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Lafayel
2010-12-27, 10:59 PM
For quite some time I've been baffled by the question of psionics. I have NOT seen them in a campaign yet, but am rather eager to play one. However, I hear constant horror stories about every psionic class and combo of psionic classes and their powers. Are there any opinions out there about their balance? Is it a legit set of handbooks with merit, as I feel, or should it be pitched out?

Intelligent advice on Psionics, that's what I'd like, please. Thanks

Psyren
2010-12-27, 11:04 PM
Start HERE. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered)

Return with questions :smallsmile:

(Oh, and ignore Myth 7)

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-27, 11:04 PM
Before we really start, what edition are we talking about? I'm most familiar with 3.5, and I'm a big fan and proponent of its psionics system, but I have heard bad things about other editions. This clarification can really help set the tone of the thread.

Edit: And yeah ignore myth 7 if this is 3.5. The erudite has been made official and is indeed pretty broken.

Lafayel
2010-12-27, 11:17 PM
3.5 yes. Off to that link!

Gamer Girl
2010-12-27, 11:18 PM
I've found the big reason a lot of DM's find psionics 'too powerful' is simple:

They don't understand psionics. The psionic stuff is just something odd in a book that they have only glanced at and not read much at all.

The poor Dm is just bewildered when the player says 'i'll zap this or that with this' and the DM has no idea what the player is talking about.

It's worse when the DM really, really does not understand psionics and the sneaky player can slip stuff by the DM.

And the classic adventure is written with only magic in mind, not psionics. So when a psionic character does something unique a DM can see that as 'too powerful' and 'breaking the game'.

Lafayel
2010-12-27, 11:24 PM
I've noticed that. That very few DMs have taken the time to research XPH based on either a dislike of the power source or they simply don't want to bother taking the time to understand it. Yet I've read through it many times and think that all of it has internal restrictions that do limit what they can do

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 11:24 PM
Also, new DMs, or those used to low-power games, judge the 'caster' classes based on how many D6's they can do with a Fireball spell. Unoptimized psions beat unoptimized sorcerers or wizards hands-down in a pure blasting role, so far too often that's taken as the measure for 'overpowered'.

Hyfigh
2010-12-27, 11:28 PM
Psionics, in my opinion, is what magic should have been. Metapsionics require you use your focus, so you can only (for the most part) beef up one spell per round. These spells need additional PP to be cast as nastier spells, and even to be beefed up with metapsionics. They're self capped because of the rules about not spending more PP on a power than you have ML. It's a wonderful system and only hindered by how few psionic suppliments are available compared to magic.

I honestly prefer a StP Erudite over a wizard now adays.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-27, 11:32 PM
My introduction to 3.5 D&D was the Expanded Psionics Handbook in April 2004, the month it came out. Before was only 2nd ed.

I bought it literally so I could read the fluff. I liked it so much I then started brushing up on 3.5 and switched permanently to it.

It was not until almost a year later I read up on the caster classes and was rather put off by how powerful and yet uninteresting they seemed to be. Never found anything you could abuse with psionics that you can't abuse worse with the arcane.

Psionics is and always will be welcome in my games, which are never sci-fi like. There is no reason it need be. It works in any setting, and both games I'm running now are psionic-based. There is magic, but it's not widespread.

My games tend to have it heavily dream-related, and the psychometabolic stuff is unlike almost anything in any magic system, so it's not even unlikable to to originality issues.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-27, 11:34 PM
I honestly prefer a StP Erudite over a wizard now adays.

What is this I don't even (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat)

Coidzor
2010-12-27, 11:35 PM
Half of the problem seems to be people who can't accept psionics in a fantasy setting, seeing it as inherently sci-fi in their fantasy and not in the way of peanut butter and chocolate.

bartman
2010-12-27, 11:42 PM
One thing to consider, and this is more of a DM call i feel, is does psionics = magic. ie: does an anti-magic field suppress psionic effects as well? Would detect magic detect psionics? I have never played one myself, and all of my DMs do not like the idea of having to read and figure out another book, so it is generally off the table, but I too would love to play one, and this is something that has been brought up with my group before.

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-27, 11:48 PM
Psionics can be really awsome for a campaign when properly applied, but this involves commitment from both the DM and the Players.

I'm currently running a campaign that has Psionics as a pretty heavy plot point, the players have yet to encounter psionics but they have been properly warned and as such, I also left the door open should they want to play a psionic character (They didn't).

Meanwhile I am currently reading the Psionics Handbook and the Expanded Psionics, as well as the respective threads in WOTC forum. The experience has to be balanced for the players to not try to attack me, fun, for the players to not hate the appearance of any psionic character, and fluid, for the players to not despise the psionics system. I am currently working toward making that a reality for their first encounter with a psion.

The system of psionics is not broken from my point of view but I believe it is not widely used as it is kind of a relatively modern concept, more akin to Science Fiction than to Fantasy, that normally stops the DM from introducing it, which is further aggravated by myths.

The commitment is needed because, introducing psionics is introducing a whole new concept into the game, whole new mechanics that although similar to casting have its own workings.

Psionics, like anything in DnD is to be handled with responsibility by both sides. If I let a player play a druid with a Barbarian in the party, I expect a modicum of behavior and self-control since I'm giving him a wide repertoire for him to have fun, but allow others to also have fun. This will always work if responsibility and commitment are reached. If you play with an infighting party of teenagers, I can assure you even a campaign based around unoptimized monks fighting unoptimized trunamers would degenerate into (Harmless for the characters, Lethal for the players) fighting were no one would actually end up killing anything but themselves, and eventually one would try to gain control, kinda like Lord of the Flies the RPG.

Godskook
2010-12-27, 11:50 PM
Best argument I've ever heard for why Psionics is a good system:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8144131&postcount=30

On the other hand, psionics suffers from the same problem almost all of the non-core mechanic expansions do. It is harder to play a psionic character poorly compared to a core character. Same with ToB, MoI, Binder, Warlock, DFA, and similar. They're easy-sauce to get to 'decent'.

wayfare
2010-12-27, 11:51 PM
I've GM'd and Played psionic characters, and I think it really is a mover versatile version of magic -- as an earlier poster said, what magic should have been. My primary reason for saying this is that, your lower level effect tend to keep pace with your higher level effects because of how manifesting works -- psionic rays, which are more or less magic missile, get better as you level up. They keep pace, and that's great.

Additionally, and this could just be me, but the fluff feels better in psionics. Magic is never really given a great backstory -- psionics seems to have it built in. Like i said, perhaps its just me.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 11:57 PM
One thing to consider, and this is more of a DM call i feel, is does psionics = magic. ie: does an anti-magic field suppress psionic effects as well? Would detect magic detect psionics? I have never played one myself, and all of my DMs do not like the idea of having to read and figure out another book, so it is generally off the table, but I too would love to play one, and this is something that has been brought up with my group before.

Actually the transparency (IE Anti-magic field affecting psionic powers and null psionic field affecting spells for example) is the default rule.

And the only thing I feel psionics are better than magic is at abusing action economy... but that is usually high level combos and stuff.

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-28, 12:02 AM
Additionally, and this could just be me, but the fluff feels better in psionics. Magic is never really given a great backstory -- psionics seems to have it built in. Like i said, perhaps its just me.

That's because psionics is pulled from Science-Fiction which has a tendency to try to explain things, also, psionics is something being considered as a possibility by modern technology (someone will probably find the right wikipedia/cracked article before I ever do).

Magic is the explanation for everything that cannot be explained, ergo, explaining it would kinda defeat its purpose. What you can do is explain its workings, but at the end of the day, YOU JUST STOPPED TIME!, or YOU WALKED IN THE AIR!, while psionics at least can fall back into a (still ridiculously magical) but at least believable "logic".

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-28, 12:02 AM
The system of psionics is not broken from my point of view but I believe it is not widely used as it is kind of a relatively modern concept, more akin to Science Fiction than to Fantasy, that normally stops the DM from introducing it, which is further aggravated by myths.
Except it's not a relatively modern concept. Asian beliefs are much more in line with psionics than magic. Meditation, ki, oneiropathy and similar. Fakirs, mentals, wise men, you name it.

The concentration and manipulation of one's inner powers, physically and/or mentally, and its life force.

These just aren't western-style stuff in general.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 12:04 AM
That's because psionics is pulled from Science-Fiction which has a tendency to try to explain things, also, psionics is something being considered as a possibility by modern technology (someone will probably find the right wikipedia/cracked article before I ever do).

Magic is the explanation for everything that cannot be explained, ergo, explaining it would kinda defeat its purpose. What you can do is explain its workings, but at the end of the day, YOU JUST STOPPED TIME!, or YOU WALKED IN THE AIR!, while psionics at least can fall back into a (still ridiculously magical) but at least believable "logic".

And that doesn't even work for D&D psionics. It's about as well-justified as divine magic is, the only difference is that you do magic by thinking hard at things instead of calling to gods for help.

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-28, 12:06 AM
Except it's not a relatively modern concept. Asian beliefs are much more in line with psionics than magic. Meditation, ki, and similar. Fakirs, mentals, wise men, you name it.

The concentration and manipulation of one's inner powers, physically and/or mentally, and its life force.

Yes, that is true, but itself the concept is strongly western, moving things with your mind and as such are heavily Science Fiction and the perspective given in DnD is more akin to this then the Asian "fluff", in Science Fiction it was mostly explained with Technology or Genius, or non-lethal radioactive poisoning, while Asian stuff, while strongly centred in the mind, always invoked some incorporeal power or deity that allowed you to channel it.


And that doesn't even work for D&D psionics. It's about as well-justified as divine magic is, the only difference is that you do magic by thinking hard at things instead of calling to gods for help.

At least they kept the explanation for psionics consistent, while divine magic allows you to cast an spell of an oposed alignment without any real burden, meaning that as a cleric of Pelor you could be rising an undead army.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 12:09 AM
Yes, that is true, but itself the concept is strongly western, moving things with your mind and as such are heavily Science Fiction and the perspective given in DnD is more akin to this then the Asian "fluff", in Science Fiction it was mostly explained with Technology or Genius, or non-lethal radioactive poisoning, while Asian stuff, while strongly centred in the mind, always invoked some incorporeal power or deity that allowed you to channel it.

And then D&D comes along and basically explains it like the Little Engine That Could.

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-28, 12:11 AM
And then D&D comes along and basically explains it like the Little Engine That Could.

Well, you can always ignore the fluff. But yes, at least they didn't try to explain it like they did with Time Stop or other Spells which actually provoke arguments when used with different applications and feats. In Psionics you just think hard about it, and don't try to think too hard about it.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-28, 12:15 AM
while Asian stuff, while strongly centred in the mind, always invoked some incorporeal power or deity that allowed you to channel it.
...in some cases perhaps, but we're talking radically different ideas, but all based around the mental, from Japan down to India. You didn't invoke other powers through every single belief system.

However, like ki and all that, the belief that we can all link our life force and mind together still isn't religious or arcane. It's still something supposedly inside us all. It's energy from ourselves, that can be linked to by others. That's very psionicy to me.

In my games psionics is more in depth than the other powers. You manipulated things by knowing them so in depth you could touch them with your mind in just the right way. Psychometabolic powers are because of your extreme sensitivity to how your own body works and can then force it to change itself. It has real life equivalents in many cases, those able to adjust heart rate and blood flow and similar. Psionics simply take it to the level of fantasy.

It's not like divine where powers do things for you, or arcane where you learn to push the right buttons and things happen. Psionics is simply Knowing at a level beyond most other's comprehension.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 12:15 AM
Well, you can always ignore the fluff. But yes, at least they didn't try to explain it like they did with Time Stop or other Spells which actually provoke arguments when used with different applications and feats. In Psionics you just think hard about it, and don't try to think too hard about it.

As long as you ignore everything written in CPsionics, at least. That waste of paper was a perversion of all Psionic stand for in more than just mechanics.

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-28, 12:17 AM
...in some cases perhaps, but we're talking radically different ideas, but all based around the mental, from Japan down to India. You didn't invoke other powers through every single belief system.

However, like ki and all that, the belief that we can all link our life force and mind together still isn't religious or arcane. It's still something supposedly inside us all. It's energy from ourselves, that can be linked to by others. That's very psionicy to me.

I will concede to you on this, the energy is there, but there is normally some weird intervention-y stuff involved too, not always direct divine revelation, but it's also strongly related to magic and whatnot. Sadly, DnD Psionics doesn't explore this beautiful facet of the concept, instead giving it as a substitute for magic to monks if I'm not wrong.


As long as you ignore everything written in CPsionics, at least. That waste of paper was a perversion of all Psionic stand for in more than just mechanics.

And I whole heartedly agree with you on this.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-28, 12:21 AM
Hey no need to be so harsh to CPsi, after all it did bring us the Ardent, the Anarchic Initiate and IIRC the awesome power of Inconsistant Location (probably my favourite power)

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-28, 12:27 AM
Hey no need to be so harsh to CPsi, after all it did bring us the... Anarchic Initiate
A PrC that destroys the fluff of psionics by drawing power from another source instead of the self.

There is also the fact that it's easier for psions to take than wilders due to the fact wilders do not get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill. Not that they should have to since this is psionics :smallannoyed:



I will concede to you on this, the energy is there, but there is normally some weird intervention-y stuff involved too, not always direct divine revelation, but it's also strongly related to magic and whatnot.
In every single asian mental practice? :smallconfused:

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-28, 12:36 AM
In every single asian mental practice? :smallconfused:

No not on everyone single mental practice, but a lot of them, mostly the once related to affecting stuff outside yourself.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-28, 12:38 AM
No not on everyone single mental practice, but a lot of them, mostly the once related to affecting stuff outside yourself.
Psionics out of almost any other system is probably the most geared towards self-affecting however. Psychic warrior for instance has practically nothing that effects anything outside itself.

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-28, 12:51 AM
Psionics out of almost any other system is probably the most geared towards self-affecting however. Psychic warrior for instance has practically nothing that effects anything outside itself.

Not psionics, determined branches of it, most of the psionic powers affect other things. And I alredy conceded to your original point, in theory, the Oriental mental disciplines are more similar to the concept of pure psionics than the Western Science Fiction portrayals.

Incanur
2010-12-28, 09:34 AM
The psion in particular is a powerhouse class. Not as much so as the cleric or wizard, but still capable of breaking the game at high levels. If you allow other tier 1 and 2 classes it doesn't matter and should be balanced enough for your game.

Tech Boy
2010-12-28, 09:40 AM
I've found the big reason a lot of DM's find psionics 'too powerful' is simple:

They don't understand psionics. The psionic stuff is just something odd in a book that they have only glanced at and not read much at all.

The poor Dm is just bewildered when the player says 'i'll zap this or that with this' and the DM has no idea what the player is talking about.

It's worse when the DM really, really does not understand psionics and the sneaky player can slip stuff by the DM.

And the classic adventure is written with only magic in mind, not psionics. So when a psionic character does something unique a DM can see that as 'too powerful' and 'breaking the game'.


This has just happened to me. You have explained exactly what my DM said to a T.

Hyfigh
2010-12-28, 02:23 PM
What is this I don't even (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat)

Are you questioning my statement (I like the StP Erudite better than the Wizard in D&D 3.5 - I don't know if I can make that more clear...) or you don't know what StP (Spell-to-Power Alternate Class Feature) Erudite is?

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-28, 02:28 PM
The StP Erudite is the most powerful base class in the entire game. I could be wrong but I think he's just saying that he thinks it's broken and ought not to be used.

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 02:29 PM
Are you questioning my statement (I like the StP Erudite better than the Wizard in D&D 3.5 - I don't know if I can make that more clear...) or you don't know what StP (Spell-to-Power Alternate Class Feature) Erudite is?

I think it's that the StP Erudite is just a bit on the overpowered side.

Flickerdart
2010-12-28, 02:34 PM
It's honestly not that bad if you stick to the RAI interpretation (11 unique powers per day at level 20) instead of the RAW (11 unique powers per level per day).

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 02:48 PM
It's honestly not that bad if you stick to the RAI interpretation (11 unique powers per day at level 20) instead of the RAW (11 unique powers per level per day).


I think it's that the StP Erudite is just a bit on the overpowered side.


The StP Erudite is the most powerful base class in the entire game. I could be wrong but I think he's just saying that he thinks it's broken and ought not to be used.


Are you questioning my statement (I like the StP Erudite better than the Wizard in D&D 3.5 - I don't know if I can make that more clear...) or you don't know what StP (Spell-to-Power Alternate Class Feature) Erudite is?

They have it right. It makes munchkins cry themselves to sleep at night in envy. Lolmentalpinnacle?

Forged Fury
2010-12-28, 02:52 PM
As long as you ignore everything written in CPsionics, at least. That waste of paper was a perversion of all Psionic stand for in more than just mechanics.
Well... not everything. I love Dimension Hop.

Blackfang108
2010-12-28, 02:53 PM
Well... not everything. I love Dimension Hop.

I love the Ardent and the Lurk. And the Soulbow.

Hyfigh
2010-12-28, 02:57 PM
It's honestly not that bad if you stick to the RAI interpretation (11 unique powers per day at level 20) instead of the RAW (11 unique powers per level per day).

This.

Likewise, I don't tend to game break when I play period so playing a broken class isn't that bad if you don't try to break the game.

I like the flavor better, and the mechanics make more sense in my pea-brain...

Stegyre
2010-12-28, 03:51 PM
I love the Ardent and the Lurk. And the Soulbow.
Adding to the love:

I love Dimensional Pocket and Psychoportive Shelter, Anarchic Initiates, Mantles, . . .

My psi would be sorely lacking without CPsi.

Forged Fury
2010-12-28, 03:54 PM
Psychoportive ShelterI really like this power too. I really thought some of the powers were pretty cool from CPsi.

sonofzeal
2010-12-28, 04:01 PM
The problem with CPsi is not that it lacks useable content, it's that it screws up content that already existed.

The clearest example is Astral Construct. In EPH, the function was the same as Summon Monster, and worked fine. At some levels it was better, at some it was worse, overall it was comparable. In CPsi however, they decided to nerf it by limiting you to one. Note that there's no such comparable limit for Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally. There was no exploitive loophole being plugged. There was no suggestion of this limitation in the original rules. In effect, it's a stealth-errata nerf.

And it's not the only one - there's also the caveat about powers interacting poorly with DR. Arcane and Divine spells always ignore DR if they're damage-type spells (Spiritual Weapon and whatnot have their own rules of course). And iirc, that's how Psi worked too, and there was nothing wrong with that. But in CPsi, someone had the bright idea to change it, make it worse, and make it worse in a way that doesn't make sense given game precedence.

So CPsi gets a lot of hate.

mucco
2010-12-28, 04:02 PM
Psionics, IMO, look broken because it's hard to build a weak character with them. If the average DnD group has a wizard who spams fireballs and a fighter who takes WF in three different weapons for "versatility", then any blind monkey will "break the game" with a psion or psywar.

It's just that it doesn't take any effort to optimize psions since there's just one manual to choose powers and feats from; and almost all options are valid choices. If people are playing core+XPH, there is almost no way a fighter can stand up to a psion - thus, they get the broken perception. Wizards don't suffer from this problem, because they'll likely choose subpar spells like their fellow fighters. Can you really go wrong with energy ray and overchannel?

If the party optimizes, that's another story, and any full caster will hold its own against psions.

Flickerdart
2010-12-28, 04:13 PM
Psionics, IMO, look broken because it's hard to build a weak character with them. If the average DnD group has a wizard who spams fireballs and a fighter who takes WF in three different weapons for "versatility", then any blind monkey will "break the game" with a psion or psywar.

It's just that it doesn't take any effort to optimize psions since there's just one manual to choose powers and feats from; and almost all options are valid choices. If people are playing core+XPH, there is almost no way a fighter can stand up to a psion - thus, they get the broken perception. Wizards don't suffer from this problem, because they'll likely choose subpar spells like their fellow fighters. Can you really go wrong with energy ray and overchannel?

If the party optimizes, that's another story, and any full caster will hold its own against psions.
That's not really a fair comparison, because Energy Ray + Overchannel is actually decent optimization. Someone who doesn't augment anything because they want to last longer is more comparable to your triple-WF fighter, and isn't likely to be very impressive. There's also a fair share of crappy powers and feats in psionics.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 05:14 PM
The problem with CPsi is not that it lacks useable content, it's that it screws up content that already existed.

The clearest example is Astral Construct. In EPH, the function was the same as Summon Monster, and worked fine. At some levels it was better, at some it was worse, overall it was comparable. In CPsi however, they decided to nerf it by limiting you to one. Note that there's no such comparable limit for Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally. There was no exploitive loophole being plugged. There was no suggestion of this limitation in the original rules. In effect, it's a stealth-errata nerf.

And it's not the only one - there's also the caveat about powers interacting poorly with DR. Arcane and Divine spells always ignore DR if they're damage-type spells (Spiritual Weapon and whatnot have their own rules of course). And iirc, that's how Psi worked too, and there was nothing wrong with that. But in CPsi, someone had the bright idea to change it, make it worse, and make it worse in a way that doesn't make sense given game precedence.

So CPsi gets a lot of hate.

Not to mention the mutilation it did on the fluff. Just in the basic powers - things like Energy Ray aren't spontaneously creating fire or even kinetically shaking molecules until they combust from friction or something, they're opening tiny gates to the Plane of Fire and drawing stuff from that. All the 'Stygian' powers, psionics don't cause negative levels by memory wiping, but from siphoning power out of the Abyss. And that's without touching stuff like the Divine Mind, or the Storm Disciple (how is this psionic?) or the Illithid Flayerspawn (durr what?).

CPsionic has some gems, but it's buried under such an incredible load of drek that it's almost not worth digging.

Trekkin
2010-12-28, 05:25 PM
Or that one power that summons larval mind flayers. For some reason that always struck me as a rather random choice around which to base an entire power, especially since it did not augment well at all--it seemed more suited to a Summon spell.

Bang!
2010-12-28, 05:37 PM
Since we're talking about the abomination that is CPsi, it might be useful to point out some good psionics supplements.

The Malhavoc Press's Hyperconscious (by one of the authors of the EPH), the Dreamscarred Press (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/)'s resources and WotC's Mind's Eye (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/) article series are generally good materials, which don't undermine EPH flavor text or tear the action economy to pieces with things like anticipatory strike, link power or synchronicity. They all do have some of same sort of boring "X, Psionic" classes, feats, and powers as CPsi, but the work is generally much more clean and coherent.

Flickerdart
2010-12-28, 05:47 PM
StP Erudite is actually from Mind's Eye, so it's not completely blameless.

Psyren
2010-12-28, 07:30 PM
I love the Ardent and the Lurk. And the Soulbow.

If the Lurk had 6+Int skills and trapfinding I'd be a huge fan. (And not "psionic trapfinding" which they got from Mind's Eye - I mean the real thing.)

As it is, they're poor skillmonkeys and mediocre combatants, which leaves them in a T4-ish limbo of not being very good at anything. Playable, but unfocused.


It's honestly not that bad if you stick to the RAI interpretation (11 unique powers per day at level 20) instead of the RAW (11 unique powers per level per day).

Even that interpretation doesn't hold Erudites back as much as it appears to. For one, it only applies to you; any other manifester in your party can draw on your vast library of utility and niche powers whenever a relevant situation arises, and manifest it from your head without affecting your UPD. For two, nothing keeps them from using their repertoires to craft dorjes/stones or other psionic items either, and with their bonus feats (they effectively get one more than even a psion) they can afford to pick up at least a few crafting feats.


Since we're talking about the abomination that is CPsi, it might be useful to point out some good psionics supplements.

The Malhavoc Press's Hyperconscious (by one of the authors of the EPH), the Dreamscarred Press (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/)'s resources and WotC's Mind's Eye (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/) article series are generally good materials, which don't undermine EPH flavor text or tear the action economy to pieces with things like anticipatory strike, link power or synchronicity. They all do have some of same sort of boring "X, Psionic" classes, feats, and powers as CPsi, but the work is generally much more clean and coherent.

Hyperconscious is very far from boring. I did a write-up on its contents somewhere else on this board, but in a nutshell - it brings back and fixes the flavorful "mindscape combat" from 3.0 psionics, making it mechanically sound as well. The PrCs and feats are great, and the included setting has nice ideas as well that can be ported over to existing or custom campaigns.

It's an excellent book :smallsmile:

AslanCross
2010-12-28, 07:39 PM
I've found the big reason a lot of DM's find psionics 'too powerful' is simple:

They don't understand psionics. The psionic stuff is just something odd in a book that they have only glanced at and not read much at all.

The poor Dm is just bewildered when the player says 'i'll zap this or that with this' and the DM has no idea what the player is talking about.

It's worse when the DM really, really does not understand psionics and the sneaky player can slip stuff by the DM.

And the classic adventure is written with only magic in mind, not psionics. So when a psionic character does something unique a DM can see that as 'too powerful' and 'breaking the game'.

^Truth.

I have to admit it took me a while before I understood how 3.5 psionics worked, but that was mostly because I didn't want to give it the light of day. Once I started running Eberron, which assumes psionics is part of the campaign, I had to brush up on it. I realized it works quite well, and while there ARE abuses, they're far less glaring and the system adds a lot to a standard campaign.

The only thing I find abominable in the XPH is the Thri-Kreen. That will never see the light of day as a player race in my campaigns.

Bang!
2010-12-28, 08:01 PM
Hyperconscious is very far from boring.
Oh, no. I didn't mean to steer anyone away from those sources when I mentioned the repackaged contents. I meant more to voice my instinctive cringe to see someone selling content like Sleep, Dream and Phantasmal Killer [ ... but Psionic!]. The contents of the book are generally very neat, and it makes sense that the publishers would give psions sleep and dream-related abilities, given the rest of the book's materials, but those sorts of rehashes just make my eyes glaze.

Rob Roy
2010-12-28, 08:26 PM
As long as you ignore everything written in CPsionics, at least. That waste of paper was a perversion of all Psionic stand for in more than just mechanics.
I'm a psionics fan, and I have no clue what CPsionics is. Could some please elaborate on what this thread is calling a perversion of psionics?

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 08:27 PM
I'm a psionics fan, and I have no clue what CPsionics is. Could some please elaborate on what this thread is calling a perversion of psionics?

Complete Psionics.

Greenish
2010-12-28, 08:40 PM
http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/bestselling-sci-fi-fantasy-2007/1048-1.jpg

The second (and last) supplement focused on 3.5 psionics. Many psionics-aficionados prefer to pretend it never happened.

Rob Roy
2010-12-28, 08:42 PM
The second (and last) supplement focused on 3.5 psionics. Many psionics-aficionados prefer to pretend it never happened.
Explain why I don't remember it. I just blotted it out of my memory.

Lateral
2010-12-28, 08:47 PM
A lot of it is stuff that ruins psionics' fluff and/or completely nerfs things that don't need nerfing.

Psyren
2010-12-28, 09:27 PM
I can't read the Divine Mind fluff without projectile vomiting. :smallyuk:

I like the idea of psychic auras though (which became part of the 4e Ardent). A feat to add them to the Ardent and/or the various "mantled" classes would be interesting.


Oh, no. I didn't mean to steer anyone away from those sources when I mentioned the repackaged contents. I meant more to voice my instinctive cringe to see someone selling content like Sleep, Dream and Phantasmal Killer [ ... but Psionic!]. The contents of the book are generally very neat, and it makes sense that the publishers would give psions sleep and dream-related abilities, given the rest of the book's materials, but those sorts of rehashes just make my eyes glaze.

You'll like Pathfinder then - the Dreamscarred Press guys worked on their psionics supplement (Psionics Unleashed) and one of the design goals was to remove/rename all the "X, Psionic" powers :smallsmile:

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 09:52 PM
There are psychic auras in Comp Psi? Hmm, I'll have to risk cracking it open then.

Hmm... Actually, what would you say would be the most important parts of the psionic rules to impress upon the DM if one wanted to run a psionic character with a DM unfamiliar with the system?

I know one of the big ones is no more points to augment a power than manifester levels(and I think I even remembered it correctly).

sonofzeal
2010-12-28, 09:58 PM
There are psychic auras in Comp Psi? Hmm, I'll have to risk cracking it open then.

Hmm... Actually, what would you say would be the most important parts of the psionic rules to impress upon the DM if one wanted to run a psionic character with a DM unfamiliar with the system?

I know one of the big ones is no more points to augment a power than manifester levels(and I think I even remembered it correctly).
Are you selling the DM, or teaching the DM?

For teaching - yeah, augment limited by ML. Not affected by ASF, but is affected by attacks of opportunity. No somatic or verbal components, but unless otherwise specified the manifester's eyes glow and various other noticeable effects accompany the actual power, giving away his position. "Psionic Focus" is a single-use token resource; various feats give you benefit when you "tap" it, and other feats give you benefit while you still have it, and restoring it is generally a full round action and a concentration check.