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mrcarter11
2010-12-28, 01:43 AM
I need help deciding on a gestalt combination. I'm not completely sure, but I'm under the impression the group needs a utility caster.
As it stands, we have a big glass cannon who can scout and disarm traps. A giant melee machine who can also tank. A guy who can do just about everything from buffs, healing, crowd control, or even heavy melee. And a battlefield controller, who can do serious debuff work. So, I'm thinking a utility caster is just what we needed. Now, I wanted to try an artificer//archivist. The main problem is I don't understand either class, but it seems to fit pretty well.
Thoughts?
Also, I'm trying to avoid using Wizard.

Salanmander
2010-12-28, 01:59 AM
Artificer and archivist are both pretty tough if you're having trouble understanding them, though they do fit the bill. They also overlap a lot in role if you're using them both for utility casting. I would recommend picking /either/ artificer or archivist, and having your other side be less high-maintenance. You might go with something like monk (with carmendine monk or whatever it is to get int to AC) to increase your durability, stealthiness, and ability to run away.

Another option that would be very high power would be archivist//druid/master of many forms. One disadvantage is that it requires lots of bookkeeping (and book trawling for forms), but if you understand wildshape better than you're understanding artificer/archivist, this might not be that big a problem. Another potential problem is that it might be good enough to get a book thrown at you. A MoMF can out-melee pretty much any other class in a mid-level optimization setting, and you'd be throwing full casting on top of it. You also don't really need to worry about ability synnergy, as focusing on wildshaping makes you...er....NAD? (no-ability dependent).

2xMachina
2010-12-28, 08:10 AM
^ Need Int and Wis high though. (Though you could dump all other stats)

Or:
Psionic Artificer//Archivist?

All divine, most arcane, all psionic (UPD) + WBL abuse.
Utility? If it exists, you got it.

Salanmander
2010-12-28, 04:19 PM
^ Need Int and Wis high though. (Though you could dump all other stats)


Master of Many Forms hardly needs wis at all. Your wildshaping doesn't depend on it, and it doesn't progress spellcasting, so if your saves will suck anyway. Wis 13 is just fine for them.

Bang!
2010-12-28, 04:26 PM
Archivist//Artificer has great synergy, but both are very demanding in terms of both out-of-game paperwork and in-game time (between crafting items, finding scrolls and transcribing spells). You might want to ask about the nature of the campaign - if you're going to spend weeks on a ship between adventures, the combination could be brilliant; if you're using gestalt because your DM wants to increase character endurance for a campaign that only lasts 5 days, you might want to look for a different combination.

2xMachina
2010-12-28, 10:51 PM
Master of Many Forms hardly needs wis at all. Your wildshaping doesn't depend on it, and it doesn't progress spellcasting, so if your saves will suck anyway. Wis 13 is just fine for them.

Oh, doesn't advance spellcasting. I don't really use those... so I didn't know.

mrcarter11
2010-12-28, 10:56 PM
Well.. IG time it is fine.. I honestly don't understand crafting.. So it makes artificer near impossible to use.. As for the other class, it seems like a wizard who uses Cleric spells. Am I missing something?

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-28, 11:07 PM
Archivist is like a Wizard who uses Divine Spells, rather than Arcane. That is, all Divine spells, not just Cleric Spells. So that gem on the Druid list? It's yours. That nifty little Ranger spell? Yep, you can cast that. Combine with Prestige Paladin and Battle Blessing at your own risk.

As to a combination, why not Artificer//Factotum? Int Synergy, a whole bunch of spells per day (Arcane Dilettante + Archivist Spells), action economy abuse, lots of skills, etc.

Escheton
2010-12-28, 11:08 PM
Nope, thats pretty much it. Favored soul is a sorc version of cleric, Archivist is the wizard version.

And as far as utility goes, this combo fits. It just takes dedication and time. Both in game and out.

HunterOfJello
2010-12-29, 02:13 AM
Archivist and Artificer are two of the most complicated classes to play. If you don't already understand either of them, then avoid both.

Godskook
2010-12-29, 02:27 AM
As to a combination, why not Artificer//Factotum? Int Synergy, a whole bunch of spells per day (Arcane Dilettante + Archivist Spells), action economy abuse, lots of skills, etc.

Arcane Dilettante gives so few spells/day that it isn't worth mentioning alongside "fullcasting".

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-29, 01:11 PM
Arcane Dilettante gives so few spells/day that it isn't worth mentioning alongside "fullcasting".

Not really, as their use is based on inspiration points, which refresh for every encounter. It doesn't give you terribly many unique spells per day, but if you're just using them for utility then that should be alright, I figure.

It doesn't compare to full casting, but nothing really does.

Godskook
2010-12-29, 01:22 PM
Not really, as their use is based on inspiration points, which refresh for every encounter. It doesn't give you terribly many unique spells per day, but if you're just using them for utility then that should be alright, I figure.

It doesn't compare to full casting, but nothing really does.

No, their use is also based on inspiration points, as in, you're limited to choosing 8 unique spells(at level 20), each usable 1/day, but you must also spend inspiration points to use them. At that level, one of them is a level 7 spell, and the other 7 are level 6 or less.

At the same point, an Archivist has 15+ slots of level 7 or better(depending on his ability scores for bonus spells).

Waker
2010-12-29, 07:55 PM
Archivist/Bard wouldn't be too bad. Dark Knowledge + Inspire Courage could be a huge help, especially if you throw in a few spells from either spell list in there to further buff the party. You'd have highest save progression for everything, the skills from both classes sync up fine and access to a ton of of spells. The archivist spells could serve as your specific situation spells, while your bard spells could be chosen for those that are used constantly.

Archivist/Beguiler would also be fun. The Beguiler would give you a number of handy skills like Surprise Casting and Cloaked Casting. Cloaked Casting is great, increasing the DC of any spell you cast and eventually being able to ignore SR. Not to mention getting a few free feats and spells. And lastly, both classes go off Intelligence, so no worries about attributes. Spell selection and use would follow pretty much the same example as the bard.

I like the Artificer, but the casting time for most infusions makes it difficult to buff up multiple people, and nigh impossible in combat. For a Gestalt character, I like Artificers more when mixed with Fighter or other equipment heavy characters to self-buff, plus any warforged character is fine. Of course you could walk around with a bandoleer of wands and scrolls, would be an interesting approach to the utility caster (" Lemme check my bag...yes! I do have a wand that can do that!").

veven
2010-12-29, 08:11 PM
^ I agree with this post, although archivist and beguiler are my two favorite classes so i might be biased.

Archivist is great and well worth the time to learn, the dark knowledge abilities are certainly useful and keyed off of skill checks so it's easy to optimize them.

Beguilers are just awesome. so much fun.

mrcarter11
2010-12-30, 02:57 AM
Thoughts on a Favored Soul//Sorcerer?

2xMachina
2010-12-30, 02:59 AM
For utility? Pretty bad.

Great blasting though.

mrcarter11
2010-12-30, 03:08 AM
You think? Cleric buffs, all good saves, and wizard spells.. He can have the team do the main things.. He can batman like that, couldn't he?

Bang!
2010-12-30, 03:18 AM
If you mean use the tactics and strategies encouraged by TLN's Batman guide, no.
The entire point was that the Wizard has access to an absurd number of different effects and has the means to determine which will be necessary ahead of time.
Double spontaneous casting is pretty much the opposite of that (unless it includes Psychic Reformation).

EDIT:
Favored Soul//Sorcerer could be a powerhouse in terms of spell output. Check out the War Weaver's guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5881.0) (including its sample builds) for some ideas (the builds themselves are kind of extreme, but in gestalt you should be able to pick out the 2-3 most important features and emulate them without their silly tricks/cheese).

EDIT2:
[link]

2xMachina
2010-12-30, 05:08 AM
You think? Cleric buffs, all good saves, and wizard spells.. He can have the team do the main things.. He can batman like that, couldn't he?

If you want all cleric buffs and wizard spells, play a Wizard(/Artificer/STP Erudite)//Archivist instead.

Foc. Spec gives you as much spell slots as a Sorc. And your banned schools can be shored up by your Archivist side. Divine usually has most of the Abjuration and Necromancy spells.

Saves suffer though.

As for Artificers. The infusions aren't meant for buffs (they can be, but way too slow. Best for out of combat utility).
For spell casters, they have spell slots. For you, there is WBL and XP. If you've the Gold and XP, you can cast spells. How much can you get?

Basically, you have up to 50% of the your WBL but limited by XP. Try ending up always 1 lvl below, and your extra XP and craft reserve gets you enough wands/scrolls to be able to emulate a Wizard.

You could get more gold by taking the Artisan feats (pay 37.5% to craft), and charging the standard 50% to craft for your team. You get 12.5% of the rest's WBL, and 50% of your own to fuel your Wand casting.