resistance to the CON damage for Utsuho, rather than just gaining it back every round, as consuming Yatagarasu was supposed to give her complete mastery over nuclear fusion (hellfire).

Bloodline levels increase your effective levels in all classes, so the +6d6 added to your hellfire blast more than makes up for missing one level of warlock.
Warlock 14/Hellfire warlock 3/Greater bloodline 3 is the standard HF warlock build. With enough levels to spare you can take it further with uncanny trickster and legacy champion, for an effective level of 16 in hellfire warlock (meaning hellfire blast adds +32d6 damage).

If you like your gouda well aged, yes :smallamused:.

Prime32

2011-02-11, 03:20 PM

The winged template, by the way, kind of sucks. Raptoran (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1) is an LA +0 winged humanoid, though it doesn't gain true flight for a few levels.

EDIT:

Och! I forgot about that... there has to be some way, other than the strong heart vest thing, to gain resistance to ability damage, but not immunity...Already mentioned. Channel the soul of a dead god. :smallwink:

If you like your gouda well aged, yes :smallamused:.Which is why it's not "the standard build". :smalltongue: Though parts of it can be used as alternatives to bloodlines.

EDIT2:

But IIRC, it's pretty hard to actually get (requires a bunch of levels in one of the Incarnum classes).No, all you need is one feat: Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest).

Jm2c

2011-02-11, 03:33 PM

Which is why it's not "the standard build". :smalltongue: Though parts of it can be used as alternatives to bloodlines.

...But you called it the "standard build". :smalltongue:
I think the standard is along the lines of Binder 1/Warlock 6/HFW 3/Legacy Champion 10. For maximum Eldritch Blast damage, you replace 6 levels of Legacy Champion with Uncanny Trickster 3/Bloodline 3 instead, yielding a total of... 17 effective HFW levels. I personally favor throwing in a Mindbender dip as well, but that's neither here nor there.
For a somewhat typical sample build, see here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3389.msg113912#msg113912).

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-11, 04:25 PM

EDIT2:
No, all you need is one feat: Shape Soulmeld (strongheart vest).

So it is! I was mixing soulmelds up with chakras or something I guess (haven't actually used Incarnum in a game yet...).

Going to edit her slightly now, tell me if you think it's better.

Shade Kerrin

2011-02-15, 07:36 PM

Never played with binders before, but can't you take feats to gain access to a single vestige? Would circumvent the losing a level issue without getting messy with bloodlines...Of course, this is the version that doesn't play around with soulmelding Con DR

Jjeinn-tae

2011-02-15, 08:09 PM

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-16, 01:40 AM

Hmm, I shall make Cirno's character sheet, the strongest genius prodigy is a little deeper than what has been said.

Hmm, there do not appear to be enough Cold based cantrips, I skipped most of them.

Edit:

チルノ (Cirno) (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=275900)
Female ⑨ Ice Fairy (Uldra refluff) Sorcerer/Frost Mage, Level 5/4, Init +2, HP 25/25, Speed 20ft
AC 15, Touch 13, Flat-footed 13, Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +8, Base Attack Bonus 4
(+2 Dex, +1 Size, +2 Natural)
Abilities Str 4, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 11, Cha 14
Condition None
Resources Used:

PHB
Frostbite
Complete Arcane

Not bad; one big suggestion though is to give her Energy substitution: Cold; she could use that with scorching ray for her ice lasers, and I'm sure we could find some other spells to use with it, maybe shocking grasp or something for her default melee attack in Hisoutensoku (where she smacks people with a ball of ice or something).

Ah, Flaming Sphere might be good too, kind've, like for her snowball attacks or something.

Jjeinn-tae

2011-02-16, 02:22 AM

Hmm, Energy Substitution was going to be the level 9 feat originally, but I decided against it since I was just taking cold spells anyways... Now that's making more sense with Scorching Ray than a split ray Ray of Frost. Maybe Twin Energy Substituted Scorching Rays... Put my books away though for the night I'll check it tomorrow.

Prime32

2011-02-16, 04:45 AM

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-16, 12:17 PM

Probably easier to just say "freezing ray (as scorching ray, but cold damage)". Since ES would still let her use the fire version.

True, and custom spells are basically core anyway, assuming you follow the guidelines; just switching the energy type and keeping the same effect would be perfectly reasonable in most cases.

Perfect Freeze = (Extended) ice storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/iceStorm.htm)?

EDIT: Feat suggestion, Winter's BlastCM

Both seconded. Maybe she could have a flaw or two to make room for feats; perhaps Inattentive and... vulnerable? Or maybe Pathetic (with intelligence).

Edit: Although I also think her charisma could afford to be a bit higher; maybe a nice plump 18, given that she's adorable (in her way) and seems to have great self-confidence.

Jjeinn-tae

2011-02-16, 04:12 PM

Polar Chill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#polarChill) (why once per day? :smallsigh:)

Probably easier to just say "freezing ray (as scorching ray, but cold damage)". Since ES would still let her use the fire version.

And it's Frostburn, not Frostbite. :smalltongue:

Perfect Freeze = (Extended) ice storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/iceStorm.htm)?

EDIT: Feat suggestion, Winter's BlastCM

And that's the reason I shifted away from Energy Substitution, but just rebranding it Freezing Ray works well.

I can't get the book name right even when it's right in front of me... I have no idea why it gives me so much trouble...

I like Polar Chill, but I can't do Winter's Blast, just because I don't have Complete Mage. :smallfrown:

True, and custom spells are basically core anyway, assuming you follow the guidelines; just switching the energy type and keeping the same effect would be perfectly reasonable in most cases.

Both seconded. Maybe she could have a flaw or two to make room for feats; perhaps Inattentive and... vulnerable? Or maybe Pathetic (with intelligence).

Edit: Although I also think her charisma could afford to be a bit higher; maybe a nice plump 18, given that she's adorable (in her way) and seems to have great self-confidence.

I had kind of put in Pathetic already without giving the feat (wasn't sure if loading up on flaws would be quite right given Cirno's actual power). But I rather liked Innatentive and/or Weak Willed (she get's fooled a lot).

18 Charisma seems like a good idea now, how else would she get her own game?

Prime32

2011-02-16, 04:42 PM

I like Polar Chill, but I can't do Winter's Blast, just because I don't have Complete Mage. :smallfrown:Reserve feat. 15ft cone dealing 1d4/level of your highest-level remaining cold spell for the day (as long as its lv2+). +1 CL for cold spells.

AslanCross

2011-02-16, 06:04 PM

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-24, 03:05 AM

I just noticed that there are now several of us with Touhou girl avatars.

So there are; this site seems to have a fairly healthy following. I think we've had some good ideas for Cirno, and Utsuho I feel happy with for the time being, though ways to make her hellfire blasts stick around for a while and/or move would be good. The next one I feel like talking about is Tenshi.

Important information: Tenshi is a celestial, with virtually superhuman physical attributes (namely strength), she is presumably immortal, can fly (obviously) without wings, possesses a magical flaming sword with somewhat indeterminate (or at least hard to replicate), but powerful, abilities, and most importantly, she has powers over weather and the earth.

I don't have too many ideas just at the moment, but the first thing that comes to mind of course is to start with a celestial of some sort (angel, deva, eladrin...), mainly because some of them get earthquake as a spell-like ability and have powerful physical abilities (she needs earth-reaving strength).

Jjeinn-tae

2011-02-24, 04:29 AM

I just noticed that there are now several of us with Touhou girl avatars.

Anyway, there are a lot of really good (Ice) descriptor spells in Spell Compendium:

-Ice Axe (Cirno's melee slam)
-Ice Knife (ranged icicles)
-Icelance
-Ice Flowers (I'm pretty sure she has a large burst of icicles that erupt from the ground somewhere)
-Shivering Touch
-Lots of spells in Frostburn

When I started following this thread in the beginning, I'm pretty sure it was just you and Scarlet with Touhou flavored avatars... That has changed. :smalltongue: The only reason I don't personally is because I have a hard time picking favorites. Plus, Rashduk already has a nice hat, not that any of the characters I'm considering have one...

but it always seems I need another book. :smalltongue: Cirno will get those updates at some point.

But, on to Tenshi... She only appears in two games, which makes it really easy to look into what she demonstrates in the games so far. Might not be as easy on the eyes for you people, but everything she can do in SWR is here (http://hisouten.koumakan.jp/wiki/Hinanai_Tenshi). Then there is her fights in Double Spoiler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmOJDOqpQkM). She's supposedly based on the Tenbu (Buddhist Devas) but she doesn't necessarily share all or even most of their traits.

Probably Druid (maybe Gestalt? she's powerful) with wildshape and animal companion given away in ACF's, and focusing mainly on weather spells. Are there enough weather spells to fill slots at every spell level though? The terrain trilogy will probably be useful for some flavorful ones here. I notice though here spell card a minute and 50 seconds or so into the Double Spoiler video... That seems like cone of cold, except probably not cold.

Also, Everyone in Touhou can fly, regardless of wings (well... everyone important at least learns to) I'm not entirely sure it's necessary to put that in every build.

Prime32

2011-02-24, 08:18 AM

Well BoVD has rules for masochism... :smalltongue:

Apart from that, hail of stone and cometfall?

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-24, 12:49 PM

Well BoVD has rules for masochism... :smalltongue:

http://h-2.abload.de/img/op1smoq9yn.gif

Anyway :smallsmile:, hail of stone and cometfall seem somewhat appropriate. Basically her attacks are: sword attacks, kicks/body-slams/other hand-to-hand stuff, earthquakes, rocks, and lasers of various shapes and sizes.

It's a little hard to say which of her powers come from her sword and which are actually from her, and her sword generally stumps me a bit: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Sword_of_Hisou. Off the top of my head, I'm tempted to say that it's artifact level, as its abilities seem to change based on its opponent, so maybe something like a +5 Flaming Shrinking Ghost Touch longsword with a crystal of return(MIC) and other varying abilities.

Druid seems pretty iffy to me, partly because we know that basically all of her abilities are innate, partly because of all the weird nature/fey based abilities they get, partly because of their alignment restrictions (though I'm tempted to call Tenshi CN, so that would work, I just don't see that kind of restriction in her)... I kind of think that cleric (maybe with air and earth domains?) or favored soul would be more appropriate, if anything. If we're going to give her that kind of spellcasting ability though... well, it still makes me want to give her planetar or solar or some other celestial creature as a race, since that spellcasting is built right into it. I'm sure there's got to be some celestial creature somewhere that's more appropriate though, maybe with less baggage in the form of weird, inappropriate abilities.

Prime32

2011-02-24, 12:54 PM

Tenshi is a human who was elevated to the status of celestial though. So just throw on a template (celestial/half-celestial), or even the Otherworldly feat.

10 levels of contemplative turns you into an Outsider by the end, though...

unlike other celestials, the Hinanawis became celestials only by serving Nai-no-Kami; that is, not through training. So they didn't have the reputation expected of celestials, and some even called them "bad" celestials.

A sword that can "exploit any opponent's weakness" would be best represented by applying the relevant version of the bane enchantment at will. This could be done with artificer infusions, or by sticking a Fiend of Possession inside it that switches enchantments on command.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-24, 01:01 PM

Tenshi is a human who was elevated to the status of celestial though. So just throw on a template, or even the Otherworldly feat.

10 levels of contemplative turns you into an Outsider by the end, though...

Hm, but that refers to her family, and not necessarily to Tenshi herself; I'd kind've assumed that Tenshi was just born a celestial because both her parents already were. Can you think of a template that would be appropriate? Something that gives great strength, etc?

Edit:

A sword that can "exploit any opponent's weakness" would be best represented by applying the relevant version of the bane enchantment at will. This could be done with artificer infusions, or by sticking a Fiend of Possession inside it that switches enchantments on command.

Good man d b; making the sword Bane against whatever its enemy is is a pretty easy solution to that problem, though I think it might be better to just make it a property of the weapon itself, rather than saying that her celestial artifact sword is powered by an evil fiend :smalltongue:.

Prime32

2011-02-24, 01:06 PM

Hm, but that refers to her family, and not necessarily to Tenshi herself; I'd kind've assumed that Tenshi was just born a celestial because both her parents already were. Can you think of a template that would be appropriate? Something that gives great strength, etc?
A celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) human is a human who was born on the Upper Planes, so it would fit in flavour terms. There are plenty of ways to get great strength, such as the prodigy template from DMG2.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-25, 01:55 AM

A celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) human is a human who was born on the Upper Planes, so it would fit in flavour terms. There are plenty of ways to get great strength, such as the prodigy template from DMG2.

That's good thinking; it does make sense in terms of flavor... but I'm just not sure that a celestial human really does the concept of a deva justice; personally I'd feel a little better if she were at least a half-celestial, and prodigy just doesn't seem like enough for the stone shattering strength she's supposed to have. Then there's the matter of class, and while cleric kind've seems to fit, she really shouldn't have that much versatility given that pretty much all we've seen her do is create/use:
sword attacks, kicks/body-slams/other hand-to-hand stuff, earthquakes, rocks, and lasers of various shapes and sizes.

On that topic though, does anyone remember how she repairs the Hakurei Shrine in Reimu's ending? And just to add to her list of possible spells: Stone Shape, Spike Stones, maybe wall of stone, Move Earth, and Earthquake, but I still have no ideas for her lasers.

Aaaslan! Don't you have anything to say for this one?

Prime32

2011-02-25, 06:23 AM

prodigy just doesn't seem like enough for the stone shattering strength she's supposed to have.Stone-shattering = Stone Dragon maneuvers. The keystone is to get around that pesky "must be in contact with earth" restriction. Maybe even that dwarf Stone Dragon PrC. If she's a swordsage she can use both Stone Dragon and Desert Wind, though crusader would let her withstand more punishment.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd54/Prime32_temp/Touhou%20Power%20Cards/Maneuvers/Desert%20Wind/ManeuverDesertWind-BurningBrand.png
EDIT: Mineral warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)? I'd say saint, but you'd have to ignore the RP/alignment restrictions. :smalltongue:

By the DMG guidelines, an item that can infuse personal weapon augmentation when used would cost 3,000gp. Restricting it to celestials only makes that 2,100gp. If it must be activated as a standard action it's 1,890gp. Maybe attach a weapon augment crystal to ignore critical hit immunity.

EDIT:

Sword of Hisou
+4 flaming burst longsword - 72,000gp
Hideaway weapon - +2,000gp
Can use personal weapon augmentation on command (celestials only) - +1,890gp
Greater weapon crystal (combination demolition/truedeath, celestials only) +16,800gp

Price: 92,690gp

End result: A weapon which can grant itself the bane property on command, can inflict critical hits and sneak attacks on constructs and undead, deals +1d6 damage against constructs and undead, counts as a ghost touch weapon, and ignores DR/adamantine. As a swift action it can be shrunk to the size of a dagger, and is as easy to conceal as one.

Materials to look into (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19569550/Special_Materials_Index): Abyssal bloodiron, Pandemonic silver

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-25, 02:13 PM

Stone-shattering = Stone Dragon maneuvers. The keystone is to get around that pesky "must be in contact with earth" restriction. Maybe even that dwarf Stone Dragon PrC. If she's a swordsage she can use both Stone Dragon and Desert Wind, though crusader would let her withstand more punishment.

Somehow I knew you'd say that :smalltongue:; some of the Stone Dragon maneuvers are indeed very appropriate, but that doesn't change the fact that she has the strength to ravage earth and stone:
Additionally, it can be drawn from seemingly nowhere in battle, and is durable enough to channel the powerful strength of the celestials, allowing Tenshi to rupture the Earth or even cause earthquakes in the surrounding area.

That sentence is pretty important to my case, and one of the reasons I initially suggested just making her a powerful celestial creature like a solar, though SD maneuvers might handle some of her attacks better than spells (or spell-likes). Also the "must be in contact with earth" requirement is pretty appropriate for the most part, since some of Tenshi's attacks in Hisoutensoku require that her opponent be touching the ground anyway, though that brings up the subject of keystones; what does she use them for exactly, other than throwing at people and bludgeoning with them.

Your Sword of Hisou looks great, but I'd like to point out the reasons that I suggested Shrinking and a crystal of return: her sword can shapeshift so she can keep it anywhere on her body, she can draw it instantly, from seemingly anywhere, and it returns to her when she throws it. If we're combining weapon crystals already, then it probably wouldn't hurt too much to throw on the properties of Return as well.

Prime32

2011-02-25, 03:42 PM

Somehow I knew you'd say that :smalltongue:; some of the Stone Dragon maneuvers are indeed very appropriate, but that doesn't change the fact that she has the strength to ravage earth and stone:What difference does it make? Ravaging is ravaging. :smalltongue: Remilia has super strength too, but she doesn't smash boulders with it. What are Stone Dragon maneuvers meant to represent if not "the strength to ravage earth and stone"?

If you want Str, a dragonborn (mind) water orc with one level of barbarian has +8 Str and Con while raging. Stuff like mineral warrior can improve that.

Your Sword of Hisou looks great, but I'd like to point out the reasons that I suggested Shrinking and a crystal of return: her sword can shapeshift so she can keep it anywhere on her body, she can draw it instantly, from seemingly anywhere, and it returns to her when she throws it. If we're combining weapon crystals already, then it probably wouldn't hurt too much to throw on the properties of Return as well.The hideaway property would cover that more efficiently (+2,000gp, shrink/grow as a swift action, as easy to conceal as a dagger).

As for throwing, bloodstorm blade? There's also some gloves which grant any weapon you hold the throwing and returning properties - might as well save on the number of keystones she has to carry around. Finally, she could just be using lightning throw or whirling blade.

Jm2c

2011-02-25, 04:04 PM

The easy way out to me seems to be to make the sword out of adamantine. Extra hard, ignores most hardness on objects.

Jjeinn-tae

2011-02-25, 04:40 PM

I was looking at Trumpet Archon, they seem to have decent stats for Tenshi, +10 Strength, +6 Dex, +11 Con, Cast as 14th level clerics with Air Domain always allowed, and medium size (which was important to me). Replace the default trumpet Archon greatsword with our Artifact one and we're kind of close, main problems being that they're lawful aligned, and have +8 LA to match their 12HD, she'd need to be Gestalt for Swordsage.

There's probably a better fit somewhere, I'll keep checking what I have access to.

AslanCross

2011-02-25, 04:47 PM

Sorry I haven't been posting. Been extremely busy the past couple of weeks. I'll have to browse my books again so I can recommend something for Tenshi's lasers.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-26, 02:43 AM

If you want Str, a dragonborn (mind) water orc with one level of barbarian has +8 Str and Con while raging. Stuff like mineral warrior can improve that.

Yeeah, but Tenshi isn't a water orc, nor a barbarian, and certainly not a mineral warrior; she's a celestial. Hideaway is good, and adamantine or something similar (starmetal, aurorum etc) wouldn't hurt (because it's got to be "durable enough to channel the powerful strength of the celestials"), and adamantine definitely helps with destroying rock.

As far as class I'm still pretty uncertain; stone dragon stuff is good, and maybe a few of the other disciplines' maneuvers, but Swordsages or Crusaders can't control land and weather. For that I'd say spells are more appropriate, and since certain angels and things get free cleric casting, it makes some kind of gestalt more feasible. I tend to wonder about her wisdom though... but I guess maybe even the very wise might do brash things out of boredom, particularly if they live perfect, untroubled lives.

As for throwing her sword, she only does it in like one move that I can think of, so Bloodstorm Blade definitely seems like overkill. I don't know what lightning throw is, but whirling blade could be okay. Still though, there's the matter of her freely drawing it whenever she wants, which basically means Quick Draw or crystal of return (or maybe a few other things), and it returning to her. I'm loathe to make it the property of another magic item like a pair of gloves, since it seems to be either Tenshi or the sword itself that allows her to do those things with it (and there's no evidence I know of to suggest otherwise).

Prime32

2011-02-26, 08:11 AM

Yeeah, but Tenshi isn't a water orc, nor a barbarian, and certainly not a mineral warrior; she's a celestial.Why can't she be a celestial and a mineral warrior? :smallconfused: She's tough, strong, and she can smite people standing on earth.

I'm loathe to make it the property of another magic item like a pair of gloves, since it seems to be either Tenshi or the sword itself that allows her to do those things with it (and there's no evidence I know of to suggest otherwise).Having powers from a bunch of magic items is part of being a D&D character, and can make up much of their more exotic abilities - without such items it is not a complete build. Most characters in other mediums have nowhere near that many items. However, items can easily be refluffed as innate powers. Magic items would also allow adding weather control while keeping a martial base.

Let me put it this way - would you prefer to give Tenshi a bunch of items that grant powers she doesn't have?

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-26, 03:32 PM

Why can't she be a celestial and a mineral warrior? :smallconfused: She's tough, strong, and she can smite people standing on earth.

Having powers from a bunch of magic items is part of being a D&D character, and can make up much of their more exotic abilities - without such items it is not a complete build. Most characters in other mediums have nowhere near that many items. However, items can easily be refluffed as innate powers. Magic items would also allow adding weather control while keeping a martial base.

Let me put it this way - would you prefer to give Tenshi a bunch of items that grant powers she doesn't have?

Because mineral warriors are creatures made of stone, Tenshi has skin and hair; they also take penalties to all of their mental stats. It only makes (partial) sense in terms of abilities.

Items can't really be refluffed as innate powers, because what happens if they get destroyed or you take them off? Where'd your "innate" powers go? Most things that can be done with magic items can be done, and usually better, by actual class features or racial abilities. We pretty much know that everything Tenshi does is either a function of her magical sword or her own celestial abilities, so giving her extra equipment at all is unnecessary and probably inappropriate.

A quick play-through of SWR as Reimu reminded me that Tenshi needs to be able to pretty much flawlessly predict the weather; the survival skill would do that, with a lot of ranks, but there might be other ways too. Also there's that whole thing (the story of the game) about creating localized weather around people based on their personality... and that's a little complicated. But then again, it's a property of the Sword of Hisou (I think), so maybe we can just kind've hand-wave it as a unique artifact property of the sword.

Jm2c

2011-02-26, 04:37 PM

Because mineral warriors are creatures made of stone, Tenshi has skin and hair; they also take penalties to all of their mental stats. It only makes (partial) sense in terms of abilities.

Doesn't matter. The whole stone thing is just flavor. Prime statted Rumia as a Halfling Warlock 1. Rumia isn't a halfling, she's a Youkai. However, she's short, so he used Halfling as the race. The same principle applies here. Tenshi isn't a Stony Water Orc. Everyone will agree on that. However, the abilities match up - the stony bit is just flavor, and flavor can be changed at will, so long as it still matches the mechanics.
Seriously, if you want to keep the flavor of D&D, this won't work.

As for predicting the weather, yeah, just give her some Survival ranks, Cross-class if need be. She doesn't need many - a +5 modifier is enough to predict the weather one day in advance if you take 10.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-26, 06:28 PM

Tenshi isn't a Stony Water Orc. Everyone will agree on that. However, the abilities match up - the stony bit is just flavor, and flavor can be changed at will, so long as it still matches the mechanics.

Now imagine trying to be so arbitrary in an actual campaign, i.e. the characters encounter some orcs: "this orc is about seven feet tall, thick muscles ripple beneath its coarsely haired, grey-green skin, and it is garbed in stained, stinking leathers, crudely studded with iron rivets. That orc is a beautiful, fair skinned girl, strangely human looking but with long blue hair; she is petite in build and wears a long frilly dress.

And then what happens when the players try to determine what kind of creature they've encountered with a knowledge check? Something like: "okay, that was a pretty good roll. Your exceptional knowledge of creatures allows you to deduce that the young girl before you, who claims to be some sort of celestial, is in fact an orc, made of living rock and infused with elemental water somehow. She adjusts her hat and smiles innocently."

:smallsigh: I don't know... personally I would feel a whole lot more comfortable calling her an astral deva (which actually sounds like what she is), or anything really, that's even vaguely appropriate and doesn't sound so outrageous in the game world.

Edit: The idea is to stat them up accurately enough that we could actually throw them into a game, ideally, if we actually wanted to.

Jm2c

2011-02-27, 03:43 AM

And then what happens when the players try to determine what kind of creature they've encountered with a knowledge check? Something like: "okay, that was a pretty good roll. Your exceptional knowledge of creatures allows you to deduce that the young girl before you, who claims to be some sort of celestial, is in fact an orc, made of living rock and infused with elemental water somehow. She adjusts her hat and smiles innocently."

"Your knowledge check tells you that this is a so-called Celestial, member of a race of supposedly enlightened beings that live above the clouds on top of an impossibly high mountain, in a society that knows no hardship or strife. Celestials are said to be as strong and resilient as the stone of the mountain peak they reside on - possibly more, and they hold a link to the clouds that rain water upon the world below, but never on them."
Further Knowledge checks may reveal stuff about this specific Celestial and/or the Sword of Hisou, or specific racial abilities of the "Celestial" race (i.e. Water Orcs witht he Mineral Warrior template). If it helps, think of it as creating a homebrew race and stealing the ability modifiers and abilities from that race and template for the mechanics.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-27, 01:30 PM

Further Knowledge checks may reveal stuff about this specific Celestial and/or the Sword of Hisou, or specific racial abilities of the "Celestial" race (i.e. Water Orcs witht he Mineral Warrior template). If it helps, think of it as creating a homebrew race and stealing the ability modifiers and abilities from that race and template for the mechanics.

Specific racial abilities also include being Humanoid: Orc with the Earth subtype (Earth subtype actually kind've makes sense, but if they had that, they should probably have the air subtype as well) and -4 penalties on all mental stats, not to mention orcs' nocturnal penalties (being dazzled or whatever in daylight). So what we have are a race of perfect, enlightened people who live on the highest mountains above the clouds, but can't stand sunlight and are severely cognitively hampered. Hmm...

Celestial human is okay, except for the obvious reason of not giving big physical bonuses. Half-celestial is slightly better, kind've, with flight that doesn't depend on wings. If no one else does it, then soon, when I have time, I'm going to look through the fiend folio, BOED, and every monster manual, to see if there's anything better.

Prime32

2011-02-27, 01:42 PM

Specific racial abilities also include being Humanoid: Orc with the Earth subtype (Earth subtype actually kind've makes sense, but if they had that, they should probably have the air subtype as well) and -4 penalties on all mental stats, not to mention orcs' nocturnal penalties (being dazzled or whatever in daylight). So what we have are a race of perfect, enlightened people who live on the highest mountains above the clouds, but can't stand sunlight and are severely cognitively hampered. Hmm...Dragonborn template removes all racial abilities except stat adjustments and a few other things like Powerful Build. Otherworldly feat makes you an Outsider. And all celestials don't need to be mentally hampered, just Tenshi. :smalltongue:

Tenshi doesn't seem to have any particular connection to air beyond what's standard for a Touhou character.

I wouldn't worry too hard about flight unless the character in question has wings - there are plenty of ways to get it, and if you were running a Touhou campaign you'd probably get it for free.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-02-28, 02:03 PM

Dragonborn template removes all racial abilities except stat adjustments and a few other things like Powerful Build. Otherworldly feat makes you an Outsider. And all celestials don't need to be mentally hampered, just Tenshi. :smalltongue:

Tenshi doesn't seem to have any particular connection to air beyond what's standard for a Touhou character.

I wouldn't worry too hard about flight unless the character in question has wings - there are plenty of ways to get it, and if you were running a Touhou campaign you'd probably get it for free.

Well, she has a connection to air in that she has a connection to weather; she can manipulate and detect changes in weather, and she's extremely sensitive to changes in the air.

Anyway, I found a creature I kind of like; the Justice Archon. It's a pretty nondescript medium sized human-like creature, a rank and file warrior of Celestia. They're from MM4. They get +6 strength, +2 dex, +10 con, no change to int, +2 wis, and +4 cha. They also get very few unnecessary spell-like abilities. Seems almost perfect, if we're gestalting (they have 6 racial hit dice and a +5 LA), but I suggest others check it out first.

She could basically look something like CN justice archon gestalt cleric?(earth and weather(CD) domains) 9/swordsage 20, with max ranks in survival (some way to get it as a class skill would be very good), the Sword of Hisou, and a lot of keystones (whatever they are). She would have high strength and con, and maybe high wisdom (she is very perceptive, and there's no reason a wise person couldn't choose to do foolish things, right?).

Jjeinn-tae

2011-02-28, 03:52 PM

Well, she has a connection to air in that she has a connection to weather; she can manipulate and detect changes in weather, and she's extremely sensitive to changes in the air.

Anyway, I found a creature I kind of like; the Justice Archon. It's a pretty nondescript medium sized human-like creature, a rank and file warrior of Celestia. They're from MM4. They get +6 strength, +2 dex, +10 con, no change to int, +2 wis, and +4 cha. They also get very few unnecessary spell-like abilities. Seems almost perfect, if we're gestalting (they have 6 racial hit dice and a +5 LA), but I suggest others check it out first.

She could basically look something like CN justice archon gestalt cleric?(earth and weather(CD) domains) 9/swordsage 20, with max ranks in survival (some way to get it as a class skill would be very good), the Sword of Hisou, and a lot of keystones (whatever they are). She would have high strength and con, and maybe high wisdom (she is very perceptive, and there's no reason a wise person couldn't choose to do foolish things, right?).

There are many times a wise person could chose to do foolish things. In Tenshi's case, it probably means she has more charisma than wisdom, her force of personality drives her actions more than her perception.

I don't have MM4, but what you've said of the stats of Justice Archons seem to match up in my mind.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-03-01, 12:51 PM

Well, I felt like posting a very rough draft of what she might look like, so here goes: Tenshi Hinanawi (highly speculative and incomplete)

CN? Female Celestial (Justice Archon)
(Gestalt) Something/Swordsage 20
HD: 20d8+A lot
Attacks: Sword of Hisou +27/+22/+17 melee (1d8+12(+16 TH)/19-20/x2) or Unarmed Strike +23/+18/+13 melee (2d6+8)
STR: 26? DEX: ? CON: 20+? INT: ? WIS: 16+? CHA: ?

Maneuvers: A lot of Stone Dragon; Earthstrike Quake, maybe Wyrm's Flame, Hearing the Air, Dragon's Flame, maybe Time stands still, maybe Fan the flames...

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, ?????

Skills: Survival +a bunch

Possessions: Sword of Hisou, Keystones

This would be a lot easier using Mythweavers, so I guess I'll do that later. I still have no idea what a keystone would be, or how much damage they do, but I guess they pretty much have to be custom items. I also have few ideas in the way of lasers and her cones; I don't really think they're fire, but you never know, and I threw in some Desert Wind things anyway.

But yeah, I'm feeling newly daunted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfHlQnNIxY8

Question: Can a flying creature bull rush enemies vertically?

Edit: Ah, one of the DR stone dragon things could work for her super armor spellcard.

Shade Kerrin

2011-03-01, 04:38 PM

I also have few ideas in the way of lasers and her cones; I don't really think they're fire, but you never know, and I threw in some Desert Wind things anyway.

Well according to The Grimoire of Marisa, her wide-beam attack is actually a hyper-dense mass of her laser attacks. Probably entirely incidental, though.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-03-01, 06:53 PM

Well according to The Grimoire of Marisa, her wide-beam attack is actually a hyper-dense mass of her laser attacks. Probably entirely incidental, though.

Mmm, if anything I'd say that information just makes it more complicated :smallfrown:... My first instinct is to turn to the warlock, as they seem to be pretty useful for mimicking a lot of magic projectile attacks, and the cone attack becomes no problem. If hyper-dense means that it's more powerful, then it could possibly be empowered or maximized. Maybe, her standard multi-laser blast could be an eldritch cone, and her more powerful, spellcard, blasts (which have much less space between them) could be heightened/otherwise metamagicked eldritch cones...

But yeah, I don't know how well warlock works for her otherwise, invocations and all. The only earth-related invocations that jump to mind are earthen/stony grasp, though I'm sure there must be a few more that are at least somewhat appropriate. Rolling everything into a single, neat little package is difficult, even with gestalt...

Edit: But yeah, I hadn't thought of the Grimoire of Marisa; I'm sure it could be helpful for this.

Shade Kerrin

2011-03-01, 11:25 PM

Yeah, I've found both it and PMiSS to be quite useful in attempting to figure out how to best put the Touhou girls in to various systems, both providing some not-quite obvious information that becomes relevant when you are done with just shooting endless streams of projectiles at each other.

Side note, I wonder how difficult the 13 crowd will be to stat out.
Side side note, we should do the Catfish some time.

Scarlet-Devil

2011-03-02, 01:37 AM

Side note, I wonder how difficult the 13 crowd will be to stat out.
Side side note, we should do the Catfish some time.

Mm, I look forward to finding out :smallwink:, and yes we should, though I have no ideas off the top of my head, besides starting with an awakened fish with the titanic template (MM2 I think), if there are actually any fish stats around.

Drascin

2011-03-02, 09:05 AM

Because mineral warriors are creatures made of stone, Tenshi has skin and hair; they also take penalties to all of their mental stats. It only makes (partial) sense in terms of abilities.

To be honest, "Penalties to all mental abilities" does sound like Tenshi. She's not the brightest bulb, she has the common sense and empathy of a lemming, and is widely acknowledged as a disliked brat. She's also tough and strong and resistant. I'd give her the template, myself. Making her an orc is pushing it, but the template at least fits everything except the physical description.

Shade Kerrin

2011-03-02, 06:50 PM

Hehehehe...Double Scarlet

Sorry, had to say it.

NNescio

2011-03-04, 03:32 PM

Scarlet-Devil

2011-03-04, 03:50 PM

Kaenbyou Rin

Tibbit Focused Nekoromancer 3*/ Dread Nekoromancer 1†/Focused Nekoromancer 1/Ultimate Magus 5/True Nekoromancer 10‡

* Dropping Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration.
† Practiced Spellcaster is needed here.
‡ Uses Arcane Disciple (Death) to qualify and Southern Spellcaster to advance both sides.

Familiar: Raven

Also has the Surrogate Spell feat.

...:smallannoyed:

Mm, jokes aside, I suppose that probably works well enough, if the right spells are chosen (she would probably have a very limited spellbook). Basically she shapechanges into the form of a cat (without losing her powers), flies and fires magical bullets (obviously), animates ghosts, and transports corpses around. Hengeyokai would work about as well (maybe better thematically) for her race I think.

NNescio

2011-03-04, 04:00 PM

...:smallannoyed:

Mm, jokes aside, I suppose that probably works well enough, if the right spells are chosen (she would probably have a very limited spellbook). Basically she shapechanges into the form of a cat (without losing her powers), flies and fires magical bullets (obviously), animates ghosts, and transports corpses around. Hengeyokai would work about as well (maybe better thematically) for her race I think.

Sorry for the pun.

IIRC Hengeyoukai have a hybrid form (which Orin doesn't have), a limited number of transformations per day, and a +1 Level Adjustment.

Edit: Here's Aya:

Shameimaru Aya
Raptoran* Cleric 7†/Skypledged 10/Cleric 3

Deity: Philosophical Cause - Truth
Domains: Air, Travel

Feats: Improved Initiative, Travel Devotion, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Flight. (And maybe Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM Persistent Spell.)

Equipment: Maple Leaf Fan (Mace, Heavy), Tengu Geta x2 (Raptoran Foot Spike) Silver Pen (Holy Symbol, Silver), Pencils (Nightsticks), Investigative Journal (Masterwork Tool - Gather Information)

*DnD Tengu suck, appearance-wise. Raptoran is also needed to qualify for Skypledged, and they have pointy ears as well.
† Raptoran Racial Substitution Levels.

Lots and lots of air/wind manipulation goodies. Turning attempts are used to power Travel Devotion (Wind Sign "Tengu's Newspaper Deadline Day"). There are four major problems though:
1) The whole spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure/inflict spells bit. (anyone knows of a flaw or ACF that trades it away?)
2) No crow/raven familiar (can take one level of wizard to get one though.)
3) No projectile spamming. (hard to get unless one is a warlock or have a reserve feat. Or just lots of spellslots.)
4) No camera. (can probably be handled by a custom magic item.)

Prime32

2011-03-06, 11:48 AM

1) The whole spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure/inflict spells bit. (anyone knows of a flaw or ACF that trades it away?)There's an option somewhere to cast from one of your domains spontaneously instead. Check the Cleric Handbook.

Also:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9500.msg384514#msg384514
You can see my other thoughts further up the page. Illusory Dominance is hustle + Tornado Throw.

As a side-note, if I wanted to put an Aya expy in an Eberron game I'd probably go with a half-elf human with a cloak of flying and levels in that Mark of Travel PrC. There's probably dragonshard-powered cameras in some splat.

Shade Kerrin

2011-03-14, 07:43 PM

Well, time I had a crack at making one of these, so here we go

Lyrica, Lunasa & Merlin Prismriver:

N? Female Ghost(Ghostwalk Version, Human base)
Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Eidoloncer 5+
HD: 16d6+Con

STR: - DEX: ? CON: ? INT: ? WIS: ? CHA: High

Spells: Such items as Amplify, Sonic Burst, Cacophonic Burst. Lunasa specifically has Dirge, Merlin has Fugue(change the focus needed) and Lyrica has more spells that focus on the side effect of sound rather than the mental effect.

Feats: 1 -Melodic Casting, H - Clap of Thunder, 3 - Skill focus:Perform(Violin / Trumpet / Keyboard), LT - Captivating Melody 6 - ?? - Metamagic, 9 - Cooperative Spell, E1 - Ghost Hand, 12 - Poltergeist Hand, 15 - Control Visage, E5 - Solid Visage

Skills: Perform(Violin / Trumpet / Keyboard), Listen, other stuff.

Possessions: Instruments (don't know what to do with them yet)

Notes:
I'm following similar logic to Akyu, in that while they aren't strictly speaking ghosts, there isn't really a better way to handle them.
Using 3.0 material here, but I've always been rather partial to the way Ghostwalk handles ghosts.
Lunasa's presence supposedly causes a depressing effect, while Merlin's causes the opposite. The first was easy, but I couldn't really find anything suitable for Merlin.
They would probably have 9 or 10 levels in Eidoloncer, since at 10 they are at risk of passing on, which they received warning of from Shikieiki

Prime32

2011-03-14, 08:19 PM

Not familiar with Ghostwalk, but shouldn't they have Cooperative Spell?

Shade Kerrin

2011-03-14, 08:29 PM

I'd forgotten about that one, I'll add it in

Tsuzurao

2011-03-27, 03:11 PM

Sorry for the pun.

IIRC Hengeyoukai have a hybrid form (which Orin doesn't have), a limited number of transformations per day, and a +1 Level Adjustment.

The other restrictions still apply, but Dragon Magazine #318 covers updating Oriental Adventures to 3.5e. Among the updated details, Hengeyokai no longer have Level Adjustment.

Perhaps you could implement a homebrew flaw to lock out the hybrid form? *Shrugs*

As for other things I've seen in this thread... Cirno's Intelligence. What you did there, I see it.

I don't have any other suggestions for character builds at the moment.

Jjeinn-tae

2011-04-05, 03:52 PM

The other restrictions still apply, but Dragon Magazine #318 covers updating Oriental Adventures to 3.5e. Among the updated details, Hengeyokai no longer have Level Adjustment.

Perhaps you could implement a homebrew flaw to lock out the hybrid form? *Shrugs*

As for other things I've seen in this thread... Cirno's Intelligence. What you did there, I see it.

Isn't Rin's normal form hybrid kind of, I mean she has cat ears in addition to normal ears, could of sworn she had a tail too, but I guess not. The more I think on this the more it falls apart I guess...

She could just not use it out of preference, maybe she doesn't want to be a human-sized fur covered cat-girl... or maybe it's the tail, those are annoying probably...

On Cirno, really I think she could probably be higher than that without going against what the games show, ZUN seemed to smarten her up a bit, she just doesn't think before doing something. At least she's a genius among fairies. :smallbiggrin:

Prime32

2011-04-05, 03:56 PM

As for other things I've seen in this thread... Cirno's Intelligence. What you did there, I see it.

On Cirno, really I think she could probably be higher than that without going against what the games show, ZUN seemed to smarten her up a bit, she just doesn't think before doing something. At least she's a genius among fairies. :smallbiggrin:
Wis 9 then?

NNescio

2011-04-05, 04:07 PM

...On Cirno, really I think she could probably be higher than that without going against what the games show, ZUN seemed to smarten her up a bit, she just doesn't think before doing something. At least she's a genius among fairies. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know, she seems less smart than a normal human, or at least this is the impression I've got from Hisoutensoku, Sangetsusei, and FW. Int 9 (slightly lower than a 10) seems really appropriate.

Not to mention that the Three Fairies are probably smarter than Cirno, especially Star Sapphire (who probably has an INT of 12).

Jjeinn-tae

2011-04-05, 04:29 PM

Shade Kerrin

2011-04-05, 05:03 PM

To add to that, As I remember she was one of only a couple of characters to seriously think about what Shiki had lectured her on. Her problem is recklessness, not intelligence.

NNescio

2011-04-05, 05:31 PM

Ok, here's my special ability, the ability to look into anything too deeply

Yes, she is definitely below average of the modern day earth-human, but that can't really be the standard for the DnD system, otherwise everyone in the average DnD world would have to be like 6. Basic knowledge among us is the existence of molecules, atoms and cells, which even the brightest of the best in the average DnD setting seem oblivious to. Which is odd, since in real life cells were discovered with a magnifying glass. *shrug* I could go on in more detail here, but I'll spare you, and I'll just assume that 10 and 11 are the average human from your world.

Ok, Touhou takes place in relatively modern times, but Cirno lives in Gensoukyou, which is shown to in general be relatively backwards. With magic around, there isn't much use for science, and the advanced peoples are rather small communities. The humans there are probably similar to the average DnD community, except replace the odd European assumptions of how the world works with odd Japanese ones.

Cirno can read which is not universal here (Mystia) and she knows fractions which seems to be among the highest of theoretical mathematics of uneducated society in a world like that. No that's still not amazing, but I think it is past nine, I'd put her at 10.

Though yeah, she's not as smart as the other named fairies, but the normal ones are like bugs to a bug zapper with Reimu's bullets... so at least that's something.

And if there's any doubt, this was not meant to be hostile.

Considering that most humans live in a single settlement (which, despite its name, is actually more like a town or small city), and that there's a school ran by the local friendly neighbourhood werewolf hakutaku, I'll say that most humans are literate. And considering that said school is a terakoya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terakoya) ("temple school"), where students are taught history, geography, and the use of the abacus, I think it's safe to say that most of them have decent knowledge in Mathematics.

Aya also runs a newspaper service, and this practice has been shown to been common among other tengu as well, so literacy is probably also the norm among youkai.

Oh, and the Tengu have cameras and printing presses.

And speaking about the Youkai Mountain, there's a significant population of crazy-tech-wielding kappa, who has stuff like Optic Camo, which is far beyond the tech level that we have. Not to mention that the Moriya Shrine has managed to successfully induce a cold fusion reaction. Which, I might say, is something that our scientists fail to do.

I think you are underestimating Gensoukyou's tech level.

As for Mystia, even if she can't read (note that Aya's article isn't particularly conclusive), she runs a fairly popular food stall and a rather successful con operation, so I'll say that she's still more intelligent than Cirno.

Regardless, I wouldn't say that lack of knowledge is an indicator of low intelligence. Even if the basic DnD world is ran off molecules, atoms, protons, quarks, and what have you (instead of say, elemental particles), ignorance merely implies a lack of certain knowledge skills. Aristotle, for example, believed that matter is made out of the Five Elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Aether), that force has to be continually exerted for an object to remain in motion, and was ignorant of cellular theory. Would you call him an idiot with an INT of 6, even when compared with an average modern-day person? I think not.

As for illiteracy, I'll just point out that it's possible to have an 18 Int illiterate barbarian (or any person with the illiterate trait) and leave it at that.

On the flip side, I also believe that Okuu has low Int (along with terminally low Wisdom), despite her unparalleled knowledge in nuclear physics. She just has max ranks in Knowledge (Nuclear Physics) and Profession (Nuclear Engineer) after all, which more than make up for her low Int. And a pact of sorts with the Gensoukyou's version of Naberius.

Going back to Cirno, PMiSS implies that she's less intelligent than an average human:

If Cirno by any chance should attack, just start to talk calmly about anything, and when she shows interest it is a good time to ask her a riddle.

When you do that, she will start to think of the answer, and that is a good opportunity to flee.

No matter how simple the question, she can certainly not answer it.

(Oh and cells were 'discovered' by Robert Hooke, and he used a compound microscope to do so.)

Jjeinn-tae

2011-04-05, 05:51 PM

Considering that most humans live in a single settlement (which, despite its name, is actually more like a town or small city), and that there's a school ran by the local friendly neighbourhood werewolf hakutaku, I'll say that most humans are literate. And considering that said school is a terakoya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terakoya) ("temple school"), where students are taught history, geography, and the use of the abacus, I think it's safe to say that most of them know fractions as well.

Aya also runs a newspaper service, and this practice has been shown to been common among other tengu as well, so literacy is probably also the norm among youkai.

Oh, and the Tengu have cameras and printing presses.

And speaking about the Youkai Mountain, there's a significant population of crazy-tech-wielding kappa, who has stuff like Optic Camo, which is far beyond the tech level that we have. Not to mention that the Moriya Shrine has managed to successfully induce a cold fusion reaction. Which, I might say, is something that our scientists fail to do.

I think you are underestimating Gensoukyou's tech level.

As for Mystia, even if she can't read (note that Aya's article isn't particularly conclusive), she runs a fairly popular food stall and a rather successful con operation, so I'll say that she's still more intelligent than Cirno.

Regardless, I wouldn't say that lack of knowledge is an indicator of low intelligence. Even if the basic DnD world is run off molecules, atoms, protons, quarks, and what have you (instead of say, elemental particles), ignorance merely imply a lack of certain knowledge skills. Aristotle, for example, believed that matter is made out of the Five Elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Aether), and that force has to be continually exerted for an object to remain in motion, and was ignorant of cellular theory. Would you call him an idiot with an INT of 6, even when compared with an average modern-day person? I think not.

On the flip side, I also believe that Okuu has low Int (along with terminally low Wisdom), despite her unparalleled knowledge in nuclear physics. She just has max ranks in Knowledge (Nuclear Physics) and Profession (Nuclear Engineer) after all, which more than make up for her low Int. She also has a pact of sorts with the Gensoukyou's version of Naberius.

Hmm good points all around, though perhaps I didn't really voice my main one that well. Dealing with Aristotle, were he to come across those "discoveries" now, I would say he'd be low on the list, I was trying (and failing :smalltongue:) to say that intelligence is more a product of times, those were on the cutting edge then and were genius even though it was wrong. Were he in modern times he'd probably have made some different discovery with the different opportunities and such. Though this is just my opinion on what the DnD intelligence means, real life I wouldn't call Aristotle unintelligent for other reasons.

I did acknowledge that there is high technology, it's just not in human hands, the Kappa keep their technology to themselves, as do every other group in Gensoukyou, I'd say Eirin is quite technological as well, despite it being in chemistry.

Abaci though is kind of an interesting though, that is a relatively old instrument, I personally don't like using them since my hands are shaky, but they are relatively intuitive to use. Though now you've got me thinking of what possible use Cirno could have for an abacus... figuring out how many frogs she's successfully frozen? :smalltongue:

Don't know enough on Okuu to really comment, though she's definitely what would be called a savant then.

Edit: Though it does appear you have won there, if she can't answer questions we should give her int - :smalltongue: that's pretty bad.

On Hooke, though my source is a textbook, he supposedly got the idea to investigate deeper when looking at plants with a magnifying glass. He proved cells' existence with a microscope. I suppose proof is better than theory though. :smalltongue:

NNescio

2011-04-05, 06:03 PM

Hmm good points all around, though perhaps I didn't really voice my main one that well. Dealing with Aristotle, were he to come across those "discoveries" now, I would say he'd be low on the list, I was trying (and failing :smalltongue:) to say that intelligence is more a product of times, those were on the cutting edge then and were genius even though it was wrong. Were he in modern times he'd probably have made some different discovery with the different opportunities and such. Though this is just my opinion on what the DnD intelligence means, real life I wouldn't call Aristotle unintelligent for other reasons.

I did acknowledge that there is high technology, it's just not in human hands, the Kappa keep their technology to themselves, as do every other group in Gensoukyou, I'd say Eirin is quite technological as well, despite it being in chemistry.

Abaci though is kind of an interesting though, that is a relatively old instrument, I personally don't like using them since my hands are shaky, but they are relatively intuitive to use. Though now you've got me thinking of what possible use Cirno could have for an abacus... figuring out how many frogs she's successfully frozen? :smalltongue:

Don't know enough on Okuu to really comment, though she's definitely what would be called a savant then.

Personally, I believe that Intelligence is a measure of one's ability to learn and reason, and not how learned or knowledgeable a person is. ('though both often come hand in hand, and most DnD characters with high Int often also have many ranks in Knowledge skills.)

It should be mostly invariant with respect to one's surroundings, or what that is actually true. Or, in other words, if you planar dump an intelligent wizard into our modern world where magic no longer works, he's still intelligent despite having most of his Knowledge(Arcana) and Knowledge(Nature) ranks being rendered erroneous, while remaining ignorant of most of our scientific discoveries. Similarly, if you dump an intelligent physicist into a typical DnD world, he's still intelligent despite knowing nothing about magic and having his Knowledge(Physics) ranks rendered mostly obsolete.

The SRD also appears to confirm my assumptions:

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Edit: Though it does appear you have won there, if she can't answer questions we should give her int - :smalltongue: that's pretty bad.

On Hooke, though my source is a textbook, he supposedly got the idea to investigate deeper when looking at plants with a magnifying glass. He proved cells' existence with a microscope. I suppose proof is better than theory though. :smalltongue:
I apologize if my tone was began to sound belligerent.

The "No matter how simple the question, she can certainly not answer it." part is probably a mild exaggeration. Bear in mind that PMiSS is 'written' from Akyuu's point of view, and is intended to be read by 'in-universe' humans, so some parts shouldn't be taken too literally.

Jjeinn-tae

2011-04-05, 06:10 PM

NNescio

2011-04-05, 06:13 PM

Hmm, ok, you got me there, guess my view of DnD intelligence is skewed by my own personally views on the subject.

Though I would disagree that knowledge(physics) would be useful in the average DnD world. Advance the technology level a bit, might get the wizards to try and kill you off for encroaching on their territory, but it would seem the thing to do... Think about how easy it would be to make a fission reactor with the materials in the standard DnD setting...

Man, I need to play a character like that now... :smallbiggrin:

Play an artificer. Magitech galore.

Call her Nitori while you are at it.

Incidentally, Reimu just True Creation'ed a gigantic block of Palladium alloy for Sanae without knowing how valuable it is (or how it's supposed to function), so I guess your physicist can probably get a wizard to make a block of Uranium for him as well.

Assuming he doesn't just go Artificer and make it himself.

Or if you want to go all the way through, anti-osmium. :smallcool:

Jjeinn-tae

2011-04-05, 06:23 PM

Speaking of... I think Nitori will probably be a great "next" project here. Probably should finish Rin though if there's anything left, I've been out for a while.

Edit: Or... I need to buy Tome of Battle now, I have awesome inspiration for Suika.

NNescio

2011-04-09, 07:29 AM

Anyone knows how do Dvati interact with acquired templates? Can those be applied selectively to only one of the twins' bodies?

On a related note (inherited-template-wise), if a Dvati has the Fetch (Dragon #313) inherited template, can one of the bodies astrally project itself while the other remains corporeal?

You can see where this is going... (Fetches are half-ghosts.)

Jjeinn-tae

2011-04-09, 05:53 PM

Youmu!

Dvati were rather poorly translated to 3.5 and in general require a bunch of DM rulings for them to work at all, and with the original creator of them speaking out about them, there's pretty much at least two official rulings on every given subject.

From what I gather, templates were not spoken on fully in length on them. With whoever translated them into 3.5's style, I'm guessing that inherited are required to be the same. Though I don't think any argument can really be made that they need the same inherited.

I'll do some digging tonight.

Shade Kerrin

2011-04-10, 05:19 PM

Youmu's always such an annoyance to replicate. Completely anecdotal here, but I once made a half-ghost for M&M...Cost me 50pts to make the ghost(I think I managed to trim 10 off later, though)

Shade Kerrin

2011-04-20, 05:31 PM

Well, it's far too early to call this necromancy, but the thread seems to have died a little, so lets add a little bit of Yoshika to the mix.

So far, I'm thinking a cleric with Gluttony and Hunger domains. Gluttony will give Death Knell to let her heal by taking out dying creatures, while hunger gives a bite and lets her convert others to undead(if she doesn't get it already). Both also give her the ability to devour a medium sized creature in one go.
As far as race, all I can say is something undead, preferably something with a bite attack.

On spells, we should see if we can get the Wu Jen spells Rain of Needles, Rain of Spines and Storm of Needles on to her list.

Beyond that, I'm out. Don't normally work with clerics, necromancy or undead as a player.

NNescio

2011-04-20, 07:05 PM

Prime32

2011-04-20, 07:46 PM

Youmu's always such an annoyance to replicate. Completely anecdotal here, but I once made a half-ghost for M&M...Cost me 50pts to make the ghost(I think I managed to trim 10 off later, though)Youmu is easy. Eternal blade covers the ghost half and the sword skills, and can be entered by a half-elf (arguably the most half-baked race in Core at that).

Shade Kerrin

2011-04-20, 08:56 PM

Youmu is easy. Eternal blade covers the ghost half and the sword skills, and can be entered by a half-elf (arguably the most half-baked race in Core at that).

So another ToB focussed on Diamond Mind, then? Curse the versatility of the book of 9 swords!

Jm2c

2011-04-21, 03:53 AM

Youmu's always such an annoyance to replicate. Completely anecdotal here, but I once made a half-ghost for M&M...Cost me 50pts to make the ghost(I think I managed to trim 10 off later, though)

How did you do the ghost, out of curiosity? I'd personally do it with Sidekick, which, assuming PL 10, costs 25 points, assuming I want the ghost to have the same point total as Youmu afterwards (and 125 points going towards abilities on a PL 10 does sound "half-baked" :smalltongue:). Of course, that's assuming PC point allocation.

And yeah, Crusader 10/Eternal Blade 10 fits Youmu perfectly. She's likely to be more focused on Devoted Spirit, but Diamond Mind does complement nicely. Island in Time and Time stands Still, among some other maneuvers like Bounding Assault, work very well to emulate her speed.

Shade Kerrin

2011-04-26, 07:00 PM

Alright, then...let's see if I can find it....

Sidekick would have been cheapest on my side, but of course I wanted to garuntee personal control over it. Thus, I went as follows(note that I took as many price-cuts as possible):

M&M half-ghost

Duplication 2:1
Duration:Permanent(0 change)
+1:Heroic
-1:Real
-1:Feedback
1:1 - 10ranks = 10
PFeat: Mental Link, Innate - 2
Total:12

Alternate Form 5:1
Affects others(only), Linked(Simultaneous only) and Duration(Permanent) for 0 costchange
-1:Limited(Only to Duplicate)
Ghost: Concealment, Immunity, Insubstantial 4
Concealment: 2:1 Visual(2 ranks), Partial(-1), 1:1 final = 2
Immunity: 1:1 Starvation and Thirst, Suffocation, final = 3
Insubstantial 5:1 Incorporeal(4), final = 20

4:1 - 5ranks = 20
PFeat:Innate - 1
Total: 21

Regeneration 1:1 - Ressurection type
+1: Affects Others(For Ghost)
-1:Limited(Only for Ghost Death)
1:1 - 1rank = 1
PFeat: Innate - 1
Total: 2

Full Total:35pts

So what we get here is a second body that 'kills' me if destroyed, but only for 1 week. If I were able to spare the points at the time, I would apply progression to bring that figure down a bit. I also don't have to worry about it needing to eat or breathe, since it's me.

Mima may stand as my favorite right now, but nothing is as fun as a half-ghost