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pinballchico
2010-12-25, 03:41 AM
greets......I'm currently a lvl 2 wizard about to hit lvl 3......I am aware that going straight wiz can be super powerfull.....but in my heart I need to be capable of front line combat.

lvl 3 will be wiz so I hit 2nd lvl spells....but after that I need to start working on the brute side of things...

I'm focused and specialized in conjuration with evoch enchant and necro banned...........the dm has alot of homebrew rules that I'll let him post here....

so I'm looking for ideas of how to optimize this character... first game I've played since the 2.0 days.....we're playing 3.5......any suggestions are more than welcome....thanx

Endarire
2010-12-25, 03:49 AM
I'm partial to a Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon) Trancer build.

Also, see Brilliant Gameologists Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0) for details. There's even a Gish Handbook, but I advise against it.

Godskook
2010-12-25, 05:17 AM
@PChico, you do realize that this thread might not see much activity over the holidays, right?

------------------------

Heya, guys. I'm his DM. If you've read the campaign journal, this is Zach.

To get his build in a more standard format:

FS Conjurer 2

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 9

Feats:
-Practiced Spellcaster(wizard)
-Combat Casting
-Improved Initiative(UA variant)

ACFs:
Focused Specialist
Abrupt Jaunt
Fighter feats

Notes: I recommended Practiced Spellcaster on the knowledge that he'd definitely take it, regardless of his build choice. Combat casting was more iffy, but I figured Abjurant Champion was a *VERY* likely prestige class for him. His point-buy can be improved(he has 13 point-buy till he hits the cap for level 2). His racial stat adjustments are +2 Int, -1 Dex, -1 Wis.

Houserules:

1.No flaws, but 10 available feats for purchase via xp. First is 1000xp, second is 2000xp, and so on.

2.Point-buy may be raised mid-game via xp. Cap is 30+ECL, and cost per point is current point-buy squared.

3.You may maximize a HD by spending one fourth the xp required to earn that level(So your 6th level HD would cost 1500xp to maximize after the fact). This must be done for the earliest HD first.

4.Test of Spite is a "Pirate's code" for my game. Anything that makes the list(banned or not) is looked at before being approved. I tend to be more permissive than the ToS, but still.

5.Polymorph works via Rich's rules in the gaming sub-section.

6.So does diplomacy.

7.PCs are all human, but with a racial stat bonus, temp HP, temp save increase, and temp BAB increase. By the time they hit level 4, the temp stuff will be gone.

8.Metamagic, with a very short list of exceptions, requires you to be able to cast the metamagic'd spell without reducers before you can use reducers with it. Thus, persistent shield isn't possible before level 13 for a pure-class wizard. Current exceptions: MM-rods, sudden feats, Wu-Jen spell secrets.

9.Fractional BAB and Saves.

10.Skill points are granted retroactively.

11.Not that it matters, but Abler Learner may be purchased at a later level.

Runestar
2010-12-25, 05:50 AM
His stats don't really lend themselves well to "gishing". I suppose he could try out the various polymorph spells (PHB2, complete mage, spell compendium and dragon magic) which transform you into a specific creature. But that only comes at 5th lv?

What's the use of practiced spellcaster again? Even if there is a bard in the party, it won't pay off until at least 9th lv.

FelixG
2010-12-25, 05:58 AM
I am away from my books, but what level is body of war? SPell compendium spell, turns you into a warforged titan (IIRC) and will really let you ruin a few days in the front lines of combat!

Not exactly Gish but its an option for a caster :smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2010-12-25, 06:06 AM
Do note houserule #2, guys.

Caphi
2010-12-25, 04:01 PM
Let me be brutally honest. Your character's physique is really not suited for a swordfight.

I'd spend xp on raising that strength and constitution to at least 14 each, a feat which in itself will cost about 2791 xp, but you can put that off until level 3 or so. Abjurant Champion is a good idea for prestiging, and so is Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), which I have a soft spot in my heart for; it does lose caster levels, but like Abjurant Champion, it has good martial abilities and some class features that help keep you out of trouble.

For feats, I think you should put some of those skill points into Knowledge skills and take Knowledge Devotion, which will put that wizard Intelligence to work making up for your currently mediocre Strength score. It's free to use and gives you a bonus to attack and damage so you can catch up to the boys with high Strength.

Thespianus
2010-12-25, 04:11 PM
I'd spend xp on raising that strength and constitution to at least 14 each, a feat which in itself will cost about 2791 xp, but you can put that off until level 3 or so. Abjurant Champion is a good idea for prestiging, and so is Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), which I have a soft spot in my heart for; it does lose caster levels, but like Abjurant Champion, it has good martial abilities and some class features that help keep you out of trouble.

WIth Combat Casting already in place, Abjurant Champion is a no-brainer. Do note that you need to be proficient with at least 1 martial weapon, AND you need a BAB of +5. This means pretty slow going if you go straight Wizard, as you won't be able to qualify until level 9 or so. The Swiftblade is fine too, but you need to be at least level 6 to get into that ( You need Haste, a 3rd level spell, for one full level before going into Swiftblade.), and it requires both Dodge and Mobility to get intoo. It's tough, man, gishing with a straight Wizard as a base is tough.

Godskook
2010-12-25, 04:14 PM
It's tough, man, gishing with a straight Wizard as a base is tough.

Pretty sure he's willing to multiclass(Note: No penalty for that in my game, forgot to mention)

Runestar
2010-12-25, 08:28 PM
I seem to recall a 1-lv spellcasting prc dip which grants martial weapon prof, which can in turn be used to springboard into eldritch knight and subsequently abjurant champion. Exemplar?

olentu
2010-12-25, 08:30 PM
I seem to recall a 1-lv spellcasting prc dip which grants martial weapon prof, which can in turn be used to springboard into eldritch knight and subsequently abjurant champion. Exemplar?

I think dragonslayer or something like that.

Coidzor
2010-12-25, 09:59 PM
I am away from my books, but what level is body of war? SPell compendium spell, turns you into a warforged titan (IIRC) and will really let you ruin a few days in the front lines of combat!

It's a 7th level sorcerer/wizard spell.

There's Dragonslayer from Draconomicon to grant armor and weapon proficiencies in order to qualify for Abjurant Champion and Spellsword, yeah. that's +7 spellcasting, +7 BAB between those three classes.

Unfortunately Dragonslayer has similar BAB requirements to Abjurant Champion, so it'd be something like Wizard 10/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 3/Spellsword 1 for optimized casting. Only gets +15 BAB and Wizard 19 casting though.

So you'd be better off spending a feat on martial weapon proficiency, especially if it could be retrained, and going Wizard 6/Swiftblade3(+X)Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight Y... That'd give 17 BAB, 18 casting. With another +1 BAB, +1 CL class to fill in the last level, one could replace Eldritch Knight with 1 level in that and take Swiftblade to 6. Which would also give 17 BAB, 18 casting, but nicer abilities.

If Evil or CE are on the table as alignments, Thrall of Orcus 1(BOVD), Thrall of Demogorgon 1(BOVD), and Thrall of Eltab 1(Champions of Ruin) would also work as a 1 level dip. Though they all require 2 feats to enter, or 3 in the case of Thrall of Eltab. I believe Orcus gets the most abilities at level one. Funny how Good doesn't have any counterpoint to the gishing avenues of Evil though, as I found when I was looking through Champions of Valor and BoED.

Really, I'd recommend against Practiced Spellcaster, or at least argue for retraining it after beginning to gish properly, since it's not doing anything for him right now and the benefit will be minor unless he goes more fighter than wizard in his base class makeup before PrCing or likes Swiftblade, enough to sacrifice 8th level spells for all 10 levels of it if he gets in with anything other than pure wizard.

Another possibility, if, since there are no other races available to have been chosen in the first place, is to see if racial restrictions on PrCs can get relaxed... Bladesinger in particular is a good 1 level gish dip that's elf/half-elf only normally... well, if you grab the right Bladesinger... there's like 3, and 2 of which are bad even on the first level.

A potentially useful link for PrCs to think about. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871278/1_BAB_and_1_Caster_Level)

Godskook
2010-12-25, 10:59 PM
@Coidzor, retraining on the level you're talking about is not going to be allowed. He's looking for a practical optimization build, not a theoretical optimization build.

term1nally s1ck
2010-12-25, 11:12 PM
I seem to recall a 1-lv spellcasting prc dip which grants martial weapon prof, which can in turn be used to springboard into eldritch knight and subsequently abjurant champion. Exemplar?

IIRC, it's Ruathar, the Elf-friend PrC. AFB, so might be wrong.

olentu
2010-12-25, 11:45 PM
IIRC, it's Ruathar, the Elf-friend PrC. AFB, so might be wrong.

Unfortunately one only gains martial weapon proficiency in longsword, rapier, longbow, or shortbow from the class.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-26, 12:19 AM
Considering the ability to churn XP into feats and more PB, I'd say go Wizard 4/Crusader 1 (using the two feats from Cityscape for early entry)/Jade Phoenix Mage X/Abjurant Champion 5/JPM 10-X.

Feats should go to Power Attack, Extend Spell, and Knowledge Devotion, and whatever else floats your boat. It's not the best use of stats and/or feats, but I'm personally a fan of grabbing a two-handed weapon to use for Shadow Blade and arcane strike, but that means ignoring power attack and blowing through more spells.

Coidzor
2010-12-26, 12:28 AM
IIRC, it's Ruathar, the Elf-friend PrC. AFB, so might be wrong.

Heh, and here I thought Ruathar was a 2/3 spell casting and lost a caster level on the first level.

But, yeah, it works just fine for Swiftblade and Abjurant Champion's single martial weapon proficiency, as it grants MWP as a bonus feat.

Wizard 5/Ruathar1/SwiftbladeX as the entry works with fractional BAB.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 02:08 PM
Let's see if I can come up with a few suggestions:

Build 1:

Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/JPM +7

You get:
CL 17
BAB 17
Initiator level 15

Build 2:

Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Knight Phantom 9/Abjurant Champion 5

You get:
CL 18
BAB 18
Light armor casting (or medium + mithral)

Build 3:

Wizard 4/Fighter 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

You get:
CL 18
BAB 16
-10% ASF
Turn Undead

Build 4:

Wizard 4/Monk 1/Enlightened Fist 9/Dragon Slayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5

You get:
CL 17
BAB 14
Int to AC(via Carmendine Monk)
Effective Monk level 10
AC from spells stack with monk's bonus.


Hm....personally, I guess I'm a bit stuck on Abjurant Champion as a gish class. Probably cause its hard to pass up, but do note that both build 1 and 2 can work without it(say, by using sacred exorcist or another prestige class

super dark33
2010-12-26, 02:09 PM
May i ask what is a 'gish'?

Urpriest
2010-12-26, 02:17 PM
May i ask what is a 'gish'?

A spellcaster who fights with weapons. Or alternatively, a weapon-user who casts spells.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 02:19 PM
May i ask what is a 'gish'?

The vague idea is "mixes martial prowess and arcane might", and the 'gold' standard, from what I understand, is BAB 16 and CL 17, for 9ths and full iteratives. Although monk-gish and rogue-gish(typically called an "arcane rogue") would allow for slightly different standards, I'm sure.

pinballchico
2010-12-27, 03:16 AM
thanks all for the help....hopefully within the week I'll have acces to all the books..and be able to think it over more carefully....ie; figure out what school haste is in...to see if swiftblade is possible....and looking deeply into all the ideas here...to hopefully come up with my own crazy concoction...wich I will float here before taking.(as slowly as us pcs force godskook to move...it will be a bit untill I have to be sure).....thanks again and keep the ideas coming (definetly willing to multiclass for a lvl before prestige classing)[email protected] : we've talked alot about alighnment out of game..,but its yet to come up in game......does my gem allow me evil opportunities...or negate good ones..and can I look in to race specific classes?...things I need to know whilst considering what path to take.

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 03:19 AM
Haste is Transmutation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) You can figure that bit out using the internet and the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) Heck, you need the internet to view Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)at all.

pinballchico
2010-12-27, 04:50 AM
yeah......I've been real computerless for a while....doing all this via ps3...the browser is so so..and some sites are worthless...not worth my time to search..and then hope the site works(I'm amazed this one does) but I should have the necessary components to get my comp. up and running soon

Godskook
2010-12-27, 08:04 PM
Your gem is "Dark" not "Evil", so it does not explicitly change or restrict your alignment in anyway. Influences, here and there, maybe, but nothing concrete. You're fully capable of being a paladin, despite hearing you swear that LG is not your alignment.

As for race specific prestige classes, nothing mentioned here has that qualification. Are you referring to the class that Bazrid was using? That'd probably carry the standard dwarf-only restriction, though if you were determined enough, you could get into it anyway(Read: Costs 3 caster levels minimum and heavy armor proficiency, which probably means another dip, or 3 feats)

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 08:15 PM
Bladesinger is an elf-only gish PrC, and ended up getting wiped from my initial post in the process of clearing some stream-of-consciousness out of it. And was mentioned in the +1 BAB, +1 CL thread.

Additionally, Loredelver is a 3 level Illumian PrC that advances casting 2/3 for 3 levels that grants evasion and bardic knowledge, allowing one to get into Fochlucan lyrist with a divine casting level and druidic. (Has the caveat of needing some method of trapfinding (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff&post_num=3#338421590)to enter as well)

As well, Runesmith, I believe is the name anyway, is a Dwarf-only PrC that lets one substitute requiring a material component for the somatic components of spells, allowing a wizard to cast in full plate and ignore ASF without a complicated system of armor materials, templates, underlays, and properties.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 08:19 PM
As well, Runesmith, I believe is the name anyway, is a Dwarf-only PrC that lets one substitute requiring a material component for the somatic components of spells, allowing a wizard to cast in full plate and ignore ASF without a complicated system of armor materials, templates, underlays, and properties.

Yep, that's the prestige class of the NPC my party calls the "pimped-out dwarf-wizard dude"

(Yes, to his face)

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 08:33 PM
...Now I'm stuck contemplating what pimping would mean to dwarven society and furthermore, in dwarven society.

My head kinda hurts now. :smallconfused: