JRPGs you say

[king.com]

So I've got a bit of time on my hands and someone advised me to go play a JRPG (since im a lover of longer games) and as someone who has not played many (I'll say this up front, I've not enjoyed things like final fantasy) and of those enjoyed even less.

Story/characters being the most important thing in an RPG for me, though solid strategic combat definitely helps.

I have a PC and an Xbox 360 but much prefer to use a PC.

References for RPGs I've loved would be things like the Baldur's Gate series (being my standard by which i judge the quality of things), didnt think Dragon Age was too bad either but not exactly baldurs gate. You could probably put Bioware RPGs for the most part. Enjoyed the old Ultima games, Planescape Torment, Fallout 1 + 2 (New Vegas was alright but felt Fallout 3 was very lackluster).

Watched the Giant Bomb endurance run of Persona 4 and that looked like some enjoyment could be had, though its not an accurate representation of the game by any standards.


Didn't think very highly of the Witcher but the frequent crashes didn't help its case.


Thats what I can think of off the top of my head, any suggestions or further information I should provide let me know.

[Otogi]

If you're okay with using an emulator, try Earthbound or another Shin Megami Tensei game. I've quite a lot fun with the latter!

[king.com]

If you're okay with using an emulator, try Earthbound or another Shin Megami Tensei game. I've quite a lot fun with the latter!

Can you tell me a bit more about it? Like whats its strengths and weaknessess are?

[Trazoi]

The two JRPGs I've played on the Xbox 360 are Eternal Sonata and Tales of Vesperia. Eternal Sonata was pretty but linear, has an interesting premise (Chopin is dying of tuberculosis and has retreated into an internal fantasy world - or has he?) but ultimately it wasn't that engaging and I didn't get very far before I got bored. Tales of Vesperia on the other hand was a solid JRPG title that I enjoyed playing all the way through. The Tales series have action battles and the ones I've played don't go overboard with loads and loads of characters. However it is a JRPG and thus practically a different genre altogether from WRPGs like Baldur's Gate.

On the PC I haven't got any JRPGs that aren't quite old so might be hard to find. Septerra Core didn't engage me as well as it could have. Although it was a flaky port I enjoyed the PC port of Grandia II. And I think that's all unless you count a few indie Princess Maker style RPGs.

[king.com]

Im aware that there is a massive distinction between WRPGS and JRPGs but was just using them as a example of what I like about role playing games, strong character interaction and narrative aswell as a great combat system.

Difficulty of the consoles is that its very difficult to get a cheap copy even if its of a really old game while on PC its relatively easy.

[Tengu_temp]

The best jRPG for the PC is probably Final Fantasy 7. It's a classic, greatly overrated by its fans, but still a very good game. The problem is that it has problems working on many new computers, even with the official Windows XP patch.

For the X-Box, Final Fantasy 13 is awesome. I'm currently playing it on my newly-acquired PS3 and having a blast. It's a fairly linear game, but the characters and story are very interesting, the gameplay is fast and fun, and the visuals and music are top notch.

If you manage to get your hands on some SNES games and a way to play them, you absolutely have to play Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger. They're such classics I just can't find the words on how to recommend them.

[Ogremindes]

...strong character interaction and narrative aswell as a great combat system.

Then try Persona 3 (FES version is best IMO, but P3P adds more content) or Persona 4. As you'd be aware from watching a playthrough, character interaction is a major part of these games.

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor may also be of interest. It's a tactical RPG with meaningful decisions that take you down different storyline paths.

Since I've already talked about three Shin Megami Tensei games, I may as well mention the others I've played:

Digital Devil Saga and DDS2 are (or rather is, they're essentially two parts to one game) the only 'standard' JRPGs of the lot. You have a set roster of characters which you develop as you progress the story. Character interactions only have minor effects.

Nocturne (Lucifer's Call in PAL regions) may be of interest. While interaction with the main cast is limited, you negotiate with demons to get them to join your team.

Finally, Strange Journey, like Nocturne, relies on a demon negotiation mechanic.

Most of these games (not Strange Journey) use some variant on the 'Press Turn' system, which rewards hitting weaknesses with extra turns, but punishes mistakes with loosing turns.

The Shin Megami Tensei series is some of my favourite games. I definitely recommend them as good console RPGs.

[Tengu_temp]

Then try Persona 3 (FES version is best IMO, but P3P adds more content) or Persona 4. As you'd be aware from watching a playthrough, character interaction is a major part of these games.


He doesn't have a PS2. Which is a pity, those are some of the best RPGs ever.

[Ogremindes]

He doesn't have a PS2. Which is a pity, those are some of the best RPGs ever.

Heh:smallredface:. Reading fail.

[Shpadoinkle]

Rudra no Hihou, a.k.a. Treasure of the Rudras. It's a 1996 SNES RPG by Square that was never officially translated or released outside of Japan.

It's important to understand this right now: Yes, the art style is VERY similar to Final Fantasy 6 (which, incidentally, is also a really good game), but plays almost nothing like it. While FF6 had the ATB system, Rudra is turn-based like the Dragon Quest games (also good, but not to everyone's taste.)

The game wouldn't be especially remarkable, except for two things:
- It has three scenarios, which you can switch between any time.
- You can scribe your own mantras (spells.)

Basically, magic in the game is a modular system, so you can mix and match root words, prefixes, and suffixes as you like. The base spell IG, for instance, does a small amount of fire damage to one target, but adding the suffix NA (making it IGNA) makes it do slightly less damage and raises the MP cost, but now it hits all enemies. The prefix VU won't change the effect of the spell, but it'll make it do more damage (but again, it'll cost more MP,) and so on. You can even repeat modifiers (VUVUIG, for instance, is valid and does more damage than VUIG, but the MP cost for the VU prefix is added twice.)

There are at least two versions of the translation patch. The first seems to have a couple bugs the other doesn't- it's easy to tell which version you have. When you're starting a scenario there are quotes at the bottom of the screen. If Sion's quote is something like 'To become the best...,' then you have the earlier version. If it's "I'll become the greatest warrior ever!" (including quote marks) you have the more recent patch.

[Cogwheel]

Rudra no Hihou, a.k.a. Treasure of the Rudras. It's a 1996 SNES RPG by Square that was never officially translated or released outside of Japan.

It's important to understand this right now: Yes, the art style is VERY similar to Final Fantasy 6 (which, incidentally, is also a really good game), but plays almost nothing like it. While FF6 had the ATB system, Rudra is turn-based like the Dragon Quest games (also good, but not to everyone's taste.)

The game wouldn't be especially remarkable, except for two things:
- It has three scenarios, which you can switch between any time.
- You can scribe your own mantras (spells.)

Basically, magic in the game is a modular system, so you can mix and match root words, prefixes, and suffixes as you like. The base spell IG, for instance, does a small amount of fire damage to one target, but adding the suffix NA (making it IGNA) makes it do slightly less damage and raises the MP cost, but now it hits all enemies. The prefix VU won't change the effect of the spell, but it'll make it do more damage (but again, it'll cost more MP,) and so on. You can even repeat modifiers (VUVUIG, for instance, is valid and does more damage than VUIG, but the MP cost for the VU prefix is added twice.)

There are at least two versions of the translation patch. The first seems to have a couple bugs the other doesn't- it's easy to tell which version you have. When you're starting a scenario there are quotes at the bottom of the screen. If Sion's quote is something like 'To become the best...,' then you have the earlier version. If it's "I'll become the greatest warrior ever!" (including quote marks) you have the more recent patch.

My god. Someone else has actually played this game? I'm in awe.

But yes, this. Fantastic game, which needs to be played. Tough as nails at times, mind.

[Dihan]

You could also try the Golden Sun series if you download a GBA or DS emulator. It's been ages since I played the first two games but I remember them fondly and right now I'm having a blast playing Dark Dawn.

[Otogi]

Can you tell me a bit more about it? Like whats its strengths and weaknessess are?

Well, have similar battle phases (enemy encased in letterbox, your party in the letterbox) and both have great stories, but that's all I could say are similar.

Earthbound is a very light-hearted game where you play a little boy from America Eagleland who sees a meteorite crash near his house, and upon investigating, finds a fly who tells him he has to save the world from an entity known as Giygas. He then goes on an adventure to save the world, meeting amazing characters, seeing absolutely weird locations, going through touching moments and hilarious...everything! If you're not convinced, this guy (http://www.retrowaretv.com/HappyVideoGameNerd/HVGNEpisode12/tabid/239/Default.aspx) does a brilliant tribute to the game.

Shin Megami Tensei is rather different (but something I'm better acquainted with). If the only Shin Megami Tensei game you've seen is Persona 4, then this is going to be even more different. You play as a teenage kid in modern day Tokyo. He has a completely different normal life, nothing really amazing. Until he has a dream of things of several strangers. The next day, he gets a very strange e-mail giving him program for his portable computer that allows him to summon and talk to demons. Things only get weirder as people start disappearing and he gets attacked by a demon. Soon he finds
Tokyo is under martial law by the Head General of Japan. As things start to unfold, he finds the city is in the middle of a fight between the forces of Law and Chaos and he must try to save everyone. The best way to describe it is a mix between Dragon Quest, Ultima and Pokemon, where you go through maze-like dungeons with a party of demons at your beck and call. But these aren't any ol' generic demons; they're actual figures from almost every major mythology, from Greek to Norse, from Japanese to Irish and even Judeo-Christian, all wanting to fight you and fight for you. Its a dark, complex and difficult game, but well worth the trouble you might encounter.

[king.com]

The best jRPG for the PC is probably Final Fantasy 7. It's a classic, greatly overrated by its fans, but still a very good game. The problem is that it has problems working on many new computers, even with the official Windows XP patch.

For the X-Box, Final Fantasy 13 is awesome. I'm currently playing it on my newly-acquired PS3 and having a blast. It's a fairly linear game, but the characters and story are very interesting, the gameplay is fast and fun, and the visuals and music are top notch.

If you manage to get your hands on some SNES games and a way to play them, you absolutely have to play Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger. They're such classics I just can't find the words on how to recommend them.

I played FF8 and found that to be perhaps one of the most painful games I have ever played, FF7 is radically different then?

With FF13, Xbox games arent cheap, is it really worth dropping potentially 100 dollars into it?

[JabberwockySupafly]

I played FF8 and found that to be perhaps one of the most painful games I have ever played, FF7 is radically different then?

With FF13, Xbox games arent cheap, is it really worth dropping potentially 100 dollars into it?

13's come down a fair bit in 'Straya :) (I'm a New South Welshman myself, I know how painful it is to buy console games in this land girt by sea). Your local EB games, should they still be running their Xmas sales (or their January sales) will probably have it for $45 or less Pre-Owned. That being said, not really all the great of a game in my opinion. Timewise? Yes, you can sink a lot of time into it. Storywise? No. The plot is relatively convoluted & doesn't do much to be innovative. Very pretty game, though.

You should also be able to find Eternal Sonata, Enchanted ARMs (so-so JRPG with an interesting grid-based combat system), Star Ocean 4 (Sorry, I love this game. Yes the story is cliche and the game is relatively short for a JRPG being about 35 hours not counting post-ending stuff, but it is incredibly FUN) as well as Lost Odyssey & Blue Dragon (two other decent "old school" JRPGs with some decent, engaging stories made by Mistwalker Studios, which was founded by Hironobu Sakaguchi, who directed or created some of the greatest JRPGs of many a childood) on the cheap ($20-$50) as well these days.

People seem to forgetting a very important question: Do you have Steam? If you do not, are you willing to download it? If the answer is Yes, then you've struck gold. Just go buy Reccetear from Steam for all of $10 right now (since AUD is currently on par with USD, it shouldn't cost you any more than the USD price tag). There's also a demo available of it, so you can try before you buy. It's a rather fun JRPG with some unusual & fun game mechanics in that you actually run an item shop in a city that happens to be a hub for Adventurers.

[Otogi]

I played FF8 and found that to be perhaps one of the most painful games I have ever played, FF7 is radically different then?

With FF13, Xbox games arent cheap, is it really worth dropping potentially 100 dollars into it?

Well, its interesting, the characters are cool and the combat is fun. The story tends to get overhyped, but the fact that it's like a standard JRPG fantasy story with a few shots of cyberpunk is at the very least something to check out. Check out a demo at the very least.

I really don't wanna go against Tengu, because he honestly feels like its a great game. And there are some pretty interesting ideas from what I heard, along with some fun stuff (Guy with a baby Chocobo in his afro! Goddesses that turn into motorcylces!, etc.). To be honest, though, it's divisive. People have called it one of the worst Final Fantasy games ever and would permanently cripple Square Enix. Of course, that's been happening since like VIII and even now it's wrong with XIV coming out, so nothing different there. On the other hand, this reaction came out en masse. Some people have really lashed out at this game, and of course the opposite. It's you're money, and its Tengu's word against mine, but I'd say hold off on it until you've explored some more JRPGs.

[Deme]

I played FF8 and found that to be perhaps one of the most painful games I have ever played, FF7 is radically different then?

Depends on what it was that made it painful for you. But there's a lot different. In fact, FF8 is hardly a good comparison for other Final Fantasy games, particurlarly in the "painful" department.

If you have a DS, you may want to check out the DS version of Chrono Trigger. It's not a long game... But it's very good. The characters are fun and lively, almost all of the few sidequests come with character developement, you've got a lot of endings to up the gameplay value... I've never tried the extra content, but heard it's pretty meh. It's a solid RPG, and one version of it or another should be in the library of anyone who's thinking about JRPGs.

[Terraoblivion]

I'd disagree the plot of FF13 is a standard JRPG plot, Otogi. While the overarching framework is when looked at in a very general sense, this is such a top-level matter that it is essentially meaningless. I'm talking on the level of "the main characters go through much trouble before finally facing the ultimately villain of the story", which really describes the majority of video game stories. Going more deeply into the plot, it is about the main characters being inexorably drawn towards their doom and the story is ultimately about how they choose to deal with that knowledge. Of course we aren't talking Camus or Sartre here, but we are talking about an existential plot about internal choice, rather than external conflict, which is fairly unusual.

However, it is true that it is divisive. I personally come down on the side thinking that it's awesome. The ending kinda sucks, but that's my only significant complaint about it. That being said a lot of people complain about the relative lack of customization and the strict linearity. I personally don't mind, it just reduces elements of most JRPGs that i consider to be annoying busywork getting in the way of the good stuff, the plot and the characters, often weakening the dramatic arc with awkward pauses. There have also been complaints about plot and characters, but as far as i can determine these mostly fall into three camps: impatience and giving up before reaching the point where you get answers, the general hostility and hatred that every Final Fantasy after VII faces from a subset of the fandom and, finally, refusal to calibrate expectations to the unusual nature of the story. Because the game really is unusual in many ways, which might put people wanting something familiar off.

As for general advice, if you only have a 360 and a PC, all i can really recommend is FF13 and emulating old SNES games. In part this is because i don't have a 360, but it is also because the two platforms are generally quite bad for the genre. The best platforms would be the DS and the PS2, both of which have tons and tons of great JRPGs.

[Zevox]

Your options are going to be quite limited with just a PC and 360. Japanese games getting released for the PC is extremely rare, and the 360 isn't exactly chock full of JRPGs either. My top recommendation for the 360 has already been mentioned, Tales of Vesperia. Great game, very good characters and story, very fun action-oriented combat. That's my personal favorite 360 game.

The other one I've played is Lost Odyssey. It's more or less a Final Fantasy game in all but name (created by the original creator of that series), except better than the actual Final Fantasy games I've played (4, 8-13 sans 11). While certainly not one of the best JRPGs I've played, as its story can be confusing and overly contrived at times, it's pretty good and worth a shot.

I know of a few other JRPGs on the 360, but due to not having played them, I can't say whether I'd recommend them. In case you'd be interested in looking them up yourself, those would be Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Resonance of Fate, Nier, Record of Agarest War, and The Last Remnant.

I would have to speak against Tenu Temp's recommendation of Final Fantasy 13 though. If story and characters are important to you, that is not a game you'll want to play. The characters are constantly overly melodramatic and annoying with only a couple of exceptions, the story is poorly told and difficult to keep track of, and the ending makes no sense at all. It has good combat, but that merely saves it from being terrible, it doesn't make it good.

Zevox

[Tengu_temp]

I played FF8 and found that to be perhaps one of the most painful games I have ever played, FF7 is radically different then?

FF8 is one of the worst Final Fantasy titles. FF7 is one of the best.


With FF13, Xbox games arent cheap, is it really worth dropping potentially 100 dollars into it?

100? You can buy a new copy for 25 dollars on ebay. For X-Box, not PS3.

I'd say there are two main categories of people who don't like FF13 - those who don't like jRPGs in general and complain about this game's linearity, and oldschool Final Fantasy who don't like how much it changed in comparison to previous titles.


The characters are constantly overly melodramatic and annoying with only a couple of exceptions, the story is poorly told and difficult to keep track of, and the ending makes no sense at all.

It's true that this game is very melodramatic - but pretty much every jRPG out there is. I didn't find any of the characters too annoying, except for when Snow makes bull-headed decisions without thinking and Hope is being an angsty kid - and you're supposed to find those moments annoying. And both of them get better. As for the story, just what exactly is so hard to keep track of? I didn't find it confusing at all, and even if you somehow get lost, you can always read the summary of the events that already happened. No comments on the ending, haven't reached that far yet.

[Terraoblivion]

While the characters might be melodramatic, a realistic portrayal would most likely result in either the plot being incomprehensible or an extreme amount of voice overs to show their inner struggle. People already complain that their motivations are hard to understand, even when they state them outright, a more subdued emotional register for them would make it even harder to tell.

As for the ending, i agree. It makes no sense, relies on deus ex machina and basically sucks. However, i also get a strong feeling that in the last moment some executive told them that they better give the game a happy end or else, so they had to put one together with limited time and resources. Because really, up until the second form of the final boss the plot had been firmly lodged in tragedy and heading straight towards that, then suddenly a bunch of poorly explained deus ex machina saves the day.

[Zevox]

It's true that this game is very melodramatic - but pretty much every jRPG out there is.
Nowhere near as much as FF13. Many of the characters in that game can't open their mouth without being melodramatic, the worst of them all being Snow and Hope. Really, only Sazh and Fang were fairly good, likable characters, and they both still had a terrible overly melodramatic scene to their names.


And both of them get better.
No, they don't. At all. They remain just as irritating right up through the end.


As for the story, just what exactly is so hard to keep track of?
They never bother explaining most of the aspects of the setting, meaning you can only understand it by reading the encyclopedia entries in the game, which is poor storytelling. Events up until the six party members finally join up together seem completely unrelated to each other or nearly anything else in the story. The characters outside of the main six, Lightning's sister, and one villain show up so rarely and are so indistinct that it becomes impossible to keep track of them. There are way too many flashbacks whose importance or lack thereof is very unclear and which are never referenced again. There's no overworld map or the like, making it impossible to keep track of where the characters are in relation to where they've been or where other characters are, so all the locations become a random jumble. Really, up until chapter 9 the whole thing is just a mess, and it doesn't get much better after chapter 9.


No comments on the ending, haven't reached that far yet.
For when you do finish it, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8535268&postcount=1) is a post I made right after beating the game, giving my overall opinion on it. I devote a full paragraph in the story section to asking questions about just what the nine hells actually happened in that ending. Yes, I watched the thing and I still have no clue what was going on.

Zevox

[Prime32]

My god. Someone else has actually played this game? I'm in awe.

But yes, this. Fantastic game, which needs to be played. Tough as nails at times, mind.I've played it too, though I didn't get very far. One of the awesome things was that enemies used the same phrasing system as you, so you could copy their incantations.

IIRC, no one's sure whether it or Chrono Trigger was the last RPG Square created for the SNES.

[Otogi]

I'd disagree the plot of FF13 is a standard JRPG plot, Otogi. While the overarching framework is when looked at in a very general sense, this is such a top-level matter that it is essentially meaningless. I'm talking on the level of "the main characters go through much trouble before finally facing the ultimately villain of the story", which really describes the majority of video game stories. Going more deeply into the plot, it is about the main characters being inexorably drawn towards their doom and the story is ultimately about how they choose to deal with that knowledge. Of course we aren't talking Camus or Sartre here, but we are talking about an existential plot about internal choice, rather than external conflict, which is fairly unusual

Oh no, I didn't say that! I meant Final Fantasy VII's story. Yeah, FF XIII's story strays a lot from the standard JRPG plot. My mind's a little fuzzy on the whole thing, but I remember looking over a synopsis and going through clips and, hey, pretty different!

[Terraoblivion]

Oh, i see, Otogi. I misunderstood you then. Yeah, FFVII is certainly a standard JRPG story that gets overhyped.


They never bother explaining most of the aspects of the setting, meaning you can only understand it by reading the encyclopedia entries in the game, which is poor storytelling. Events up until the six party members finally join up together seem completely unrelated to each other or nearly anything else in the story. The characters outside of the main six, Lightning's sister, and one villain show up so rarely and are so indistinct that it becomes impossible to keep track of them. There are way too many flashbacks whose importance or lack thereof is very unclear and which are never referenced again. There's no overworld map or the like, making it impossible to keep track of where the characters are in relation to where they've been or where other characters are, so all the locations become a random jumble. Really, up until chapter 9 the whole thing is just a mess, and it doesn't get much better after chapter 9.

So knowing exact spatial relationships and minutiae about the setting is vital to understand the plot? Because really if you pay attention during the actual plot the important parts do get explained and the spatial relationships don't matter. It is not a story about strategic maneuvering of troops or an epic journey with an exact goal, where those things would matter. The locations are ultimately just places for the plot to happen and are chosen more for their prettiness and how they relate to what the characters feel at the time.

Really most of these complaints come from a lack of recognition that the external world is not the central part of the story. It's about how the main characters deal with their curse and everything else is secondary to that.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

And now for something completely different. It's an indie JRPG localized by an indie localization company.

Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale (http://www.carpefulgur.com/recettear/)

The premise is simple, but innovative. The main character Recette is a little girl whose father left to go adventuring, and she's the only one around to repay the massive loan he racked up to do so. The loan-sharking comes at the hands of Tear, a fairy from the loan agency. Tear suggests that Recette start an item shop to repay the loan in bits and pieces. So she does.

You spend a good portion of the game doing two things: interacting with characters and managing your item shop so as to stay afloat and repay the loans. Success depends on selling to your customers at the right price, so that you not only get good profit but also bonus experience from nailing the prices they want to pay.

There's also a dungeon-crawling component of the game, which is the hack-and-slash bit. You hire an adventurer (as you befriend more and more adventurers, you can hire them out, though at the start you can only hire one) to crawl dungeons with you. You get dibs on any loot they pick up in the dungeon, which mostly consists of ingredients to fuse into magic items to sell. Very lucrative.

The characters and story are quite strong points of the game. You get to meet a very colorful cast in that little town, and the story is you uncovering the world around you, more or less. I do think there were some plot elements that could've been used (namely, snooty Alouette's Big Bash store), but the game is very good in how it weaves together the outside world with your day-to-day interactions.

It's going for $10 on Steam, or $20 at other digital download outlets. I'd say, give it a whirl. If you're not sure, try the demo. It lets you play an entire week in-game, as many times as you want.

[Zevox]

So knowing exact spatial relationships and minutiae about the setting is vital to understand the plot?
Perhaps you could argue that the map thing is unimportant, but it makes things that much more confusing by making the locations seem random and unrelated. But the setting, yes, you need to know about that, else you won't understand a damn thing that's going on. Without sufficient explanation of the fal'Cie and l'Cie, for instance, FF13's story becomes totally incoherent - and you only get anything close to an explanation of them from the encyclopedia, and even then some things are still never made clear. For instance, why do some crystallized l'Cie reawaken? Major plot device, never explained.


Because really if you pay attention during the actual plot the important parts do get explained and the spatial relationships don't matter. It is not a story about strategic maneuvering of troops or an epic journey with an exact goal, where those things would matter. The locations are ultimately just places for the plot to happen and are chosen more for their prettiness and how they relate to what the characters feel at the time.

Really most of these complaints come from a lack of recognition that the external world is not the central part of the story. It's about how the main characters deal with their curse and everything else is secondary to that.
And how the main characters deal with being l'Cie still makes for a very poor story. Everything is melodramatic, the characters never become interesting or endearing, just what l'Cie are and how they work is poorly explained, what the main characters are trying to do is poorly explained - the entire story is just plain a mess. If they were going for a character-driven story as you imply, they failed, terribly. Having characters wander about at random and whine melodramatically about things that are never fully explained does not make for a good story - to the contrary, it makes for a terrible one.

And really, if that's how they were trying to go about it, it's a bit of a pity. As I said in the post I linked in my last post, I did find the setting for the game interesting. It had the potential to tell good stories. But that potential was wasted.

Zevox

[Tengu_temp]

No, they don't. At all. They remain just as irritating right up through the end.

You must be easy to annoy, then, because they already got better for me.


They never bother explaining most of the aspects of the setting, meaning you can only understand it by reading the encyclopedia entries in the game, which is poor storytelling. Events up until the six party members finally join up together seem completely unrelated to each other or nearly anything else in the story. The characters outside of the main six, Lightning's sister, and one villain show up so rarely and are so indistinct that it becomes impossible to keep track of them. There are way too many flashbacks whose importance or lack thereof is very unclear and which are never referenced again. There's no overworld map or the like, making it impossible to keep track of where the characters are in relation to where they've been or where other characters are, so all the locations become a random jumble. Really, up until chapter 9 the whole thing is just a mess, and it doesn't get much better after chapter 9.

I didn't have any trouble keeping up with the story, concepts, characters or flashbacks so far, and reading the encyclopedia only provided me with some irrelevant data on minor NPCs - everything else written there, was either explicitly told or I figured out on my own already. Either I'm a genius, this game gets much more confusing and jumbled later, or all the people complaining about the confusing storyline didn't bother to pay any attention while playing.
The lack of map does not bother me. It's a game about people, not places, I don't need to know where the locations are. This game tells you "in order to reach Important Location X we need to pass through Wilderness Y" and that's good enough for me.

[Murdim]

Oh, i see, Otogi. I misunderstood you then. Yeah, FFVII is certainly a standard JRPG story that gets overhyped.
That's pretty unfair. FF7's story wasn't standard until FF7 came out. Also, the whole trend of saying that Final Fantasy VII is overrated has itself grown to unreasonable proportions, to the point that the game is hardly positively hyped anymore outside of the fandom.

[Zevox]

You must be easy to annoy, then, because they already got better for me.
Or perhaps you are just hard to annoy, considering most players seem to have come away from the game hating Hope in particular.

In any event, I've said my piece and linked to a lengthier review I gave of the game shortly after beating it already, so I'm going to stop commenting on it now. No need to derail a game recommendations thread like this further.

Zevox

[Tono]

Discussing how overhyped 7 is and how underloved 8 is(Maybe not here, but we do exist), is like beating a dead horse with a club made of dead horses.

As for what OP is looking for, I would also recommend you at least try Racettear, which is absolutely lovely and on sale while steam does its massive holiday thing (still got 5 days left of that).

On PC it may be hard to find but a lot of the Ys games have PC ports, but I can't vouch for them personally since I've only been told how good they are.
Same with the Last Remnant, heard about it, but have yet to play.

[Airk]

The Ys games are interesting, but most of the ones that have been localized are...really old and a little bit... simplistic, both in story and gameplay.

re: FF13 - I had less problem with the story and more problem with the storyTELLING. Namely the fact that you basically have to stop and read the synopsis after every major plot event because the events do such a terrible job of explaining what's going on by themselves, whereas the synopsis fills in all the background you don't have that makes things make sense. That's terrible game storytelling and there is really no excuse for it.

To go back and try to actually answer the OPs question: You're in a bad spot. You don't have good platforms for this sort of thing without dipping into the realm of semi-pirating via emulation.

The 360 has a small library of jRPGs ranging from terrible (Infinite Undiscovery) to slightly above average (Tales of Vesperia). If you're intent on picking up a game for this platform, it should be ToV.

The PC also has extremely slim pickings - and nothing that I can think of that is remotely current. Recettear is an excellent game, but it's not really what I'd recommend for someone who is really looking for a jRPG. It bucks too many conventions and plays too differently to really categorize. Still, I strongly recommend it for anyone who likes good games. Outside of that, there really isn't anything on the platform outside of the ancient FF7 port, the only slightly less ancient Grandia II port (Grandia II isn't bad, really. It might be worth grabbing if you can get it on the cheap.) and various emulated titles from the SNES/Genesis era, which are technically illegal to have if you don't own the cartridges.

[Tengu_temp]

Or perhaps you are just hard to annoy, considering most players seem to have come away from the game hating Hope in particular.

Not really, seeing that I am easy to be annoyed by characters in other games, like NWN2 or FF8. I'd say it's more of a matter of perspective - unlike many people, I can cut a normal kid caught in a terrible situation some slack and let him be angsty. Same deal with Shinji from Evangelion.

Back on topic. A PC game I haven't played myself, but heard a lot of good stuff about, is Anachronox. It's western-made, but its genre is jRPG for sure, and it takes place in a quirky science-fiction world filled with unusual creatures and places. Someone who actually played this game would have to give more info on it, but I know that I want to check it out myself one day.

[Inhuman Bot]

The Earthbound series is quite probably the best series of JRPGs out there. Seriously, play them. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

The much-celebrated SNES era brought us:

Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy 6
Lufia 2
Seiken Densetsu 3
Earthbound

I find you really just should try and play all of those. Each is awesome in its own way and they're all paragons of the genre. Of those series, FF4 and Seiken Densetsu 2 (US release is named "Secret of Mana") are also quite good but FF6 is the best Final Fantasy in my books and I do love Seiken Densetsu 3 over SD2.

[Mirrinus]

Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy 6
Lufia 2
Seiken Densetsu 3
Earthbound

Glad you mentioned these, as I've played all of them too. To be honest, I didn't like Lufia 2 very much, although I will acknowledge that it had the best puzzles out of the bunch (felt very Zelda-ish to me). I'm very happy to see that someone else remembers SD3, though, as that was definitely one of my favorites (I've probably played through that a dozen times by now).

As for SNES RPGs, I'd also like to make mention of Tales of Phantasia and Super Mario RPG. The former was absolutely revolutionary for its time, not to mention a remarkably long game for the SNES. The latter, well, it was just really silly and fun.

[Tengu_temp]

The best part of Lufia 2 was how self-aware many of the characters are. Their comments made it look like it was a real RPG group, where slightly bored players need to endure a rather cliche plot from the DM and comment on it a lot, but they stay because other than that the game is very fun. And yeah, it's a good game.

Seconding Tales of Phantasia. It's among my trinity of best SNES games, side by side with Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6. Harder to get than the other two though.

[Winthur]

Funny thing is, I don't quite understand the appeal of jRPGs.

I'm mostly pressing FIGHT and sometimes MAGIC whenever my FF4 party gets ambushed by a random encounter. Many boss fights can be won this way as well. Sometimes I get lost in the overhead world. Sometimes I get frustrated whenever one of those stupid monsters that cause 4 status effects at once with one little spell gets my Edge.

But I'm still having tremendous fun. :smalleek:

Anyone care to explain that?

[Tengu_temp]

I'd say "characters and story", but you're talking about FF4 so there must be another explanation.

The battle theme. Good battle themes can make a difference between a game where random encounters are boring and one where they never get old. Just look at Persona 4.

[Terraoblivion]

I'd agree with Tengu. Characters and story are the two most important parts of any JRPG and essentially what you play for. With a few exceptions the actual gameplay tends to be rather unimpressive, sometimes going as far as being almost torturously clunky and boring, so that isn't really what you play for. However, even games with terribly boring gameplay, like Suikoden V, can be excellent if the writing is good enough. I never got fatigued with cutscenes and wanted to get control when playing that, instead i got tired of the actual gameplay and wanted more cutscenes and i still enjoyed myself greatly playing the game. Music is also a big draw in many JRPGs, with Persona 3 and 4 as well as Final Fantasy being the best in that regard as far as i'm concerned.

[Eldariel]

I'd say "characters and story", but you're talking about FF4 so there must be another explanation.

...for whatever reason, this made me think of this:
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7030/heavenhell.jpg

[Trazoi]

Funny thing is, I don't quite understand the appeal of jRPGs.

I'm mostly pressing FIGHT and sometimes MAGIC whenever my FF4 party gets ambushed by a random encounter. Many boss fights can be won this way as well. Sometimes I get lost in the overhead world. Sometimes I get frustrated whenever one of those stupid monsters that cause 4 status effects at once with one little spell gets my Edge.

But I'm still having tremendous fun. :smalleek:

Anyone care to explain that?
For me it's the pacing. A good JRPG has characters I care about, on a current objective I care about, with enough variety in the mix of gameplay to story elements combined with acceptable production values that it doesn't grate. The overall stories themselves usually aren't fantastic - they are usually formulaic or have loads of plot holes - but I don't care if each individual moment of the story has enough of a hook to keep me interested.

The exception for me is the Final Fantasy series which I never got into due to the combat system. The whole combination of random battles that you can't see coming combined with a yawntastic turn-based system which rarely required much thought ruins it. (Although to be fair I've only played FF6 and a chunk of FF7, but given those games reputation I've extrapolated it to the rest of the series). For me the story isn't strong enough to make up for the chore of playing the game.

[Mewtarthio]

I know of a few other JRPGs on the 360, but due to not having played them, I can't say whether I'd recommend them. In case you'd be interested in looking them up yourself, those would be Blue Dragon, Eternal Sonata, Resonance of Fate, Nier, Record of Agarest War, and The Last Remnant.

Of those, I've only played Nier and Resonance of Fate. Nier has an amazing soundtrack, but unfortunately doesn't offer much else of value. I've had a lot of fun with RoF, but I should throw in a couple of warnings along with my recommendations. First: The game uses a ton of new mechanics. It makes for a unique playing experience, but it also gives the game kind of a steep difficulty curve. Second: The plot structure is... also unique. I'm well over halfway through the game, and the main characters still don't know who the villain is or what he's planning. That's not because he's a master of subtelty and misdirection, mind you: That's because their respective interests have never conflicted. The game is not slow-paced; it has decided to abandon all notion of pacing in favor of a more episodic structure. The characters are interesting enough to carry the story on their own, but don't go in expecting a plot.

[king.com]

So I finally got my hands on FF7 and got it going and to be perfectly honest im not seeing a lot to be desired here. The combat is extremely dull (the random fights when im trying to explore/figure out where to go is driving me insane) and im just spamming attack until they kill things. Though to be fair its no where near as painful as the stupid magic drawing thing FF8 made you do.

Im not very far in (blown up a couple of power plants, met much of the cast) so i assume stuff gets explained much later on but I'm not liking the characters very much, nobody seems to want to explain anything as to whats going on except that we have to go be terrorists to save the planet! I have no idea what this Materia stuff is yet apparently it gives you magic powers. Despite bragging about it on a regular basis, I have no idea who SOLDIER is (and i must say the scene loses all seriousness whenever someone says it). I can guess they are some kind of special ops unit or perhaps even a paramilitary organisation (since I've yet to hear about any kind of actual government existing with the only known authority figure being Shinra).

I put the game down when I met Aeris. I dropped literally hundreds of metres down and apparently landing on a flower bed meant i came out of it without so much as a scratch. I then fought off some guys called the Turks (and all I can think of is Scrubs now). Then get taken back to her place and shes willing to show me how to get back to Tifa's bar in the morning.

Thats a bit silly but ok. THEN the peanut sized brain that sits in clouds head decides that he should sneak out because its too dangerous for Aeris. TOO DANGEROUS? SHE HAS ADMITTED THAT SHE HAS REGULARLY ENCOUNTERED AND ESCAPED FROM AN ELITE COMMANDO SQUAD THATS BEEN TRYING TO HUNT HER DOWN AND THIS IS TOO DANGEROUS?

I closed the game and have unable to will myself to going back. Thoughts? I am giving up way too easily because personally I can see much of my gripes with the game reamining.

[Eldariel]

I put the game down when I met Aeris. I dropped literally hundreds of metres down and apparently landing on a flower bed meant i came out of it without so much as a scratch. I then fought off some guys called the Turks (and all I can think of is Scrubs now). Then get taken back to her place and shes willing to show me how to get back to Tifa's bar in the morning.

You're...well, let's just say you're not just a standard human. It's highly unlikely for you to die of anything short of pointblank nuclear explosion. That's not really a big deal IMHO.


Thats a bit silly but ok. THEN the peanut sized brain that sits in clouds head decides that he should sneak out because its too dangerous for Aeris. TOO DANGEROUS? SHE HAS ADMITTED THAT SHE HAS REGULARLY ENCOUNTERED AND ESCAPED FROM AN ELITE COMMANDO SQUAD THATS BEEN TRYING TO HUNT HER DOWN AND THIS IS TOO DANGEROUS?

Yeah well, see, that's pretty common in humans. Lots of people are perfectly willing to sacrifice themselves but entirely unwilling to risk anyone else's life even on their consent (particularly potential love interests'). It's...par de course far as male leads in RPGs in particular are concerned.


I closed the game and have unable to will myself to going back. Thoughts? I am giving up way too easily because personally I can see much of my gripes with the game reamining.

I think you're just thinking too much in real world terms and getting caught up on irrelevancies. All the stuff gets explained later, of course; FFs tend to start with main characters in the dark since if you knew the whole story from the start, the game would be kinda dull, wouldn't it? It's supposed to start of from obscurity where you can only throw wild guesses and as your characters find out more about what exactly they are up against and why they're fighting (aside from "having to 'cause someone has to"), well, things begin to make more sense. Just...try to dissociate real world rules from the game since fantasy worlds tend to follow very different rules. Hell, in combat, a person can be shot 100 times and still live.

It's just...it's gamism, really. If you don't let it get in the way, I do think the game would be very enjoyable. FF-type games really just don't work with "standard humans dying in one hit"-type combat since that would force a very complex combat system and really just change the focus of the games into "tactical war simulators" or something of the sort. All RPGs really fly in the face of that; in D&D 3.5 a high level Fighter can survive a 200000' fall pretty every time. It's not really anything but a combination of abstraction and said high level Fighter being superhuman in terms of everything. Most RPG characters tend to be like that, really. Though some are pretty logical.

[Zevox]

(the random fights when im trying to explore/figure out where to go is driving me insane)
If you don't like random encounters, you're going to have a problem with many JRPGs. Some use non-random encounters (the "Tales of" series being the most prominent I can think of), but most use random ones.

Zevox

[Eldariel]

If you don't like random encounters, you're going to have a problem with many JRPGs. Some use non-random encounters (the "Tales of" series being the most prominent I can think of), but most use random ones.

Zevox

Chrono Trigger and Seiken Densetsu 3 are some of the all-star games without random encounters (well, in the traditional sense of the word, anyways; sometimes you get waylaid but enemies tend to be on screen in those). Seiken takes it to second power too with combat seamlessly tied into the rest of the game like in many action games and western RPGs.

[Zevox]

Chrono Trigger and Seiken Densetsu 3 are some of the all-star games without random encounters (well, in the traditional sense of the world, anyways; sometimes you get waylaid but enemies tend to be on screen in those). Seiken takes it to second power too with combat seamlessly tied into the rest of the game like in many action games and western RPGs.
He can't get Chrono Trigger on the PC or 360 though. And it looks like the second one you mention has never been released outside Japan.

Zevox

[Eldariel]

He can't get Chrono Trigger on the PC or 360 though. And it looks like the second one you mention has never been released outside Japan.

Zevox

Well...let's just say...eh...can if he wills?

[Talkkno]

All RPGs really fly in the face of that; in D&D 3.5 a high level Fighter can survive a 200000' fall pretty every time. I.

"All?" Ever play GURPS, Rolemaster, Runequest, Hackmaster, Dark Hersey,or WHFRP? :smallamused:

[JadedDM]

If you don't like random encounters, you're going to have a problem with many JRPGs. Some use non-random encounters (the "Tales of" series being the most prominent I can think of), but most use random ones.

Zevox


Yeah, that's what eventually turned me away from JRPGs in general. Nothing kills the fun of exploration than being attacked every five seconds.

[Zevox]

Yeah, that's what eventually turned me away from JRPGs in general. Nothing kills the fun of exploration than being attacked every five seconds.
I find it to be the reverse - nothing makes exploration worthwhile like making it a risky thing to undertake, and nothing makes it quite as risky as random encounters, as long as mp restoratives are hard to come by. But to each his own I suppose.

Zevox

[king.com]

I think you're just thinking too much in real world terms and getting caught up on irrelevancies. All the stuff gets explained later, of course; FFs tend to start with main characters in the dark since if you knew the whole story from the start, the game would be kinda dull, wouldn't it? It's supposed to start of from obscurity where you can only throw wild guesses and as your characters find out more about what exactly they are up against and why they're fighting (aside from "having to 'cause someone has to"), well, things begin to make more sense. Just...try to dissociate real world rules from the game since fantasy worlds tend to follow very different rules. Hell, in combat, a person can be shot 100 times and still live.

It's just...it's gamism, really. If you don't let it get in the way, I do think the game would be very enjoyable. FF-type games really just don't work with "standard humans dying in one hit"-type combat since that would force a very complex combat system and really just change the focus of the games into "tactical war simulators" or something of the sort. All RPGs really fly in the face of that; in D&D 3.5 a high level Fighter can survive a 200000' fall pretty every time. It's not really anything but a combination of abstraction and said high level Fighter being superhuman in terms of everything. Most RPG characters tend to be like that, really. Though some are pretty logical.

I get the point of not explaining anything but the downside is, without having any information I have no reason to CARE about what these characters are doing. Not explaining the plot is very different to not explaining anything, who these characters are, why they are here, how this world works, whos running things, how people live etc etc. Problem is, why would I bother helping these guys, they're blowing up power plants and killing thousands of innocent people and have not given me an adequate explanation of why I should continue to help them.

No this does not happen in RPGs, take Baldurs gate for instance, at no stage am I allow to do something that ridiculous as to survive that kind of fall. I never have this kind of problem playing a table top rpg, if someone falls that distance, they die, end of story.

Im getting this disntinct feeling like this game has nothing to do with me, Im given no motivation for why I should continue and am honestly feeling like i being forced to play through the shoddy action of a movie and not being able to participate in the decision making and dialogue.


I find it to be the reverse - nothing makes exploration worthwhile like making it a risky thing to undertake, and nothing makes it quite as risky as random encounters, as long as mp restoratives are hard to come by. But to each his own I suppose.



Problem is, they're arent a threat. They can bearly scratch me and I have to use one potion after about 8 fights. All i do is repeatedly hit attack. Its not a challenge its just a fight for the sake of fighting.

[Eldariel]

"All?" Ever play GURPS, Rolemaster, Runequest, Hackmaster, Dark Hersey,or WHFRP? :smallamused:

Ok, let me rephrase: RPGs using HP system.


No this does not happen in RPGs, take Baldurs gate for instance, at no stage am I allow to do something that ridiculous as to survive that kind of fall. I never have this kind of problem playing a table top rpg, if someone falls that distance, they die, end of story.

Im getting this disntinct feeling like this game has nothing to do with me, Im given no motivation for why I should continue and am honestly feeling like i being forced to play through the shoddy action of a movie and not being able to participate in the decision making and dialogue.

Final Fantasies do that a lot. Really, I think you'd enjoy the ride if you went through it. Just...the way they do it is just like that. You're at pretty much dark as to what's going on and why. In FF6, you get thrown into a random resistance group after being freed of a mind control in the very beginning. And yet it unfolds into a beautiful, if rather sad, multipronged story.

Just, well, the medium has you starting off in awe just as much as your character. It just so happens Cloud is pretty much in the dark in the start too; it just gets explained later as he finds out why things are happening. I mean, I get it can be frustrating but at the same time, you have the exact same knowledge as Cloud so it's rather engaging too.

[Zevox]

Problem is, they're arent a threat. They can bearly scratch me and I have to use one potion after about 8 fights. All i do is repeatedly hit attack. Its not a challenge its just a fight for the sake of fighting.
Having never played FF7, I can't really speak for its difficulty in particular. I would imagine it won't be like that all the way through, as that sounds ridiculously easy.

Zevox

[Talkkno]

Ok, let me rephrase: RPGs using HP system.

Star Wars Saga uses hit points, but it still has the condition track to abstract injuries.

[Eldariel]

Star Wars Saga uses hit points, but it still has the condition track to abstract injuries.

...your point?

[Talkkno]

...your point?
Well I would dispute that any of those games I've listed are "tactical war simulators" of any sort that you say it would become.

[Bobbis]

Back on the topic of the original post, I would highly recommend a few games, depending on your capabilities; obviously there are more that I've not played.

SNES, or Emulator Thereof:
Final Fantasy 6
Chrono Trigger
Earthbound

GBA, or Emulator Thereof:
Golden Sun (start at the beginning)
Final Fantasy 6 (arguably a better version)

PSX, PC, or Emulator Thereof:
Star Ocean: The Second Story
Final Fantasy 7
Final Fantasy 8
(Different Strokes for Different Folks, of course)

PS2 or Emulator Thereof:
Star Ocean: Til The End of Time
Persona 3: FES

Gamecube:
Tales of Symphonia


If we throw SRPGs into the Mix:
Final Fantasy Tactics - PSX
Disgaea - PS2
Fire Emblem - Nintendo Consoles


I'm afraid I'm not particularly up on games in the current console gen.


Looking at the list, jRPGs from Nintendo or SquareEnix tend to be pretty good.

[Avilan the Grey]

...for whatever reason, this made me think of this:
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7030/heavenhell.jpg

That was all fun except why on earth would Bioware be an example of bad dialogue? I find the typical Bioware dialogue to be amazing (and that includes ME2).

[king.com]

That was all fun except why on earth would Bioware be an example of bad dialogue? I find the typical Bioware dialogue to be amazing (and that includes ME2).

The point of it is Bioware does the best and worst dialogue. The stuff in the side character quests, fantastic. The stuff in the main quest, absolutely, ridiculously bad.

[king.com]

Just, well, the medium has you starting off in awe just as much as your character. It just so happens Cloud is pretty much in the dark in the start too; it just gets explained later as he finds out why things are happening. I mean, I get it can be frustrating but at the same time, you have the exact same knowledge as Cloud so it's rather engaging too.

In awe? Thats definitely not what I would use to describe it. So your telling me, Cloud, who has living in this world his entire life and doesn't know how anything works? What?

[Eldariel]

In awe? Thats definitely not what I would use to describe it. So your telling me, Cloud, who has living in this world his entire life and doesn't know how anything works? What?

Yeah, pretty much. I'm...he's amnesiac. 'cause of...stuff.


Well I would dispute that any of those games I've listed are "tactical war simulators" of any sort that you say it would become.

I was referring to video games with that statement. It's very...illogical to make an RPG with good combat modelling, where combat isn't the main point. To my knowledge, all the games focusing on realism in combat tend to also focus on combat.

[king.com]

Yeah, pretty much. I'm...he's amnesiac. 'cause of...stuff.

Fair enough, guess that style of storytelling isnt my thing. Im a person who likes to know the rules of the universe, if I don't I default to the rules of the real world unless im told otherwise.



I was referring to video games with that statement. It's very...illogical to make an RPG with good combat modelling, where combat isn't the main point. To my knowledge, all the games focusing on realism in combat tend to also focus on combat.

You know what game im going to mention again. Baldurs gate. Great combat, didnt necessarily focus on it.

[Talkkno]

I was referring to video games with that statement. It's very...illogical to make an RPG with good combat modelling, where combat isn't the main point. To my knowledge, all the games focusing on realism in combat tend to also focus on combat.

Then why would you reference D&D 3.5 then?

[Eldariel]

You know what game im going to mention again. Baldurs gate. Great combat, didnt necessarily focus on it.

Sure. Still, it runs on a HP system so stuff like surviving a sword stung through or a dragon breathing on you happens. I mean, my point was that such things don't necessarily need to breach verisimilitude.


Then why would you reference D&D 3.5 then?

First example of HP-using system probably familiar to most users of this board that came to mind, really (and the abstractions it causes; they're the same whether in FF or D&D). That particular line was with regards to FF-like system using HP leading to strange stuff like surviving falls you shouldn't survive.

[Talkkno]

First example of HP-using system probably familiar to most users of this board that came to mind, really (and the abstractions it causes; they're the same whether in FF or D&D). That particular line was with regards to FF-like system using HP leading to strange stuff like surviving falls you shouldn't survive.

Even D&D 3.5 had massive damage rules though that could case instant death.

[king.com]

Sure. Still, it runs on a HP system so stuff like surviving a sword stung through or a dragon breathing on you happens. I mean, my point was that such things don't necessarily need to breach verisimilitude.

First example of HP-using system probably familiar to most users of this board that came to mind, really (and the abstractions it causes; they're the same whether in FF or D&D). That particular line was with regards to FF-like system using HP leading to strange stuff like surviving falls you shouldn't survive.

Guessing you never played baldurs gate did you? Level cap was 6/7 (depending on class). A dragon would 1 hit kill you at that level even if you were the most beefcake fighter in the game. BG2 extended it but dragons were still incredibly devestating needing every buff and piece of gear you could get your hands on to take down.

You know being hit by a sword doesnt constitute that your impaled. Its simply that you have been hit, most likely creating an open wound of internal damage, not enough to kill you but enough to damage you. Regardless, that is nowhere near to comparing atleast an 800+ metre fall to taking damage in combat. You can survive a sword wound, you can in no way survive a fall of that magnitude.

[Talkkno]

You know being hit by a sword doesnt constitute that your impaled. Its simply that you have been hit, most likely creating an open wound of internal damage, not enough to kill you but enough to damage you. Regardless, that is nowhere near to comparing atleast an 800+ metre fall to taking damage in combat. You can survive a sword wound, you can in no way survive a fall of that magnitude.

Frankly, I feel its a D&D trope that just wormed its way due its infulence over RPGs, too bad their aren't any like Runequest in terms of realism.

[king.com]

Frankly, I feel its a D&D trope that just wormed its way due its infulence over RPGs, too bad their aren't any like Runequest in terms of realism.

I don't know 1d4 chan appropriately sums up Dark Heresy and WFRP from this quote in tvtrops (about Dark Heresy)

"Basically you're ****ed like in WFRP, only instead of dying from blood poisoning caused by a dirty pitchfork you get to have your innards blown across the wall and then subsequently set on fire by a plasma gun (probably your own)."

Considering the universe, I found combat to be fairly accurate to reality.:smallbiggrin:

[Talkkno]

I don't know 1d4 chan appropriately sums up Dark Heresy and WFRP from this quote in tvtrops (about Dark Heresy)

"Basically you're ****ed like in WFRP, only instead of dying from blood poisoning caused by a dirty pitchfork you get to have your innards blown across the wall and then subsequently set on fire by a plasma gun (probably your own)."

Considering the universe, I found combat to be fairly accurate to reality.:smallbiggrin:
I meant videogames, the only thing I can think of approaching that level of realism is certain shooters.

[tyckspoon]

Frankly, I feel its a D&D trope that just wormed its way due its infulence over RPGs, too bad their aren't any like Runequest in terms of realism.

More than 'wormed', really; large chunks of FF1's combat systems were pulled straight out of D&D (HP, the spellcasting system was originally modified Vancian, getting higher attack rate as you leveled) and just stayed there ever after when the franchise took off. Although they switched over to the now-standard MP system for spells/special abilities pretty quickly.

Incidentally, if you find the standard ATB system of FF boring, give FFX and X-2 a try. They've got a lot more abilities that alter the turn order, as well as being less interrupting about when your 'turns' come up anyway (they don't show the time bars, for one thing- you just have a column on the side of the screen that shows who is going to act when.) It makes for a lot more engaging combat system.

[Yora]

He doesn't have a PS2. Which is a pity, those are some of the best RPGs ever.
When you want to play JRPGs, PlayStations are the systems you get by far the most and best of them.
If you just want to get into it and you're not sure if you actually like such games, it's probably best to try some for PC. But if you're interested in more of them, I really advice buying a used PS2. They are very cheap and you can get lots of very good used games for almost nothing.
Funny, I just wrote a short article (http://news.technophile.eu/?p=226) about just that.

[Zevox]

Incidentally, if you find the standard ATB system of FF boring, give FFX and X-2 a try. They've got a lot more abilities that alter the turn order, as well as being less interrupting about when your 'turns' come up anyway (they don't show the time bars, for one thing- you just have a column on the side of the screen that shows who is going to act when.) It makes for a lot more engaging combat system.
Er, I think you're misremembering those two games. FF 10 doesn't use the ATB at all, it just has a turn-based system where characters act one at a time instead of as a group. FF 10-2 however does use the ATB just like almost every other Final Fantasy game since 4.

Zevox

[Eldariel]

Even D&D 3.5 had massive damage rules though that could case instant death.

1) Massive damage is a variant rule in the DMG.
2) The chances of dying at the point where it's relevant are 5% assuming you have nothing that bypasses fail on 1. It's not...really what I'd expect out of a 20000000 meter fall.


Guessing you never played baldurs gate did you? Level cap was 6/7 (depending on class). A dragon would 1 hit kill you at that level even if you were the most beefcake fighter in the game. BG2 extended it but dragons were still incredibly devestating needing every buff and piece of gear you could get your hands on to take down.

You know being hit by a sword doesnt constitute that your impaled. Its simply that you have been hit, most likely creating an open wound of internal damage, not enough to kill you but enough to damage you. Regardless, that is nowhere near to comparing atleast an 800+ metre fall to taking damage in combat. You can survive a sword wound, you can in no way survive a fall of that magnitude.

...I've played the BG series. I've played it enough to finish it multiple times and transplant the whole game onto BG2 engine with a thousand mods, to be precise. I love BG. Thing is, Baldur's Gate 1 simply focuses on the lowest levels. That's not the system though. The system goes up to 20 with over 100 HP. That said, you'll still be able to have like 40 HP, which allows you to survive some pretty improbable stuff. On a critical success, you can succeed on the saving throw against a red's breath weapon, for example. And you can survive it. It's not likely, but it's definitely doable. That said, given BG1 doesn't really have you facing Dragons for obvious reasons (Wyvern thought to be a Dragon, sure, but no real Dragons), I suppose it's a moot point. AD&D 2e rule set (that the game is uses) definitely has characters capable of surviving dragon breaths.

And a person has actually survived fall from a jet. The chances of it happening are astronomically small. But it has happened. I'd also like to take this chance to mention that Cloud isn't exactly a normal human. Regarding your other point, "being hit by a sword" can constitute being impaled. That would be one way to describe a critical hit. You can still survive that. It can also constitute e.g. a cut; that's not really relevant though. Point being, in HP system you can be immersed in acid and come out 6 seconds later very beat-up but quite alive. So whenever playing a game using an HP system, I'd pull the realism switch a bit back since that's probably not what the game is about.


But this is straying off the point. I simply wished to bring up that Cloud's fall and survival not really necessarily something that needs to spoil the game experience. You can let it do that, sure, but you've probably played games where more improbable stuff has happened (and without the few yet-unexplained points from FF7 that make it less unlikely).

[warty goblin]

You know being hit by a sword doesnt constitute that your impaled. Its simply that you have been hit, most likely creating an open wound of internal damage, not enough to kill you but enough to damage you. Regardless, that is nowhere near to comparing atleast an 800+ metre fall to taking damage in combat. You can survive a sword wound, you can in no way survive a fall of that magnitude.

And if it's a system where HP loss actually has an adverse effect on your combat performance, it could be simulating that. Most games don't do that, and I'm unaware of how exactly it is possible to get chopped up and not impact one's ability to move. Without freedom of movement, one is absolutely crippled in the fight.

As my various books on the longsword make clear, it more or less only matters where you hit an enemy from a geometrical perspective. In terms of winning the fight, all that matters is you hit them before they hit you, because they've little to no chance of recovering from even a single strike or thrust.


Which would actually be a fairly interesting game mechanic: Just don't get hit.

[Tavar]

Depends on how it's handled. Exalted kinda does that, and it gets alot of flack for it.

[king.com]

And if it's a system where HP loss actually has an adverse effect on your combat performance, it could be simulating that. Most games don't do that, and I'm unaware of how exactly it is possible to get chopped up and not impact one's ability to move. Without freedom of movement, one is absolutely crippled in the fight.

As my various books on the longsword make clear, it more or less only matters where you hit an enemy from a geometrical perspective. In terms of winning the fight, all that matters is you hit them before they hit you, because they've little to no chance of recovering from even a single strike or thrust.

Which would actually be a fairly interesting game mechanic: Just don't get hit.

Thats how WFRP and Dark Heresy run things. Funnily enough I've always treated HP loss as an overall representation of your stamina within a fight.



But this is straying off the point. I simply wished to bring up that Cloud's fall and survival not really necessarily something that needs to spoil the game experience. You can let it do that, sure, but you've probably played games where more improbable stuff has happened (and without the few yet-unexplained points from FF7 that make it less unlikely).

For me it definitely did. The entire scene treats it like nothing happened. The whole purpose of it was to railroad the game to where Cloud needed to be for something to happen without actually needing to work a real reason for him to be there. I mean, they may aswell spontaniously teleported him there. It would have had the same effect.

[warty goblin]

Thats how WFRP and Dark Heresy run things. Funnily enough I've always treated HP loss as an overall representation of your stamina within a fight.

I've spent a good bit of time investigating various things sword related, and HP doesn't really work any better as a representation of stamina as it does of health.

The key problem is that you only lose HP when attacked, and not when attacking. If HP is stamina, this says that you're spending vastly more energy defending than on the offense At least in the Leichtenaur tradition with which I am most familiar, this is exactly the opposite of how you should be fighting. Put simply, if you are making tiring purely defensive movements like dodging or blocking, you have pretty much already lost because your enemy completely controls the initiative. It's only a matter of time until he forces you to over-commit to a defense or confuses you with a feint and stabs you through the face. Every action you take should be offensive, every parry should open options for you to hit your antagonist. You want to dictate the terms of the battle with a strong offense, and HP as stamina says you are doing exactly the opposite.

A better mechanic would be opposed dice rolls on behalf of both combatants. Both could 'bid' some number of endurance points to represent effort expended, the winner only loses their bid, the loser their bid and the difference between the attack rolls. Crucially, if the attacker can quickly launch a follow-up attack they get a bonus to their roll without endurance cost to represent their seizure of the initiative. If the difference between the winning and losing roll is some number determined by playtesting or more, the loser takes a wound, which would limit how much they could bid in subsequent rounds, if the success is particularly large they are more seriously wounded. Should a fighter run out of endurance entirely they can no longer bid at all, and must simply roll the dice.
]

[Fri]

After all this years, I still say that the JRPG with the best combat system is Grandia, bar none. And I'm not saying it because of nostalgia or because Grandia is my favourite jrpg. They even made a dungeoncrawler with the battle system, you know the type, with one mega dungeon and minimal story.

Though, I think it battle system had been copied a bit by final fantasy starting from x? dunno, I never have a ps2.

Grandia 2 is in the pc by the way.

edit: I tried to explain the battle system, but a video explain it better than a thousand words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2e18nKFA9U

basically, each participant have to move in both initiative line and in the real battlefield, and each moves have different charge time and such. You can also lower an enemy's place in the initiative bar with some actions and such (if you're good and lucky, you can even win battles unscathed with this in mind). And of course there are ranged attacks where you don't have to 'walk' to your opponents, and area actions which you need to carefully position to hit as much enemies or allies as possible. as showcased in the video, there's even a move that only moves participants in the battlefield and not damaging them.

edit2: and as a bonus, there're never random encounters in grandia.

Yeah, I don't like random encounters as well.

[JadedDM]

I find it to be the reverse - nothing makes exploration worthwhile like making it a risky thing to undertake, and nothing makes it quite as risky as random encounters, as long as mp restoratives are hard to come by. But to each his own I suppose.

Zevox

Danger does play a role in exploration. But random encounters are not really dangerous (unless you are very under-leveled...in which case you can participate in my least favorite activity of all time--grinding). They're tedious, at best.

But more annoyingly, they don't end. Ever. It would be one thing if I could clear out a dungeon of all danger, then be free to explore. But if I'm in a dungeon and come across a fork in the path...and one side leads me to the exit and the other side leads to places unknown (treasure? secret area?) I'm more likely to take the exit path, because I know I'm going to get attacked ten times on the way there (and ten times back!), and if it turns out to be a dead end, I'll be ever so miffed.

I remember when I used to play JRPGs, if there was a spell or item that reduced or even eliminated random encounters, I would use it constantly as soon as it was available. (Which of course, forced me to grind more later on as a result. Bleh. I just couldn't win.)

[king.com]

The key problem is that you only lose HP when attacked, and not when attacking. If HP is stamina, this says that you're spending vastly more energy defending than on the offense At least in the Leichtenaur tradition with which I am most familiar, this is exactly the opposite of how you should be fighting. Put simply, if you are making tiring purely defensive movements like dodging or blocking, you have pretty much already lost because your enemy completely controls the initiative. It's only a matter of time until he forces you to over-commit to a defense or confuses you with a feint and stabs you through the face. Every action you take should be offensive, every parry should open options for you to hit your antagonist. You want to dictate the terms of the battle with a strong offense, and HP as stamina says you are doing exactly the opposite.

A better mechanic would be opposed dice rolls on behalf of both combatants. Both could 'bid' some number of endurance points to represent effort expended, the winner only loses their bid, the loser their bid and the difference between the attack rolls. Crucially, if the attacker can quickly launch a follow-up attack they get a bonus to their roll without endurance cost to represent their seizure of the initiative. If the difference between the winning and losing roll is some number determined by playtesting or more, the loser takes a wound, which would limit how much they could bid in subsequent rounds, if the success is particularly large they are more seriously wounded. Should a fighter run out of endurance entirely they can no longer bid at all, and must simply roll the dice.
]

This entirely depends on two people being skilled (or atleast competent) combatants. As you level up your HP gets to the point where this expenditure of stamina becomes much more irrelevent (representing you actually developing a fighting technique). If you turn it into your system, its a massive downside to those types of characters who would then have to turn around and take a lightining bolt. A HP system as a general representation of a persons stamina (or toughness if you want to call it something else) allows the same rules to be applied to ever method of attack. A person can survive a lightening bolt if they reached the point where they have trained to endure something like that (say, with experience). Its not perfect but it allows interaction without coming up with countless rules.

[warty goblin]

This entirely depends on two people being skilled (or atleast competent) combatants. As you level up your HP gets to the point where this expenditure of stamina becomes much more irrelevent (representing you actually developing a fighting technique). If you turn it into your system, its a massive downside to those types of characters who would then have to turn around and take a lightining bolt. A HP system as a general representation of a persons stamina (or toughness if you want to call it something else) allows the same rules to be applied to ever method of attack. A person can survive a lightening bolt if they reached the point where they have trained to endure something like that (say, with experience). Its not perfect but it allows interaction without coming up with countless rules.

I've heard more or less this argument before, and it suffers from a single massive fault. Since magic does not exist it can be given any attributes one chooses without any justification for doing so. Saying it's hard for such characters to turn around and take a lightning is a non-argument since lightning bolts in the sense used here can do whatever the rules writer decides they should do. Their very existence is completely down to the whim of the creator. Because most games are exceedingly similar to most other games we're conditioned to think that certain non-existent things must have certain properties, but this is an utterly unfounded belief without logical justification or basis. So magic only destroys game balance if one lets it, just as spiraling HP counts only wreck havok with common sense if they are allowed to spiral in the first place.

Swords, bows and armor however do exist and have reasonably well known properties. It seems to me to be a much better foundation to model what does exist then make up the stuff that isn't real to work than it is to make stuff up then shoehorn the real things into some form of balance.

So make it so lightning bolts can be dodged, in which case the bid mechanic works just fine.The caster spends magic or endurance points to get a bonus, the defender spends endurance points to avoid the bolt. Fairly simple rule really, arguably less complicated than fortitude/reflex/will saves and a lot more interesting for me as a player since whether attacking or defending I'm making tactical decisions.

[Zevox]

Danger does play a role in exploration. But random encounters are not really dangerous
Only if the game is overly easy. Random encounters should always present a danger - not individually (or at least not a lethal one individually) in most games of course, since then the game would probably be excessively hard, but collectively. They wear you down over time, forcing careful management of hp, sp, items, and so on over the course of any exploration.


But more annoyingly, they don't end. Ever. It would be one thing if I could clear out a dungeon of all danger, then be free to explore. But if I'm in a dungeon and come across a fork in the path...and one side leads me to the exit and the other side leads to places unknown (treasure? secret area?) I'm more likely to take the exit path, because I know I'm going to get attacked ten times on the way there (and ten times back!), and if it turns out to be a dead end, I'll be ever so miffed.
See, I'm the opposite. I like that with random encounters you can never be free of the danger. That's what I'm talking about when I say that nothing makes exploring risky like random encounters. You can't avoid them (unless the game's "run" feature is unusual generous in how often it works), and they don't ever run out. That's a plus.


I remember when I used to play JRPGs, if there was a spell or item that reduced or even eliminated random encounters, I would use it constantly as soon as it was available.
Heh. Personally I always tend to think of those as totally useless, save for rare occasions when you might be backtracking in an area with enemies so much weaker than you that there's no point in fighting them.

Zevox

[tyckspoon]

Heh. Personally I always tend to think of those as totally useless, save for rare occasions when you might be backtracking in an area with enemies so much weaker than you that there's no point in fighting them.

Zevox

Depends on the game's encounter rate. There are games where you'll run into a fight every three steps without some way to turn off or at least reduce the battle rate, and if you don't use those options you'll never be able to get anywhere. Even if you aren't exploring the side paths; you just spend too much transitioning too and from the battle screen.

I like how the Suikoden games do it, generally; it doesn't take long to get your characters up to the level of the area (and then xp gain rapidly drops off, which discourages grinding since it's really painful to try and meaningfully out-level the zone) and then you get multiple options for completing encounters you don't really want to pay any attention to, from a rapidly-resolving auto-attack choice to bribing or just scaring off the enemies. And there's usually a rune somewhere you can use to just not fight if you really don't want to deal with it.

[Airk]

Only if the game is overly easy. Random encounters should always present a danger - not individually (or at least not a lethal one individually) in most games of course, since then the game would probably be excessively hard, but collectively. They wear you down over time, forcing careful management of hp, sp, items, and so on over the course of any exploration.

But lets be honest here - you're arguing a hypothetical. I can't remember the last game I played where this was ACTUALLY TRUE. Probably Phantasy Star 2. The idea of the party ACTUALLY RUNNING OUT of healing/SP items has been SO FAR from my experience in ANY vaguely modern RPG (J or otherwise) that it barely even merits mention.



See, I'm the opposite. I like that with random encounters you can never be free of the danger. That's what I'm talking about when I say that nothing makes exploring risky like random encounters. You can't avoid them (unless the game's "run" feature is unusual generous in how often it works), and they don't ever run out. That's a plus.

Not really, because, again, virtually every modern game takes steps to eliminate whatever value there might be here. Boss battle coming up? Well, looks like you guys are getting a full heal save spot! Done with the boss battle? Well, it's probably time for a cutscene and a quick exit from the dungeon. Odds of you having to face any random encounters in your weakened state? Basically zero.

I appreciate the theoretical precepts of your beliefs, but they really don't exist in modern RPGs and can't really be used as justification for random encounters in any game past maybe FF5. Modern RPGs are EASY. Particularly but by no means exclusively JRPGs. If you need a reminder, go back and play FF1 or Ultima 4 (http://www.phipsisoftware.com/ultima4.html). In those games, most random encounters were legitimate threats - at least until you'd levelled up a bunch. Modern RPGs? I think king.com's impressions of FF7 are right about on the mark - the random encounters are a waste of time and serve only to 'feed' the party XP.

Oh, and yes, Fri is absolutely right that Grandia (Grandia 3 in particular) had the best battle system of any RPG I've ever played (Though I really like Mana Khemia for that too). It's a shame that G3 was such a terrible game otherwise. (Grandia 2 was at least decent, such that at the very least, I was not actively irritated every time I wasn't in combat. :P )

Anyway, if you don't like FF7, that's fine - it is, fundamentally, an overrated game, because it was a "first kiss" for SO MANY people, back in the day when its storytelling was actually considered groundbreaking, etc, etc. These days, frankly, it does not compare positively.

[king.com]

But lets be honest here - you're arguing a hypothetical. I can't remember the last game I played where this was ACTUALLY TRUE. Probably Phantasy Star 2. The idea of the party ACTUALLY RUNNING OUT of healing/SP items has been SO FAR from my experience in ANY vaguely modern RPG (J or otherwise) that it barely even merits mention.



Not really, because, again, virtually every modern game takes steps to eliminate whatever value there might be here. Boss battle coming up? Well, looks like you guys are getting a full heal save spot! Done with the boss battle? Well, it's probably time for a cutscene and a quick exit from the dungeon. Odds of you having to face any random encounters in your weakened state? Basically zero.

I appreciate the theoretical precepts of your beliefs, but they really don't exist in modern RPGs and can't really be used as justification for random encounters in any game past maybe FF5. Modern RPGs are EASY. Particularly but by no means exclusively JRPGs. If you need a reminder, go back and play FF1 or Ultima 4 (http://www.phipsisoftware.com/ultima4.html). In those games, most random encounters were legitimate threats - at least until you'd levelled up a bunch. Modern RPGs? I think king.com's impressions of FF7 are right about on the mark - the random encounters are a waste of time and serve only to 'feed' the party XP.

Oh, and yes, Fri is absolutely right that Grandia (Grandia 3 in particular) had the best battle system of any RPG I've ever played (Though I really like Mana Khemia for that too). It's a shame that G3 was such a terrible game otherwise. (Grandia 2 was at least decent, such that at the very least, I was not actively irritated every time I wasn't in combat. :P )

Anyway, if you don't like FF7, that's fine - it is, fundamentally, an overrated game, because it was a "first kiss" for SO MANY people, back in the day when its storytelling was actually considered groundbreaking, etc, etc. These days, frankly, it does not compare positively.

You seem to be thinking somewhat on my wavelength, I should get my hands on Grandia 3? Skip the first 2?

[Mando Knight]

I have a PC and an Xbox 360 but much prefer to use a PC.

Here's a problem. Japanese don't care for the Xbox much, so most of the good jRPGs are released on a Nintendo or Sony machine. Buy yourself a DS Lite (the cheapest out of the three DS variants currently available, as well as the only one capable of playing GBA games), and then hunt down Final Fantasy IV DS and Dragon Quest IX. And if you're looking for a rarer gem, Dragon Quest V.

[Smiling Knight]

Modern RPGs are EASY.

Atlus (SMT: Strange Journey, Persona 3&4, Digital Devil Saga all recent) feasts upon your tears.

[Zevox]

But lets be honest here - you're arguing a hypothetical. I can't remember the last game I played where this was ACTUALLY TRUE. Probably Phantasy Star 2. The idea of the party ACTUALLY RUNNING OUT of healing/SP items has been SO FAR from my experience in ANY vaguely modern RPG (J or otherwise) that it barely even merits mention.
I suppose we've been playing different modern JRPGs, then. Or perhaps it's simply because I almost never actually purchase healing items, preferring to spend my money on equipment, and thus work with only whatever I find/enemies drop. And the only game I can think of where SP restoratives were remotely common is the recent Dragon Quest 9, which did not have random encounters.


Not really, because, again, virtually every modern game takes steps to eliminate whatever value there might be here. Boss battle coming up? Well, looks like you guys are getting a full heal save spot! Done with the boss battle? Well, it's probably time for a cutscene and a quick exit from the dungeon. Odds of you having to face any random encounters in your weakened state? Basically zero.
Story encounters is not what I was referring to with the exploration thing. I was was referring to checking every nook and cranny of a dungeon, or going off on the world map checking for extra areas.


Modern RPGs are EASY.
*glances at collection of PS2 and DS RPGs* Lets see... Persona 3 and 4, heck no. Nocturne, not at all. Xenosaga, sometimes yes, sometimes no, but definitely not in 2. Disgaea, depends on how much you grind. Kingdom Hearts, yeah, but they're action RPGs. Dragon Quest 8, starts hard, gets easier, then amps up boss difficulty. FF10, true. FF4, can't recall. Dragon Quest 4 and 5, moderate, with some tough bosses. Dragon Quest 9, yes, except for the final boss, but it has non-random encounters. Sonic Chronicles, yes. Chrono Trigger, can't recall. Devil Survivor, no. FE: Shadow Dragon and The World Ends With You, depends on the difficulty you select. Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, sadly very true.

Yeah, looks like that varies quite a bit to me.


If you need a reminder, go back and play FF1 or Ultima 4 (http://www.phipsisoftware.com/ultima4.html).
Never played those. My first RPGs were from the late 90s - probably either Quest 64 or the GBC remake of Dragon Quest 1 & 2.

Zevox

[Trazoi]

You seem to be thinking somewhat on my wavelength, I should get my hands on Grandia 3? Skip the first 2?
The PC port of Grandia 2 was available in Australia as a discount label. I got mine via the Red Ant/Big Bytes label several years ago. Unfortunately the company went bust a couple of years ago but there might still be a few copies floating around for $10 or less.


Never played those. My first RPGs were from the late 90s - probably either Quest 64 or the GBC remake of Dragon Quest 1 & 2.
The RPGs of the 80s often had a lethality at around or exceeding Nethack's level. I remember one D&D/Lord of the Rings inspired game where I could rarely get anyone over Lvl 3. The typical starting random encounters were a split between 13 slimes (fair), 13 skeletons (tough) or 9 Black Knights (Nazghul expies, i.e. roll new characters).

[Fri]

You seem to be thinking somewhat on my wavelength, I should get my hands on Grandia 3? Skip the first 2?

I thought you don't have a ps2?

grandia 1 is in saturn and psx, and grandia 2 is in ps2, pc, and dreamcast. grandia 3 is in ps2.

My personal favourite is the first one.

[king.com]

I thought you don't have a ps2?

grandia 1 is in saturn and psx, and grandia 2 is in ps2, pc, and dreamcast. grandia 3 is in ps2.

My personal favourite is the first one.

Oh ok thought 3 was on pc. Ill look for grandia 2 then.

[Fri]

Anyway, I don't really mind whether the overall dificulty of the game is high or low. I just prefer to fight smaller number of complex/hard fights rather than larger number of simple/easy fights.

[Airk]

Oh ok thought 3 was on pc. Ill look for grandia 2 then.

2 is a much better game. The battle system is fundamentally the same as 3, with a few cool widgets missing, but nothing you'll miss if you haven't played 3, and the story and characters, while nothing super special, are WAAAAY better than 3.

And Zevox - a lot of what you reference is OLD stuff. I guess P3 and P4 aren't EASY but they're far from hard. It's definitely not your "only purchase equipment" thing - modern games ALSO give you plenty of money for equipment for the most part (sometimes you have to skip very marginal upgrades and wait for bigger ones, but money is rarely a problem.). I admit I'm out of the loop on handheld RPGs though, since I don't own or want a handheld system, so there might be some hardcore stuff there.

And yeah, I must give a tip of the hat to the Digital Devil Saga games, but those still aren't particularly recent. Atlus does seem to be an exception from the "excessively easy" bandwagon, but I still plowed through P3 - and I'm not talking about some "FAQ and walkthrough here's the right way to synth your personas" nonsense either. So...shrug. 4 was harder though.

Very few of those games do a good job of supporting the 'random encounters help make games fun' argument though.

[Zevox]

And Zevox - a lot of what you reference is OLD stuff.
Outside of the DS remakes, it's all well within the past decade, mostly within the past 5-6 years. Just what definition of "old" are you working with there?


I guess P3 and P4 aren't EASY but they're far from hard.
Try playing them on their hard difficulty.

Seriously, I'm actually a bit afraid to do that myself. I got a taste of it in FES' "Answer" mode (which is locked on hard difficulty), and the difficulty there is a good piece of the reason I haven't completed that yet.


Atlus does seem to be an exception from the "excessively easy" bandwagon, but I still plowed through P3 - and I'm not talking about some "FAQ and walkthrough here's the right way to synth your personas" nonsense either. So...shrug. 4 was harder though.
Huh, weird - I found Persona 3 harder than Persona 4 myself. Probably in no small part due to the inability to control my allies directly.


Very few of those games do a good job of supporting the 'random encounters help make games fun' argument though.
That's because they were in response to your assertion that "modern RPGs are easy." I've already spelled out why I find them fun, you simply argued back that the games were too easy, so I decided to give examples of the games I have played and whether they were easy or not.

Besides, being too easy tends to impede the fun of any game, and honestly I'd say that RPGs seem to have that problem less than other genres these days. That's been my biggest complaint about many games of this generation, especially on the Wii.

Zevox

[warty goblin]

The point of it is Bioware does the best and worst dialogue. The stuff in the side character quests, fantastic. The stuff in the main quest, absolutely, ridiculously bad.

In regards to Bioware dialog, it always struck me that individual lines or short exchanges are generally of above average quality. String a lot of them together however and you often get something that bears very little resemblance to any human discourse in which I've ever taken part. Over the course of the entire game relationships end up feeling really weird because of this, even though there's seldom an individual bit that's actually off.

It's sort of a negative gestalt effect, probably due to the NPC having a past, hopes, fears and quirks, whereas the PC doesn't, hasn't, is incapable thereof and has all the deviance of a laser.

[Mando Knight]

Dragon Quest 9, yes, except for the final boss, but it has non-random encounters.

DQ IX varies. The final boss can be a cakewalk if you level up a bit, and the post-game gets ridiculously easy if you find within one of your random dungeons an all-Metal King Slime floor to let you grind up to solid 99x12 on all four characters (GRINDFEST!), and the main game is easy enough if you have a good head about you and aren't avoiding every monster that pops, but unless you spend some serious level-up time, the bonus bosses (especially the legacy bosses) can be downright brutal, as can be the the random monsters found in the deepest and darkest caves (some of which make the low-level bonus bosses seem like meaty punching bags). That's where the best treasure is, though, so that's just how the cookie crumbles.

[Talkkno]

very little resemblance to any human discourse in which I've ever taken part. Over the course of the entire game relationships end up feeling really weird because of this, even though there's seldom an individual bit that's actually off.


Realistic Diction Is Unrealistic
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealisticDictionIsUnrealistic

[Zevox]

DQ IX varies. The final boss can be a cakewalk if you level up a bit, and the post-game gets ridiculously easy if you find within one of your random dungeons an all-Metal King Slime floor to let you grind up to solid 99x12 on all four characters (GRINDFEST!), and the main game is easy enough if you have a good head about you and aren't avoiding every monster that pops, but unless you spend some serious level-up time, the bonus bosses (especially the legacy bosses) can be downright brutal, as can be the the random monsters found in the deepest and darkest caves (some of which make the low-level bonus bosses seem like meaty punching bags). That's where the best treasure is, though, so that's just how the cookie crumbles.
Personally, I stopped playing without getting far into the post-game content. I got the ability to summon the train, and scoped out the areas only reachable to it that I could find, but I really wasn't interested in going through a bunch of bland cave dungeons with the whole map system or doing the boring quests it was handing out.

Zevox

[Mando Knight]

The random quests were fairly random, yes, but the ones marked with "Story" are quite interesting. Stella gets some further character development, as do the three behind the main counter at the Quester's Rest (after taking a back seat to everything since shortly after the first boss).

[king.com]

In regards to Bioware dialog, it always struck me that individual lines or short exchanges are generally of above average quality. String a lot of them together however and you often get something that bears very little resemblance to any human discourse in which I've ever taken part. Over the course of the entire game relationships end up feeling really weird because of this, even though there's seldom an individual bit that's actually off.

It's sort of a negative gestalt effect, probably due to the NPC having a past, hopes, fears and quirks, whereas the PC doesn't, hasn't, is incapable thereof and has all the deviance of a laser.

That seems to be more the trends of the recent Bioware games, I dont remember seeing much of that in their older works. I found this problem to be much worse in the Witcher to be honest.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm going to second Earthbound, because it's my favourite RPG ever. There's also Chrono Trigger, which is also Neat.

Which is weird because neither was ever released in this country...

Oh! And if you do play Earthbound, and you like it, you should pick up Mother 3 as well. The fan translation patch is awesome and the story is superb.

But don't play Mother 3 before Earthbound. Because Earthbound doesn't have a run button.

[Dread Cthulhu]

Final Fantasy I is probably my favourite alltime JRPG. Which makes me a FREAK, but there's something about the way you can have any party you like that appeals to me, rather than being stuck with Generic Hero and Mysterious Waif and Brooding Rival the entire time.

Right now I'm on Dawn of Souls attempting a solo Red Mage run, which is far more fun than I had ever expected.

[Yuki Akuma]

FREAK!

Kidding. ;)

[Murdim]

Final Fantasy I is probably my favourite alltime JRPG. Which makes me a FREAK, but there's something about the way you can have any party you like that appeals to me, rather than being stuck with Generic Hero and Mysterious Waif and Brooding Rival the entire time.
One thing to notice is that Final Fantasy I is perhaps closer to Western RPGs in tone and feel than any other JRPG that I've ever played. It WAS based on Dungeons & Dragons, after all.

Also, I think many people would agree that FF1 was the best among the three first games. Quite a few people prefer it to FF5 as well, though it tends to be outshined by the ever-popular FF4 and its very formulaic, but soulful and oddly enjoyable plot. Anything from FF6 upwards is the domain of Fan / Hate Dumb and won't be discussed here.

[tgva8889]

Chrono Trigger DS is seriously the only JRPG I've ever been able to finish, and I finished it multiple times. I also spent time pursuing both maximum levels and equipment, just because I loved the game so much. It is an absolutely amazing game. I'd jump at the chance to play the original.

I have the two Golden Sun games for GBA, but I haven't been able to get into them quite yet. I did play through a bit of the first one and enjoyed it. I did detect quite a bit of mechanical depth that I just never quite got. It was a very fun game, though. I may start it again.

Currently playing through Disgaea. Technically a TRPG, but whatever it's awesome anyways. So much grinding necessary, it seems like. I actually greatly enjoy the grinding, though, and I am loving the characters and the atmosphere behind the game. Also still have to finish Final Fantasy IV DS...dunno why I can't get into this game.

Anyone played Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey? I'm looking for opinions on it. After reading about it the game, the mechanics seems like a very very interesting experience, one I would definitely enjoy.

[Smiling Knight]

The demon-negotiating mechanics are fun and unique. The writing and story are very good. The gameplay can get quite difficult, especially before you get used to some of the quirks of the system. I would definitely recommend it (but then again I'm a total Atlus fanboy).

[Tono]

Try playing them on their hard difficulty.

Seriously, I'm actually a bit afraid to do that myself. I got a taste of it in FES' "Answer" mode (which is locked on hard difficulty), and the difficulty there is a good piece of the reason I haven't completed that yet.



All hard difficulty requires is a little foresight to know what you are going up against, and maybe the making of a 'perfect shield' persona. I know that answer is generally beaten pretty easily with a perfect shield Abbadon/Cybelle (Still takes time but is easier to tank) and with Cybelle you can put a salvation in there and just auto-attack away/heal. If anything I would argue p3 eventually becomes easier because the cards make it not too hard to have insane stats on all your personas, and Homunculi seem easier to get.

Really, P3 and p4 arnt necessarily 'hard' they just require you work a tad bit harder to break the system.

[warty goblin]

Realistic Diction Is Unrealistic
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealisticDictionIsUnrealistic

That's really not what I was talking about.

My point was that in any ongoing relationship of which I've ever been a part, there's some back and forth. I show somebody I trust them by telling them something personal about my life, they reciprocate, the exchange builds trust and the relationship grows from there. There's really not very much reciprocation in Bioware dialog, with people randomly falling in love with me despite not knowing anything about me.

[tgva8889]

That's really not what I was talking about.

My point was that in any ongoing relationship of which I've ever been a part, there's some back and forth. I show somebody I trust them by telling them something personal about my life, they reciprocate, the exchange builds trust and the relationship grows from there. There's really not very much reciprocation in Bioware dialog, with people randomly falling in love with me despite not knowing anything about me.

Hey, they know that you killed and solved [insert problem here]! Plus, you probably saved them from certain death at least once. That's got to count for something.

Would it help if you had a solid character background so that your character could draw upon it in discussions? Yeah, probably. Would Bioware [I]ever do that? No, I honestly don't think so.

[king.com]

Hey, they know that you killed and solved [insert problem here]! Plus, you probably saved them from certain death at least once. That's got to count for something.

Would it help if you had a solid character background so that your character could draw upon it in discussions? Yeah, probably. Would Bioware [I]ever do that? No, I honestly don't think so.

And I die a little inside from you saying that :smallfrown:

[Yuki Akuma]

That's really not what I was talking about.

My point was that in any ongoing relationship of which I've ever been a part, there's some back and forth. I show somebody I trust them by telling them something personal about my life, they reciprocate, the exchange builds trust and the relationship grows from there. There's really not very much reciprocation in Bioware dialog, with people randomly falling in love with me despite not knowing anything about me.

You have to remember that RPG characters are not normal people. They're members of a war band fighting against incredible odds. You tend to grow to trust people you fight beside very quickly.

[Tengu_temp]

Also, I think many people would agree that FF1 was the best among the three first games. Quite a few people prefer it to FF5 as well, though it tends to be outshined by the ever-popular FF4 and its very formulaic, but soulful and oddly enjoyable plot. Anything from FF6 upwards is the domain of Fan / Hate Dumb and won't be discussed here.

I think FF5 is an extremely underrated game. Its plot is generic and predictable, but it's an incredibly charming game, with a few genuinely moving moments, fairy tale-like atmosphere and great soundtrack. And it handles its class system very well, creating an enjoyable gameplay - in comparison, FF4 felt very dull to me and I preferred to run away from battles rather than fight them.

[warty goblin]

You have to remember that RPG characters are not normal people. They're members of a war band fighting against incredible odds. You tend to grow to trust people you fight beside very quickly.

Trust more quickly yes, but I suspect there still has to be a reciprocal foundation to the relationship.

And anyway, I think it probably has more to do with Bioware's refusal to write defined characters as leads and their insistence on constant player ego massage than any attempt to really look at the psychology of people in constant danger of violent death. I could be wrong though, maybe I'm missing all the drunk, drugged out PTSDed characters in my playthroughs?

Which is fine if that's what they're doing and what you're into, but let's not pretend it's something it isn't.

[Airk]

Hard mode DOES NOT COUNT. Regardless of the game. It's nice to allow you to crank up the difficulty, but half the time it's not even selectable the first time you play through, and most hard modes are more like "tedious mode" because all they do is jack up the numbers, forcing you to grind more or break the system harder.

Also, for "old" I generally mean "5 years old or older".


I think FF5 is an extremely underrated game. Its plot is generic and predictable, but it's an incredibly charming game, with a few genuinely moving moments, fairy tale-like atmosphere and great soundtrack. And it handles its class system very well, creating an enjoyable gameplay - in comparison, FF4 felt very dull to me and I preferred to run away from battles rather than fight them.

I LOVED FF5, in spite of the semi-stupid plot. I'm not sure why, but it felt far closer to the spirit of FF1, which I quite enjoyed, than, say, FF6, which I didn't.

[Zevox]

Hard mode DOES NOT COUNT. Regardless of the game.
I absolutely disagree. Hard modes are something I'd like to see in more games, as it would be a good way to offset the low difficulty many suffer from these days.


Also, for "old" I generally mean "5 years old or older".
Personally, I tend not to consider games old until they're at least two console generations back. So at the moment, games from the N64/PS1 era would be old to me, but GCN/PS2/X-Box wouldn't, save maybe for the earliest of them. (I have an especially hard time thinking of PS2 games as old because I didn't get a PS2 until this generation, but that's another matter).

Zevox

[Tengu_temp]

My cutoff date for old vs new is 1995. For everything, including video games.

[Cogwheel]

My cutoff date for old vs new is 1995. For everything, including video games.

Did you just call me old? HOW COULD YOU.

[Airk]

I absolutely disagree. Hard modes are something I'd like to see in more games, as it would be a good way to offset the low difficulty many suffer from these days.

What you enjoy is sortof irrelevant; If you're talking about how hard a game is, you talk about it on the default setting. Particularly for things like RPGs which are notoriously stupid about only offering harder difficulties AFTER you win.

[Zevox]

What you enjoy is sortof irrelevant; If you're talking about how hard a game is, you talk about it on the default setting.
No, if a game has the option to increase the difficulty, you take that into account when judging its difficulty. To ignore it would be just ridiculous.


Particularly for things like RPGs which are notoriously stupid about only offering harder difficulties AFTER you win.
I can't recall many of those myself, outside of the for-masochists-only "unknown" difficulty of Tales of Vesperia and similar "mania" difficulty of Tales of Symphonia (and they both had easy, normal, and hard difficulties available from the outset anyway). Certainly that doesn't apply to Persona 3 or 4.

Zevox

[Tengu_temp]

Did you just call me old? HOW COULD YOU.

Look on the bright side - if you weren't born in the eighties (or earlier) then you will always remain a kid for me. Unless you were born in the nineties but before 1995, in which case you get the worst of both worlds.

[Airk]

No, if a game has the option to increase the difficulty, you take that into account when judging its difficulty. To ignore it would be just ridiculous.

I disagree. Most people do not adjust the difficulty - especially since a lot of games require you to pick it at the beginning and then don't let you change it. (Tales games are the marked exception here.). So people have no interest in having to start over if "hard" turns out to be too hard, so they go with normal.



I can't recall many of those myself, outside of the for-masochists-only "unknown" difficulty of Tales of Vesperia and similar "mania" difficulty of Tales of Symphonia. Certainly that doesn't apply to Persona 3 or 4.


Vesperia actually locks away anything above the fairly unchallenging "hard" mode, IIRC. (With modes being Easy/Normal/Hard/Very Hard/Stupid er... Unknown.) Of course, I could be botching this in my memory entirely.

[warty goblin]

I disagree. Most people do not adjust the difficulty - especially since a lot of games require you to pick it at the beginning and then don't let you change it. (Tales games are the marked exception here.). So people have no interest in having to start over if "hard" turns out to be too hard, so they go with normal.


That tends to be what I do as well, unless I'm playing something Russian. In that case I go for whatever option is closest to 'Mewling Babe.'

Apparently the fall of communism created some sort of race of super-gamers.

[Cogwheel]

Look on the bright side - if you weren't born in the eighties (or earlier) then you will always remain a kid for me. Unless you were born in the nineties but before 1995, in which case you get the worst of both worlds.

1992.

Yep, I'm doomed.

[Mando Knight]

Look on the bright side - if you weren't born in the eighties (or earlier) then you will always remain a kid for me. Unless you were born in the nineties but before 1995, in which case you get the worst of both worlds.
Does it only count as the 80s if you were born when Reagan was president? I missed out on that by about four months.

[Talkkno]

That tends to be what I do as well, unless I'm playing something Russian. In that case I go for whatever option is closest to 'Mewling Babe.'

Apparently the fall of communism created some sort of race of super-gamers.

Got any examples of these games?

[warty goblin]

Got any examples of these games?

Elven Legacy and Fantasy Wars come to mind. I consider myself fairly adept at tactical wargames, and there's plenty of missions in those titles that take me multiple attempts even on Easy. The last mission of EL in particular is a doozy, I bet I spent at least six hours and who knows how many attempts before I finally beat it.

On normal difficulty STALKER* is also a beast. Say hello to bleeding to death while dying of radiation poisoning because you accidentally took cover behind something made of metal (aka is radioactive) and a bullet ricochet hit you, puncturing the tattered remnants of your horribly degraded body armor while you try to clear your rifle, which has jammed on one of your last fifteen bullets. I've never had the balls to try hard.


*Technically developed by Ukrainians.

Metro 2033** isn't as bad, although it's plenty possible to be killed by the visions in your head. And every single time you fire your gun you have to weigh wanting to kill the thing eating your groin right now against the desire to have high quality bullets (which serve as money) in order to buy a better gun later. Also you may run out of air filters and stagger around choking on bits of your own dissolving lungs before finally expiring. It's memorable, I suggest doing it at least once in your playthrough.

**Also Ukrainian, although the book it's based on is Russian.

The expansions for Majesty 2 get pretty brutal as well.

[Murdim]

I think FF5 is an extremely underrated game. Its plot is generic and predictable, but it's an incredibly charming game, with a few genuinely moving moments, fairy tale-like atmosphere and great soundtrack. And it handles its class system very well, creating an enjoyable gameplay - in comparison, FF4 felt very dull to me and I preferred to run away from battles rather than fight them.
Galuf's deathwas probably the most emotionally charged moment of the entire series by this point, though I'd still say FF4 had the better story by sheer quantity. And yes, FF5's class system was very nice. Also, Gilgamesh.

Anyway, the reason why I only allow myself to talk about the five first games isn't because they have a clear, undisputed hierarchy of quality, but rather because their fan bases are much less virulent than those of the following games, and more than all, they do not have a dedicated hatedom.



My cutoff date for old vs new is 1995. For everything, including video games.
New :
http://lowendmac.com/wale/07/windows_files/windows-95.gif
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1705/23434940665ba2cd917bsz5.jpg

:biggrin:

[Zeful]

I can't recall many of those myself, outside of the for-masochists-only "unknown" difficulty of Tales of Vesperia and similar "mania" difficulty of Tales of Symphonia (and they both had easy, normal, and hard difficulties available from the outset anyway). Certainly that doesn't apply to Persona 3 or 4.

Zevox

Golden Sun: The Lost Age (GBA), Star Ocean: 3 (PS2), Star Ocean 4 (Xbox 360, and other platforms) are some quick examples from the top of my head. The last two have "Normal" difficulty and two easier difficulties unlocked automatically, but won't allow you access to higher difficulties until you've beaten the game twice (once on normal, once on "hard"), and Golden Sun allows you to either make a new game with all stats and weapons you had at the end of the game (effectively an easy mode) or to make a new game in which all the monster's numbers increased.

[Zevox]

I disagree. Most people do not adjust the difficulty - especially since a lot of games require you to pick it at the beginning and then don't let you change it. (Tales games are the marked exception here.). So people have no interest in having to start over if "hard" turns out to be too hard, so they go with normal.
None of which alters the fact that the option still exists to increase the difficulty. That most people won't use that right away doesn't change that it is there, and certainly doesn't mean it should be ignored when considering how difficult the game is.

Also, the Tales games are by no means the only ones to allow you to change the difficulty after starting. Off the top of my head I know all Bioware games do that (or at least all since Jade Empire - can't recall if KotOR did, haven't played those from before KotOR), as did The World Ends With You. Heck, TWEWY actively encouraged you to play around with the difficulty setting.


Vesperia actually locks away anything above the fairly unchallenging "hard" mode, IIRC. (With modes being Easy/Normal/Hard/Very Hard/Stupid er... Unknown.) Of course, I could be botching this in my memory entirely.
Huh, didn't recall that it had a "very hard." Personally, my experience with Tales games has been that normal mode is fairly easy except for some bosses (which can range from moderately challenging to genuinely tough), while hard mode is actually hard because enemies fight more intelligently in addition to being tougher (e.g. in Vesperia they ignore melee characters and swarm the casters).


Golden Sun: The Lost Age (GBA), Star Ocean: 3 (PS2), Star Ocean 4 (Xbox 360, and other platforms) are some quick examples from the top of my head. The last two have "Normal" difficulty and two easier difficulties unlocked automatically, but won't allow you access to higher difficulties until you've beaten the game twice (once on normal, once on "hard"), and Golden Sun allows you to either make a new game with all stats and weapons you had at the end of the game (effectively an easy mode) or to make a new game in which all the monster's numbers increased.
Haven't played Star Ocean (well, I rented 4 briefly, but got bored with it pretty fast), didn't know Golden Sun even had that option. I'll have to try the hard mode next time I play through it.

Zevox