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Maho-Tsukai
2010-12-27, 03:25 PM
I am going to be entering into an epic gestalt game in which my original build(Dread Necromancer 19/Pale Master 2///Cloistered Cleric 11/Walker in the Wastes 10) no longer can be achieved due to a banning of lich(and I am assuming dry lich falls under that ban though I have no word on this yet.) and lichdom was a centerpeice to that build seeing as it's stat boosts are what allowed me to work around MAD. However, without lich stat boost the build falls appart to MAD so I have to find another way to get what I want from my character(the ultimate necromancer type) without having to deal with lots of MAD/two casting stats. I have two sollutions one of which is a minor tweek to my first build and the other being a whole new build all togther.

My first idea was to lose lesser aasmar as a race and instead use human, allowing me to take both tomb tainted soul AND dynamic priest at 1st level. Dynamic priest sets my cloistered cleric casting to charisma instead of wisdom for everything but DCs, and since DN is a fully cha based class I can safely keep wisdom as a "somewhat dumb" stat(not below 10, but not much higher either.) and focus solely on charisma, using my DN side for offensive casting and my Cloistered Cleric side for things that require no saves.

However, with some power-houses in the group like a wizard/euradite I fear that losing the ability to cast anything from my cloistered cleric side that relies on DCs will downgrade me from a tier 1 to a tier 3 and in a group with mostly tier 1s-tier 2s I would rather not be a tier 3. If you all think that this kind of build would not downgrade me to tier 3 then please say so(and some backup for said claim would be nice.)

If my first idea dose in fact downgrade me to tier 3 or lower, then my second option is a death master///archivest but while that is certainly a strong build, I see it as an inferor NECROMANCER to the first build and I want to be a necromancer first and formost, not a standard spellcaster who likes to animate some undead in his spair time. Death Master///Archivest is an "ok" necromancer but I have no idea if a cleric outshines him and DNs laugh at the size of his horde. Due to desecrate he's not AS stinky at the shambeling horde thing as a wizard would be, but he's no DN and I am not sure that he's worse then a cleric but he certainly is not any better then one.(except at low levels when he animates before a cleric can.)

So, I ask, for a character who is both an excelent leader of undead and has a large shambeling horde of undead rather then a few eliets but at the same time is a tier 1-tier 2 which build is better?

Urpriest
2010-12-27, 03:41 PM
Tier 1s generally can avoid saves pretty easily, and Cleric is no exception. Most of what makes a Cleric Tier 1 is a suite of utility and buff spells, not stuff with saves. Your character will still be Tier 1 if your save DCs are crappy.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-12-27, 04:52 PM
Yeah, which is why I considered the idea. In fact, many of the cleric's best offensive necromancy spells(Destruction, Harm ect...) also appear on the Dread Necromancer list. So while I may not be all that great at flame striking stuff, most of the cleric's offensive necromancy spells, which would be what I use for my offense if my cleric DCs where good anyway happen to be on the list of the class with the good DCs. So, yeah, I will miss implosion ect.. but I have wail of the banshie and most of the good "cleric exclusive" save or dies(destruction, slay living ect..) are on my DN list so I can still auto kill monsters on failed saves with magic if I want...and with a good DC to boot.

As for the buffs, while I am certainly not going to be making this character a primary melee fighter, he can still be a decient gish with the right buffs. Sure, he may only have light armor and has poor BAB, but with bottomless DN heals(tomb tainted soul) and cleric buffs(and perhaps DMM: Presist if I can squeze it in.) he can still out fight a fighter and if he really wanted to melee he could just be a fear monger and abuse the DN fear aura and the intimidate skill to stop his enemies from doing anything but cowering at his feat while he hacks them to bits with his scythe.(Because no other martial weapon is as fitting for this guy.)