(3.5) Idea for a unique campaign, looking for tips/critique.

[Masaioh]

I recently got an idea for a campaign where the players are sort of in-universe DMs, perhaps gods, who compete to create the most challenging dungeon complex. For the most part, said idea is in it's infancy. So far, the underlying reason for doing so is entertainment.

They will all command a party of adventurers (i am unsure of exactly how many) to complete the opponent's dungeons in turn (the players will take direct control in this case, rather than attempt to coerce the characters). The 'gods' themselves will not directly interfere to hinder the parties.

Perhaps it is the stress of Christmas, but I have found myself creatively bankrupt as of late.

[Godskook]

D&D seems ill-suited to this task

[bokodasu]

They will all command a party of adventurers (i am unsure of exactly how many) to complete the opponent's dungeons in turn (the players will take direct control in this case, rather than attempt to coerce the characters). The 'gods' themselves will not directly interfere to hinder the parties.

You'd need
*Some sort of limitation/guidelines on the dungeon design
*Players who were into dungeon design
OR
One of those auto-generating dungeon programs. There are a few around the web, I'm sure people can link you to them.

I'd say "assembled" rather than "commanded" the party of adventurers - that way people can play what they like. Plus it would be funny if it was the same party in every dungeon (minus the character running it for that turn). Or do it jury-selection style, where each god gets to nix one character or something.

I think it sounds fun, if your players are into that sort of thing. If not, it could be a disaster on wheels.

[Masaioh]

You'd need
*Some sort of limitation/guidelines on the dungeon design
*Players who were into dungeon design
OR
One of those auto-generating dungeon programs. There are a few around the web, I'm sure people can link you to them.

I'd say "assembled" rather than "commanded" the party of adventurers - that way people can play what they like. Plus it would be funny if it was the same party in every dungeon (minus the character running it for that turn). Or do it jury-selection style, where each god gets to nix one character or something.

I think it sounds fun, if your players are into that sort of thing. If not, it could be a disaster on wheels.

Assembled, commanded, same difference. The idea was for each player to make a DM and 4-player party. That's what I decided on, I guess. The DMs will obviously have to follow a limited budget, something like 15 mil, as well as a limit in creature hit die/combined CR. It would be played with everyone in the group having DM experience.

[EccentricCircle]

that does sound fun

how would you assess which dungeon was the best?
I believe that some tournements have been held where players have to survive a challenging dungeon, but assessing which DM wins on body counts alone might not be the best stratagy.
prehaps each player should also rank the dungeons from the one they found most challenging to least (the dungeons that they had played through of course, not the one they DM'd)
i'd think that you would have to have the same PC's going through each in order for it to be fair.

all in all it sounds like a great idea. I hope it goes well.

[Masaioh]

that does sound fun

how would you assess which dungeon was the best?
I believe that some tournements have been held where players have to survive a challenging dungeon, but assessing which DM wins on body counts alone might not be the best stratagy.
prehaps each player should also rank the dungeons from the one they found most challenging to least (the dungeons that they had played through of course, not the one they DM'd)
i'd think that you would have to have the same PC's going through each in order for it to be fair.

all in all it sounds like a great idea. I hope it goes well.

Body counts is a horrible idea, I agree. I was thinking of evaluating dungeons in terms of how long it takes the party to complete, and particularly frustrating encounters would add to the overall score.

EDIT: I've thought of some specifics:

21st ECL party of 4. Average CR for Dungeon encounters will be 22-25, with a max total CR between all monsters, traps etc. of 300. Dungeon budget will be 20 mil and party budget will be 10 mil (they will need it).

[grimbold]

this sounds pretty cool, just be prepared to be flexible the players when creating may miss a couple of specifics so just be ready to roll with it.
asides from needing some flexibility this seems like a great idea
have fun

[BobVosh]

The problem with this is optimizing CR is much easier than optimizing characters. You can easily make TPKs without trying very hard and sit within those CRs.

[Calmar]

You could also, like, take turns in DMing... Then everyone gets the chance to play a 'god' whose challenge must be beaten. :smallconfused:

[Masaioh]

The problem with this is optimizing CR is much easier than optimizing characters. You can easily make TPKs without trying very hard and sit within those CRs.

My players have built 21st level characters without templates that can solo things up to CR 25, more than one at a time, without a scratch on themselves. I anticipate having to step up my game a bit, and TPKs will probably be nigh-impossible when following these rules even if each encounter is composed of multiple epic wizards.

EDIT: Which is why anything above Rogue level/whatever the tier equivalent is will be banned for parties. I don't want parties of Tier 0 characters.

[The Glyphstone]

Step 1: Ban Epic magic.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Maybe not profit, but at least there will be a Step 3.

That said, it could be a fun premise for a game, as the players try to outdo each other with the most elaborate deathtraps and encounters.

[Godskook]

EDIT: Which is why anything above Rogue level/whatever the tier equivalent is will be banned for parties. I don't want parties of Tier 0 characters.

Bubs the Commoner counts as a tier 4, level 4, build with 3 levels of commoner.

I'll tell yeah, though, that having CR 16+ dinosaurs at one's beck and call tends to move you up a notch.

[Masaioh]

Bubs the Commoner counts as a tier 4, level 4, build with 3 levels of commoner.

I'll tell yeah, though, that having CR 16+ dinosaurs at one's beck and call tends to move you up a notch.

Bubs the Commoner? Is that some build that was posted here?

Epic magic is not as intimidating as intended when characters have access to constant magic immunity as an extraordinary ability by 25th. On top of that each char will have 2.5 mil. I can use the fixes I have created for epic magic to make spells harder to create (they also address the chain-gating solars problem), but if I have to ban epic magic I will have to ban some melee classes as well.

[The Glyphstone]

Bubs the Commoner? Is that some build that was posted here?

Epic magic is not as intimidating as intended when characters have access to constant magic immunity as an extraordinary ability by 25th. On top of that each char will have 2.5 mil. I can use the fixes I have created for epic magic to make spells harder to create (they also address the chain-gating solars problem), but if I have to ban epic magic I will have to ban some melee classes as well.

Eh, there's nothing any epic melee can accomplish that even comes close to the abusiveness of Epic Spellcasting at its unbound potential - though if you intend to be the 'UltraDM', the arbiter that the sub-DMs have to approve their Epic spells with, you can probably get away with it. Epic Magic is just fundamentally unworkable though, in how it's either DC0 Destroy-the-universe-as-a-free-action overpowered or Spend-half-a-million-gold-to-replicate-Meteor-Swarm weaksauce.

Banning it is as much a function of simplicity as power...leave it in, and your players will dump all their gold into Epic Spell Of Doom research, and you'll spend more time adjucating/approving/rejecting their creations than actually playing the game. The Tier 1 Epic Wizards, Epic Clerics, and Epic Druids will be absurdly broken enough, they don't need the help.

[Cerlis]

One of the major factors of this, i think, is essentially for each "god" to take on an avatar, possibly generated by the person running that particular dungeon. Essentially its like "Here is my project, here are the tools to complete the project. Lets see if you can complete it before time runs out."

[Masaioh]

Eh, there's nothing any epic melee can accomplish that even comes close to the abusiveness of Epic Spellcasting at its unbound potential - though if you intend to be the 'UltraDM', the arbiter that the sub-DMs have to approve their Epic spells with, you can probably get away with it. Epic Magic is just fundamentally unworkable though, in how it's either DC0 Destroy-the-universe-as-a-free-action overpowered or Spend-half-a-million-gold-to-replicate-Meteor-Swarm weaksauce.

Banning it is as much a function of simplicity as power...leave it in, and your players will dump all their gold into Epic Spell Of Doom research, and you'll spend more time adjucating/approving/rejecting their creations than actually playing the game. The Tier 1 Epic Wizards, Epic Clerics, and Epic Druids will be absurdly broken enough, they don't need the help.

Which is why I will not be using any Wizards melee classes except as dips. They are, for the most part, pathetic. DnD wiki content and some of my group's homebrew will serve as an adequate replacement. I plan on making epic spells bigger money sinks to make up for melee's gear-dependency by using alternate mitigation and research rules, and I will lay out a few basic rules to render case-by-case rulings unnecessary. This is to lower the versatility that makes epic casters so powerful, and to make sure that they only create a couple of epic spells per caster.

The DM-characters will have epic levels and divine ranks. The point is that they are ludicrously broken for the sake of verisimilitude.

[The Glyphstone]

Normally I'd keel over in hysterics at the idea of D&DWiki being an appropriate substitute...but this is Epic play. It can't possibly be more broken/unbalanced than the existing Wizards material, and with the sheer amount of stuff, very likely you will end up with a more balanced game in the end.

The more homebrew you use, though, the less good advice/tips we can give, since we don't know what will be available.

[Masaioh]

Normally I'd keel over in hysterics at the idea of D&DWiki being an appropriate substitute...but this is Epic play. It can't possibly be more broken/unbalanced than the existing Wizards material, and with the sheer amount of stuff, very likely you will end up with a more balanced game in the end.

The more homebrew you use, though, the less good advice/tips we can give, since we don't know what will be available.

I fail to see why DnD Wiki is the butt of jokes on these boards. The ratio of good:bad content is not far from Wizards' own, you just need to know where to look. For example: Frank and K. Also, the content is, for the most part, intended for high-OP play (Google Rithaniel for the most extreme), and I realize that many groups want to avoid that.

[OracleofWuffing]

You might want to see if you can find and pick around the XCrawl campaign setting by... I think Goodman Games owns it now? Anyhow, the "Draw" in that setting is that the PC's are on a team that plays for an audience's entertainment, and that they're playing against a "Dungeon Judge" character that actually designs the dungeon.