Doctor who cristmas special HERE BE SPOILERS

[Evil DM Mark3]

My thoughts, as they come.

That is NOT slight turbulence.

Christmas is cancelled?

This is a bit loud, I can't really head them.

OK, Amy Pond appears, and Rory too, what, bit of fun? I don't want to know.

Turn that background DOWN!

How is the Doctor Christmas?

Still got that lightening in the title sequence I see.

Could it be, that this year we will not be in real UK? To preserve verisimilitude a little? Yay!

Um, December 25 is 2 days into Winter, the Winter solstice is the FIRST day of winter?

Oh that god, Space Scrooge! With a frozen woman... Wha? (This could be awesome!)

Stupid clever kid.

Ah, body sharking! That old Judge Dredd staple!

Crashing is not landing Mr Space Scrooge. Not by any measure.

Intruder chimney!

What a wonderfully crazy bit of logic.

Jeff?

The Doctor, Father Christmas and Albert Einstein? Fanficers GO!

Ice clouds? I wonder if that could work.

"I've never met anyone who wasn't important before." Every nice line.

But you use isomorphic controls Doctor...

Ah, you where bluffing.

Do you know where that puts you? 4004, very nice line.

A touch of restraint, interesting.

You didn't hit the boy, ok, that was a nice little line.

Christmas is not in the middle of winter!

OK, I still can't hear you on the bridge properly.

Fish? Space fish? O K .

Doctor, don't get distracted, Hay Amy said it just after I thought it.

OK, so they told us why we can't use the TARDIS, good.

Christmas Carol. OK, I love this Doctor's crazy logic.

Seems like the man should have isomorphic controls on his PC too...

Quantum enfolding and a paper clip?

How often do you use that lottery schtick doctor? And why does it not stop being awesome?

No body comes for the crying child, reminds me of the space whale episode.

OK, that is some kind of time crazyness. Lottery again? Ah well.

Pay attention, gods I love this doctor's Mad logic!

It never happened YET!

Yes Doctor you should not have mentioned that.

Psychic paper on the blink? A lie too big! Brilliant.

A safe sky is boring, as oposed to dangerous fish? Maybe, but I prefer boredom to danger.

Face spiders in the materess? :smalleek:

OK, the most ever fish at once and no one was hurt? And no one wonders if they are really dangerous?

He's got a bite!

What is going to happen? Why mustn't he? OK this is nice, actually playing with the time travel element.

AHA!

Sky shark!

Shark, the the sky!

Big Colour...

OK, that was cool.

2 goes, 2 arms, Doctor...

Aw, screwdriver dead.

Aw, evil horrible sharky is dead. And I care... Wow.

Ice box? Ah, body sharking (hey, SHARKing!) that was nicely set up.

TARDIS trip to get the number, FINALLY someone who remembers this show has a TIME MACHINE in it!

OK, Sardik seems to have really good PR.

The shark is moving...

You are in fog. This can't cxvbn (shark appeared, made me jump).

Song.

OK, the fish like the singing.

Yes Doctor they do.

OK, Doctor, TARDIS = Amazing. Its like, a fundemental law. Amazing is measured in T units even. Never insult the TARDIS.

OK that is a pretty CGI effect, but no, TARDIS is more amazing.

Wow, that is going to cause major changes to the man's future.

One of her's?

OK, that kid is crazy, and AWESOME!

Wait, are they going to do what I think they are going to do?

Ah, a wonderful CGI Christmas.

OK, and now we get some of the trailer images.

He is really doing this every year? That's a bit, actually this means there is a whole ream of new adventures out there. FANFICERS GO!

OK those numbers are clearly years, but if they are security then that can't be time until realise... um, this looks bad.

I met her once when she was older... I am sure he said that in a previous serial.

Maybe it is because you have been frozen for so long but you seem rather stuff.

And now the Doctor is inside...

Magic tricks.

Badly done magic tricks.

Very badly done.

And the Doctor gets to be part of family Christmas. That's nice.

AWESOME! And still WRONG LOL!

Are those numbers days of life she has left? Because that was going to be hideous later.

Be nervous on purpose! GENIUS!

Australia, Hollywood, showing off Earth again are we?

The Doctor and Frank Sinatra? FANFICERS, you know what to do.

Scratch that, Munroe/Doctor GO!

OK, bad news to kiss? What?

OH! We just don't get to hear it.

And now he breaks it off. Oh, poor Doctor. Ah, I can see why the same events from the start might happen, he wants to keep her in so that she never dies. How wonderfully, sick.

And suddenly its the father portrait again.

OK, his Father is not a nice man, I get it. That felt a bit forced.

This Doctor is very casual about time paradoxes isn't he? I mean that had to be him going to use it only to get pre-empted.

Phone, president.

Ah, wrong message. Whoops.

RORY!

OK, F R E A K Y !

You know, I wonder how they are going to do future for this, given that they are already pretty dark.

OK, nice to see the darker implication here. Time Travel to rewrite people is BAD.

Knew it. I hate Christmas due to evil father to I hate Christmas due to messed up life.

Singing to save their lives, the gift of hope. Nice idea.

Letting people die, because he does not care.

OK, now that is a nice twist.

And then he calls himself Dad, that has to HURT. Darkness level acceptable.

Ah, hand on, his life has changed too much. Bugger. What about the kid?

This is good technobabble. Do technobabble like this. High on babble, low on tenchno, followable with real ideas not junk phrases.

OUCH. OK this is PAINFUL. How do you choose? DAMN this is going to hurt.

Snow. It had to be snow.:smallsigh: Aw, I will give them it.

"I can even land well."

"He gets all the credit."

I like these lines.

And the Doctor slinks off in his TARDIS.

Or not, hmm.

"The Snowman isn't bad either!" HAH.

OK I just realised. Cosplaying.

I think the Doctor might be overdoing the honeymoon for those two.

FANFICERS, you know the rest.

All in all I really liked that, some very good lines, the CGI was decent and I could hear most of it. Also lots of material for the fan fic writters. Better than some of the previous Christmas specials I think.

[Jahkaivah]

Yo dawg I heard you liked time paradoxes.

[Dogmantra]

It was very... Moffatical. That is all.

[Eldan]

Crap.

Crap crap crap crap.

I forgot to watch it! :smalleek:

[Innis Cabal]

The 25fth is 4-5 days into Winter. The Solstice falls on the 20th or the 21sh of December.

[Thufir]

The 25th is 4-5 days into Winter. The Solstice falls on the 20th or the 21sh of December.

21st or 22nd, actually. And Christmas, while technically a celebration of the birth of Christ, was placed on the 25th of December to fall in with the existing celebration of the Roman winter solstice, which was on the 25th of December upon establishment of the Julian calendar.
Hence the link.
Wikipedia has spoken.

[Tiger Duck]

Great episode, I liked it.

but then I like most Doctor who episodes ^^

[Lateral]

It was very... Moffatical. That is all.

What, like Chumley?

[Thufir]

What, like Chumley?

No, that would be Moffical rather than Moffatical.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Crap.

Crap crap crap crap.

I forgot to watch it! :smalleek:

You get it in Zurich?

[Eldan]

For some reason I never quite understood, Switzerland gets BBC, yes.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Well its on BBC Three at 1900 tomorrow...

[GrlumpTheElder]

Good episode, especially liked the fish

One thing - at the end of the Season 6 Trailer, did I spy Slenderman???
Or someone who looks alot like him!

http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/doctor-who-series...ailer-13462.htm

[Closet_Skeleton]

Looked more they a Grey to me.

[Capt Spanner]

It was a fun episode. The sentimentality was layered on towards the end a little. YMMV but I loved it.

It was nicely put together. I enjoy Moffat's human stories vs. epic world ending stories. Gambon was excellent. Abigail was amazing. They got references to Fezes and bowties. Only thing that could have made it better was more of Amy.

[GrlumpTheElder]

It was a fun episode. The sentimentality was layered on towards the end a little. YMMV but I loved it.

It was nicely put together. I enjoy Moffat's human stories vs. epic world ending stories. Gambon was excellent. Abigail was amazing. They got references to Fezes and bowties. Only thing that could have made it better was more of Amy.

This pretty much sums up my feelings. It was nice to have the music, although I think it could have been centred less around it. The thing is I like the music, just not the biggest Jenkins fan.

Edit:

Also, nice to see a Christmas Special not centred around Planet Earth (in a major way).

[The Big Dice]

I'm kind of sick of the same bit of music being used whenever something dramatic is happening. And the casual time travel to solve plot holes is a little irritating too.

But the bit where Gambon hugged his young self was a paradox. It should have caused complications somehow. When the Brigadier shook hands with a younger version of himself, there was an explosion. When Rose held the baby version of herself, it flung the TARDIS into the Vortex.

Other than that, I enjoyed it. It was nice to see a more personal christmas special than RTD gave us. Not that I disliked the RTD ones, but it was good to see something off Earth and that didn't involve a whole world being indanger.

[Thufir]

But the bit where Gambon hugged his young self was a paradox. It should have caused complications somehow. When the Brigadier shook hands with a younger version of himself, there was an explosion. When Rose held the baby version of herself, it flung the TARDIS into the Vortex.

I don't know about the former example, but the latter you're wrong about - what the paradox did was grant entry to one of the reapers outside the church, and it knocked away the TARDIS key which was calling the TARDIS in. And in this instance, no reapers, so no such problem.

[grolim]

I liked the line about finally a lie too big for the psychic paper.

[Starscream]

Liked it. Funny, original, and slightly touching. All in all a fine Christmas special. Matt Smith is now officially one of my favorite Doctors (along with Tom Baker and David Tennant). He's very alien and very human and relateable at the same time.

Gambon was awesome as well. Little more Amy and Rory would have been nice, but the whole thing didn't feel rushed or incomplete at all.

This year I decided to do my own little variation on an advent calendar. I downloaded 25 Christmas Specials I remember from my childhood, and have been watching one a night since the beginning of the month.

Got everything from Simpsons to Smurfs here. All the required classics. I reckon I've seen over half a dozen variations on a Christmas Carol this month (Mickey, Magoo, Bugs Bunny, Animaniacs, Muppets, Flintstones, and now Doctor Who). This one is probably the most unique and interesting of the lot.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I'm kind of sick of the same bit of music being used whenever something dramatic is happening. And the casual time travel to solve plot holes is a little irritating too.

But the bit where Gambon hugged his young self was a paradox. It should have caused complications somehow. When the Brigadier shook hands with a younger version of himself, there was an explosion. When Rose held the baby version of herself, it flung the TARDIS into the Vortex.

Other than that, I enjoyed it. It was nice to see a more personal christmas special than RTD gave us. Not that I disliked the RTD ones, but it was good to see something off Earth and that didn't involve a whole world being indanger.I too think that they need to get a bit more variety in their music, as for the use of time travel, I think that it is good that someone has finally decided to use time travel in this show, seeing how most of the Doctor Who since, well, An Unearthly Child really, has simply used it to get about. I think it is more justifiable here too because the man's past is already in flux as part of the Doctor's plan. Also, consider that from what we know in Father's Day we can infer that the Limiting Effect that caused the explosion was an artificial safeguard. Given that The Doctor has shaken hands with himself on more than one occasion it must be possible to set up situations where a person can meet themselves safely and that The Doctor probably realised that they might end up touching.

[Avaris]

I have to say that the lack of modern day earth made this the most enjoyable christmas special thus far, especially so as it managed to give a sci-fi twist while keeping it 'christmas'

With regard to the paradox, I think its simply embracing the possibilities of the show. I wouldn't be surprised if we see far more of this sort of think during Moffet's time as head honcho, as it makes for more extravagant plot.

On the subject of seeing more of it, my thoughts on the trailer (spoiled in case people see the episode but don't watch the trailer)
Immediate things that jump out at me are the return of the Beast from the satan pit (or a related creature; the guys with runes on their faces certainly give that impression) and the expected importance of the tardis like vehicle found in the lodger episode in the last season. I'm pleased we'll finally find out about River Song... my personal suspicion is that she is the Rani or at the very least another Time Lord.

Also, has anyone else seen the list of teasers about the next season from Moffet?

a few teasers from S6

01.The Doctor will be on trial – twice!
02.Who controls the light sculptors?
03.You won’t believe what’s buried under Wembley Stadium.
04.Scared of the Eye in Space? You should be.
05.Take up thy sins and walk – slowly.
06.There won’t be a pub quiz on Tuesday because there won’t be a pub.
07.Beau Geste is cool.
08.Bow Street runners are cool.
09.Bromley-by-Bow is cool.
10.4 August 1982 – Happy Birthday, Ma’am.
11.Some lies are too much for the psychic paper.
12.“I won’t take calls from THAT Prime Minister.”
13.“Marc, where are you?”
14.The only water in the forest is the river.
15.What awaits the TARDIS at the zero point?
16.“72 years on and Rory’s still terrified of Granny Grainger?”
17.“I was lost in France.”
18.“How could a fellow Gallifreyan stoop so low?”
19.Horror of Bangkok.
20."Give it up, sweet Korn.”
21.Argonite? Here?
22.An ordinary block of flats.
23.“If I saw them walking down the high street what would I think?” I don’t think you’d think anything at all, Amy.”
24.Find the lady – before she finds you!
25.“Margaret! Come back!”
26.The Doctor defeats the Sahara Desert.
27.Susannah’s still alive.
28.Mill Green on fire.
29.The Doctor will get married – Twice!
30.What are the dangers of Port Olveron?
31.502, but never 503.
32.Beware of the kites.
33.“A pillar of salt, yes – but not because she looked back. Looking back is good!”
34.They’ll have to get a new name for Thanksgiving.
35.Pay attention – It’s not really her.
36.Treading through the sand – on the one night they come back.
37.The Shuddering Brethren, they’ll stick in your mind.
38.“I’m my own Doctor.”
39.Octavian wasn’t lying.
40.Mysterious semblance at the the strand of nightmares.
41.The bones of the TARDIS.

10: some connection to royalty I imagine. 4th August was the Queen Mother's birthday.
18: Another Time Lord. My suggestion is River Song
39: So River Song did kill a good man, but was it the doctor?

[Closet_Skeleton]

16 Sounds like Rory's version of Ghost Light.

29 and 11 probably refer to the christmas special.

[Evil DM Mark3]

18 is NOT River Song. That would be very silly. I would have come up before now. The Doctor can recognise Galifreyans by looking at them. And lots of other very obvious reasons. Could be Jenny however. Or The Master (I mean, how long is he going to be "dead" for, it's The Master!) Or The Rani, if anyone would have thought to use the chameleon arch to hide then it would be her. Oh, or Omega, he might still have been outside the universe when The Time War happened.

[Jaros]

12 & 25: Th... Thatcher?

[The Big Dice]

18 is NOT River Song. That would be very silly. I would have come up before now. The Doctor can recognise Galifreyans by looking at them. And lots of other very obvious reasons. Could be Jenny however. Or The Master (I mean, how long is he going to be "dead" for, it's The Master!) Or The Rani, if anyone would have thought to use the chameleon arch to hide then it would be her. Oh, or Omega, he might still have been outside the universe when The Time War happened.
Why can't River song be a Time Lord under the influence of a Chameleon Arch? Why can't she use something like the olfactory sleight of hand the Doctor used against the Family of blood to hide herself? Time Lords use low grade telepathy to recognise each other, maybe River Song is a bit more skilled than the average Time Lord at masking herself.

I'm not even sure if Omega is a Time Lord. He was sucked into that black hole before Rassilon made the first TARDIS.


I too think that they need to get a bit more variety in their music, as for the use of time travel, I think that it is good that someone has finally decided to use time travel in this show, seeing how most of the Doctor Who since, well, An Unearthly Child really, has simply used it to get about. I think it is more justifiable here too because the man's past is already in flux as part of the Doctor's plan. Also, consider that from what we know in Father's Day we can infer that the Limiting Effect that caused the explosion was an artificial safeguard. Given that The Doctor has shaken hands with himself on more than one occasion it must be possible to set up situations where a person can meet themselves safely and that The Doctor probably realised that they might end up touching.
I think they cheapen time travel by using it for gags and using paradox to escape from plot holes. It takes the idea that messing with time is a big deal and turns it into the end of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

The thing is, Moffat used the exact same device in The Curse of Fatal Death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM). In a pastiche, that's fine. But now he's using the exact same gag in the main show.

As for the BlinovitchLimitationEffect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinovitch_Limitation_Effect), people are already pointing out (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/12/25/ten-thoughts-about-doctor-who-a-christmas-carol) that A Christmas Carol violates it.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Why can't River song be a Time Lord under the influence of a Chameleon Arch? Why can't she use something like the olfactory sleight of hand the Doctor used against the Family of blood to hide herself? Time Lords use low grade telepathy to recognise each other, maybe River Song is a bit more skilled than the average Time Lord at masking herself.

I'm not even sure if Omega is a Time Lord. He was sucked into that black hole before Rassilon made the first TARDIS.I will downgrade impossible to a serious mistake. As for Omega, it depends whether we consider The Three Doctors, The Deadly Assassin, The Arch of Infinity or certain Expanded Universe Novels to be the correct answer, because they contradict. He is somewhere between trapped due to a mistake before making the first time machine or assassinated by Rassilon while securing a power source powerful enough to power the fleet of Time Machines he had built. But either way he was certainly a Gallifreyan which is what the hint says.


I think they cheapen time travel by using it for gags and using paradox to escape from plot holes. It takes the idea that messing with time is a big deal and turns it into the end of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

The thing is, Moffat used the exact same device in The Curse of Fatal Death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM). In a pastiche, that's fine. But now he's using the exact same gag in the main show.

As for the BlinovitchLimitationEffect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinovitch_Limitation_Effect), people are already pointing out (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/12/25/ten-thoughts-about-doctor-who-a-christmas-carol) that A Christmas Carol violates it.This is the series that gave us the phrase Timey Wimey Ball. I have also heard it argued, for instance, that by the time me meets himself he is no longer the same person, note how the controls don't recognise him. And when was the last time that we had a Doctor Who story that used time travel in the story, rather than a mechanism to get to it? The Arc of Infinity maybe? Its not like this is the first time that The Doctor has created Time Paradoxes, and at least this is for a decent reason, unlike in Smith and Jones where we get an informational ontological paradox for no reason.

Also, The curse of Fatal Death has a string of changes in a kind of escalation. This story had him, what? Popping back to the present to get an access code for a door? A DOOR. I think this may be the first time EVER that I have heard about Who Fans complaining about The Doctor not getting blocked by a door. OK, time travel is dangerous, but in this story The Doctor has decided to re-write a man's entire life to create a present where he can save over 4000 lives. Stacked next to that, now much of an issue is the trip for the door code?

In fact, looking back, my biggest grievance is the fact that we have a case of symptomless alarm-clock death disease. I really want to know what illness leaves you with exactly 7 days left and has no symptoms that a week of continuous parties would cause to show up. But this is very minor, because it is a good and inventive episode.

[thorgrim29]

Well, the old guy (Gambon?) mentioned that being in the ice booth thing helped her with her symptoms.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think they cheapen time travel by using it for gags and using paradox to escape from plot holes. It takes the idea that messing with time is a big deal and turns it into the end of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

The problem is that the idea that messing with time is a big deal is death to any time travel series and has done more bad than good over the years.

Most of the old episodes didn't even have any time travel in them.

[The Big Dice]

As for Omega, it depends whether we consider The Three Doctors, The Deadly Assassin, The Arch of Infinity or certain Expanded Universe Novels to be the correct answer, because they contradict. He is somewhere between trapped due to a mistake before making the first time machine or assassinated by Rassilon while securing a power source powerful enough to power the fleet of Time Machines he had built. But either way he was certainly a Gallifreyan which is what the hint says.
Omega considers himself to have been betrayed and abandoned. Time Lord history considers his death to be a tragedy that enabled them to travel freely in time and space. What Rassilon thinks has yet to be revealed, other than in the dubious canonicity of the novels.

The issues of the difference between a Gallifreyan and Time Lord needs to be mentioned, too. It seems that while all Time Lords are Gallifreyan, not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords. Otherwise, what would be the need for an Academy and initiation rites like ooking into the Untermpered Schism at age 8?

That's something that casts severe doubt on the canonicity of the books. Lungabrrow hinges on Time Lords being loomed rather than born. But Last of the Time Lords mentions childhood, and The Doctor's Daughter mentions how he was a father once.


And when was the last time that we had a Doctor Who story that used time travel in the story, rather than a mechanism to get to it? The Arc of Infinity maybe? Its not like this is the first time that The Doctor has created Time Paradoxes, and at least this is for a decent reason, unlike in Smith and Jones where we get an informational ontological paradox for no reason.
Parting of the Ways for sure.

Also, The curse of Fatal Death has a string of changes in a kind of escalation. This story had him, what? Popping back to the present to get an access code for a door? A DOOR. I think this may be the first time EVER that I have heard about Who Fans complaining about The Doctor not getting blocked by a door. OK, time travel is dangerous, but in this story The Doctor has decided to re-write a man's entire life to create a present where he can save over 4000 lives. Stacked next to that, now much of an issue is the trip for the door code?
Piloting the TARDIS with enough precision to put him where he needs to be, to the second, is a big issue. Part of the premise of the show is, while the TARDIS is among the most advanced ships in existence, it's also an obsolete piece of junk that can barely be steered by the Doctor.

Coming back half a dozen times in a row to a precise date is a bit dodgy in a show that hinges on the fact that the TARDIS can regularly land in a place that wasn't the one the Doctor aimed for.
In fact, looking back, my biggest grievance is the fact that we have a case of symptomless alarm-clock death disease. I really want to know what illness leaves you with exactly 7 days left and has no symptoms that a week of continuous parties would cause to show up. But this is very minor, because it is a good and inventive episode.[/QUOTE]

[Evil DM Mark3]

Piloting the TARDIS with enough precision to put him where he needs to be, to the second, is a big issue. Part of the premise of the show is, while the TARDIS is among the most advanced ships in existence, it's also an obsolete piece of junk that can barely be steered by the Doctor.

Coming back half a dozen times in a row to a precise date is a bit dodgy in a show that hinges on the fact that the TARDIS can regularly land in a place that wasn't the one the Doctor aimed for.

The degree to which the Doctor cannot control the TARDIS is often overplayed. It started off just as him not knowing where they where so he could not plot a course. The Third Doctor manages to make several highly accurate jumps with no difficulty shortly after having the de-materialiser restored after The Three Doctors, and also made a few piloting errors. Since then we have had patches of highly accurate flight and patches of highly inaccurate flight. Bear in mind that The TARDIS is alive and in a few cases it has been hinted at that it even has an agenda. I personally like to think that from time to time it lands The Doctor where it thinks he should be or to fix something that it thinks he should fix, going off course just for the hell of it.

Plus what we are looking at here for the first journey is running the last journey in reverse, more or less (a few minutes and a few meters displacement) which has to be easier than targeting a specific year on a specific world with no prior reference. The others are not even time critical, he can make a couple of attempts if he likes. Plus moving just one year-one day is again, much simpler than trying to land in a specific part of Oxford for a specific day in a specific year.

Anyway (as I am saying alarmingly often to you of late Big Dice) I can see we are not going to agree on this and at the end of the day if you don't like it no one is making you re-watch.

[0tt3r]

I enjoyed it except for what I though was a big loose end:

The sound machine that controls the sky can no longer be controlled, and they do not have Abigail to sing the skies calm. So, if this ever happens again, it seems they are screwed, unless I missed something.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I enjoyed it except for what I though was a big loose end:

The sound machine that controls the sky can no longer be controlled, and they do not have Abigail to sing the skies calm. So, if this ever happens again, it seems they are screwed, unless I miss something. :smalleek:

Ah.

Um.

Perhaps they can get an engineer in to take the controls apart and rebuild it? I mean it would take a long time (hence why they couldn't do it then) but it would be possible.

[Kato]

So... to keep a long story short:
I really enjoyed the show, after I decided to turn the logic button in my brain off. It's just stupid trying to rationalize time travel and I like how Moffat uses it without even mentioning the possibilities to take the easy way if he can follow the path of narrative causality. You can think whatever you want, that's my opinion on it, ridiculous or not.

I would be criticizing the lack of sexy Amy but Abigail was cute enough to make up to make up for it, I guess.
Well... I'm not going to complain about using one boy for like 4 years of Christmas... Or anything else...
I might have missed something there, but weren't the people kept for security? Why was Abigail taken if she was... well, let's say rather useless? Meh, it's not really important.
What IS important: I want that shark! (And the next season to start next week, or the one after that. Pretty please u.u No? dammit...)

I liked it. Great Christmas Carol. Glad Moffat got to do it.

[chiasaur11]

So... to keep a long story short:
I really enjoyed the show, after I decided to turn the logic button in my brain off. It's just stupid trying to rationalize time travel and I like how Moffat uses it without even mentioning the possibilities to take the easy way if he can follow the path of narrative causality. You can think whatever you want, that's my opinion on it, ridiculous or not.

I would be criticizing the lack of sexy Amy but Abigail was cute enough to make up to make up for it, I guess.
Well... I'm not going to complain about using one boy for like 4 years of Christmas... Or anything else...
I might have missed something there, but weren't the people kept for security? Why was Abigail taken if she was... well, let's say rather useless? Meh, it's not really important.
What IS important: I want that shark! (And the next season to start next week, or the one after that. Pretty please u.u No? dammit...)

I liked it. Great Christmas Carol. Glad Moffat got to do it.


She was taken because the people she mattered most to owed the firm a good deal of money. Collateral type security, not military or political. Made sure they made their payments and the like.

[Kato]

She was taken because the people she mattered most to owed the firm a good deal of money. Collateral type security, not military or political. Made sure they made their payments and the like.

Yeah, I got that but she was only 'worth 8 days of live'. That's... well... just seems stupid to me. She's pretty much dead anyway and there's no real use. It's much more a good thing keeping her kind of alive longer. But whatever, I said I'd ignore logic for my entertainment's sake.

[Eldan]

Just saw it (thanks to the people reminding me it was replayed, I managed to tape it).

I think it's one of my favourite episodes ever. It managed to combine my love for visuals containing sea animals, night skies and clouds all into one. It had great lines, good jokes and some solid emotional moments.

[Tiger Duck]

Yeah this tread has pointed out some fridge moments for me.

But nonetheless I really enjoyed the episode, and am still kind of giddy and happy from watching it yesterday. The doctor is just so very awesome

so it pretty much succeeded in what it was going for, to entertain.

[Thufir]

Also, has anyone else seen the list of teasers about the next season from Moffat?

*snip*


29 and 11 probably refer to the christmas special.

But it said the Doctor would get married twice. He only got married once in the Christmas special.

Also, I'd hazard a guess 18 might be deliberately misleading, with the point of not all Gallifreyans being Time Lords.


And when was the last time that we had a Doctor Who story that used time travel in the story, rather than a mechanism to get to it? The Arc of Infinity maybe?


Parting of the Ways for sure.

The Big Bang I think you'll find...

[thorgrim29]

Bigger loose end is who's in control of the sky since his father died?

[Evil DM Mark3]

The Big Bang I think you'll find...

Hmm. OK, withdrawn.

[SmartAlec]

Coming back half a dozen times in a row to a precise date is a bit dodgy in a show that hinges on the fact that the TARDIS can regularly land in a place that wasn't the one the Doctor aimed for.

Certainly not the first time it's happened, though; I can easily think of a dozen or more Doctor Who episodes from the classics in which repeated precision time travel occurred, off the top of my head.

Perhaps it's possible to 'lock in' co-ordinates of a place you've already been, so that the TARDIS simply travels in time but not space - or vice versa, just as the Doctor did at the end of Utopia, in fact. I know that the place wouldn't be the same place anyway, but that's only according to our primitive earth science.

The TARDIS often drifting way off course is usually travelling to new areas; or it could be travelling to old areas that the TARDIS once visited but the exact location of which it has 'forgotten'. It's getting on a bit in years, as you point out.

For example, the Doctor managing to return Rose to her home but overshooting a year. They'd been travelling to a few other places on the way, so possibly the Doctor or the TARDIS miscarried a few numbers by mistake because it wasn't fresh in their minds and they hadn't thought to lock it in.

[Foeofthelance]

Yeah, I got that but she was only 'worth 8 days of live'. That's... well... just seems stupid to me. She's pretty much dead anyway and there's no real use. It's much more a good thing keeping her kind of alive longer. But whatever, I said I'd ignore logic for my entertainment's sake.

Except that the last eight days her family will ever get to spend with her are now dependent on whether or not they'll ever be able to pay off the debt, which it sounded like they never would. They could very well die before they pay it off at which point, what? Either she gets let out to die penniless and alone, or left in a freezer until the end of time. That's a rather important emotional investment those folks chose to make, if you ask me. Granted, keeping her alive for a while, even in cryo, does mean that she's not making a terrible sacrifice by serving as the collateral, as it also allows her to maybe get cured when she comes out. I think the Father knew what he was going when he accepted her as collateral.

Actually, what bugged me the most, is if the Doctor was willing to go to such great lengths, why didn't he just try to cure her at the end? There's got to be some hospital in the far flung future that could have fixed things, and if he was willing to screw with the time stream that much, it wouldn't have been too hard to go back after they all broke up, pick her up, run her to a clinic somewhere, get it treated, pop her back, tell Kazran it was all taken care of, and save 4,005 people in the process.

[Starscream]

As for the TARDIS sometimes being accurate, and sometimes not, I think there are multiple factors in place:

* It is an old unreliable piece of junk. But unreliable is not the same as inoperative. I had a car once that would refuse to start about one time in every ten. I still used it to get around until I could afford to get a new one, because 90% reliability was good enough for a 16 year old grocery bagger. The Doctor can't get a new one.

* We don't see every adventure. There are explicitly tons of times that the Doctor and his companion just go to a nice planet, hang around and have some fun, and then depart without having to face giant space koala bears who eat brains and sing showtunes. It's just that those experiences are not interesting enough for the BBC to spend tons of money and a prime time Saturday night slot to show them to us. So we mainly see the times something goes wrong, or at least goes right in a very wrong way.

* The Doctor is...the Doctor. While his scatter-brained-ness has gone up and down depending on his current regeneration, he's never been entirely down to earth. Guy's a weirdo, no matter what face he's wearing. According to River, after 900 years he still doesn't know what half the buttons on that console do, and the thing makes that noise only because he leaves the brake on. Combine that with the fact that half the time he's just aimlessly wandering the universe, and it makes sense that he doesn't always take the most care when piloting his time machine. And he threw the manual into a supernova for disagreeing with him.

* It's meant to be piloted by six people at once. He can run around the console all he likes, tie controls in place with string, and hit things with hammers, but he doesn't quite take the place of the other five people he's supposed to have helping him. Changing the "desktop theme" with some regularity can't make things easier.

* The TARDIS is slightly alive. This is mostly spelled out in the Expanded Universe, but even the very third serial of the series hinted that the machine had some form of self awareness. Maybe it goes where it likes. Maybe it has an attitude problem. Maybe it sends him where it thinks he needs to be, or maybe it's just as eccentric and scatterbrained as its owner.

* Just repeat to yourself "It's just a show, I should really just relax".

[Evil DM Mark3]

According to River, after 900 years he still doesn't know what half the buttons on that console do, and the thing makes that noise only because he leaves the brake on.You know, that was perhaps the most annoying moment of the last series for me. I mean really, if The Master's, The Rani's, Omega's and the Galifreyan High Council's TARDISes all make that noise, I am fairly certain they are not all leaving the breaks on.

[Aidan305]

Actually, what bugged me the most, is if the Doctor was willing to go to such great lengths, why didn't he just try to cure her at the end? There's got to be some hospital in the far flung future that could have fixed things, and if he was willing to screw with the time stream that much, it wouldn't have been too hard to go back after they all broke up, pick her up, run her to a clinic somewhere, get it treated, pop her back, tell Kazran it was all taken care of, and save 4,005 people in the process.

Probably because treatments like that take time, and time is something she didn't have.

But mostly, I think it's necessary that she dies at the end. Davis did happy endings, but Moffat does human endings. It'a not the first time either. The Girl in the Fireplace is a good example.

[TechnoScrabble]

There was a point where Doctor Who built it's sci fi off of real science instead of just cool sounding words. Like when the sonic screwdriver used to be able to be used as a weapon, or a door opener, but not a can opener.
Now it does everything but be used as a weapon.

I still LOVE the show, but something about the loss of at least some realism and something about the tenth doctor is putting me off a bit...

[Lioness]

There was a point where Doctor Who built it's sci fi off of real science instead of just cool sounding words. Like when the sonic screwdriver used to be able to be used as a weapon, or a door opener, but not a can opener.
Now it does everything but be used as a weapon.


It still can't do wood.

And loss of realism? It's a Sci-Fi show...occasionally fantasy. It's not (in my mind, at least) meant to be realistic. It's meant to be magical, fantastical, and amazing.

I'd say it manages that most of the time. It takes me to worlds I haven't been, even as an observer. I find that I enjoy it a whole lot more if I just take everything at face value and don't nitpick.

Sure, there are inconsistencies. How many writers has this show been through? And every single one of them has a slightly different view of the show, and how the Doctor works, and what the rules are.
And so they change things a little. Meh.

[Obrysii]

Gotta say, Dumbledore as Scrooge was awesome.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Sure, there are inconsistencies. How many writers has this show been through?

Eighty Four, writing an average of just over 9 episodes each. And of course since 2005 we have had a lot of people who wrote only 1 episode, making the Nu Who even less consistent.

[SmartAlec]

I mean really, if The Master's, The Rani's, Omega's and the Galifreyan High Council's TARDISes all make that noise, I am fairly certain they are not all leaving the breaks on.

It might be just me, but I remember the Master's TARDIS in one episode (Logopolis?) having a much smoother and faster dematerialisation sequence.

[Evil DM Mark3]

It might be just me, but I remember the Master's TARDIS in one episode (Logopolis?) having a much smoother and faster dematerialisation sequence.Oh they did not allways sound identical but they did make noises, that's my point.

[leakingpen]

I enjoyed it except for what I though was a big loose end:

The sound machine that controls the sky can no longer be controlled, and they do not have Abigail to sing the skies calm. So, if this ever happens again, it seems they are screwed, unless I missed something.

no, because the machine is now going to be shut off. it was what was causing all the turbulence, ect, and making it difficult for people. As a type of control.



ut it said the Doctor would get married twice. He only got married once in the Christmas special.

Also, I'd hazard a guess 18 might be deliberately misleading, with the point of not all Gallifreyans being Time Lords.

umm... hes going to marry Dr. Song.

[0tt3r]

no, because the machine is now going to be shut off. it was what was causing all the turbulence, ect, and making it difficult for people. As a type of control.




umm... hes going to marry Dr. Song.

They can not press the off button anymore, because he can not control it. It did not state that they would, but I guess they can just go ahead and rip random wires until it turns off.

[The Big Dice]

They can not press the off button anymore, because he can not control it. It did not state that they would, but I guess they can just go ahead and rip random wires until it turns off.

If you have to make suppositions and guesses about how a situation might resolve, then either the show writer made a mess or didn't care about the situation enough to actually bring it to a full conclusion.

Or the writer didn't feel it was relevant.

[0tt3r]

If you have to make suppositions and guesses about how a situation might resolve, then either the show writer made a mess or didn't care about the situation enough to actually bring it to a full conclusion.

Or the writer didn't feel it was relevant.

Exactly. I think it was a plot hole, but leakingpen did not.

[The Big Dice]

Exactly. I think it was a plot hole, but leakingpen did not.

I thought the cloud thing didn't get a good resolution, and that the Doctor came across as quite callous for not even trying to find out what was wrong with Abigail, let alone not trying to do something about it.

[FoE]

I enjoyed it except for what I though was a big loose end:

The sound machine that controls the sky can no longer be controlled, and they do not have Abigail to sing the skies calm. So, if this ever happens again, it seems they are screwed, unless I missed something.

Wait, wait, wait.

Wasn't the cloud machine the problem in the first place? Didn't Kazran's father say he built the machine so that he could control the skies and keep people from going up to see the fish? And wasn't it because he controlled the skies that the space liner couldn't land?

So all they have to do to prevent this from ever happening is to dismantle the machine.

Also, didn't Kazran say that Abigail had been close to death when they put her in stasis and the machine strengthened her so she had eight extra days to live? The mystery disease didn't have a countdown; the stasis pod had artificially extended her life.

[Evil DM Mark3]

The machine was there to control people yes, but it controlled them by providing a valuable service. People did not want to "go and see the fish" as a rule, remember the shark?

[Rob Roy]

I liked the special. I'm glad it wasn't set in modern times like every other special. The carriage flying shark was crazy awesome. I also liked the thing with Monroe and "big enough lie" line.
I do have one thing to say on the S6 trailer.
Those non brain-eating illithids The Odd are back, awesome!

[leakingpen]

They can not press the off button anymore, because he can not control it. It did not state that they would, but I guess they can just go ahead and rip random wires until it turns off.

oooo. you have a point there.

[Triscuitable]

I believe that this Christmas special is a special I can finally show to my younger brethren. We had people being vaporized into skeletons, (Christmas Invasion), some rather brutal falls (The Runaway Bride), and some very creepy (and sad) finales (The Voyage of the Damned), oh yeah, and the Master. Because any episode with him is going to be absolutely terrifying. (The End of Time). Now we have a giant fog-swimming shark. Not bad. Not scary. Startled my cousin, but besides that, perfectly enjoyable.

[kamikasei]

The 25fth is 4-5 days into Winter. The Solstice falls on the 20th or the 21sh of December.
Defining seasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season#Traditional_season_divisions) as starting on the solstice or equinox is not universal - it's the astronomical definition, but lots of places, including Britain, regard those as the midpoints of the seasons instead of their beginnings. And of course, either way it is indeed halfway out of the darkness.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Defining seasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season#Traditional_season_divisions) as starting on the solstice or equinox is not universal - it's the astronomical definition, but lots of places, including Britain, regard those as the midpoints of the seasons instead of their beginnings. And of course, either way it is indeed halfway out of the darkness.

Problem with that is though, it puts the start of autumn in August...

Really though we all know how the British seasons go, we have four seasons, Winter, rain, other kinds of rain and 2 somewhat reasonable days in late August.

[The Extinguisher]

Problem with that is though, it puts the start of autumn in August...

Really though we all know how the British seasons go, we have four seasons, Winter, rain, other kinds of rain and 2 somewhat reasonable days in late August.

Hey, it's better than in Canada. We've got snow, snow, more snow, and construction.

[hamishspence]

Problem with that is though, it puts the start of autumn in August...

Really though we all know how the British seasons go, we have four seasons, Winter, rain, other kinds of rain and 2 somewhat reasonable days in late August.

Seasonally, there's a bit of lag. The Winter Solstice may be the shortest day of the year, but the next two months tend to be just as wintry as December.

I'd tend to go with the season starting at the beginning of the month that contains the solstice.

Summer would be all of June, July and August
Winter would be all of December, January, February

Spring and Autumn would be the intermediate months:

Spring: March, April, May
Autumn: September, October, November

[Starscream]

I believe that this Christmas special is a special I can finally show to my younger brethren. We had people being vaporized into skeletons, (Christmas Invasion), some rather brutal falls (The Runaway Bride), and some very creepy (and sad) finales (The Voyage of the Damned), oh yeah, and the Master. Because any episode with him is going to be absolutely terrifying. (The End of Time). Now we have a giant fog-swimming shark. Not bad. Not scary. Startled my cousin, but besides that, perfectly enjoyable.

Weird thing is that Stephen Moffat is by far the scariest of the Who writers...and yet he probably has the lowest body count.

Guy can make you scared of little kids, clocks, statues, and the freaking dark, but he actually kills very few people by the standards of this show.

Heck, his first story was the very first "Everybody Lives" tale in the franchise since the Fifth Doctor.

[GrlumpTheElder]

Weird thing is that Stephen Moffat is by far the scariest of the Who writers...and yet he probably has the lowest body count.

Guy can make you scared of little kids, clocks, statues, and the freaking dark, but he actually kills very few people by the standards of this show.

Heck, his first story was the very first "Everybody Lives" tale in the franchise since the Fifth Doctor.

Just goes to show how good a writer he is

oh, and the fact that you don't need a ton of bodies to be scary

[Wardog]

Yeah, I got that but she was only 'worth 8 days of live'. That's... well... just seems stupid to me. She's pretty much dead anyway and there's no real use. It's much more a good thing keeping her kind of alive longer. But whatever, I said I'd ignore logic for my entertainment's sake.

Locking people up in stasis strikes me as somewhat stupid, full stop. The frozen people aren't going to be any use to anyone (not doing any work, earning money to pay off the debts, paying taxes, etc).

The most plausible explanation, based on the Scrouge character's personality, was that he was basically on a power trip / had a bit of a god complex, and wanted to make people essentially (temporarily) sacrifice their loved-ones to him, with actual material gain so important to him.


Also, I just have to say:
LOL shark carriage!

[Szilard]

Locking people up in stasis strikes me as somewhat stupid, full stop. The frozen people aren't going to be any use to anyone (not doing any work, earning money to pay off the debts, paying taxes, etc).

Recall that they were referred to as the surplus population, which is by definition unnecessary, or at least for the time being.

[Eldan]

My assumption was that the planet was a badly terraformed colonly, and that they could only feed so many people (or had only air or water in limited amounts), and the rest had to be frozen. Since that was pretty bad for everyone involved, they turned it into a punishment.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Locking people up in stasis strikes me as somewhat stupid, full stop. The frozen people aren't going to be any use to anyone (not doing any work, earning money to pay off the debts, paying taxes, etc).

He said they where security, it's the same idea as Body Sharking from Judge Dredd. You loan a person money and keep a loved on on ice until they pay you back, possibly threatening to make the condition permanent if they fall behind.

How much would you try to pay back a loan if the security was your mum?

The surplus population line is a reference to the original Christmas Carol, which is what Scrooge calls all of London's poor.

[leakingpen]

Locking people up in stasis strikes me as somewhat stupid, full stop. The frozen people aren't going to be any use to anyone (not doing any work, earning money to pay off the debts, paying taxes, etc).

The most plausible explanation, based on the Scrouge character's personality, was that he was basically on a power trip / had a bit of a god complex, and wanted to make people essentially (temporarily) sacrifice their loved-ones to him, with actual material gain so important to him.


Also, I just have to say:
LOL shark carriage!

it was flat out stated by the boy that the people were being kept as hostages on loans. She just HAPPENED to also be dying.

[Mauve Shirt]

Finally watched this last night. It may have been shown on time this year, but I promised my friend I'd watch it with her.
I enjoyed it. :smallbiggrin: I was worried that it would actually have Ebeneezer Scrooge in it, but my fears were unfounded, and I liked the way they did it.
Alternate timelines out the wazoo, though. First the original dude, then the every-christmas-eve timeline, then he brings back the kid to see his older self and THAT kid is going to have a different experience. Does that kid even have the whole Christmas Eve thing happen to him, or is going forward in time his only experience with the Doctor?
Fun episode.