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View Full Version : What is the impact of losing 7th-9th level spells to the setting? [3.5]



true_shinken
2010-12-26, 02:05 PM
As some of you might know, in my world spells are capped at 6th level save by rare items and extensive research.
It just occured to me I never asked the playground about this. What would be the impact of this on your standard D&D setting?
So far, it made little to no different, really (aside from making people who are really dead stay dead).

Urpriest
2010-12-26, 02:07 PM
Silver Swords no longer make sense. Nobody can summon Archfiends.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 02:20 PM
Silver Swords no longer make sense. Nobody can summon Archfiends.

Silver Swords as in swords made from alchemical silver?

What about Lycans, for starters?

arguskos
2010-12-26, 02:23 PM
Silver Swords as in swords made from alchemical silver?

What about Lycans, for starters?
He means the Githyanki Silver Swords, the ones that are designed to work on Astral Projection's silver cords.

AnswersQuestion
2010-12-26, 02:24 PM
Silver Swords as in swords made from alchemical silver?

What about Lycans, for starters?

I believe he means the githyanki silver swords, sort of artifacts, got a bunch of tricks to them, instagibs astral travelers...

Drakefall
2010-12-26, 02:25 PM
I assume that settings in general would be far less likely to explode.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 02:28 PM
He means the Githyanki Silver Swords, the ones that are designed to work on Astral Projection's silver cords.

I had a bad feeling he meant something more obscure.

Urpriest
2010-12-26, 02:33 PM
I had a bad feeling he meant something more obscure.

They're about as obscure as Githyanki themselves, really. Oh similarly, there's a somewhat more obscure monster in the Manual of the Planes that focused on chomping astral cords.

Teleportation Circles are a very stereotypical trap for a Gygaxian dungeon, a world without higher levels spells will have to use other methods, but these aren't too unfeasible.

Aren't some of the Awaken spells higher than 7th level? Incarnate Construct for example?

Godskook
2010-12-26, 02:41 PM
They're about as obscure as Githyanki themselves, really. Oh similarly, there's a somewhat more obscure monster in the Manual of the Planes that focused on chomping astral cords.

"Must have read this one entry in monster manual I"

is more obscure than

"Must have read the weapons section in the PHB *and* in the SRD"

true_shinken
2010-12-26, 03:03 PM
Silver Swords no longer make sense. Nobody can summon Archfiends.
Actually, no. There are still means of plane travel even beyond 6th level spells. Jaunter and Elocater prc do it and you could get a planar ally with said ability. Giths themselves get it as a SLA.

Jallorn
2010-12-26, 03:10 PM
"Must have read this one entry in monster manual I"

is more obscure than

"Must have read the weapons section in the PHB *and* in the SRD"

To be fair, silver and other rare materials aren't in the PHB, they're in the DMG. And no one said anything about it being more obscure, just not particularly obscure.

Oh, and Githyanki is in the SRD too.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-26, 03:11 PM
To be fair, silver and other rare materials aren't in the PHB, they're in the DMG. And no one said anything about it being more obscure, just not particularly obscure.

Oh, and Githyanki is in the SRD too.

Actually, it isn't. Gith of both types, along with Mind Flayers and Beholders, are part of a small group of creatures WotC did not include in the SRD and still considers product identity.

Urpriest
2010-12-26, 03:15 PM
Actually, no. There are still means of plane travel even beyond 6th level spells. Jaunter and Elocater prc do it and you could get a planar ally with said ability. Giths themselves get it as a SLA.

Planar travel still exists. But Silver Swords are only relevant when your planar travel involves Astral Cords, which requires Astral Projection. Similarly, while an Archdevil could be brought to the material by a series of plane shifts, that's really not the same thing as calling one...perhaps it could substitute in a pinch, but it's really a very different execution.

AyeGill
2010-12-26, 03:19 PM
planar travel will become a divine-magic-only thing.

Also, actually, a classic fantasy setting is very unlikely to persist in that state if people are running around with high-level spells. removing them makes a somewhat stable setting make much more sense.

Urpriest
2010-12-26, 05:11 PM
Most Golems won't exist, since most require Limited Wish at least.

Iamyourking
2010-12-26, 05:17 PM
Nobody can summon Archfiends.

At no point did he claim that rituals, even if they are equivalent to epic level spells, are not available.

Not to mention the fact that being able to summon something that can't leave a Magic Circle for 9 minutes is hardly going to be a campaign breaker.

Urpriest
2010-12-26, 05:20 PM
At no point did he claim that rituals, even if they are equivalent to epic level spells, are not available.

Standard D&D settings don't contain such rituals (they're a variant rule at best), except for epic spells themselves, which you can't get if you can't get 9th level spells. Obviously he can houserule in rituals, just like he can houserule in new ways to make golems. He's asking about the effect on a standard D&D setting.

Psyren
2010-12-26, 05:22 PM
Just use rituals Incantations for the higher-level stuff as needed, e.g. (True) Resurrection, Discern Location, Gate, Sympathy/Antipathy etc.

Coidzor
2010-12-26, 05:23 PM
Aren't some of the Awaken spells higher than 7th level? Incarnate Construct for example?

Awaken Construct is a 9th level spell ala Spell Compendium to the best of my knowledge, so that's out without some other route. I believe Awaken Undead is a 6th level spell, 5th for a cleric domain, so that'd be intact. Mass Awaken is 7th or 8th, so that's out as well.

Iamyourking
2010-12-26, 05:24 PM
Yes, and the only way to summon an Arch Fiend is with a ritual and even then only for nine minutes; Locked Within The Gates and all.

Domigorgon
2010-12-26, 05:25 PM
Just play it as "low fantasy". If level 6 is cap, then it's probably very rare even at that; most magic then occurs at levels 1-4.

i.e. no flying castles, epic wizards, interplanar or intraplanar portals...

UNLESS the plot demands it, of course.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 05:32 PM
Most Golems won't exist, since most require Limited Wish at least.

Depends on the availability of artificers......hm....

@OP, do artificers or warlocks exist in your setting, and if so, what limits are placed on them at present? Well, and this is the thing, do the 7th+ level spells exists, and there's simply a E12 cap in place, or are the spells actually gone? Cause in an E12 version, I'm pretty sure I can get reliable access to them via item creation(expensive, but useful)

Psyren
2010-12-26, 06:10 PM
@OP, do artificers or warlocks exist in your setting, and if so, what limits are placed on them at present? Well, and this is the thing, do the 7th+ level spells exists, and there's simply a E12 cap in place, or are the spells actually gone? Cause in an E12 version, I'm pretty sure I can get reliable access to them via item creation(expensive, but useful)


As some of you might know, in my world spells are capped at 6th level save by rare items and extensive research.

I would say the underlined portion means the spells exist; however, a cap on Artificer/Warlock creation ability and/or a modification to the crafting rules can still keep them out of PC hands via that route.

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-26, 08:46 PM
I think you would have to rework some of the other spell lists besides the Wizards and Clerics. Bards spells cap at 6th level, and some of them are 7th or 8th level spells for wizards. Rangers and Paladins may also become slightly more powerful by comparison unless your tweak their spell lists as well.

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 01:49 PM
Depends on the availability of artificers......hm....

@OP, do artificers or warlocks exist in your setting, and if so, what limits are placed on them at present? Well, and this is the thing, do the 7th+ level spells exists, and there's simply a E12 cap in place, or are the spells actually gone? Cause in an E12 version, I'm pretty sure I can get reliable access to them via item creation(expensive, but useful)
The spells are gone, and as it stands there is no limit on Artificers or Warlocks. You can find old, ancient magical items done with spells above 7th level, maybe a forgotten scroll of higher level and a few people are known to rarely be able to recreate the 'old magic' (i.e., they research and create the spells from scratch).


I think you would have to rework some of the other spell lists besides the Wizards and Clerics. Bards spells cap at 6th level, and some of them are 7th or 8th level spells for wizards. Rangers and Paladins may also become slightly more powerful by comparison unless your tweak their spell lists as well.

I'm aware of that, I don't think it's a problem. Wizards are Clerics still seem to be kings of the hill anyway.

Adamantrue
2010-12-27, 03:39 PM
Are the 7th-9th level Slots still available, for Metamagic use?

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 03:49 PM
Are the 7th-9th level Slots still available, for Metamagic use?
Yes they are.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 04:12 PM
The spells are gone, and as it stands there is no limit on Artificers or Warlocks. You can find old, ancient magical items done with spells above 7th level, maybe a forgotten scroll of higher level and a few people are known to rarely be able to recreate the 'old magic' (i.e., they research and create the spells from scratch).

Not sure I understand what you're saying here, so I'll be direct:

A level 12 Artificer counts as a caster level 14 caster for the purpose of item creation. Can he make a greater stone golem from scratch, by beating the DC 33 UMD check required to emulate Symbol of Stunning, a 7th level spell? By RAW, he can, near as I can tell, unless you're putting a 'limit' on the Artificer to emulate your houserule's effect on them.

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 04:53 PM
Not sure I understand what you're saying here, so I'll be direct:

A level 12 Artificer counts as a caster level 14 caster for the purpose of item creation. Can he make a greater stone golem from scratch, by beating the DC 33 UMD check required to emulate Symbol of Stunning, a 7th level spell? By RAW, he can, near as I can tell, unless you're putting a 'limit' on the Artificer to emulate your houserule's effect on them.
He could do it, yes.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 05:19 PM
He could do it, yes.

Then all level 7 spells in your setting, and cost 2275gp unless there's a costly component(Xp, GP or similar). Not sure if I can get 8th or 9th ones or not. That depends on where class levels are capped.

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 05:26 PM
Then all level 7 spells in your setting, and cost 2275gp unless there's a costly component(Xp, GP or similar). Not sure if I can get 8th or 9th ones or not. That depends on where class levels are capped.
Class levels are not capped. And while an artificer could make a 7th level scroll or something, most don'y even know they exist, so they wouldn't even try. They could totally do it, though.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 05:39 PM
Class levels are not capped. And while an artificer could make a 7th level scroll or something, most don'y even know they exist, so they wouldn't even try. They could totally do it, though.

So I can build a level 20 Artificer?

'Standard' optimization for an Artificer has Skill Focus(UMD), circlet of persuasion, a mwk tool, a positive cha mod(let's assume 14), and a cloak of charisma(+6). With ranks, that's +36 on UMD checks. Such an artificer can pass the check to emulate 9th level spells on a roll of 1, and can emulate caster levels up to CL 22, meaning that all non-epic items are within their reach, and a spell of timestop is a 4 day effort for them, without even knowing what the hell they're making.

I suggest you houserule item creation to better fit your desired setting, cause otherwise, the setting requires a bit of fridge logic to keep the Artificers in check.

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 05:54 PM
I suggest you houserule item creation to better fit your desired setting, cause otherwise, the setting requires a bit of fridge logic to keep the Artificers in check.
The logic is that they don't know there's anything above 6th level spells save for select few people.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:09 PM
So I can build a level 20 Artificer?

'Standard' optimization for an Artificer has Skill Focus(UMD), circlet of persuasion, a mwk tool, a positive cha mod(let's assume 14), and a cloak of charisma(+6). With ranks, that's +36 on UMD checks. Such an artificer can pass the check to emulate 9th level spells on a roll of 1, and can emulate caster levels up to CL 22, meaning that all non-epic items are within their reach, and a spell of timestop is a 4 day effort for them, without even knowing what the hell they're making.

I suggest you houserule item creation to better fit your desired setting, cause otherwise, the setting requires a bit of fridge logic to keep the Artificers in check.

Ok, that works for PC characters, and (from what I understand) Shinken has talked with his players so they don't know IG about higher level spells so even an artificer doesn't have the knowledge (and therefore the drive) to start emulating high-level spell so I guess PC artificers (which I don't think are being played right now) won't try to do that.

As for NPC artificers, well shinken is in control of them so I don't think there is a problem that way.

Note: This is all assuming artificers even exist in this setting, because while an extremely powerful (and fun) class, their flavour is pretty tied with eberron, so it might be difficult to port them into other settings with verisimilitude.

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 06:15 PM
This is all assuming artificers even exist in this setting, because while an extremely powerful (and fun) class, their flavour is pretty tied with eberron, so it might be difficult to port them into other settings with verisimilitude.

They actually exist. :smallbiggrin:
I have one artificer/samurai in one of the real life groups and a straight artificer in the pbp group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181067).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:19 PM
They actually exist. :smallbiggrin:
I have one artificer/samurai in one of the real life groups and a straight artificer in the pbp group (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181067).

Then... where my assumptions correct?

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 06:22 PM
Then... where my assumptions correct?
Totally. Right as rain.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:33 PM
Cool.

Now I want to hear what have been the consequences of this that you have experienced, this mid-level magic setting seems interesting (though not my personal cup of tea, I love D&D for the crazy power levels)

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 06:46 PM
Cool.

Now I want to hear what have been the consequences of this that you have experienced, this mid-level magic setting seems interesting (though not my personal cup of tea, I love D&D for the crazy power levels)

But we have crazy power levels alright. With an Artificer chain-boosting everyone and a Wis-synergetic Paladin/Swordsage, we see a lot of 'omgwtfbbq' at the table.
We rarely have spells ending encounters, but that's mostly because I'm really cautious in encounter building. Other than that, I don't think it's different than standard D&D. The whole idea was basically for fluff reasons.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:50 PM
Really? hmm with all the talk about how high level spells break the game, I immediately thought you capped the spells for balance reasons.

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 06:55 PM
Really? hmm with all the talk about how high level spells break the game, I immediately thought you capped the spells for balance reasons.
That was never a issue with my group, they rarely play fullcasters.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:57 PM
I see, still seems fun... I think I'll go and follow your pbp game to see how it works. (the game also uses the spell level cap right?)

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 07:11 PM
I see, still seems fun... I think I'll go and follow your pbp game to see how it works. (the game also uses the spell level cap right?)
Yes it does. I'm afraid we might even have a player dropping out of the pbp, btw, so if you want to prepare a backup character, I'd be honored to have you. :smallcool:

Godskook
2010-12-27, 07:49 PM
Ok, that works for PC characters, and (from what I understand) Shinken has talked with his players so they don't know IG about higher level spells so even an artificer doesn't have the knowledge (and therefore the drive) to start emulating high-level spell so I guess PC artificers (which I don't think are being played right now) won't try to do that.

As for NPC artificers, well shinken is in control of them so I don't think there is a problem that way.

Note: This is all assuming artificers even exist in this setting, because while an extremely powerful (and fun) class, their flavour is pretty tied with eberron, so it might be difficult to port them into other settings with verisimilitude.

Nothing in the Artificer's rules requires a "Need to know", and 7th level spells are a semi-obvious extension of the current system that's quite logical to go looking for. Somewhere between level 10 and level 20, the Artificer is going to start wondering what the last 10 levels worth of casting was for, and start experimenting. And since they're high-int classes, they'll do it with the cheapest item they can find: Scrolls. 4-days later(A length of time they'd practically expect), post-6th level spells start popping out.

If you were dealing with a charisma, wisdom, strength, dexterity, or constitution based class, I'd grant that it seems unlikely. But no. We're dealing with the stat that brought us *CHESS*, and the Encyclopaedia of Chess Openings. Yeah. These guys aren't going looking....

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 07:55 PM
Nothing in the Artificer's rules requires a "Need to know", and 7th level spells are a semi-obvious extension of the current system that's quite logical to go looking for. Somewhere between level 10 and level 20, the Artificer is going to start wondering what the last 10 levels worth of casting was for, and start experimenting. And since they're high-int classes, they'll do it with the cheapest item they can find: Scrolls. 4-days later(A length of time they'd practically expect), post-6th level spells start popping out.
I really don't see it like that. Consider how most settings wouldn't touch epic level magic with a 10-foot pole and notice no one wonders why there is no magic above 9th level in them.

Yahzi
2010-12-27, 08:06 PM
That was never a issue with my group, they rarely play fullcasters.
Then you've already answered your initial question.

I think the opposite question is more intriguing: what effect do 7+ level spells have on a setting? This is an interesting question because virtually all settings are designed without taking 7+ level magic into account. Even if it exists, it doesn't actually affect the world until the players start casting it. Of course, this is true of magic in general.

A case in point: a published Pathfinder module that contained a) a small-town murder mystery, and b) a 3rd level cleric. At the same time. :smallannoyed:

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 08:12 PM
Then you've already answered your initial question.

I think the opposite question is more intriguing: what effect do 7+ level spells have on a setting? This is an interesting question because virtually all settings are designed without taking 7+ level magic into account. Even if it exists, it doesn't actually affect the world until the players start casting it. Of course, this is true of magic in general.

A case in point: a published Pathfinder module that contained a) a small-town murder mystery, and b) a 3rd level cleric. At the same time. :smallannoyed:

I believe there was one module from WOTC that had a villain behind some kind of wall of force that the party was supposed to go around the building deactivating. But the party was high enough level to just disintegrate it and proceed directly to the BBEG and skip all of his mooks'n'minions.

Other than the Tippyverse and things inspired by it though, I'm not sure there's been much thought put into such things.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 08:17 PM
I really don't see it like that. Consider how most settings wouldn't touch epic level magic with a 10-foot pole and notice no one wonders why there is no magic above 9th level in them.

1.Your setting actually has these 7th+ level spells.

2.The difference in gap is quite a bit. Compare "9-20" with "17-20". The first is the range where an artificer can create 6th level scrolls, but not 7th. The second is the range where a wizard can create 9th level scrolls, but can't touch 10ths or epic. No compare both to the 'standard' spell gap for casters. Now compare all 3 to bard, ranger and paladin. To break it down:

Gap - Class
2 - Full-casters till 9ths
3 - Bard standard
3 - Paladin/Ranger standard
4 - Full-casters till epic
4 - P's/R's level 2 spells(odd, huh?)
5 - Bard till ISC
7 - P's/R's till ISC
12 - Your proposed period that an Artificer is going to spend creating 6th level scrolls without searching for 7ths

Notice how *NOBODY* has to wait 12 levels to get higher level spells? Hell, if I understand you right, a heightened(to 9th) fireball would be a DM-expected scroll to find in magicmart in your setting, so it really doesn't make sense that Wish scrolls aren't getting made.

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 08:21 PM
2.The difference in gap is quite a bit. Compare "9-20" with "17-20". The first is the range where an artificer can create 6th level scrolls, but not 7th. The second is the range where a wizard can create 9th level scrolls, but can't touch 10ths or epic. No compare both to the 'standard' spell gap for casters. Now compare all 3 to bard, ranger and paladin. To break it down:

Gap - Class
2 - Full-casters till 9ths
3 - Bard standard
3 - Paladin/Ranger standard
4 - Full-casters till epic
4 - P's/R's level 2 spells(odd, huh?)
5 - Bard till ISC
7 - P's/R's till ISC

ISC? :smallconfused:

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 08:25 PM
1.Your setting actually has these 7th+ level spells.
But most people (and most artificers) don't know about it. They think magic caps at 6th level.


Notice how *NOBODY* has to wait 12 levels to get higher level spells? Hell, if I understand you right, a heightened(to 9th) fireball would be a DM-expected scroll to find in magicmart in your setting, so it really doesn't make sense that Wish scrolls aren't getting made.
Maybe this is a troubling point, there are no magic marts in my setting. You can buy magical items, bu you have to either order it directly or find someone who had a reason to actually create said item.
Also, characters don't *know* what 'waiting 12 levels' means.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 08:53 PM
@TShinken, can you fix your post?


ISC? :smallconfused:

Improved Spell Capacity

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 08:55 PM
@TShinken, can you fix your post?
Hm? Sorry, I don't get it.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 08:56 PM
Hm? Sorry, I don't get it.

Post 50 is missing a quote tag or something.

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 09:01 PM
Post 50 is missing a quote tag or something.
Oh, I see. Sorry about that. Fixed.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 09:13 PM
But most people (and most artificers) don't know about it. They think magic caps at 6th level.

Why would they? That's not how the explorer's mind works. Think about modern science and sci-fi. We were already writing about and imagining robots with A.I. so complicated as to understand statements such as Asimov's Laws before we even had internet.

In a world powerful enough to have 20th level characters and 6th level spells, they'd be *obsessed* with learning 7th+ spells.


Maybe this is a troubling point, there are no magic marts in my setting. You can buy magical items, bu you have to either order it directly or find someone who had a reason to actually create said item.

Artificers get to level 20 in your setting without setting up shops? As NPCs?


Also, characters don't *know* what 'waiting 12 levels' means.

To a degree, yeah they do, and it can be determined experimentally. Maximized Enervation and Wights, to top the list. That's not to mention any other indicators of what a 'level' is(Xp is a measurable concept, such that NPCs will require a certain amount of gold in trade for it).

true_shinken
2010-12-27, 09:45 PM
Why would they? That's not how the explorer's mind works. Think about modern science and sci-fi. We were already writing about and imagining robots with A.I. so complicated as to understand statements such as Asimov's Laws before we even had internet.

In a world powerful enough to have 20th level characters and 6th level spells, they'd be *obsessed* with learning 7th+ spells.
Hm, you do have a point. I'll just have to houserule that they need scrolls as well, then.




Artificers get to level 20 in your setting without setting up shops? As NPCs?
Yes. I don't think magic marts make any sense. Very few people have enough money to buy magic items and most of those would rather hire an artificer to be around them. Setting up a shop sounds counter-intuitive, to me. High level artificers create flying ships, work on them, become viziers, stuff like that. Also, level 20 characters are very very very rare acording to the DMg anyway, so even if among all, like, 5 20th level artificers in the setting one of them decided to set up a shop, that would b just one magic mart in the world, or something to that effect.
Also, I think if you are dealing with magic to the extent that a high level artificer does, setting up a shop would seem beneath you.


To a degree, yeah they do, and it can be determined experimentally. Maximized Enervation and Wights, to top the list. That's not to mention any other indicators of what a 'level' is(Xp is a measurable concept, such that NPCs will require a certain amount of gold in trade for it).
A fair point.

awa
2010-12-27, 11:48 PM
making magic items takes a lot of time (assuming that is still true for artificers) high level artificers will have better things to do with their time then making ever conceivable magical item so some guy can walk in and pick the exact item he wants off the shelf. a level 20 artificer wont have a shop in a town he will be running it, because hes level 20 and one of the most powerful beings on the planet.
edit
people did not just discover how to make nuclear power plants even when they were able to conceive of it. So just because some guy believes level 9 spells exists doesn't mean he can make one. on top of that only a tiny percent of people have the ability to do anything about this at all (assuming high level artificers are rare). Research would cost money, exp and lots of time and who knows how safe it is what happens when you botch a wish? and then after all that you have now revealed to the world a single spell it will take some one else to decode the next one.

my point is its entirely conceivable that no one has yet discovered how to make a scroll of these high level spells

Callista
2010-12-28, 12:09 AM
I think it would actually make very little difference. In a standard D&D setting, there are very few people capable of casting 7th level spells anyway--those start at 13th level, and not too many people get to 13th level in a spellcasting class. You'll have maybe a dozen or two dozen casters of that level or higher in a big city with a big wizards' organization... most towns will have none at all. That's not enough people casting them that those spells become a common part of everyday life.

What actually really makes a difference to the standard D&D setting are the low-level spells--first, second level, and cantrips. Those are ubiquitous. Nearly every town has at least one adept, and mid-sized towns have PC classes. Spells like Cure Minor Wounds or Create Water really change the way life works for the average person. Low-level battlefield control from a squad of casters can really change the tide of battle for all those Warrior 1-3s--unless of course they're being countered by the other side's casters.

The mid-level casters that can start really affecting large-scale events can start doing so at lower levels than 7th-level spells. Raising the dead, dropping big magical bombs, enchanting people, spreading disease, all of that is possible at lower levels. Remember, when you're a Commoner, it doesn't matter whether you got killed by a Magic Missile or a Meteor Swarm--you're equally dead. And it doesn't matter whether somebody used Mindrape or Charm Person and a high Diplomacy--you're a fanatic follower either way. Mid-levels are so far above the average everyday people that they're functionally having just as much impact as high-levels do. It's really only once they fight other members of the big leagues that that difference matters...

Godskook
2010-12-28, 12:44 AM
making magic items takes a lot of time (assuming that is still true for artificers) high level artificers will have better things to do with their time then making ever conceivable magical item so some guy can walk in and pick the exact item he wants off the shelf. a level 20 artificer wont have a shop in a town he will be running it, because hes level 20 and one of the most powerful beings on the planet.

A single 9th level scroll is a 4-day effort. The equivalent of a short work-week.

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 01:01 AM
Well, you've got the spells which, with their ubiquity will change every day life for many, many people, and then you have the spells that, by being only in the hands of the powerful, can influence political and social structures.

If 3rd level spells are the height of magical power, then armies aren't made obsolete, for instance. 9th level spells certainly can render traditional armies obsolete, either by summoning an army of angels or making one's own infinitely expanding force of bound clones of angels. Somewhere in the 5 spell levels between these two is where the paradigm really shifts.

Chilingsworth
2010-12-28, 01:07 AM
Since level 7+ spells once existed in your world ('old magic') they must have disapeared somehow. How did this happen? It seems to me that would do alot to indicate how much the change affects the world.

BridgeCity
2010-12-28, 11:13 AM
A single 9th level scroll is a 4-day effort. The equivalent of a short work-week.

That means in a year of constant work to create items the artificer has made less than 100 scrolls. That's not much output a year for a 'magic mart' scenario, a little store definately, but not a supermarket type thing. Also, as I think was said before, not many people would be able to afford these anyway so it would be quite a waste of time, and there would be better things to do for an epic character than to run a store.

At the OP, I read the thread but skimmed a few posts so not sure if this was brought up yet. Do you do anything to compensate the characters who have their class limited by this? I'm talking about the fact that wizards are all about their spell level progression, so when that caps at whatever level that is (I've never played one so I can't remember) do they advance in some other way? Like extra spells per day or something, to make the last levels of their class still worth it?

I'm asking because I really like the idea of limiting spell casting ability and would like to try it sometime.

awa
2010-12-28, 11:18 AM
even if the full casters were not reimbursed for lost spell their still the most powerful of the lot and they can still use those slots for meta magic so think he would be fine with out giving them anything

Godskook
2010-12-28, 11:26 AM
Also, as I think was said before, not many people would be able to afford these anyway so it would be quite a waste of time

A level 10 character could buy a 9th level scroll with less than 10% his WBL. By level 15, its 2-3%.

I'm not sure what the demographics are in his setting, but they sounded high enough to warrant an actual post-10th culture.

awa
2010-12-28, 11:49 AM
but high level characters have better things to do with their time then play shop keeper. just because people can afford to buy it does not mean someone is there to sell it, and even if a high level artificer decided his time had no value hes going to be in the minority and it will mean traveling to him rather than just assuming theirs one in every town

BridgeCity
2010-12-28, 12:26 PM
A level 10 character could buy a 9th level scroll with less than 10% his WBL. By level 15, its 2-3%.

I'm not sure what the demographics are in his setting, but they sounded high enough to warrant an actual post-10th culture.

In games I've played in, and from what I understand about most other peoples games (edit: of the people I know in real life, not trying to say most people everywhere), characters this high are in no way common enough to be buying enough magic item's to make the articifer's time worth it. Level 10 is very very special, level 15 is world changingly powerful.


but high level characters have better things to do with their time then play shop keeper. just because people can afford to buy it does not mean someone is there to sell it, and even if a high level artificer decided his time had no value hes going to be in the minority and it will mean traveling to him rather than just assuming theirs one in every town

Agreed, and as someone else said (can't remember who) it would make far more sense for an artificer to take patronage with an adventuring group or some sort of noble family and supply their needs on a case by case basis instead of opening up a store and banking on them coming to him instead.

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 01:28 PM
I think it will mean magic won't take over everything, so the mundane may be a little more valued than normal. However, as the high level magic is still around, all it takes is one person to access it and the whole balance of power changes. If this person shares the knowledge, than the setting will start to go back to the normal type of setting, as other people learn how to use those spells (say, Wizards or Archivist copying them out) and it spreads. If the person doesn't spread the knowledge, though, and uses it for themselves, they'll have quite a good edge over the other groups in the setting, since they could make whole groups of soldiers invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityMass.htm), have better quality undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm), raise the (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) dead better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm), and so on.

As for the artificer thing, I don't think one solitary artificer would do well with a magic mart. With other crafters working below him, though, it might work well, since it would be a major source of high-powered items (and more regular magic items, and perhaps mundane items, since he could have nonmagical crafters working on that), and that may attract people to the area, setting up businesses around the magic mart (unless constructs are used, the workers would need to be fed, after all, and the crafters would need materials) and the workers would need housing, as well. The boss artificer could then take over the local businesses, and take profits from that, and grow. Of course, that doesn't require the boss to be a crafter. All that means is that the best items are available (of course, if another high level artificer is available to hire, then it is again unnecessary).

BridgeCity
2010-12-28, 01:41 PM
. . . As for the artificer thing, I don't think one solitary artificer would do well with a magic mart. With other crafters working below him, though, it might work well, since it would be a major source of high-powered items (and more regular magic items, and perhaps mundane items, since he could have nonmagical crafters working on that), and that may attract people to the area, setting up businesses around the magic mart (unless constructs are used, the workers would need to be fed, after all, and the crafters would need materials) and the workers would need housing, as well. The boss artificer could then take over the local businesses, and take profits from that, and grow. Of course, that doesn't require the boss to be a crafter. All that means is that the best items are available (of course, if another high level artificer is available to hire, then it is again unnecessary).

While that makes the production-time and output better, it doesn't address the fact that hardly anyone will actually be buying the stuff. So you're just making even more items no one can afford.

true_shinken
2010-12-28, 02:25 PM
Since level 7+ spells once existed in your world ('old magic') they must have disapeared somehow. How did this happen? It seems to me that would do alot to indicate how much the change affects the world.
A magical war nealy destroyed the world. The nation of mages (which I'm calling the Suel Empire just because of Suel Arcanamachs :smallbiggrin:) was completely destroyed, leaving a blue desert behind. Gods and mortals allike were afraid of magic's full potential, so they destroyed most higher level magical items and the techniques to create them. This knowledge is mostly lost.
The yuan-ti, however, were chosen by Sseth (and the other gods agreed; it's not Sseth backstabbing this time) to keep some of the old magic hidden, below the blue desert. Other than those 'yuan-ti caches', there are only a few graves/dungeons/lost libraries around the world with old magic.
Only one of the world's kingdoms dares gather this resources. Even the drow are careful about old magic, because it nearly destroyed the world and it could do such again.




At the OP, I read the thread but skimmed a few posts so not sure if this was brought up yet. Do you do anything to compensate the characters who have their class limited by this? I'm talking about the fact that wizards are all about their spell level progression, so when that caps at whatever level that is (I've never played one so I can't remember) do they advance in some other way? Like extra spells per day or something, to make the last levels of their class still worth it?

They still get slots. They use those for metamagic or for extra lower level spells. I frequently use Wizards and Sorcerers as villains and they don't feel any weaker, really.


I think it will mean magic won't take over everything, so the mundane may be a little more valued than normal. However, as the high level magic is still around, all it takes is one person to access it and the whole balance of power changes. If this person shares the knowledge, than the setting will start to go back to the normal type of setting, as other people learn how to use those spells (say, Wizards or Archivist copying them out) and it spreads.
This is basically what is happening. One guy decided to say 'screw it, I'm a janni' and he's been killing yuan-ti and taking their ancient magic and farming wishes. He dominated about 1/5 of the continent, surrounded it with adamantine walls and rules that place with an iron fist (he doesn't spread his territory because he fears the gods). Everyone that finds old magic and tries to use it/reproduce it has three big problems:
1) the aforementioned Azure Empire will find you and kill you
2) the yuan-ti will search you, find you and kill you horribly
3) Klarf the Archmage (our resident 'ultimate arcanist') will scry for you, have a nice long shot with you about how you shouldn't do this, advice you to hide from the yuan-ti and the Azure Empire. All while he tries to trick you and take that away from you. (btw, Klarf was a player character :smalltongue:)

thorgrim29
2010-12-28, 04:08 PM
You know... you should probably warn your players not to read when you're giving away that kind of setting info Shinken.... I don't metagame as a rule, but still.

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 04:46 PM
While that makes the production-time and output better, it doesn't address the fact that hardly anyone will actually be buying the stuff. So you're just making even more items no one can afford.

Well, mundane and weaker magical items will still be made, plus some of this output won't be sold, it'll be used to secure the factory-city. Perhaps to train and equip a military force (constructs, perhaps. Warforged if the city has plot power) so they actually have some military force.

(I'm going to be using something like this when I get around to doing the setting I've been thinking about)

BridgeCity
2010-12-28, 05:24 PM
Well, mundane and weaker magical items will still be made, plus some of this output won't be sold, it'll be used to secure the factory-city. Perhaps to train and equip a military force (constructs, perhaps. Warforged if the city has plot power) so they actually have some military force.

(I'm going to be using something like this when I get around to doing the setting I've been thinking about)

I like it, though I'd be worried if I was the City ruler and ultimately one man was responsible for equipping my army. What sort of checks would you put in place?

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 05:39 PM
I like it.

Yeah, most constructs can take on multiple standard enemy soldiers pretty easily. Highish AC (since normal troops won't really get touch attacks), DR (again, basic troops likely won't get the special materials or enchantments needed to get through DR) and quite a bit of HP means they'll have trouble doing much to it. Sure, there will be less golems than enemy troops, but since the enemy will be relying on crits mostly to do anything noticeable and the constructs can be topped up with Repair spells, it'll work well. Really, siege weaponry (packing enough damage to overpower DR) and mass volleys (hoping to get enough lucky crits in to do some damage, probably with thrown weapons or crossbowmen with Crossbow Sniper to maximise potential damage) are the only way for mundane troops to deal with them. Only casters that the enemy army have would have a hope of killing them if they used Orbs and the like.

So, linking this to the topic of the thread, watch out for artificers. They'll be probably the only things (not sure if there are other ways of making magic items without the spells) capable of making high powered magic items and constructs in your setting, which could shift the balance in their favour.

EDIT:
I like it, though I'd be worried if I was the City ruler and ultimately one man was responsible for equipping my army. What sort of checks would you put in place?

Nah, in my imagined factory-city's army, the rulers of the city and the powerful artificers are one and the same.

awa
2010-12-28, 05:58 PM
constructs are immune to crits under normal circumstances so the better golems are all but immune to normal troops.

edit so any golem clay or better (dr10) is completely immune to massed archery
by normal warriors

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 06:00 PM
constructs are immune to crits under normal circumstances so the better golems are all but immune to normal troops

Y'know, when I was thinking about it earlier (and had a little trial run with a Fang Golem vs. Orc warriors) I took that into consideration and was a part of my ideas. I just forgot about that when I posted everything.

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 06:43 PM
3) Klarf the Archmage (our resident 'ultimate arcanist') will scry for you, have a nice long shot with you about how you shouldn't do this, advice you to hide from the yuan-ti and the Azure Empire. All while he tries to trick you and take that away from you. (btw, Klarf was a player character :smalltongue:)

Klarf. Really. How do your other players not stop the game for several minutes by laughing at this when they do find out about him? :smallconfused:

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 06:44 PM
Klarf. Really. How do your other players not stop the game for several minutes by laughing at this when they do find out about him? :smallconfused:

Perhaps that's the plan. Laughing people can't defend themselves well :smallamused:

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 06:46 PM
Perhaps that's the plan. Laughing people can't defend themselves well :smallamused:

You can't really narrate things if no one is listening either. :smalltongue:

I mean, unless you're admitting to being BRIAN BLESSED! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrianBlessed)

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 06:47 PM
You can't really narrate things if no one is listening either. :smalltongue:

I mean, unless you're admitting to being BRIAN BLESSED! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrianBlessed)

Y'know, I always try to get at least one person who talks like him in every setting. Of course, it depends on the setting what exactly the character is (in one it's a demon of change)

Chilingsworth
2010-12-29, 10:48 AM
Are there Healers (the Miniatures Handbook class) and Archivists in your world? If there are healers, they get the spells Greater Restoration, and Regenerate as sixth-level spells. They also get those spells as 1/day SLA's. Lastly, they get True Ressurection as a 1/week SLA for their capstone.
If Archivists exist, they can get Greater Restoration and Regenerate as per the healer spell list (if healers also exist). They could also use the handful of spells that appear on domain lists at lower than normal level. (I think there are some, aren't there?)

One possible consequence of your setting would be to make healers somewhat more useful. If nothing else, you could have one as an "old wise woman" the party goes to when they really need a true ressurection. It'd take some kind of terrible quest, for the forces of Good (healers must be good) but they could get their friend back.

true_shinken
2010-12-29, 01:26 PM
You know... you should probably warn your players not to read when you're giving away that kind of setting info Shinken.... I don't metagame as a rule, but still.
Oopsie. Sorry. ^^


Klarf. Really. How do your other players not stop the game for several minutes by laughing at this when they do find out about him? :smallconfused:
I don't get it. Maybe it's some american culture joke?



Are there Healers (the Miniatures Handbook class) and Archivists in your world?
Healers and Archivists both exist, but they're both very rare. Healers having true ressurrection is fine by me, since finding one is a quest by itself. Archivists are not a problem - mr. archivist needs to find a Healer with Scribe Scroll to write him a scroll before he adds it to his prayerbook.

Godskook
2010-12-29, 01:51 PM
Healers and Archivists both exist, but they're both very rare. Healers having true ressurrection is fine by me, since finding one is a quest by itself. Archivists are not a problem - mr. archivist needs to find a Healer with Scribe Scroll to write him a scroll before he adds it to his prayerbook.

Nitpick: The Archivist can have the scribe scroll part, or he can find a Warlock with a crafting bend(to fill all his scroll needs).

true_shinken
2010-12-29, 02:05 PM
Nitpick: The Archivist can have the scribe scroll part, or he can find a Warlock with a crafting bend(to fill all his scroll needs).

How can an archivist write a scroll of a spell he doesn't know?

Urpriest
2010-12-29, 02:06 PM
How can an archivist write a scroll of a spell he doesn't know?

They can collaborate on an item, one doing the crafting and the other providing the spell.

true_shinken
2010-12-29, 02:22 PM
They can collaborate on an item, one doing the crafting and the other providing the spell.
Oooh, I see.
Still, finding a high level Warlock/Artificer/Healer willing to do this might be veyr hard.

Godskook
2010-12-29, 02:33 PM
Oooh, I see.
Still, finding a high level Warlock/Artificer/Healer willing to do this might be veyr hard.

Nitpick: Artificers can't make divine(or arcane) scrolls

thorgrim29
2010-12-29, 02:47 PM
Sure they can, they use UMD to emulate knowing the spell, it's even in the description of their item creation class feature.

Urpriest
2010-12-29, 02:54 PM
Sure they can, they use UMD to emulate knowing the spell, it's even in the description of their item creation class feature.

If you're talking about Artificers, the errata is very specific on this: Artificers' scrolls are neither arcane nor divine, and cannot be used to learn spells.

thorgrim29
2010-12-29, 03:10 PM
Huh... didn't know that

Tyndmyr
2010-12-29, 03:11 PM
As some of you might know, in my world spells are capped at 6th level save by rare items and extensive research.
It just occured to me I never asked the playground about this. What would be the impact of this on your standard D&D setting?
So far, it made little to no different, really (aside from making people who are really dead stay dead).

It's less of a deal than many would assume at first glance. There's enough fun toys at 6th level and lower to occupy many a mage with getting more.

Now, how do you handle levels in full casters that grant higher level slots? Same as normal, just can't pick 7+ spells as automatically known? I see no real problems with this.

One other nitpick. Casters can cooperate on scrolls. So, the person knowing spell x needn't be the same person that knows scribe scroll. This shouldn't be a big balance issue, though.