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mrcarter11
2010-12-26, 03:58 AM
Can someone help me understand why natural attacks are so great? I'm trying to build a totemist.. I plan on taking it to level 20, and the handbooks mention how great they are.. Why are they so great? And how many can I make per round? The wording on the SRD seems to suggest I can make as many as I want, and they all only take a single -5 penalty.

Kuma Kode
2010-12-26, 04:22 AM
Your primary natural attack is made at your normal attack bonus, while all secondaries are made at -5, unless you have the Multiattack feat, which makes it a -2.

You can take as many attacks as you have natural weapons, but this superscedes extra attacks gained from base attack.

So if you have 2 claws and a bite, you can make 3 attacks, a bite at full attack bonus, and two claws at -5, or whatever. This is generally better than base attack attacks, which are at a progressive -5. Your first is at full, your second is at -5, and your third is -10, and so on.

Halae
2010-12-26, 04:41 AM
Your primary natural attack is made at your normal attack bonus, while all secondaries are made at -5, unless you have the Multiattack feat, which makes it a -2.

You can take as many attacks as you have natural weapons, but this superscedes extra attacks gained from base attack.

So if you have 2 claws and a bite, you can make 3 attacks, a bite at full attack bonus, and two claws at -5, or whatever. This is generally better than base attack attacks, which are at a progressive -5. Your first is at full, your second is at -5, and your third is -10, and so on.

I personally really liked a half-dragon character I had. with the dragon tail feat, he had an attack routine of claw, claw, bite, tail slap, and everything was at no penalty because he took improved multiattack. Surprisingly effective when included with things like an amulet of natural attacks, or the kensai bonuses to equipment (they start out small, but by the last level you're looking at a +10 pair of claws!)

Curmudgeon
2010-12-26, 08:05 AM
The nifty part about having multiple secondary natural weapons is that you can combine them with iterative attacks on a full attack. You still have the secondary natural attack penalty on all those attacks, but lots of natural weapons makes it worth acquiring both Multiattack and Improved Multiattack.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-26, 08:09 AM
Having lots of natural weapons is like Two-Weapon Fighting, but better.

It's especially neat if you have damage that gets added to each attack, like Sneak Attack, Dragonfire Inspiration, or... some Totemist soulmelds I don't remember the names of.

Runestar
2010-12-26, 08:31 AM
I never thought natural attacks were that great. You face issues with dr, enchanting them is prohibitively expensive (amulet of mighty fists only grants enhancement bonuses, amulet of natural weapons is per natural weapon), and can only PA at a 1:1 ratio.

It would be great at lower lvs (a warforged totemist can easily manage 5-6 natural attacks at lv3) compared to a single sword swing by a fighter, but I see it rapidly losing its luster at higher lvs.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-26, 09:00 AM
Totemists care not for enhancing their natural attacks - because soulmelds are pretty much magic items anyway.

They can wear armor and wondrous items if they want magic item bonuses.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-26, 09:52 AM
I never thought natural attacks were that great. You face issues with dr, enchanting them is prohibitively expensive (amulet of mighty fists only grants enhancement bonuses, amulet of natural weapons is per natural weapon), and can only PA at a 1:1 ratio.
Greater Magic Fang can give all your natural weapons a +1 enhancement, and you can add Permanency; that's pretty cheap. For a few rounds, you can boost all natural weapons by up to +5 with Superior Magic Fang. Other spells will work with all your natural weapons, too: Align Fang, Blood Wind (use natural weapons at 20' range), and Silvered Claws. Those spells cover at least magic-, alignment- and silver-specific DR. A Ring of Adamantine Touch (Magic Item Compendium) lets you also bypass adamantine-specific DR.

If you've got lots of natural weapons of the same type (such as 4 claws) you'll get good benefit from feats such as Weapon Focus or Improved Natural Attack.

Yes, there are some problems with natural weapon attacks. But there are solutions to most of those problems as well.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 02:15 PM
This is a totemist with a 1-level dip for pounce:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155

This is his attack list:

Normal:
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+4)
Full attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+4) and 3 Claws +6 melee (1d4+2) and Bite +5 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +5 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +5 melee (1d8+1)

Raging:
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+6)
Full attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+6) and 3 Claws +8 melee (1d4+3) and Bite +7 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +7 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +7 melee (1d8+2)

Charging Pounce:
Full attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+4) and 3 Claws +8 melee (1d4+2) and Bite +7 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +7 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +7 melee (1d8+1)

Raging Charging Pounce:
Full attack: Claw +12 melee (1d4+6) and 3 Claws +10 melee (1d4+3) and Bite +9 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +9 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +9 melee (1d8+2)

This is level 5.

Halae
2010-12-26, 09:26 PM
and don't forget the first of the two interpretations for warshaper! Being able to rapidly grow every single natural attack type you can think of in the space of round is quite terifying, then increasing their damage by one size to boot! Most DMs err on the side of sanity, limiting the interpretation to only one extra natural weapon, but that can still be effectively broken if worked through correctly

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-27, 02:19 PM
Can't believe it got this far without mentioning Improved/Rapidstrike from Draconomicon. Basically, if you have a pair of claws/tentacles/whatever, you get the benefits(and partial penalty) of Two-Weapon Fighting. I still think it gets messed up if you have more than 1 of those though. Behold the following:

2 claws=1 bonus claw attack(up to 3 with Improved Rapidstrike and enough BAB)(simple enough)
Now we throw in:
3 claws=Do you get only 1 bonus claw attack(up to 3 with IR)? Or 1(3) for Pair AB, 1(3) for Pair AC, 1(3) for Pair BC, for a grand total of 3(9!)?
4 claws=2(6) bonus claw attacks? Or AB+AC+AD+BC+BD+CD=6(18!)?

Stuff goes even crazier when you throw in stuff like Snake-Arm grafts; lose claw attacks, but they do bite attacks, so technically, if you had a regular bite(like say, from Willing Deformity: Mouth), you should now qualify for Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike: Bite.:smallbiggrin:

Halae
2010-12-27, 02:49 PM
Can't believe it got this far without mentioning Improved/Rapidstrike from Draconomicon. Basically, if you have a pair of claws/tentacles/whatever, you get the benefits(and partial penalty) of Two-Weapon Fighting. I still think it gets messed up if you have more than 1 of those though. Behold the following:

2 claws=1 bonus claw attack(up to 3 with Improved Rapidstrike and enough BAB)(simple enough)
Now we throw in:
3 claws=Do you get only 1 bonus claw attack(up to 3 with IR)? Or 1(3) for Pair AB, 1(3) for Pair AC, 1(3) for Pair BC, for a grand total of 3(9!)?
4 claws=2(6) bonus claw attacks? Or AB+AC+AD+BC+BD+CD=6(18!)?

Stuff goes even crazier when you throw in stuff like Snake-Arm grafts; lose claw attacks, but they do bite attacks, so technically, if you had a regular bite(like say, from Willing Deformity: Mouth), you should now qualify for Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike: Bite.:smallbiggrin:

So... what we need is a Half-Dragon Changeling Warshaper with Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike! (Half-dragon so that we have a type that's compatible for rapidstrike. If someone has a better suggestion, I'm all ears)

I worked out how many natural attacks you can get with warshaper. if the DM doesn't slap on a limit, then you can get up to 30 (and remember, tentacles and slam attacks are different!)

Drawing only from sources that have been printed:
Half-dragon - 2 Claws, 1 Bite (1 Tail Slap, if you take Dragon Tail)
Giant Squid - 10 Tentacles
Darktentacles - 12 Slams (because they're different from tentacle attacks)
Giant Bee - 1 Sting
Horse - 2 Hooves
Minotaur - 1 Gore

That's 30 different attacks in one round. Get an amuletof Mighty fists in there, and they're all magical. This is one of the only times I've ever considered it more worth it to get an amulet of mighty fists rather than an amulet of natural attacks.

EDIT: and, oh yeah, because of the other warshaper abilities, you now have reach on top of all this and they do damage as if you were one size larger, not to mention an untyped +4 to strength and constitution and fast healing! Battlefield control? Maybe not. But nothing will want to get close to you, to say nothing for your appearance.

Duke of URL
2010-12-27, 03:00 PM
It's especially neat if you have damage that gets added to each attack, like Sneak Attack, Dragonfire Inspiration, or... some Totemist soulmelds I don't remember the names of.

Also awesome if making touch attacks.

Another boost for high numbers of attacks is to use the Blood in the Water Stance (Tiger Claw), use one or more high crit range melee weapons to boost bonuses paired with your secondary attacks.

And access to expansion, of course, is always a plus for any melee build.

mootoall
2010-12-27, 03:03 PM
This is a totemist with a 1-level dip for pounce:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155

This is his attack list:

Normal:
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+4)
Full attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+4) and 3 Claws +6 melee (1d4+2) and Bite +5 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +5 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +5 melee (1d8+1)

Raging:
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+6)
Full attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+6) and 3 Claws +8 melee (1d4+3) and Bite +7 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +7 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +7 melee (1d8+2)

Charging Pounce:
Full attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+4) and 3 Claws +8 melee (1d4+2) and Bite +7 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +7 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +7 melee (1d8+1)

Raging Charging Pounce:
Full attack: Claw +12 melee (1d4+6) and 3 Claws +10 melee (1d4+3) and Bite +9 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +9 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +9 melee (1d8+2)

This is level 5.

I'm on a horse.




It had to be said.

Halae
2010-12-27, 03:19 PM
I'm on a horse.




It had to be said.

... I don't get it.

mootoall
2010-12-27, 03:23 PM
... I don't get it.

Be Enlightened! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZOm2YhOI4c)

Godskook
2010-12-27, 04:38 PM
I'm on a horse.




It had to be said.

Ahem, allow me to say it properly then.

-----------

Look at this sheet, back to me, now back to the sheet and back to me. Sadly, you don't have that many attacks, but if you stopped asking silly questions about the value of them, and started playing a Totemist, you could start getting them. Look down, back up, where are you? Your on a forum looking at the sheet your sheet could be like. What's on your sheet, back at me. Its 2 feats to that combo you love. Look again. The feats are now natural attacks. Anything is possible when your class is totemist, and not a monk. I'm on a Dragon.

Stegyre
2010-12-27, 04:46 PM
GK wins one internet.

That is all.

Halae
2010-12-27, 06:08 PM
This Thread has inspired my desire to create an optimized natural attack based build! Huzzah!

I call him Dominic, because it's slightly inconspicuous

Race: Half-Dragon Changeling

This gives us a few things we need greatly - Access to (Improved) Multiattack and (Improved) Rapidstrike and Access to the warshaper Prestige class, all of which are incredibly useful for the build, and Changeling gives us the shapechanger subtype so that we can enter warshaper and maintain a morphed shape all day long. Technically, you can take Multiattack once you get morphic weapons from Warshaper if you ditch half-dragon, but then you can't get rapidstrike and multiattack won't be available to you until you take that second level. And then it's up to the DM whether or not transformed body parts qualify you for multiattack, so we're going the path of least resistance here

Classes: Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Totemist 5/Warshaper 4/Sorcerer 4/Rogue 3

The Barbarian level gets use pounce to use whenever we make a charge. that's really powerful. Like, REALLY powerful, especially when we get all those nifty morphic weapons. Totemist is there for an obvious reason - Natural Attacks through soulmelds. Because of the number of levels taken in it, we have 4 soulmelds to play with and the ability to bind to Totem, Crown, Arms, and Feet. Girallon Arms is important here as by way of reading you seem to gain 4 more claw attacks. If I'm wrong on that, that's still an extra 2 over what you had before. Binding the dread carrapace soulmeld doubles the threat range of all of your natural weapons. With the number of attacks you're already making, that's HUGE. Urskan Greaves, when bound to your feet, have a little room for interpretation. it assumes that you're only doing 1 attack, and thus adds a flat +1d4 damage per point of essentia invested with that attack. now, that can either mean that only one attack among your pounce gets the bonus, but in all liklihood, every one of your attacks gets that. Certainly worth the invested essentia, eh? Oh, and the cold resistance is nice too. Finally, we have the crown chakra, which I can't seem to find many good things for. So I'll go with the Shedu crown. Why not? 100 ft. telepathy and immunity to knockback effects can be really useful.

Warshaper is a powerful class, even when not played to break. At level one, you gain immunity to sneak attacks, criticals, and stunning, which can make some enemies trivial on its own. You also get Morphic weapons, which is the staple of this build. Suddenly, you are able to grow as many natural weapons as you want. Taking these only from official sources

Half-dragon - 2 Claws, 1 Bite (1 Tail Slap, if you take Dragon Tail, but I suggest not, since you can just grow one)
Giant Squid - 10 Tentacles
Darktentacles - 12 Slams (because they're different from tentacle attacks)
Giant Bee - 1 Sting
Horse - 2 Hooves
Minotaur - 1 Gore
Elephant - 2 Stamps

That's 32 attacks in one round! With pounce, that means you can do all these on a charge rather than a full attack! On top of that, morphic weapons lets you increase the size of them to deal damage as a creature one size larger than yourself, Then next level your strength and constitution increase by an untyped +4 bonus! Then your reach by another 5 feet! 1 more level means you get fast healing 2, which is a pretty remarkable ability in itself, and combined with the fact that you can't be criticled or sneak attacked, it also means that you only have to worry about taking a lot of damage normally, and even then withdrawing from the fight for a few rounds will most likely give you back you HP. Interpretations differ here, and your DM may decide that you can only gain one extra natural weapon. If that's the case, then we're going with the Darktentacles' slams, since there's so many.

The sorcerer levels may seem like a strange idea, especially when considered with wizard getting 2nd level spells earlier, but there's another reason to take all 4 - Versatile spellcaster, and the number of castings per day. applied to Wraithstrike, you essentially have 6 rounds per day (that you cannot, unfortunately, initiate while raging) in which all your attacks made are touch attacks. that gets more and more powerful as you go up in levels, as things like dragons, the tarrasque, and others simply don't increase their dexterity or their deflection bonuses, making them insanely easy to hit when normally they'd be very difficult.

The rogue levels are there to add a bit more oomph to your attacking - if you can catch your opponent flat-footed or in a flank (which can be accomplished easily with some cooperative team members or covering the ground in marbles or grease or something) every one of your 32 attacks will deal an extra 2d6 damage. If every attack hits, that's 64d6 damage on top of everything else you'll be doing, without taking into account your soulmelds. Likely quite worth the 3 levels.

Putting it all together: Now, let's take a quick look at our number of natural attacks. With girallon arms, we have 34. With wraithstrike, these are all touch attacks. With the rogue levels, each of these will deal an additional 2d6 damage to things not immune to criticals on the condition that you are either flanking said enemy or he is flat-footed. let us assume so. Pounce lets you do all this on a charge, earning you an extra 2d4+2 (I Think, with essentia invested into Urskan greaves) for all your attacks.

Now the math - each tentacle or slam is 1d4 damage, your (let's assume 4) claws, hooves, and stinger each deal 1d6 damage, your bite, stamps, tail slap, and gore deal 1d8. With the addition of the urskan greaves and sneak attack each one deals an additional 2d4+2d6+2 damage on your sneak attacking charge, and each one is a touch attack

Assuming we have a flat-footed opponent and a strength of 49 (Which started as 18 but because of morphic body and the half-dragon strength bonus it went up to 30, another 4 from levels that you put into it, then a +6 belt of Giant's strength and a manual for another +5, and finally +4 from rage which adds up to a +20 damage on attacks) and that each attack hits without becoming a critical.

The first number is the attack itself, followed by the urskan greave damage, then the sneak attack damage, the the damage from a charge, then the damage from strength. After That, I've decided to add in (why not) all of his +11 BAB into a Leap attack, for 33 extra damage to each attack
22d4+44d4+44d6+44+440+726 = 1529 Average Damage
7d6+14d4+14d6+14+140+231 = 493.5 Average Damage
5d8+10d4+10d6+10+100+165 = 357.5 Average Damage

That's 2380 damage on average. This is the kind of assault that would send epic level monsters past -500 in a single round. The best part is that I haven't even factored equipment into this, which may, I don't know, add to your charge damage, or increase the damage of a certain type of natural attack. This is what the character is like when he is entirely naked (except for pants. We'll let him have pants). That, and you can cast wraithstrike before you enter rage and leap into the fray, meaning that they're all quite likely to hit since they're now touch attacks.

Also, I haven't added any feats to the build beyond power attack and Leap Attack. Suggestions?

Example Scenario:
You and your party are walking along a dirt road. the group consists of a halfing rogue, a human wizard, an orcish cleric, and that odd person you found in a tavern. you haven't actually seen what he looks like, since he wears a very heavy cloak over himself, but you can tell that he is extremely deformed, from the way his back is shaped, and you think he may have a tail.

Suddenly: Bandits! Led by a man in platemail. The wizard casts grease upon these enemies, to slow them down, and the man in the cloak casts a spell of his own very quickly. Without warning, he roars and leaps towards the attackers, and you see why he looked so deformed. as the cloak flies in the wind, you watch as a nest of tentacles, his arms, legs, both tails, and even his head extend forward from his body, and each passes through the armor to attack the man within. All that is left of the bandit leader is a bloody suit of pate, which falls to the ground, revealing the mutilated corpse within. The remaining bandits scream and run

"Hardly worth the effort" Your companion snorts, pulling his cloak back around his scaled, horrifying visage. He continues to walk along the road, leaving his companions in stunned silence with an unfortunate aroma coming from the halfling.

Build Options:
Thank you, Candycorn!

Other things to think of:

If you have a tail attack (Warshaper yay): Use prehensile tail (serpent kingdoms) and you have a third "hand".

From there, take Multiweapon Fighting (the feat).

Now, when you shape Girallon arms, and bind it to a totem chakra, and get 4 arms, with 4 claw attacks (and 4 hands total, +1 for tail), you can have a bit more fun.

You can use those claws for natural attacks... But why not put a shortsword in each hand? Add on 4 elbow blades (complete scoundrel), 2 knee blades (complete scoundrel), 2 boot blades (complete scoundrel), and the 5 shortswords you're holding...

And, at BAB +11, with Improved Multiweapon fighting, and that half dragon changeling race from earlier?

Let's take Dominic, from earlier, and patch this into him:
Instead of the 4 claws and the tail attack, we're going to use longswords.

Half-dragon - 2 Claws, 1 Bite, Longsword x2
Girallon Arms - +2 Claws, Longsword x2
Giant Squid - 10 Tentacles
Darktentacles - 12 Slams (because they're different from tentacle attacks)
Giant Bee - 1 Sting
Horse - 2 Hooves
Minotaur - 1 Gore
Elephant - 2 Stamps
Dragon - 1 Tail Attack Longsword x1
Elbow Blades - Daggers x4
Knee Blades - Shortswords x2
Boot Blades - Daggers x2

Your iterative attacks will be (with BAB +11, 49 Str, and +2 weapons)

Longsword +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+18
Shortsword +28/+28/+23/+23
Dagger +28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23

Your natural weapons will be:

Bite +28, 10 Tentacles +28, 12 Slams +28, 1 Sting +28, 2 Hooves +28, 1 Gore +28, +2 Stamps +28

Now, total attacks? 52, including iterative and natural secondary attacks.

Now Power attack for 11, shock trooper it to AC, under a wraithstrike, on a pounce, with Leap attack?

Longswords deal 1d8+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth)+11(power attack) x2 (leap attack), or (1d8+2d4+2d6+32)x2, average damage 97

Shortswords deal 1d6+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth) x2 (leap attack), or (2d4+3d6+21)x2, average damage 73

Daggers deal
1d4+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth) x2 (leap attack), or (3d4+2d6+21)x2, average damage 71


Now, giving up 4 claws and a tail attack nets us:
Longsword - 11 attacks @97 damage per attack = 1067 damage

And adding in the boot/elbow weapons gives us:
Shortsword - 4 attacks @73 damage per attack = 292 damage
Dagger - 4 attacks @71 damage per attack = 284 damage

Note: This does not affect the bulk of the Dominic build. The tentacle and slam attacks still hit for a couple thousand damage... You just ALSO get a crapload of iteratives. If you take oversized TWF, add +2 to all the iterative attacks.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:18 PM
I would use Elan or Delkyr Half-Blood myself to be hones, true I don't get the bite and claw attacks at the start, but once you enter Warshaper that doesn't matter.

You are a LA 0 Aberration which let's you have Rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike.

Halae
2010-12-27, 06:23 PM
I would use Elan or Delkyr Half-Blood myself to be hones, true I don't get the bite and claw attacks at the start, but once you enter Warshaper that doesn't matter.

You are a LA 0 Aberration which let's you have Rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike.

yes, but then we need to use a class to enter Warshaper, which just strains the build if it's even doable. I suppose we could use the extra levels to take sorcerer further and get a polymorph-like effect, but then that limits the time that we can use all those morphic weapons

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:32 PM
You have a point there, I didn't notice you were using changeling to enter Warshaper

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-27, 09:15 PM
I rather like the fluff of Geomancer myself. Just a bit sad that you need to spend a level to get 1 set of attacks. The teeny-tiny Hawk Claws suck, unless you started with Insectile(4 bonus arms that can't attack! Wait, wouldn't that make you Arachnoid...?), then you just gained the ability to make attacks with those! Of course, if you started as Insectile, then slapped on Half-Dragon, or took Dragon Disciple, that works too.

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 11:56 PM
Also awesome if making touch attacks.

Hmm? How so?

Keld Denar
2010-12-28, 12:39 AM
The best part about natural attacks is that you can make them in addition to your manufactured weapon routine. Thus, they are essentially free attacks. Just make sure that the weapons you use don't impact your ability to utilize your natural weapons, ie no using swords if you have claw attacks. Remember, your UAS never takes up space, and neither do things like armor spikes or a weighted cloak.

mrcarter11
2010-12-28, 04:38 AM
Does pounce granted from Sphinx Claws go with the rend from the Girallon Arms? As in, if I charge. I get a full attack due to pounce, with that full attack, would the rend kick in from the Arms bind? If so, would I get it more then once, for hitting with all four claws?

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-28, 06:14 AM
Pounce and rend stack. I mean, other monsters have both.

No, rend only happens once. It's if you hit with two or more claw attacks.

Keld Denar
2010-12-28, 08:57 AM
Rend only trigger once per round PER FOE. If you charged into a square where you threatened 2 bad guys, and you had 4+ claw attacks, you could claw one guy twice, rend him, and if you dropped him, claw the other guy twice and rend him too.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-28, 10:51 AM
Rend only trigger once per round PER FOE. If you charged into a square where you threatened 2 bad guys, and you had 4+ claw attacks, you could claw one guy twice, rend him, and if you dropped him, claw the other guy twice and rend him too.

What's stopping you from taking two attacks on each guy even if the first guy doesn't drop? :smallconfused:

2xMachina
2010-12-28, 11:18 AM
Mostly because focused attack is much better.

Half killing 2 enemies is not the same as killing 1. (Being half dead is not in any way impeding them. Being dead does)

mrcarter11
2010-12-28, 11:46 AM
Thanks for the help guys. Since I've never used rend before., the wording says "this attack" does that mean, a separate attack roll is required for the rend damage, or does it trigger in addition to the second claw attack?

Keld Denar
2010-12-28, 12:40 PM
Rend is free damage. There is no attack roll, and it can never crit. It just triggers automatically when conditions are met, namely hitting any target with more than one claw attack.

mrcarter11
2010-12-28, 01:26 PM
Alright well, just finished my totemist.. I ended up with 4 claws, rend, pounce, and bonus damage on a charge. And then, I can change essentia into other melds for ranged combat if need be.


Would Claws of Wyrm improve the claw damage dealt by the Girallon Arms?
Can the Dragon Tail be used in a full attack, by Pounce?
So do natural attacks just take your BAB into account or do they count your Str mod into attack as well?

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 02:45 PM
Natural Attacks use BAB+Strength mod to hit unless they're keyed to dexterity by weapon finesse or some other stat in some other way. (Consider the Ape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm), whose BAB is only +3, and yet the Ape has a +7 on his claws, that extra +4 is not coming from his size modifier)

Dragon tail's tail attack, if it's available to be used on a charge and can be used as part of a full attack, is usable on a pounce's full attack.

And if it doesn't forbid you the use of the weapon on a charge or as part of a full attack, then it's an available choice whenever you attack.

Person_Man
2010-12-28, 04:35 PM
Would Claws of Wyrm improve the claw damage dealt by the Girallon Arms?

No. Bonuses from essentia only apply to the soulmeld they are invested into unless they specifically say otherwise. Totem Avatar and Heart of Fire apply to all natural weapons though, as do a few others that specifically say so.

Also, Magic of Incarnum is very vague about the location of various claws. Most claw adding soulmelds and feats theoretically grow claws out of your physical hands. In my games, Girallion Arms gives you two claws from your hands, and two new floating clawed arms which can only be used for claw attacks. Adding Claws to the Wyrm on top of that wouldn't give you more claws. Though you could get two more from Lamia Belt, which give you claws in your "lower half" (theoretically you get a lamia/centaur like bottom half, with claws).

But again, the rules are very vague. Theoretically as long as the soulmelds occupy different chakra slots, they just keep adding natural weapons. I would talk to your DM.


Can the Dragon Tail be used in a full attack, by Pounce?

Yes.


So do natural attacks just take your BAB into account or do they count your Str mod into attack as well?

Natural Weapons use BAB + Str bonus + miscellanious bonuses (from essentia, feats, flanking, etc).

Lets say you're a 20th level Totemist. You have 6 claws, a bite, a tail, and Multiattack. You carry a sword (Which depending on your DM may prevent you from using one of your claw attacks. Theoretically you can swap it to another hand/claw as a free action between attacks, but again, check with your DM). You make a full attack action, using your sword as your primary attack and your natural weapons as secondary attacks. Your full attack routine would be:

+15/+10/+5/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13

Longsword/Longsword/Longsword/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Bite/Tail.

And that's a non-optimized Totemist.

mrcarter11
2010-12-28, 10:44 PM
Well.. Interestingly enough, I'm using the Forsaken Totemist.. Which you created.. So hello, and thank you for the class. I have 4 claws from the arms, two from Claw meld. And then, perhaps a tail.. I'm still debating it. I do have pounce and rend however.. And the wording of Girallon arms, makes it sound to apply to all claws.

2xMachina
2010-12-28, 10:50 PM
Girrallon does.

However, some rule that the 1st 2 claws overlap.

mrcarter11
2010-12-28, 10:59 PM
So can someone explain how to go about getting extra attacks then? I mean, everything seems to come from the totem bind, which I have double binded already with Girallon Arms and Totem Avatar. I got Sphinx Claws and Wyrm Claws double binded as well. Then I have, Girallon Arms also binded to my arms. I have the feet bind that nets extra damage on a charge.. What am I missing here.

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-29, 01:25 AM
Mostly because focused attack is much better.

Half killing 2 enemies is not the same as killing 1. (Being half dead is not in any way impeding them. Being dead does)

Unless you add poison to your attacks. Then being able to deal 2d4/2d6 ability damage to 2 enemies might be enough to disable them/discount them from the fight, making it more valuable than just dropping one(and leaving the other in perfect health).:smallbiggrin:

Godskook
2010-12-29, 01:26 AM
1.An iterative attack?

2.Warforged + Jaws of Death + Second Slam = 3 natural attacks

3.dragon-type + dragon tail feat(1st level only, iirc) + tail soulmeld = 2 natural attacks(the book dragon magic for the soulmeld)

mrcarter11
2010-12-29, 03:04 AM
Since it was never fully answered, how many do I get though. Do I get one per natural weapon? I'm mostly wondering if it's limited to the same number of iterative attacks as usual, or if it's limited to the number I can make per weapon. Also, if per iterative attacks I can make six attacks, and only have 4 natural weapons.. Can I still only make four attacks, or can I make 6 then?

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-29, 03:19 AM
Since it was never fully answered, how many do I get though. Do I get one per natural weapon? I'm mostly wondering if it's limited to the same number of iterative attacks as usual, or if it's limited to the number I can make per weapon. Also, if per iterative attacks I can make six attacks, and only have 4 natural weapons.. Can I still only make four attacks, or can I make 6 then?

Natural Weapons never get iterative attacks(with the sole exception of a monster with a pair or more of said weapons, in conjunction with Improved/Rapidstrike and even then, it's not quite the same, since you basically get the same number of iterations as for one manufactured weapon, while using two natural weapons).

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-29, 07:19 AM
If you have six iterative attacks and four natural weapons you can in fact make ten attacks...

Well, I think only your secondary natural weapons can be used there, actually, so... ten minus whatever your primary attack(s) are.

And you can't use claw attacks if you're holding a weapon, although they're often primary anyway.

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 07:30 AM
If you have six iterative attacks and four natural weapons you can in fact make ten attacks...

Well, I think only your secondary natural weapons can be used there, actually, so... ten minus whatever your primary attack(s) are.

And you can't use claw attacks if you're holding a weapon, although they're often primary anyway.

:smallconfused: Primary natural weapons become secondary natural weapons when one is wielding a weapon that is not a natural weapon (or when wielding an unarmed strike which is both and neither).

2xMachina
2010-12-29, 07:34 AM
I think if you hold a weapon, your primary NA becomes secondary, but still usable.

And yes, no using the same hand to attack with weapon then claw.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-29, 07:34 AM
:smallconfused: Primary natural weapons become secondary natural weapons when one is wielding a weapon that is not a natural weapon (or when wielding an unarmed strike which is both and neither).

Oh, really?

Well, the fact still remains that you can't use your claw attacks if you're holding something in your claws.

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 07:37 AM
Indeed, wasn't disputing that.

Is more of a question whether one can UAS with one's elbows and claw/wield a weapon with that arm. I'm pretty sure I saw something about biting and headbutting and/or goring being out, though I might be making that part up in my head.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-29, 07:40 AM
Just use your feet.

candycorn
2010-12-29, 09:51 AM
Other things to think of:

If you have a tail attack (Warshaper yay): Use prehensile tail (serpent kingdoms) and you have a third "hand".

From there, take Multiweapon Fighting (the feat).

Now, when you shape Girallon arms, and bind it to a totem chakra, and get 4 arms, with 4 claw attacks (and 4 hands total, +1 for tail), you can have a bit more fun.

You can use those claws for natural attacks... But why not put a shortsword in each hand? Add on 4 elbow blades (complete scoundrel), 2 knee blades (complete scoundrel), 2 boot blades (complete scoundrel), and the 5 shortswords you're holding...

And, at BAB +11, with Improved Multiweapon fighting, and that half dragon changeling race from earlier?

Let's take Dominic, from earlier, and patch this into him:
Instead of the 4 claws and the tail attack, we're going to use longswords.

Half-dragon - 2 Claws, 1 Bite, Longsword x2
Girallon Arms - +2 Claws, Longsword x2
Giant Squid - 10 Tentacles
Darktentacles - 12 Slams (because they're different from tentacle attacks)
Giant Bee - 1 Sting
Horse - 2 Hooves
Minotaur - 1 Gore
Elephant - 2 Stamps
Dragon - 1 Tail Attack Longsword x1
Elbow Blades - Daggers x4
Knee Blades - Shortswords x2
Boot Blades - Daggers x2

Your iterative attacks will be (with BAB +11, 49 Str, and +2 weapons)

Longsword +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+18
Shortsword +28/+28/+23/+23
Dagger +28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23

Your natural weapons will be:

Bite +28, 10 Tentacles +28, 12 Slams +28, 1 Sting +28, 2 Hooves +28, 1 Gore +28, +2 Stamps +28

Now, total attacks? 52, including iterative and natural secondary attacks.

Now Power attack for 11, shock trooper it to AC, under a wraithstrike, on a pounce, with Leap attack?

Longswords deal 1d8+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth)+11(power attack) x2 (leap attack), or (1d8+2d4+2d6+32)x2, average damage 97

Shortswords deal 1d6+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth) x2 (leap attack), or (2d4+3d6+21)x2, average damage 73

Daggers deal
1d4+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth) x2 (leap attack), or (3d4+2d6+21)x2, average damage 71


Now, giving up 4 claws and a tail attack nets us:
Longsword - 11 attacks @97 damage per attack = 1067 damage

And adding in the boot/elbow weapons gives us:
Shortsword - 4 attacks @73 damage per attack = 292 damage
Dagger - 4 attacks @71 damage per attack = 284 damage

Note: This does not affect the bulk of the Dominic build. The tentacle and slam attacks still hit for a couple thousand damage... You just ALSO get a crapload of iteratives. If you take oversized TWF, add +2 to all the iterative attacks.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 09:59 AM
Now, when you shape Girallon arms, and bind it to a totem chakra, and get 4 arms, with 4 claw attacks (and 4 hands total, +1 for tail), you can have a bit more fun.

You can use those claws for natural attacks... But why not put a shortsword in each hand?I doubt you can. Nothing suggests the extra claws from girallon arms are capable of holding weapons, let alone attacking with them.

Keld Denar
2010-12-29, 11:39 AM
Its not explicit, but if you take a look at the stat blocks of creatures with multiweapon fighting, they only really get a number of sets of manufactured weapon iterative attacks equal to the number of actual hands capable of wielding weapons, regardless of whether those hands are actually used. This is a pretty important balance point that prevents you from multiweapon fighting with 50 different weapons, simply because you have 3+ hands.

Again, nothing is fixed in the rules. The rules for Multiweapon Fighting are some of the most vague in the game. Still, if you look at the various stat blocks for creatures that actually have MWF, they all conform to this implied idea.

Thus, a creature with 3 hands would have 1 main hand and 2 offhands, regardless of how many weapons it wielded, while a creature with 6 arms would have one main hand and 5 offhands, and a creature with 2 hands would have one main hand and 1 offhand. It follows the pattern without any dramatic incontinuities like you are implying, where number of sets of iterative attacks can jump from 2 to dozens simply by adding one extra hand.

Also, are the extra arms you get from Girallon Arms even material? Looking at the drawing, they appear to be made out of pure incarnum energy. They do physical slashing damage just like normal claws, but something about having them wield swords is kinda...wierd. Plus, IIRC, Girallon Arms explicitly prevents you from wielding weapons, but the materialness of them would affect your ability to wield a pair of Gloves of Man (Savage Species) on them would WOULD allow you to wield weapons.

Greenish
2010-12-29, 01:15 PM
Plus, IIRC, Girallon Arms explicitly prevents you from wielding weaponsYou're thinking of one of the other soulmelds. Girallon Arms explicitly allows you to wield a weapon (and use the three secondary claw attacks with it).

Halae
2010-12-29, 01:30 PM
Other things to think of:

If you have a tail attack (Warshaper yay): Use prehensile tail (serpent kingdoms) and you have a third "hand".

From there, take Multiweapon Fighting (the feat).

Now, when you shape Girallon arms, and bind it to a totem chakra, and get 4 arms, with 4 claw attacks (and 4 hands total, +1 for tail), you can have a bit more fun.

You can use those claws for natural attacks... But why not put a shortsword in each hand? Add on 4 elbow blades (complete scoundrel), 2 knee blades (complete scoundrel), 2 boot blades (complete scoundrel), and the 5 shortswords you're holding...

And, at BAB +11, with Improved Multiweapon fighting, and that half dragon changeling race from earlier?

Let's take Dominic, from earlier, and patch this into him:
Instead of the 4 claws and the tail attack, we're going to use longswords.

Half-dragon - 2 Claws, 1 Bite, Longsword x2
Girallon Arms - +2 Claws, Longsword x2
Giant Squid - 10 Tentacles
Darktentacles - 12 Slams (because they're different from tentacle attacks)
Giant Bee - 1 Sting
Horse - 2 Hooves
Minotaur - 1 Gore
Elephant - 2 Stamps
Dragon - 1 Tail Attack Longsword x1
Elbow Blades - Daggers x4
Knee Blades - Shortswords x2
Boot Blades - Daggers x2

Your iterative attacks will be (with BAB +11, 49 Str, and +2 weapons)

Longsword +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+18
Shortsword +28/+28/+23/+23
Dagger +28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+23/+23

Your natural weapons will be:

Bite +28, 10 Tentacles +28, 12 Slams +28, 1 Sting +28, 2 Hooves +28, 1 Gore +28, +2 Stamps +28

Now, total attacks? 52, including iterative and natural secondary attacks.

Now Power attack for 11, shock trooper it to AC, under a wraithstrike, on a pounce, with Leap attack?

Longswords deal 1d8+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth)+11(power attack) x2 (leap attack), or (1d8+2d4+2d6+32)x2, average damage 97

Shortswords deal 1d6+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth) x2 (leap attack), or (2d4+3d6+21)x2, average damage 73

Daggers deal
1d4+2d4(urskan)+2d6(sneak)+2(enhancement)+19(stren gth) x2 (leap attack), or (3d4+2d6+21)x2, average damage 71


Now, giving up 4 claws and a tail attack nets us:
Longsword - 11 attacks @97 damage per attack = 1067 damage

And adding in the boot/elbow weapons gives us:
Shortsword - 4 attacks @73 damage per attack = 292 damage
Dagger - 4 attacks @71 damage per attack = 284 damage

Note: This does not affect the bulk of the Dominic build. The tentacle and slam attacks still hit for a couple thousand damage... You just ALSO get a crapload of iteratives. If you take oversized TWF, add +2 to all the iterative attacks.

I shall add your changes to the original (giving credit, of course)

however, you math is slightly off - Leap attack gives x3 damage on your power attack, not x2, but only on the power attack

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 04:19 PM
Hmm. Would bite attack + mouthpick weapon count as a hand for multiweapon fighting, seeing as how it is an appendage(ish) that one can wield a weapon from, or does it have to be called out explicitly in some way?

Person_Man
2010-12-29, 07:29 PM
Well.. Interestingly enough, I'm using the Forsaken Totemist.. Which you created.. So hello, and thank you for the class. I have 4 claws from the arms, two from Claw meld. And then, perhaps a tail.. I'm still debating it. I do have pounce and rend however.. And the wording of Girallon arms, makes it sound to apply to all claws.

Glad to see the class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094) getting some play. Please let me know how it hold up in your game - I'm always looking to tweak and improve my work.

tyckspoon
2010-12-29, 08:26 PM
Also, are the extra arms you get from Girallon Arms even material? Looking at the drawing, they appear to be made out of pure incarnum energy. They do physical slashing damage just like normal claws, but something about having them wield swords is kinda...wierd.

The art for MoI variously shows soulmelds as being both entirely solid and appearing as translucent blue outlines of the melded thing. I don't think the book itself ever says one way or the other, and it would just be a fluff thing in most cases (especially if you only assume the melds do what their rules say- that is, Girallon Arms doesn't necessarily give you working arms. It just gives you claw attacks, stop thinking about it.) Personally, I would say the meld becomes solid either when it is bound, or when you have a high essentia value invested in it.

mrcarter11
2010-12-30, 02:24 AM
Glad to see the class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094) getting some play. Please let me know how it hold up in your game - I'm always looking to tweak and improve my work.

Well.. I found the class great when you first posted it. I believe I'm actually the last person to post in the thread.. I complained about my lack of knowledge on natural attacks.. And now here we are.. It's gestalt so I combined with some other homebrew and whatnot.. Tis a fairly powerful thing.. I think the math worked out on a pounce to average around 350, with 17.5 points of Int damage and 7 points of Con damage.. I'd say that's good enough.