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faith
2010-12-26, 02:42 PM
So im playing with a new dnd group and apparentley the dm is hardcore. so everyone likes to optimize (not t.o. or infinite loops and stuff like that).
i however have very little expirience optimizing. So here i am asking for help.
we are starting at level 5 and my rolls were: 18 15 15 15 13 10
i'd like to play a wizard or a bard-esque character and would appericiate any suggestions on optimization.
help please?

Godskook
2010-12-26, 02:46 PM
Obligatory links:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

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That done, a focused specialist conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt is going to be *REALLY* hard to kill, and for his power level, a battefield-control wizard is welcomed in most parties.

Salanmander
2010-12-26, 03:28 PM
we are starting at level 5 and my rolls were: 18 15 15 15 13 10
i'd like to play a wizard or a bard-esque character and would appericiate any suggestions on optimization.
help please?

If you're interested in the trickstery aspects of bard, you may want to look into beguiler. They're full arcane casters, and they cast spontaneously from their entire spell list, which is made up of mostly illusion/enchantment spells. They also get a lot of rogue-like sneaky abilities.

There are two main reasons I recommend them. First, they make good use of many high ability scores, as int and dex are both very important for them, as is cha if you want to do social interaction with them (which they can be pretty good at).

The other, probably more important reason, is they're /really/ hard to screw up. Because they cast spontaneously from their entire spell list, you don't have the problem of "i chose bad spells for my sorcerer". You don't even have the problem of "i prepared bad spells today". At any time you can be like "hey, this isn't working like i wanted, i'll switch the spells i'm casting". This makes it seem ideal for someone with little optimization experience in a moderately high optimization party.

That said, their max power level is definitely lower than that of a wizard. If your group does very strong optimization, you may start to feel overshadowed. But I haven't heard of many groups that are /that/ heavily optimized, even when it's a self-professed high optimization group.

Jack DeCoeur
2010-12-26, 04:11 PM
I'd definitely +1 the beguiler idea. That being said however, make sure you chat to your DM first; if the campaign is very Construct or Mindless Undead heavy then the beguiler's focus on Enchantment and Illusions can prove to be a bit of a hinderance.

You said you're new to optimising, but, by the looks of it, not 3.5 in general? What sort of stuff have you played before, and what did you have fun with. Optimising is all very well, but if you're not enjoying playing your character then you've kind of defeated the object of the game. Although, having a highly optimised being of nigh unstoppable power can be pretty fun in and of itself, as long as the DM can still challenge you of course. :smallbiggrin:

mootoall
2010-12-26, 04:19 PM
Hmm, what kind of bard-y character? Face, buff, melee, skills ...

I personally like going melee bard, Silverbrow Human for the skill points and dragonblood subtype, allowing for Dragonfire Inspiration stuff. Xd6 extra fire damage where X is your Inspire Courage bonus. Get Snowflake War Dance for Cha to damage(?) and go to town with something like a longspear. Take some Sublime Chord for 9th level spells, there's not many ways you can go wrong!

Mordokai
2010-12-26, 04:23 PM
Just to kindly fix the esteemed colegue one post higher, Snowflake Wardance adds charisma bonus to attack, not damage. Otherwise, their advice is a sound one.

DementedFellow
2010-12-26, 04:25 PM
Also Snowflake Wardance applies to slashing weapons, not piercing, like the longspear.

Siosilvar
2010-12-26, 04:26 PM
Just to kindly fix the esteemed colegue one post higher, Snowflake Wardance adds charisma bonus to attack, not damage. Otherwise, their advice is a sound one.

And only works with one-handed or light slashing weapons. 'twould be a strange longspear indeed.

Godskook
2010-12-26, 04:27 PM
Hmm, what kind of bard-y character? Face, buff, melee, skills ...

I personally like going melee bard, Silverbrow Human for the skill points and dragonblood subtype, allowing for Dragonfire Inspiration stuff. Xd6 extra fire damage where X is your Inspire Courage bonus. Get Snowflake War Dance for Cha to damage(?) and go to town with something like a longspear. Take some Sublime Chord for 9th level spells, there's not many ways you can go wrong!

And then take draconic heritage for sonic or force damage, if we're going hi-ops.

Snowflake War Dance adds Cha on your to-hit rolls, not damage, and it is one of the rare stat-to-tohit feats that isn't a replacement effect. It *stacks* with Str(or Dex with Weapon Finesse)

Reynard
2010-12-26, 04:30 PM
I'd definitely +1 the beguiler idea. That being said however, make sure you chat to your DM first; if the campaign is very Construct or Mindless Undead heavy then the beguiler's focus on Enchantment and Illusions can prove to be a bit of a hinderance.

Actually, Mindless makes illusions even better, since it's impossible for them to disbelieve them.

Mordokai
2010-12-26, 04:31 PM
And only works with one-handed or light slashing weapons. 'twould be a strange longspear indeed.

Well, of course. Being bard is all about style and lets be honest, you can't be very stylish with a longspear. Now, a longsword...

mootoall
2010-12-26, 04:31 PM
Just to kindly fix the esteemed colegue one post higher, Snowflake Wardance adds charisma bonus to attack, not damage. Otherwise, their advice is a sound one.

Yeah, that was the point of the question mark next to "damage".


Also Snowflake Wardance applies to slashing weapons, not piercing, like the longspear.

Ah, didn't remember that bit. Going off memory's not a great idea :smallwink:

Still, just grab yourself a longsword and go to town then. No reach, but significant damage.

Coidzor
2010-12-26, 05:33 PM
Whipdagger is, I believe, slashing, but doesn't threaten. And bards get it along with whips.

Kusari-gama (DMG) on the other hand, that does threaten and has reach and is slashing. But would require Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Same with the Spinning Sword from Secrets of Sarlona.

Vistella
2010-12-26, 05:40 PM
I personally like going melee bard, Silverbrow Human for the skill points ...

silverbrow humans dont get the extra skillopint though

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-26, 06:11 PM
If you go Bard, do some searching for 'optimizing inspire courage'

Also, if you have access to Tome of Battle, Book of Nine Swords, I would strongly suggest, for your Bard, to go Bard4/Warblade2/War Chanter10/Warblade4

You get some very nice stuff here, giving the party a handful of d6's in melee damage, with the War Chanter's ability to pump two songs, you can literally have both Inspire Courage and DFI going for some serious buffage. Plus, with Inspire Legion, all your other 3/4 BAB striker type classes suddenly are rocking some major BAB bonuses that grant iterative attacks.

YMMV, but this is a very fun build.

If you are wanting to go the other route, of course, simply go Wizard6/Incantatrix10/who cares as long as it progresses spellcasting 4 and completely win the game.

mootoall
2010-12-26, 06:17 PM
silverbrow humans dont get the extra skillopint though

Feat. That's what I meant. Feat.

Elric VIII
2010-12-26, 06:24 PM
Just something to think about, Beguiler can enter into Prestige bard from Unearthed Arcana. It has 15 levels and partial spell progression.

It loses 4 caster levels, so it would be a good idea to break out after the 2nd or 3rd loss, so you can get 9th level spells. They lose a caster level at class level 1, 3, 7, and 13.

gorfnab
2010-12-26, 10:37 PM
More obligatory links

Bard Handbook
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=pr9a959io89rrml6ph81umdl63&topic=8284.0)
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

Beguiler Handbook
(http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0)

Incanur
2010-12-26, 11:10 PM
While I love the beguiler at least as much as everybody else, 5 is a sad level for that class while being an awesome level for the wizard. As long as its not a one-shot or brief campaign, this isn't a big deal but it's something to consider. You've got sold stats, you should be fine in any case.

For the wizard go 10|15|15|18|15|13 and be a focused specialist conjurer 3/master specialist 2. Ban enchantment, evocation, and necromancy (abjuration if you feel brave). Dominate the battlefield with spells like stinking cloud, glitterdust, and grease. Use the abrupt jaunt ACF to avoid charges.

For beguiler, either put the 15 into Cha or leave it Wis for Arcane Disciple to expand your spell list. The bloodline feats from Dragon Magazine Compendium can also accomplish this goal.