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Enterti
2010-12-27, 08:33 PM
Hello one and all, my DM has begun a new 3.5 D&D campaign and has decided to handwave all level adjustments of 5 and lower. I have decided to run a Pixie wizard but started to think about other race/class combos that would be great if LAs were handwaved. And so I leave it to you, the playground dwellers, give me your long dreamed of high LA races and their ideal classes!

Edit: almost forgot, Racial HD are also being waved on anything with less than +5 LA

Urpriest
2010-12-27, 08:53 PM
Edit: almost forgot, Racial HD are also being waved on anything with less than +5 LA

Sorry, does this mean that racial LA are waived if your total ECL from race is lower than 5, or if your LA is below +5? If the latter, Were-biggest thing you can get will give pretty impressive stat bonuses, and Tauric would be pretty killer.

Trekkin
2010-12-27, 09:15 PM
Unbodied telepath?

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 09:20 PM
draconic, half-minotaur quasi-lycanthrope Goliath?

Draconic, Phrenic, Half-Fey Sorcerer or Bard or Cha-focused build?

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 09:20 PM
Well, if you want to get books thrown at you, play a Black Ethergaunt. 16 Racial Hit Dice (Abberation) and +4 LA, with casting as per a 17th-level Wizard. And by the terms of your game, all of that is free, so you get whatever ECL the game is as more class levels.

EDIT: Oh, and selective immunity to all arcane spells of 6th level or lower, plus you stack actual wizard levels with your free 17 levels of effective casting.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-27, 09:21 PM
Hello one and all, my DM has begun a new 3.5 D&D campaign and has decided to handwave all level adjustments of 5 and lower. I have decided to run a Pixie wizard but started to think about other race/class combos that would be great if LAs were handwaved. And so I leave it to you, the playground dwellers, give me your long dreamed of high LA races and their ideal classes!

Edit: almost forgot, Racial HD are also being waved on anything with less than +5 LA
Vow of Poverty Ghost Sorcerer (or Favored Soul), with Flyby Attack.

Vow of Poverty Unbodied Telepath, again with Flyby Attack.

You can dump the Vow of Poverty if you remember to get Ghostly Grasp (from Libris Mortis).

Halae
2010-12-27, 09:23 PM
Incarnate Construct warforged Mineral Warrior Lolth-touched Half-Minotaur Phrenic Necropoiltan Evolved Undead (x3)! Be the token evil teammate!

Enterti
2010-12-27, 09:28 PM
Well, if you want to get books thrown at you, play a Black Ethergaunt. 16 Racial Hit Dice (Abberation) and +4 LA, with casting as per a 17th-level Wizard. And by the terms of your game, all of that is free, so you get whatever ECL the game is as more class levels.

EDIT: Oh, and selective immunity to all arcane spells of 6th level or lower, plus you stack actual wizard levels with your free 17 levels of effective casting.

Christ Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
That said I think my DM deserves this to be thrown at him.

@Urpriest: The latter

Lateral
2010-12-27, 09:30 PM
Well, if you want to get books thrown at you, play a Black Ethergaunt. 16 Racial Hit Dice (Abberation) and +4 LA, with casting as per a 17th-level Wizard. And by the terms of your game, all of that is free, so you get whatever ECL the game is as more class levels.

EDIT: Oh, and selective immunity to all arcane spells of 6th level or lower, plus you stack actual wizard levels with your free 17 levels of effective casting.

Not to mention a massive INT bonus. Unsaveable Wail of the Banshee as a 1st level wizard, anyone?

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 09:33 PM
Christ Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
That said I think my DM deserves this to be thrown at him.

@Urpriest: The latter

It's the least I can do for my comrades in tentacles.:smallsmile:

But yeah, I don't think anything will top the Freethergaunt for abusing this advantage you've been offered.

Halae
2010-12-27, 09:36 PM
Christ Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
That said I think my DM deserves this to be thrown at him.

@Urpriest: The latter

ah, another post for Glyphstone's egopad. I was wondering when we'd see another one, him being so awesome and all :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 09:37 PM
ah, another post for Glyphstone's egopad. I was wondering when we'd see another one, him being so awesome and all :smallbiggrin:

I like to keep track, for noting who I will eat first when the end times come.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 09:41 PM
You've still have a LA +1 free, I suggest a nice temp,ate such as...half-minotaur just for the evulz.

Halae
2010-12-27, 09:44 PM
You've still have a LA +1 free, I suggest a nice temp,ate such as...half-minotaur just for the evulz.

oooh! followed by three levels of wizard to max out your casting, then go with a melee build!

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 09:44 PM
You've still have a LA +1 free, I suggest a nice temp,ate such as...half-minotaur just for the evulz.

Ethergaunts are abberations, I don't think they qualify. Go with Lolth-touched instead, for +6 Str/Con.

Enterti
2010-12-27, 10:01 PM
Starts at lv 8 too :smalleek:
That being said can anyone think of any other great combos besides wizard ones?

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 10:02 PM
Ethergaunts are abberations, I don't think they qualify. Go with Lolth-touched instead, for +6 Str/Con.

Sorta breaks the theme of an ethergaunt though... :/


Starts at lv 8 too :smalleek:
That being said can anyone think of any other great combos besides wizard ones?

Well, what I posted about phrenic and half-fey is great for a sorcerer or other cha-based build due to giving extra casting through SLA/PLAs and pumping CHA.

Unfortunately, Nymph and Rakshasa are LA+7. Youngerish Phaerimm should have LA<5 though and allow some sorcerer casting fun.

Jallorn
2010-12-27, 10:03 PM
Sorry, does this mean that racial LA are waived if your total ECL from race is lower than 5, or if your LA is below +5? If the latter, Were-biggest thing you can get will give pretty impressive stat bonuses, and Tauric would be pretty killer.

Tauric doesn't have a LA*, I know, I've looked into playing one.

*As in it does even have LA +0, it's not intended for a PC even remotely.


In other news, Pixie Warlock is a great build. Infinite Greater Invisibility combined with at will damage at range is amazing.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 10:09 PM
Sorta breaks the theme of an ethergaunt though... :/



I dunno, I think it could be very thematic. This is an entire race that has rationalized gods and divinity out of their worldview, effectively leaving them powerless against its effects. Lolth-touched doesn't have to be voluntary, and it seems entirely fitting for the Chaotic goddess in question to 'gift' one of the atheist Ethergaunts with her blessings simply for the lulz. Just feels like something she'd do in between inciting drow civil wars.

Enterti
2010-12-27, 10:16 PM
Sorta breaks the theme of an ethergaunt though... :/



Well, what I posted about phrenic and half-fey is great for a sorcerer or other cha-based build due to giving extra casting through SLA/PLAs and pumping CHA.

Unfortunately, Nymph and Rakshasa are LA+7. Youngerish Phaerimm should have LA<5 though and allow some sorcerer casting fun.

One of the other players is running a Rakshasa Nazutherune Artificer, that DR is amazing at this Lv

Darrin
2010-12-27, 10:30 PM
Tauric doesn't have a LA*, I know, I've looked into playing one.

*As in it does even have LA +0, it's not intended for a PC even remotely.


Actually, the 3.5 update booklet gave it an LA of the base humanoid +3. This means you can stack a bunch of different templates on the bottom half (so long as the creature type doesn't change), and they don't count towards the LA of the top half.

Popertop
2010-12-28, 12:30 AM
Sorta breaks the theme of an ethergaunt though... :/



Well, what I posted about phrenic and half-fey is great for a sorcerer or other cha-based build due to giving extra casting through SLA/PLAs and pumping CHA.

Unfortunately, Nymph and Rakshasa are LA+7. Youngerish Phaerimm should have LA<5 though and allow some sorcerer casting fun.

maybe a sorcerer/paladin?

Jack_Simth
2010-12-28, 08:28 AM
Unfortunately, Nymph and Rakshasa are LA+7. Youngerish Phaerimm should have LA<5 though and allow some sorcerer casting fun.Yes... especially as Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun) casting is:
A) As spell-like abilities (so no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components).
B) Based on Hit Dice, as opposed to Racial Hit Dice.... and actual Sorcerer levels explicitly stack with the racial ability.

A Hatchling Phaerimm is Tiny, +2 LA and "1" RHD (which goes away per the monsters as characters rules). A Juvenile Phaerimm is Small, 4 RHD, +3 LA. Young Adult is Medium, +4 LA and 7 RHD, Adult is Large +5 LA and 10 RHD. Juvinile gives you most of what you want - perpeptual See Invisibility, Detect Magic at will, immunity to Polymorph and Petrification. You definitely get some better statistics the older you get with it... but size increases mean you'll be progressively less likely to be able to accompany the party. If you're Tiny (Hatchling), then you can cast Disguise Self and pretend to be someone's familiar... as you stack (Variant) Paladin-2 (Charisma to saves), Monk-2 (Evasion, Wisdom to AC -> Charisma to AC when you pick up Ascetic Mage from Complete Adventurer), Pious Templar (Complete Divine - Mettle: It's Evasion for Fort and Will), and then either continue with Charisma-stacking, or start taking levels in Cleric (for the Pride domain to reroll 1's on saves, and for self-healing & buff spells - worship The Soverign Host for Worldly Focus to avoid the need for a Holy Symbol, and to be able to cherry-pick domains from a big list).

Oh yes, and the Vow of Poverty works well on such a character, due to the funny shape causing it to be a bit uncertain which equipment you can wear anyway.

As an alternative to the Nymph, check out the Gloura from Underdark - 7 RHD, +2 LA, casts as a Bard-7, and has most of the Nymph's passive defenses.

hamishspence
2010-12-28, 08:43 AM
Yes... especially as Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun) casting is:
A) As spell-like abilities (so no verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components).
B) Based on Hit Dice, as opposed to Racial Hit Dice.... and actual Sorcerer levels explicitly stack with the racial ability.

I think that was a bug- the online version in the Player's Guide to Faerun web enhancement- says "Sorcerer levels stack with base spellcasting ability"- and base spellcasting ability is based on racial hit dice.

So you get your sorcerer levels once, not twice.
A Juvenile Phaerimm Sorcerer 15 would have a caster level of 19.

Not 34.



A Hatchling Phaerimm is Tiny, +2 LA and "1" RHD (which goes away per the monsters as characters rules).

I've also seen it argued that only 1HD monsters which are humanoid in form, can trade their 1 Hit Dice for a character level.

Ones which are not at least humanoid in shape, may not be able to do so.

akma
2010-12-28, 09:14 AM
Ethergaunts are abberations, I don't think they qualify. Go with Lolth-touched instead, for +6 Str/Con.

They get wizard spellcasting and +20 for inteligence, what about some template that adds to inteligence? That would make them even more deadly spellcasters.
I`m sure someone here knows some obscure template from an expansion book that adds to inteligence and is only +1 LA.

Calmar
2010-12-28, 09:48 AM
Vow of Poverty Ghost Sorcerer (or Favored Soul), with Flyby Attack.

A ghost who is a favored soul might be the perfect symbiosis of race and class... :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 03:03 PM
I've also seen it argued that only 1HD monsters which are humanoid in form, can trade their 1 Hit Dice for a character level.

Ones which are not at least humanoid in shape, may not be able to do so.

Considering that's mostly argued from a standpoint of wanting to discourage or ban non-humanoid characters, I doubt that's going to be in play in this particular situation.


akma: necropolitan + evolved undead? Can't remember how that template works exactly, but I believe it gives an Int boost.

One advantage Gloura has (and I can't believe I forgot about those lovely ladies), is that with 3 levels in a skill advancing class (say, Factotum), and they're perfectly set up for Sublime Chord just on their racial bardic casting.

And I think there might be some seelie/unseelie stuff that can get added to them for more fun.

Cirrhosis
2010-12-28, 03:36 PM
Doppelganger Chameleon is always a good time. You can do whatever you want and have the stats to support it, and you don't even have to take a base class (who doesn't love that?). Alternatively: Doppelganger Factotum for the same reasons, minus the prestige-class-without-a-base-class thing.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-28, 06:02 PM
I think that was a bug- the online version in the Player's Guide to Faerun web enhancement- says "Sorcerer levels stack with base spellcasting ability"- and base spellcasting ability is based on racial hit dice.

So you get your sorcerer levels once, not twice.
A Juvenile Phaerimm Sorcerer 15 would have a caster level of 19.

Not 34.

I'm fairly certain it's a bug. But the Web Enhancement for Player's Guide to Faerun (or at least, the version I downloaded April 25th, 2009) uses the same wording as what's in Lost Empires of Faerun for the spellcasting entry:

"A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level)"

That is likely not what they meant, but it is most certainly what they said. Unfortunately: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#hitDice)
Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.
The way they worded things? If you just reference "Hit Dice", it's both racial hit dice and hit dice from class levels. By the way the books have set themselves up, they need to specify one or the other when they need to differentiate. Like here. But they didn't. So the Hatchling Phaerimm Sorcerer-10 has 10 levels of racial Sorcerer casting, and 10 levels of stacking Sorcerer casting.

Was it intended? That's rather unlikely. Is it rules as written? Yes.


I've also seen it argued that only 1HD monsters which are humanoid in form, can trade their 1 Hit Dice for a character level.

Ones which are not at least humanoid in shape, may not be able to do so.Hmm... it's potentially arguable. The subsection title is 'Humanoids and Class Levels', but the subsection says "creature" and "character", never specifically referencing 'humanoids' other than in the title, and is in the section 'monsters as races'. What's a good tiebreaker... ah, there we go: Down at the bottom, the "Experience for Monsters" subsection (which is mostly what we care about): No particularly troublesome headers for it, and it includes: "A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (class level + level adjustment). "

So I suppose, theoretically, you could argue that the first hit die doesn't go away... but if you do, you're equally open up to the other person in the debate shrugging, and pointing out that it also doesn't count for purposes of gaining XP, and thus the only thing they lose out on is potentially skills, but otherwise they get better saves, HP, and BAB than they would otherwise, at no cost to XP.

Scarlet-Devil
2010-12-28, 09:16 PM
How about something like a draconic lolth-touched Nereid? Nereids get nice stat bonuses, +cha to ac, spell-like abilities, a touch attack that's basically save vs death for anything that breathes, and some other junk.

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 10:26 PM
For a real bruiser, I found this post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9175680&postcount=34) From this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164707&page=2)about races worth the LA. Huge Size and +36 Strength for +5 LA.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-28, 10:40 PM
What's the LA on the Sharn? Not quite a Black Ethergaunt, but still potent.

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 12:21 PM
"A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's character level)".

It does? My copy says:


Spells: A phaerimm casts arcane spells as a sorcerer (caster level equals phaerimm's Hit Dice).

Urpriest
2010-12-30, 07:30 PM
It does? My copy says:

Character Level = Hit Dice

Jack_Simth
2010-12-30, 08:06 PM
It does? My copy says:
Ah - looks like I had Lost Empires open when I was referencing it. Not that it matters - the two terms are equivalent for monstrous characters.

blazingshadow
2010-12-30, 11:42 PM
pixies are nice creatures especially if you make them barbarians or fighters

The Glyphstone
2010-12-30, 11:44 PM
pixies are nice creatures especially if you make them barbarians or fighters

Whaaaaaaaaaat?

Halae
2010-12-31, 12:05 AM
Whaaaaaaaaaat?

She's right, believe it or not. a dexterity based fighting pixie can get auto flat-footed against opponents, because of it's greater invisibility. This makes them better for play as a warlock or a rogue, but the thought is there

hamishspence
2010-12-31, 09:49 AM
Character Level = Hit Dice

Not if it has an LA.
For example- a Mature Adult Phaerimm has an LA of +6, and 13 Hit dice.

It's a 19th level character- but it only has a Caster Level of 13- since it only has 13 Hit Dice.

That might be "effective character level" though.

Still- the point being- that if you ask to play a Mature Adult phaerimm, in a 19th level game- you'll be casting at 13th level. And if it's a 20th level game, and they have 1 level sorcerer, you'll be casting at 14th level.

At least, I think that is the intent. It does avoid brokenness- no allowing character levels to count twice. And only Sorcerer levels count as "Hit Dice" for the purpose of raising caster level- since they stack with racial hit dice.

A Phaerimm Fighter, would not get its caster level raised for every class hit dice taken- only for Sorcerer levels.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-31, 10:14 AM
At least, I think that is the intent. It does avoid brokenness- no allowing character levels to count twice. And only Sorcerer levels count as "Hit Dice" for the purpose of raising caster level- since they stack with racial hit dice.

A Phaerimm Fighter, would not get its caster level raised for every class hit dice taken- only for Sorcerer levels.
Is that the intent? Yes, absolutely. Is that how it's worded?
No. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#hitDice)

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.

As it's intended, Phaerim get casting based on their *racial* hit dice. As it's worded, they get casting based on their hit dice. As they forgot to specify racial, and there's no errata, as written, that Hatchling Phaerimm Sorcerer-10 is ECL 12, and casts as a Sorcerer-20 - as spell-like abilities which ignore material, somatic, verbal, focus, and XP components.

hamishspence
2010-12-31, 10:26 AM
Would anyone ever play it like that though?

If it's fairly clear to players and DMs that in this case "hit dice" refers to racial hit dice only, not character hit dice- then why stress that the way the rules are worded, allows for the other interpretation- if no-one is going to actually play with that interpretation?

A CL 20 character at level 12 is something I think most people would say is "horribly broken".

thus- it makes more sense to say "Here, Hit Dice, refers to racial hit dice only".
Even if, currently, there is no errata to explicitly say so.

It's like the "healing through drowning" method- it may not be errataed, but people can still figure out that this is not intended.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-31, 02:26 PM
Would anyone ever play it like that though?

If it's fairly clear to players and DMs that in this case "hit dice" refers to racial hit dice only, not character hit dice- then why stress that the way the rules are worded, allows for the other interpretation- if no-one is going to actually play with that interpretation?Nobody is going to play it as a Sorcerer-20 in an ECL 12 game, no.

However, +2 LA to be a strange gestalt? That's playable. A Hatchling (or in this case, Juvinile, for the See Invisibility and Telepathy, and the waiving of LA/RHD) Phaerimm Paladin-2/Monk-2/Cleric-2 (Soverign Host, Eberron: domains Pride and War)/Pious Templar-2 (note: You'll need fractional BAB to make this work, or you'll need to drop one level of Pious Templar for something with Full BAB), with Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and Ascetic Mage is not usually going to break the game (at least, not more than full casters can anyway), and is quite playable. Highly defensive (Charisma to saves & AC, Evasion, Mettle, rerolls 1's on saves), doesn't need to worry about what treasure does and does not fit (thanks to Vow of Poverty). Might need one flaw for a single extra feat to make the PrC requirements, though.

thus- it makes more sense to say "Here, Hit Dice, refers to racial hit dice only".
Even if, currently, there is no errata to explicitly say so.

It's like the "healing through drowning" method- it may not be errataed, but people can still figure out that this is not intended.
No, but it's funny... and gestalt is about +2 LA, power-wise, in *most* cases.

Captain Six
2010-12-31, 02:51 PM
It's not broken-powerful but if LA is ignored I'd take the chance to play a Dragon. Heck the DM'll be relieved to hear a player is going to play something as "normal" as a dragon with this template-buffet he's set up.

Then if you have 1 LA left take the Feral template from Savage Species. Even if it's just for the Regeneration and Pounce the Feral template is almost always worth taking.