Ghost Rider Challenge

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

If I were to give the good members here a challenge to create one of my most favorite super heroes just for the sake of creating him I wonder who would make the best build. So...I am going to do it. The abilities of Ghost Rider are drawn out below. The challenge is to create the best build possible encompassing all of these abilities. All WotC 3.5 sources are allowed. No homebrews or third party variations. But the level in which you cap off the build will also remain up to you. If someone can make an awesome build in one level then so be it. Maximum of 20. I just wanna see what neat ideas this will spark. As I have seen many times before that a lot of folks here have neat ideas to share :)

The Ghost Rider is a human who can transform into a being with a flaming skull and supernatural powers. The motorcycles he rides can travel faster than conventional motorcycles and can perform such seemingly impossible feats such as riding up a vertical surface, across the surface of water and leaping across great distances that normal motorcycles could not match. The Ghost Riders are notoriously hard to injure by any conventional means, as bullets and knives usually pass through them without causing pain. It is possible that they are genuinely immortal; it is said that God created them and only God can destroy them.[3] The Ghost Riders possess superhuman strength, enough to easily pick up a truck and hurl it across a room. It has been stated that Johnny Blaze as Ghost Rider can press around 5 tons (or more as seen in World War Hulk).[4]

Each Ghost Rider entity also had abilities specific to him.

* Johnny Blaze - Originally when Blaze transformed into Ghost Rider, his body changed but not the clothes he was wearing. In his new incarnation, this is different and his clothes take on a darker, more sinister appearance with a spiked leather jacket and chains. As Ghost Rider, he can cause his motorcycle to transform and surround itself with hellfire or he can create a new cycle from pure hellfire. He is also capable of projecting hellfire as a weapon. Hellfire "burns the soul" without leaving physical injuries on the victim and its effects have been seen as similar to the "Penance Stare."

In his new incarnation, Blaze is now possibly the most powerful hero on Earth. During "World War Hulk" it was stated by Dr. Stephen Strange that Ghost Rider might be equally as powerful as the "Green Scar" persona of Hulk and could defeat him, but wouldn't because Ghost Rider only defended the innocent and the Illuminati wasn't innocent. Ghost Rider also has the "Penance Stare" and mystical chain, both of which were specific to the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider. He also now has new abilities including hellfire breath and the ability to produce chains from either his throat or chest. He is also now able to travel between the incorporeal realms.

* Daniel Ketch - When Ketch transformed into Ghost Rider, his clothes changed with him, taking on the appearance of a spiked leather jacket with chains, gray leather pants and spiked gloves and boots. Likewise, his motorcycle underwent a radical transformation, changing from a conventional into a high-tech motorcycle (This transformation was not strictly limited to the motorcycle he found in the cemetery as he was once seen to be able to transform another cycle in "Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher: Hearts of Darkness"). Along with flaming wheels that allows the bike to nearly fly across surfaces, the bike included a shield-like battering ram on the front.

As the Ghost Rider, Ketch used a mystical chain which responded to his mental commands. It could grow in length, alter direction while in the air, stiffen into a staff or spear, and separate into several links which can strike like shrapnel and then return to their original form. Daniel's most famous power was the Penance Stare. By locking eyes with a target and mentally focusing, the Danny Ketch Ghost Rider was able to make the target experience all the pain they had ever inflicted on anyone else. This ability was seen to have little effect on some people who were mentally unstable (such as the being known as Madcap. Ghost Rider was also knocked out when attempting to use the Penance Stare on Carnage).

Originally, this incarnation of the Ghost Rider could only be summoned if Danny was present when "innocent blood was spilled" (an innocent simply being threatened was not enough), at which time Danny had to touch the gas cap of his motorcycle for the transformation process to occur. Later, he was able to summon the Ghost Rider without touching the gas cap, but still needed to wait for innocent blood to be spilled. Later still, he was able to summon the Ghost Rider by will.

[umbrapolaris]

essentially they are modern "were-dead" with salient abilities ( like lycanthropes but undead instead of animals, i saw this template somewhere but i forgot where) with a Nightmare steed turned into a motorbike. the rest is magical weapons ^^

[Benejeseret]

I'll think on this more tomorrow (great idea btw, by far my prime comic collection back in the day as well)

Initial thoughts:

A hybrid Paladin/Warlock

Perhaps Hellbred race from Tyrants of the 9 Hells

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), perhaps Dancing enchanted

What we need is a feat (similar to Devouted Tracker or Master Spellthief) that lets us combine those two classes better. Ideally, allow warlock invocations to be spell-linked to mount thus allowing spiderwalk and eventually fly

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

I'll think on this more tomorrow (great idea btw, by far my prime comic collection back in the day as well)

Initial thoughts:

A hybrid Paladin/Warlock

Perhaps Hellbred race from Tyrants of the 9 Hells

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), perhaps Dancing enchanted

What we need is a feat (similar to Devouted Tracker or Master Spellthief) that lets us combine those two classes better. Ideally, allow warlock invocations to be spell-linked to mount thus allowing spiderwalk and eventually fly

Those are some damn good ideas dude. Warlock is an obvious choice for the Rider...another safe jump in logic is to think about hellfire warlock seeing as how Ghost Rider uses...Hellfire. I like the nightmare idea too. The original ghost rider actually rode a hellish horse instead of a motorcycle. If anyone has seen that god awful movie from a few years back then that is what it was. But if you do use a Nightmare then they have a fly speed naturally so you wont haev to worry about sharing any sort of spells. You can also gain them through leadership as they have a cohort adjustment in their entry of the MM. That is my two cents on your ideas. Keep em coming folks. The Spirit of Vengeance needs more BUILDS :D

[umbrapolaris]

and for the "penance stare" its look like a death gaze , so just use the bodak death gaze.

[Zonugal]

Hellbred Cleric/Demonwrecker (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070501) should do the trick fairly well. Perhaps even throwing in Legacy Champion on top of Demonwrecker for additional abilities.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm....

Curst (Lost Empires of Faerun) Lycanthrope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) of some stripe, with Leadership (for the steed - a Nightmare, of course), Warlock should actually fit pretty well.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

There is also a Drow only PrC somewhere that grants a 10th level ability called Judgment? I believe, as a possibilty for the penance stare. If someone knows what that PrC is or would like to include it then have at it.

[JaronK]

A Ghostly Visage is a symbiotic in Fiend Folio, which is chosable as a familiar by level 7 Dread Necromancers. When activated they make your head turn into a scary image (flaming skull?) and use a paralyzing gaze. A Dread Necromancer can also cast Haunt Shift, which could put a fast moving undead (skeletal porpoise?) into a motorcycle looking contraption, allowing it to drive around on command. A quick casting of continual flame later and it's got flaming wheels. A flaming spiked chain completes the look.

Of course, the character isn't very melee centric. So consider instead being a Cleric and simply rebuking a Ghostly Visage, then casting Haunt Shift, and then using your spells to boost your melee power.

JaronK

[true_shinken]

Hellfire Warlock is a given, since that's what he wields - hellfire.
I like JaronK's suggestion about familiars, so maybe Dread Necromancer 7/Warlock 6/Hellfire Warlock 3 with eldritch chain and an item of divine power.

It's hard to make Ghost Rider in D&D, really. The character is all over the place and he is supposed to be incredibly powerful (he almost took down the Hulk during World War Hulk!) but that's really not what it looks like.

[Antonok]

The Disciple of Mephistopheles PrC in the BoVD gets a Body of Flame ability at 10th lvl that would fit. Also gets some specific hellfire abilities.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Consider a pyrokineticist?

The best ideas I have seen so far are the Nightmare and ghostly visage ideas. I have also considered throwing Ur-priest into a build and then going into eldritch disciple to gain full casting and a really high eldritch blast ability. But I am not sure how incredibly well that would fit. I am sure I can make it fit though ;) lol

[true_shinken]

The best ideas I have seen so far are the Nightmare and ghostly visage ideas. I have also considered throwing Ur-priest into a build and then going into eldritch disciple to gain full casting and a really high eldritch blast ability. But I am not sure how incredibly well that would fit. I am sure I can make it fit though ;) lol
Ur-Priest fits if you are doing Zarathos. It doesn't if you are doing Blaze or Danny.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Yeah the zarathos thing does make sense for that. Considering that is the version of Ghost Rider I have always known I might say that is a safe bet for my ideas for this challenge. Warlock, Ur priest, Eldritch Disciple, and Hellfire Warlock. With leadership to gain a nightmare as a cohort.

[Zonugal]

Yeah the zarathos thing does make sense for that. Considering that is the version of Ghost Rider I have always known I might say that is a safe bet for my ideas for this challenge. Warlock, Ur priest, Eldritch Disciple, and Hellfire Warlock. With leadership to gain a nightmare as a cohort.

Than rework Eldritch Glaive into a spiked chain and you are golden.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Than rework Eldritch Glaive into a spiked chain and you are golden.


That's a pro tip ahha

[Benejeseret]

Still throwing things together:

_____________
His bike (although awesome) does not often attack on its own or really do anything other then look amazing and come to him on command.

I'm not sure the bike needs anything that Mount (spell lvl1) with Spell Thematics.

Otherwise, I would use Eberron's feat Bind Elemental feat to bind a fire elemental into an inanimate object in Eberron style. Since a corpse is an inanimate object, a skeletal horse could be bound with a fire elemental as a custom magic item fashioned after a Figurine of Wondrous Power.

______________
The more I think on it, the more I agree he should have a way to become Undead.

Whether this is as a spell or an ability (such as were-lich) it should likely require spell component/focus [blood of the innocent]

Perhaps a suitable Custom Dark Invocation can suite this.
______________
As far as his Penance Stare goes, I have always seen this more as a Psionic Crush or Brain Lock or similar severe demoralization attack on one's psyche. I remember they were often still 'alive'...although suicide soon followed or they were mentally absent with guilt.

I really think that a Custom Greater/Dark Invocation can suite this just fine. Limitations include only usable against Evil (guilty?), gaze attack

And (I hate to mention it) but his opponents were usually pinned when he used this ability in the books.

______________
His "spells" were usually really limited. Some Hellfire Blasts along with Dispelling Invocations, and many of the Lesser Invocations (See the Unseen, Devil's Sight, All Seeing Eyes, Entropic Warding (fluffed to chains deflecting), Spiderwalk (mount). Least Invocations (Curse of Despair, Voracious Dispelling, Flee the Scene), Greater Invocations (Devour magic, Nightmares Made Real, Painful Slumber of Ages), Dark Invocations (Caster's Lament, and Custom [Become Undead], Custom [Penance Stare])

I'm not sure you need any other spell abilities from other full caster classes

______________
High Strength and physical abilities

I had suggested a Custom Dark Invocation...but an undead template (or a were-undead, ideally) template with very hight Str, high Dex, Undead abilities, Frightful Presence would be a better fit.

[umbrapolaris]

1- modified Were-Death Knight template with Ghostly Visage Symbiont and modified Death Gaze who instills illusions of guilts then suicide.
2- hellfire warlock.
3- Nightmare steed who may shapechange into a normal mount.
4- eldritch glaive modified to spiked chain

he is not a true spellcaster or a necromancer so you don't need a spellcasting class.

i think we have enough ideas now to have a good chassis. after we can just add some fluffy and cosmetic things.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Still throwing things together:

_____________
His bike (although awesome) does not often attack on its own or really do anything other then look amazing and come to him on command.

I'm not sure the bike needs anything that Mount (spell lvl1) with Spell Thematics.

Otherwise, I would use Eberron's feat Bind Elemental feat to bind a fire elemental into an inanimate object in Eberron style. Since a corpse is an inanimate object, a skeletal horse could be bound with a fire elemental as a custom magic item fashioned after a Figurine of Wondrous Power.

______________
The more I think on it, the more I agree he should have a way to become Undead.

Whether this is as a spell or an ability (such as were-lich) it should likely require spell component/focus [blood of the innocent]

Perhaps a suitable Custom Dark Invocation can suite this.
______________
As far as his Penance Stare goes, I have always seen this more as a Psionic Crush or Brain Lock or similar severe demoralization attack on one's psyche. I remember they were often still 'alive'...although suicide soon followed or they were mentally absent with guilt.

I really think that a Custom Greater/Dark Invocation can suite this just fine. Limitations include only usable against Evil (guilty?), gaze attack

And (I hate to mention it) but his opponents were usually pinned when he used this ability in the books.

______________
His "spells" were usually really limited. Some Hellfire Blasts along with Dispelling Invocations, and many of the Lesser Invocations (See the Unseen, Devil's Sight, All Seeing Eyes, Entropic Warding (fluffed to chains deflecting), Spiderwalk (mount). Least Invocations (Curse of Despair, Voracious Dispelling, Flee the Scene), Greater Invocations (Devour magic, Nightmares Made Real, Painful Slumber of Ages), Dark Invocations (Caster's Lament, and Custom [Become Undead], Custom [Penance Stare])

I'm not sure you need any other spell abilities from other full caster classes

______________
High Strength and physical abilities

I had suggested a Custom Dark Invocation...but an undead template (or a were-undead, ideally) template with very hight Str, high Dex, Undead abilities, Frightful Presence would be a better fit.

I think you are on to many good things here sir. I agree with the "you hate to mention it" with needing to grapple an opponent to use penance stare. However it seems as if everyone is discounting other spellcasting. I think throwing in a level of binder to coutner the hellfire warlocks con drain would be a healthy addition. Then doing Ur priest into eldritch disciple would give you a wazoo of buff spells to give him his incredible feats of strength etc etc. And maybe somewhere in that list of spells there would be something that would be comprable to the penance stare and some of his other nifty abilities. Having turn undead in the mix too I think would be somewhat fitting themeatically as being part man part spawn of hell would sort of give one a bit of influence over the legions of the dead....but that is just me thinking. We definitely have some good ideas for chassis. Whenever the thinking portions get done I would like to see level by level breakdowns with feats etc to see how it would really all come together.

[Dusk Eclipse]

mmmm IRRC there was a spell in the spell compendium, veil of undeath I think; that gave the caster all the immunities and good things out of being undead....maybe it should become a custom (probably) Dark invocation that mimics that spell? or in the worst case scenario a custom item that cast the spell on the user.

[Keinnicht]

A hybrid Paladin/Warlock


Not a paladin. Not even kind of a paladin. Maybe some kind of LN Paladin of Judgment thing, but not a core Paladin.

Just because you can smite sinners doesn't mean you're a paladin.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

mmmm IRRC there was a spell in the spell compendium, veil of undeath I think; that gave the caster all the immunities and good things out of being undead....maybe it should become a custom (probably) Dark invocation that mimics that spell? or in the worst case scenario a custom item that cast the spell on the user.


Your memory serves you well sir. And those are the kind of spells I would be talking about. And if you did the Ur-priest, Eldritch Disciple route then you would not have to custom make an invocation as you would just be able to cast that spell as it is an 8th level cleric spell. I would also imagine it would be eligible for persistant spell which can be achieved by the Divine metamagic route.

On a different note from my studies on how these things work making an incarnate may also be a viable solution to negating the con damage from hellfire warlock. Depending on how those rules would be interpreted of course.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Not a paladin. Not even kind of a paladin. Maybe some kind of LN Paladin of Judgment thing, but not a core Paladin.

Just because you can smite sinners doesn't mean you're a paladin.


I agree with that as well. I would be willing to say lawful evil even. Because technically ghost rider is a spawn of hell...however the purpose of hell is to punish those people who deserve it. Many people would still view his methods as evil even if they are following the laws of heaven and earth. (All coming from marvel universe lore)

[Dusk Eclipse]

I prefer binder over Shape Souldmeld: Strongheart Vest myself, there are less arguments over healing (as Naberious ability explicitly calls it) the hell-fire damage, than preventing (as it the vest works).

But yeah if you go Ur-priest->Eldritch Disciple (which is illegal unless you use the Ur-priest adaptation to worship a dead god) persisting Veil of Undeath is a good trick (thought it comes a bit late in the game for my tastes)

[Keinnicht]

I agree with that as well. I would be willing to say lawful evil even. Because technically ghost rider is a spawn of hell...however the purpose of hell is to punish those people who deserve it. Many people would still view his methods as evil even if they are following the laws of heaven and earth. (All coming from marvel universe lore)

Yes, but the core paladin isn't punishing people who deserve it. It's being GOOD. Note that the god of retribution (Cuthbert) is LN. Ghost Rider deals in retribution, not in goodness.

Plus paladins can't associate with evil things. Ghost Rider has one in his body. I believe that qualifies as "association."

[umbrapolaris]

Yes, but the core paladin isn't punishing people who deserve it. It's being GOOD. Note that the god of retribution (Cuthbert) is LN. Ghost Rider deals in retribution, not in goodness.

avenging paladin or redeemed blackguard.

paladin or blackguard/warlock/hellfire warlock/ eldritch theurge (divine variant)...?

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Yes, but the core paladin isn't punishing people who deserve it. It's being GOOD. Note that the god of retribution (Cuthbert) is LN. Ghost Rider deals in retribution, not in goodness.

Plus paladins can't associate with evil things. Ghost Rider has one in his body. I believe that qualifies as "association."

I was agreeing with you dude you don't have to defend your statement ahha. That is why I said I would almost be willing to say Ghost Rider is Lawful evil even. He 100% is not Lawful good by any stretch of the imagination. I was agreeing with you 100% on that man. 110% even.

[Dusk Eclipse]

avenging paladin or redeemed blackguard.

paladin or blackguard/warlock/hellfire warlock/ eldritch theurge (divine variant)...?

Eldritch Disciple is the Invocation/Divine theurge class.

[umbrapolaris]

thx, i forgotten the exact name

[golem1972]

As long as you are thinking Binder (Naeberious), you might as well make him really really angry. Then he would be as strong as the Hulk(ing hurler).

Something like Binder 1 / Warlock 6 / Ur-Priest 2 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Eldritch Disciple 8 ? Not even sure if thats legal, AFB.

Eldritch (Spiked Chain) Glaive, DMM Divine Power / Favor / Visage of ...

Plus a couple home brewed invocations like Phantom Steed, and Mindrape?

and Festering Anger, of course.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yanno, Pyrokeneticist really does 99% of what he does.

Flame Lash... re-fluff to look like burning chain... check
Running/Riding on fire up walls and in the air... flamewalk check
Hands Afire... check
Weapon Afire/Greater Weapon Afire... check and check
Nimbus of fire... check
Pennant's Stare... If you want to say this is a death effect, then Heat Death is mechanically what you are looking for.

The only real difference is to make it hellfire rather than normal fire and you're gold.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Yanno, Pyrokeneticist really does 99% of what he does.

Flame Lash... re-fluff to look like burning chain... check
Running/Riding on fire up walls and in the air... flamewalk check
Hands Afire... check
Weapon Afire/Greater Weapon Afire... check and check
Nimbus of fire... check
Pennant's Stare... If you want to say this is a death effect, then Heat Death is mechanically what you are looking for.

The only real difference is to make it hellfire rather than normal fire and you're gold.

I do agree that pyrokineticist would have a lot of the flavor issues as I have stated in an earlier post. However I would say the class in general is far from optimized which is the idea of the challenge ;) But anyone who wishes to post a build that encompasses all of Ghost Riders abilities in whatever way they see most fit may feel free to do so. It is for all to enjoy. Not just one optimized build for me to use or anything ;D

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Looking more into it. Why go more than 1 or 2 warlock? 3 Binder or Incarnate and 2 Warlock would meet the prereqs for Ur-priest. 2 ur-priest and then 10 Eldritch Disciple and 3 Hellfire Warlock to wrap things up with. That's 9th level casting and a butt ton of eldritch blast. I don't think you would recieve dark invocations with that build but...from what I can tell greater invocations are the one to go with for most cases anyways. *scratches chin* In either case keep those builds coming folks. I wanna crown a winner at some point ;)

[Benejeseret]

Couple of bits:

1. Paladin/Hellspawn mesh. Totally realize that Pally and the Hell-bits don't mesh normally. That's why I specifically mentioned Hellbred (race)

Hellbred gives Evil exceptions, and, well, it's Hellbred. Hellbred favoured class is even Paladin despite being from Hell, and surrounded by Evil. In line with the early character feel, Vigilante Prc would be a better fit fluffwise then pally if someone wanted to go that way.

2. You seem set on 9th level spells...and power to you I guess. It just does not seem the right fit for me, and not what I'll take away from this thread.

3. I do like pyro. I'll try to work that in despite perhaps being slightly underimpressive as a class (otherwise a great fit thematically)

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Couple of bits:

1. Paladin/Hellspawn mesh. Totally realize that Pally and the Hell-bits don't mesh normally. That's why I specifically mentioned Hellbred (race)

Hellbred gives Evil exceptions, and, well, it's Hellbred. Hellbred favoured class is even Paladin despite being from Hell, and surrounded by Evil. In line with the early character feel, Vigilante Prc would be a better fit fluffwise then pally if someone wanted to go that way.

2. You seem set on 9th level spells...and power to you I guess. It just does not seem the right fit for me, and not what I'll take away from this thread.

3. I do like pyro. I'll try to work that in despite perhaps being slightly underimpressive as a class (otherwise a great fit thematically)

Like I said man this is an open challenge to build the best ghost rider that can be. It's not something I am going to play anywhere at any time. Just seeing what people come up with. If you don't like casting in the mix then there is no problem whatsoever in that from me. I am just throwing ideas out there and rolling of what other folks are saying. All ideas are welcome and awesome in my book.

[DarkEternal]

Wasn't there also a prestige class, Master of chains or something like that? Could toss that one in there as well.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Wasn't there also a prestige class, Master of chains or something like that? Could toss that one in there as well.

Oh...now that is an idea I have not thought of. IIRC that PrC is pretty hoss too.