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View Full Version : [3.5] Interaction Between Sculpt Spell and Sudden Widen



balistafreak
2010-12-26, 01:57 PM
I am playing a Wizard. He takes Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration, Sculpt Spell, and Sudden Widen. I prepare a Sculpted cloud spell... let's call it Haboob for its awesome damage potential.

I cast the Sculpted Haboob as a cone. Can I also apply Sudden Widen to make it an 80-foot long sandstorm of death?

Fouredged Sword
2010-12-26, 02:00 PM
yes, yes you can. Now go watch your dm go cry in the other room as you kill his whole big boss encounter.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 04:15 PM
yes, yes you can. Now go watch your dm go cry in the other room as you kill his whole big boss encounter.

I would expect Gust of Wind to be able to cancel it fairly easily, but that's a DM-Ajudication kind of thing(the spell gives no benefits for winds stronger than "strong", but I'd rule it works)

Then there's dispel magic.

And then there's moving, and thanks to the cover the PCs just provided, they have no idea *WHERE*.

Any DM who gets his boss encounter smuckered cause of 5d4 area-of-effect damage needs to brush up on his tactics, a *LOT*.

arguskos
2010-12-26, 04:35 PM
I would expect Gust of Wind to be able to cancel it fairly easily, but that's a DM-Ajudication kind of thing(the spell gives no benefits for winds stronger than "strong", but I'd rule it works)
Sadly, it can't, because Haboob requires multiple rounds of exposure to the wind to be dispersed, and Gust of Wind lasts for a single round. :smallwink:

Good point though, a 5d4 cone of no-save fire damage isn't gonna do much. Also, considering that the bad guy now has Concealment from you (again, thanks to Haboob's wording), you might have just helped him (he drinks a potion of resist energy or something and benefits from the free concealment).

Godskook
2010-12-26, 07:18 PM
Sadly, it can't, because Haboob requires multiple rounds of exposure to the wind to be dispersed, and Gust of Wind lasts for a single round. :smallwink:

Um, you misunderstood me. I was saying:

1.RAW, there's nothing that accounts for Gust of Wind's incredible velocity, and thus, wouldn't work.

-But-

2.I expect DMs would adjudicate it as working, since going from 10 MPH to 20 MPH reduces the dispertion time from 8 rounds to 4, thus, logic would indicate that increasing by +30 MPH again should disperse the cloud automatically. This is(and was admitted in my above post) not even RAI, but is still a fairly likely houserule, given the wording in the spell.

Finally, the spell doesn't deal typed damage of any sort. Standing within deals damage to *EVERYONE*, even those with SR or DR.

Runestar
2010-12-26, 08:07 PM
You are allowed to determine the order in which metamagic feats stack, so your combo seems good to go.

Sculpt spell + widen...now excuse me while I ..... *curses, why is there no diabolical laughter smilie?!?* :smallredface:

kme
2010-12-26, 09:49 PM
Well, the widen spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#widenSpell) cannot increase the area of cylinders, cubes and cones. This makes your options a 240-foot line and 40-foot-radius spread. If you apply the widen spell before the sculpt spell you would get no benefit at all.

ryuteki
2010-12-27, 12:00 AM
Well, the widen spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#widenSpell) cannot increase the area of cylinders, cubes and cones. This makes your options a 240-foot line and 40-foot-radius spread. If you apply the widen spell before the sculpt spell you would get no benefit at all.

Generally widen WILL work on cones, which use the actual phrase "Area: Cone-shaped burst."

FMArthur
2010-12-27, 12:22 AM
You paid 3 feats for an elongated cone of fog? That sounds much worse than the normal, huge circular shapes of fogs (cast at safe range), or 4 10ft cubes. :smallconfused:

tiercel
2010-12-27, 12:26 AM
Um, you misunderstood me. I was saying:

1.RAW, there's nothing that accounts for Gust of Wind's incredible velocity, and thus, wouldn't work.

-But-

2.I expect DMs would adjudicate it as working, since going from 10 MPH to 20 MPH reduces the dispertion time from 8 rounds to 4, thus, logic would indicate that increasing by +30 MPH again should disperse the cloud automatically. This is(and was admitted in my above post) not even RAI, but is still a fairly likely houserule, given the wording in the spell.

Finally, the spell doesn't deal typed damage of any sort. Standing within deals damage to *EVERYONE*, even those with SR or DR.

RAW, gust of wind would do what the text of gust of wind actually says, toward the end (emphasis added):


In addition to the effects noted, a gust of wind can do anything that a sudden blast of wind would be expected to do. It can create a stinging spray of sand or dust, fan a large fire, overturn delicate awnings or hangings, heel over a small boat, and blow gases or vapors to the edge of its range.

If one round of wind isn't enough to disperse the whole cloud, you'd have a 60-ft line of clear path blown out of it, as far as I can see by RAW.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 01:09 AM
RAW, gust of wind would do what the text of gust of wind actually says, toward the end (emphasis added):



If one round of wind isn't enough to disperse the whole cloud, you'd have a 60-ft line of clear path blown out of it, as far as I can see by RAW.

By RAW, Haboob does not produce a gas or vapor. It could be reasonably argued that it creates a suspended solid, though, but that's neither here nor there in this particular RAW argument.

kme
2010-12-27, 08:24 AM
Generally widen WILL work on cones, which use the actual phrase "Area: Cone-shaped burst."
You are right, I also checked the description of cones in general and it says that Most cones are either bursts or emanations. Interesting.

tiercel
2010-12-27, 02:27 PM
By RAW, Haboob does not produce a gas or vapor. It could be reasonably argued that it creates a suspended solid, though, but that's neither here nor there in this particular RAW argument.

Then I guess I'd have to fall back on "a gust of wind can do anything that a sudden blast of wind would be expected to do" in RAW. (I don't have "Haboob" right in front of me, so I was referring to the generic references in thread to areas, clouds, vulnerability to sustained winds.)

If we are talking about a sustained windy sandstorm effect from Haboob, then it is a little more unclear about how a single sharp blast of wind would affect it, but I think it is arguable (from gust of wind's text) that presumably that effect should not be *nothing*.

*also grumbles a little about untyped SR-proof damage, poorly written spells*

Godskook
2010-12-27, 05:29 PM
*also grumbles a little about untyped SR-proof damage, poorly written spells*

Nah, Haboob, from what I can tell, is a fairly balanced spell. It deals 5d4 damage at a level when you could be dealing 10d6 out of the same slot with a fireball. Probably my only complaint with the spell balance-wise is that it is a Conjuration.

balistafreak
2010-12-28, 09:21 AM
You paid 3 feats for an elongated cone of fog? That sounds much worse than the normal, huge circular shapes of fogs (cast at safe range), or 4 10ft cubes. :smallconfused:

It was an experiment. :p

And those 3 feats are quite versatile on all the other spells as well.

New question: does Widen Spell work on spells with an area of "cubes"?

Also, in general, how must the cubes of a spell area measured in cubes be put together? Must they all be contiguous? Or can I place each one wherever it would be legal, as if casting 4 different spells?

Vistella
2010-12-28, 09:23 AM
Also, in general, how must the cubes of a spell area measured in cubes be put together? Must they all be contiguous? Or can I place each one wherever it would be legal, as if casting 4 different spells?

they have to touch each other with at least a corner


so the following does work


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

balistafreak
2010-12-28, 02:47 PM
Now I Widen that spell. Do I increase the amount of cubes I get to 8, or do I get 4 20ft cubes, or what?

The Mentalist
2010-12-28, 02:52 PM
4 20's as I understand it.

Forged Fury
2010-12-28, 02:59 PM
they have to touch each other with at least a corner
They do? I didn't see that in the feat description. Was there errata on that somewhere?

balistafreak
2010-12-28, 03:02 PM
They do? I didn't see that in the feat description. Was there errata on that somewhere?

I'm assuming there's some baseline rules for spells with areas defined by cubes... but for some reason, I can't find a rule determining whether the cubes have to create a contiguous area or not.

Forged Fury
2010-12-28, 03:05 PM
I'm assuming there's some baseline rules for spells with areas defined by cubes... but for some reason, I can't find a rule determining whether the cubes have to create a contiguous area or not.
I just checked the SRD definitions of area and didn't see anything relevant either, although I just skimmed it. I always saw the 4 cubes as being something akin to Meteor Swarm. I do admit that the other interpretation keeps the power level in check, I had just never thought of reading it that way.

kme
2010-12-29, 11:19 AM
New question: does Widen Spell work on spells with an area of "cubes"?Widen Spell [Metamagic]
You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spellís area increase by 100%.A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spellís actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.
Cubes are not affected. But note that it does work with cones(I was wrong on this earlier) since they are emanations or bursts.

As for rules for cube spells, the only thing about them is srd appears to be this line under area section.
(S) Shapeable

If an Area or Effect entry ends with "(S)," you can shape the spell. A shaped effect or area can have no dimension smaller than 10 feet. Many effects or areas are given as cubes to make it easy to model irregular shapes. Three-dimensional volumes are most often needed to define aerial or underwater effects and areas.

I guess one could argue that having your cubes separated would count as having area smaller then 10 feet. But it's hardly clear.