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DragonsAion
2010-12-27, 04:27 PM
would the vow of poverty feat work well with a soulkinfe?

Lateral
2010-12-27, 04:29 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by 'well'. It would work with one, sure.

Trekkin
2010-12-27, 04:31 PM
It's been established that VoP is less powerful than equivalent WBL, but at least none of a soulknife's class features are dependent on material posessions.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 04:32 PM
VoP doesn't work well with anyone. A VoP Soulknife's mindblade at level 20 is worth 162,000 GP, so he's 162,000GP ahead of any other VoP character. That still puts him behind a properly WBL-ed character in cash and significantly behind in versatility.

DragonsAion
2010-12-27, 04:36 PM
"You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick."

didn't know if you the Vow would work due to the above. I'm also wondering if the vow makes the soul knife any better.

Lateral
2010-12-27, 04:38 PM
Yes, you can use a Mind Blade with VoP. Still not recommended, except in virtually nonmagical campaigns.

Lans
2010-12-27, 05:17 PM
VoP doesn't work well with anyone.
Paladins dinowombat?

Toliudar
2010-12-27, 05:23 PM
It might work well with a soulknife combined with a caster of some kind, or at low levels when things like flight and true sight are less important. VOP has a useful bag of defensive abilities, but does almost nothing for offense, mobility and general utility.

Blackfang108
2010-12-27, 06:18 PM
"You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick."

didn't know if you the Vow would work due to the above. I'm also wondering if the vow makes the soul knife any better.

Remember that the bonus to hit from the Vow is an enhancement bonus, and so doesn't stack.

Hyfigh
2010-12-27, 06:21 PM
The Psy-Warrior with the soulbound weapon is strictly better than a Soulknife. It's functionally the same thing, just better. Adding in the Psy-Weapon Master can make it pretty reasonable for an item replacement. The problem is: it's strictly a weapon in the way of item replacement. This means you're still screwed when it comes to the rest of your non-gear from VoP.

See if your DM would allow Item Familiar and Ancient Relic to be applied to your mindblade/soulbound weapon.

It still doesn't replace WBL, but at least it's not as bad...

AslanCross
2010-12-27, 06:43 PM
Yeah, the Monk and Soulknife have somewhat the same idea: "I don't need a weapon."

Unfortunately, both are rather poor in saying that their damage growth is much poorer compared to getting weapons by WBL.

If Vow of Poverty doesn't help the Monk any, I don't expect it to do much for the Soulknife either.

If you absolutely have to be a Soulknife, the options presented in Races of Eberron for the Kalashtar Soulknife make it somewhat better.

The best "soulknife" is still the Psychic Warrior with a Soulbound Weapon. You get a much stronger weapon and it progresses much faster. Plus you get bonus feats and tasty Psychic Warrior powers.

Aquillion
2010-12-27, 06:43 PM
VoP doesn't work well with anyone.VoP druids do all right -- they're weaker than ordinary druids, of course (especially if you allow Wildling Clasps), but they're still very playable.

This says more about the raw power of druids than anything else -- they have so much power to spare that they more than can afford taking a feat that weakens them.

Soulknives? No. Soulknives are generally pretty underpowered -- their class doesn't really give them the ability to do much very well. They need artifacts to make up for this -- their mindblade isn't nearly good enough to do it on its own, nor are the various limitd powers granted by VoP.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:43 PM
VoP doesn't work well with anyone. A VoP Soulknife's mindblade at level 20 is worth 162,000 GP, so he's 162,000GP ahead of any other VoP character. That still puts him behind a properly WBL-ed character in cash and significantly behind in versatility.

Say that to a Druid 20... or a Totemist :smallamused:

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 06:48 PM
VoP druids do all right -- they're weaker than ordinary druids, of course (especially if you allow Wildling Clasps), but they're still very playable.

This says more about the raw power of druids than anything else-- they have so much power to spare that they more than can afford taking a feat that weakens them.

Soulknives? No. Soulknives are generally pretty underpowered -- their class doesn't really give them the ability to do much very well. They need artifacts to make up for this -- their mindblade isn't nearly good enough to do it on its own, nor are the various limitd powers granted by VoP.


Say that to a Druid 20... or a Totemist :smallamused:

Exactly. Druids (and totemist :) excel in spite of VoP, not because of it.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:53 PM
Err I understood that you said that VoP was crippling to any class, my mistake.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 07:06 PM
Err I understood that you said that VoP was crippling to any class, my mistake.

No, I was saying that it's always inferior to WBL for any class. A druid/totemist with VoP is still fully functional, but that same druid/totemist will be even more functional with actual gear.

Hyfigh
2010-12-27, 11:02 PM
No, I was saying that it's always inferior to WBL for any class. A druid/totemist with VoP is still fully functional, but that same druid/totemist will be even more functional with actual gear.

Oh, yea... I made a Warforged with VoP that was not only a functional melee character, but was actually pretty good. All of that was just to prove a point. The problem was: take away VoP and replace with items, and it was better.

Strictly speaking VoP is a poor choice unless your DM has flat out told you that he isn't going to provide items, let alone WBL.

Closet_Skeleton
2010-12-28, 09:09 AM
Strictly speaking VoP is a poor choice unless your DM has flat out told you that he isn't going to provide items, let alone WBL.

Then you either have to use extra rules or D&D breaks.

I could never get the hang of WBL and gave up playing D&D partly because of the stupidity of it.

2xMachina
2010-12-28, 09:23 AM
Straight Incarnum could do with VoP.


No, I was saying that it's always inferior to WBL for any class. A druid/totemist with VoP is still fully functional, but that same druid/totemist will be even more functional with actual gear.

Hmm, wouldn't every slot be bound? There's at least 1 good/decent soulmeld for each slot.

Greenish
2010-12-28, 10:52 AM
Hmm, wouldn't every slot be bound? There's at least 1 good/decent soulmeld for each slot.There aren't binds for every slot (say, rings), and totemists get only 5 binds at level 20 (discounting feats).

2xMachina
2010-12-29, 07:30 AM
You know what's fun?

VoP Artificer. :smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-29, 07:39 AM
Straight Incarnum could do with VoP.



Hmm, wouldn't every slot be bound? There's at least 1 good/decent soulmeld for each slot.

Straight Incarnum would be better with items.

Not all items take up body slots, and besides, you can't bind to every single chakra.

You have five chakra binds at level 20 and about ten other body slots for magic items.

Hida Reju
2010-12-30, 01:11 AM
Remember that the bonus to hit from the Vow is an enhancement bonus, and so doesn't stack.

True but it does allow you to go into Soulbow or multiclass a lvl or two as fighter for bonus feats and still get a +5 weapon at the end of the day since the bonus from VoP happens based on character lvl instead of Soulknife lvl.

But to be honest as much as I enjoy playing a vagabond I like Psi Warrior (With the soulbound Weapon) much better with VoP. The psi powers complement the free empowerment of VoP and counter the loss of gear nicely.

FMArthur
2010-12-30, 12:37 PM
Soulknife trades class features for some bad gear. VoP trades the rest of your gear for things that don't even do what your gear would have.

Really, the only 'good' way to use VoP is to put it on things like cohorts and companions that get feats but don't get any of their own WBL, but that's really rather abusive.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-30, 12:52 PM
Oh, yea... I made a Warforged with VoP that was not only a functional melee character, but was actually pretty good. All of that was just to prove a point. The problem was: take away VoP and replace with items, and it was better.

Strictly speaking VoP is a poor choice unless your DM has flat out told you that he isn't going to provide items, let alone WBL.

I've been under many DM's that liked the "low magic" and "low wealth" campaigns. So much so that we didn't see our first magic item of any kind until we were level 6. We finally found a +1 sword at level 9. We were so excited. Even if we had money, there were no magic items to be found. We lived in a Metropolis and we had to use Gather Information to find a spellcaster with the ability to make a magic item. Then we had to pay them for said item. The only magic items available were scrolls. And I think the DM made them available just in case there was a wizard that wanted to expand their spellbook.

When that same DM decided to run another campaign, 3 of the 5 players took Vow of Poverty. They were a Druid(shifter specialist), a Monk, and a Sorcerer. The shifting druid on Vow of Poverty put the rest of us with items to shame in most combats.

When I DM, I overload the PC's with lots of gold and magic items. They are normall 4-5 levels ahead for Wealth By Level. I like to make sure no one takes Vow of Poverty in my campaigns, and so far, no one has.

Godskook
2010-12-30, 01:31 PM
No, I was saying that it's always inferior to WBL for any class. A druid/totemist with VoP is still fully functional, but that same druid/totemist will be even more functional with actual gear.

Actually, with the competitive nature soulmelds have with items, totemists and incarnates might be *the* example of classes that could actually benefit slightly from VoP, at least at higher levels, when their chakra binds start competing for their item slots.

Tokuhara
2010-12-30, 04:19 PM
Consider this: VoP is a double-edged sword in all cases. On the one hand, you get lots of bonuses, but at the cost of magic items.

That being said, a Soulknife 10/Totemist 10 has a chance of not sucking too terribly bad, considering what item slots you dont have are covered by feats to open more chakras. Plus, you have Psycarnum Blade open.

In short, while you won't be awesome, you will function more effectively

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-30, 04:30 PM
Actually, with the competitive nature soulmelds have with items, totemists and incarnates might be *the* example of classes that could actually benefit slightly from VoP, at least at higher levels, when their chakra binds start competing for their item slots.

Totemists have five chakra binds at level 20.

They have room for seven or so additional slotted magic items, and various non-slotted magic items.

No, a VoP Totemist does not compete with a Totemist who didn't waste two feats on having less WBL than everyone else.

Certainly he'll be better off than a Wizard or Monk, but he'd be even better without wasting two feats on being weaker.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-30, 05:01 PM
Totemists have five chakra binds at level 20.

They have room for seven or so additional slotted magic items, and various non-slotted magic items.

No, a VoP Totemist does not compete with a Totemist who didn't waste two feats on having less WBL than everyone else.

Certainly he'll be better off than a Wizard or Monk, but he'd be even better without wasting two feats on being weaker.

How far behind in Wealth By Level in your opinion would a character have to be in order to be better with Vow of Poverty?

My DM's are notorious for having us 4-5 levels behind on wealth according to our level. I think that's why so many people in our campaigns take Vow of Poverty.

Tetsubo 57
2010-12-30, 05:29 PM
Anyone interested in the Soulknife should take a look at Psionics Unleashed by Dreamscarred Press. It revamps the psionic system for Pathfinder. It makes the Soulknife a Full BAB class and adds a lot of nice features. I will be doing a full review when I am done reading the book.

Starbuck_II
2010-12-30, 05:40 PM
It works better for 2 sworded style (2 weapon fighting) as base enhancement is lowered normally, but not with VoP.

Greenish
2010-12-30, 05:54 PM
I've been under many DM's that liked the "low magic" and "low wealth" campaigns. So much so that we didn't see our first magic item of any kind until we were level 6. We finally found a +1 sword at level 9. We were so excited. Even if we had money, there were no magic items to be found. We lived in a Metropolis and we had to use Gather Information to find a spellcaster with the ability to make a magic item. Then we had to pay them for said item. The only magic items available were scrolls. And I think the DM made them available just in case there was a wizard that wanted to expand their spellbook.In a campaign like that, taking VoP would be cheating. :smallwink: