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View Full Version : Angel vs. Archon [3.5]



Tvtyrant
2010-12-28, 03:23 AM
So I was looking through ye olde monster manual (3.5) and I was considering the differences between the Astral Deva Angel and the Trumpet Archon and noticed that they shared the same CR. However they seem to go about very different means to the same results (spell likes versus prepped spells) so my question to the playgrounders is which one of them is more powerful. I have my own opinion but I would prefer to hear someone else's.

Runestar
2010-12-28, 04:08 AM
Trumpet archon seems like it would have the advantage vs the PCs, since it has more liberty to use its spells to prebuff and during combat.

Conversely, at-will SLAs may not be so useful to the astral deva when it doesn't have infinite actions to spam them to his heart's content.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-28, 04:31 AM
I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

FelixG
2010-12-28, 05:41 AM
I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

Ray attacks normally ignore DR as is...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm



A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks.

Runestar
2010-12-28, 06:07 AM
I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

The rays actually deal 2d12 damage each, though 4d12 damage averages just 26 damage, hardly amazing at lv13.

That's because having a great deal of special abilities is not that useful when you are expected to face the PCs for 3-5 rounds of combat, so most of its special attacks will be underutilized. It's greatest weakness is that it has just 65 hp, making it extremely fragile. Even with dr, a fighter can still 1-shot it on a full-attack.

Not to mention that it cannot cast spells in globe form.

This is why the ghaele has a cr of just 13 but an ECL of 20. :smallsmile:

The trumpet archon would essentially fight as a cleric14, just that it has better resistances and immunities, and some extra abilities like double-aura and stun. Take advantage of BOED, give it spells like greater luminous armour?

AslanCross
2010-12-28, 06:48 AM
I just discovered something horrifying: The Ghaele casts like a level 14 Cleric, gets an ungodly amount of spell like abilities, ray attacks that do 2d6 and overcome all DR, and its CR is only 13 according to the SRD. Its essentially the two of them combined and then they lowered the CR. :(

There's many other CR travesties, but I think Monster Manual II is the worst offender. The Gray Linnorm is one oddity. 17th-level casting on a dragon-type probably merits a CR 20, but it only has 13 HD and less than 150 HP. As such, a level-appropriate encounter with it probably results in rocket tag. (Then again, isn't that the case for most things at that level?)

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-28, 06:50 AM
The CR system doesn't really work that well.

Shock.

Runestar
2010-12-28, 07:05 AM
The CR system doesn't really work that well.

Shock.

More like it can't accurately capture the effectiveness of monsters with stats that deviate too greatly from the norm. Monsters with too few hp pose a problem if they lose initiative and get creamed before having a chance to act.

Hence, you see the shift towards more standardised stats in 4e. :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-28, 07:22 AM
More like it can't accurately capture the effectiveness of monsters with stats that deviate too greatly from the norm. Monsters with too few hp pose a problem if they lose initiative and get creamed before having a chance to act.

Hence, you see the shift towards more standardised stats in 4e. :smallsmile:

So what you're saying is... the CR system doesn't really work that well?

Runestar
2010-12-28, 07:31 AM
So what you're saying is... the CR system doesn't really work that well?

Oh it works, as well as a lv-based indicator ever can at any rate, IMO. :smallsmile:

Tvtyrant
2010-12-28, 05:35 PM
I'm thinking the Archon is probably the stronger of the two, especially in a fight. Full casting tends to be better then spell likes IMO.

Eldonauran
2010-12-28, 06:31 PM
Oh it works, as well as a lv-based indicator ever can at any rate, IMO. :smallsmile:

CR system works just fine ... if you don't optimize. AT ALL. PERIOD!!! Oh, and restrict that to the Core books (PHB, DMG and MM1).

That is all. :smallamused:

Hyfigh
2010-12-28, 06:49 PM
The monsterous crab shows how poor the CR system is. Optimize or not, that things a bitch!

Tvtyrant
2010-12-28, 07:00 PM
You could just throw every aberration ever on the list of things that are way too strong for their CR. Seriously, all of them. Especially O-Chuuls!

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-12-28, 08:20 PM
That damn crab shows how poor the CR system is. Optimize or not, that things a bitch!

Fixed that for you.

Overall, I'd say CR's borked as anything other than a loose (at best) guideline. Know your PCs and what they're capable of, and you'll be better off than if you know their levels and pick monsters that way.

Jothki
2010-12-28, 09:27 PM
The monsterous crab shows how poor the CR system is. Optimize or not, that things a bitch!

I wouldn't consider a monster that can be completely negated by 8 gp or a first-level spell to be a challenge.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-12-28, 11:08 PM
I wouldn't consider a monster that can be completely negated by 8 gp or a first-level spell to be a challenge.

What 1st-level spell or 8 gp item can beat this damned crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)?

Jothki
2010-12-28, 11:38 PM
What 1st-level spell or 8 gp item can beat this damned crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)?

Oh, right, two claws. Two 1st-level spells or 16 gp.

Hyfigh
2010-12-28, 11:40 PM
Oh, right, two claws. Two 1st-level spells or 16 gp.

:smallconfused: OK, but you haven't sited which item and/or spells...

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-12-28, 11:49 PM
SRD has no spells that reliably counter this thing in any fashion whatsoever. I haven't checked any splat books, but off the top of my head, I can't think of any 1st-level spells that will stop this monstrosity. And I can't think of any items that will do it, either.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-29, 12:50 AM
Entangle would definitely help; some of the other control spells too. Its immune to the more useful ones though :(

Bang!
2010-12-29, 12:52 AM
Dress it up in a scarf and mittens?
Throw ink in its eyes?
Serenade it with a 10-member whistle choir?
Booze it up with 40 gallons of ale?
Make it battle a donkey?
Book it an 80 mile ride on a ship?
...I'm running out of 8gp options.

You could probably throw a sheep at it and run, though. It's mindless, after all.

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-29, 01:13 AM
Grease. Either yourself or the Crab.

Bang!
2010-12-29, 01:49 AM
So the Greased level 3 Rogue can survive the crab's first attack and escape 60% of its grapples? That's neat, I guess.

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-29, 02:03 AM
So the Greased level 3 Rogue can survive the crab's first attack and escape 60% of its grapples? That's neat, I guess.

You're forgetting that you can also force that damned crab to make Reflex Saves. Not its weakest save(Will being at +2, and Reflex +4), but still enough for a hope(not much, since you need it to roll 1-5 on the d20, so a 25% chance for it to slip and fall).

Edit: Actually, reading up on Balance suggests it's a 5% chance to slip and fall, with rolls 2-5(20%) making it unable to move for the round.

Bang!
2010-12-29, 02:12 AM
You're forgetting that you can also force that damned crab to make Reflex Saves. Not its weakest save(Will being at +2, and Reflex +4), but still enough for a hope(not much, since you need it to roll 1-5 on the d20, so a 25% chance for it to slip and fall).
Okay, that's a fair point. For some reason I was assuming a crab encounter would take place somewhere that Grease wouldn't make much sense (namely sand) instead of a rocky shore or cobble stoned aquarium-rim or something.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-29, 07:17 AM
Grease works fine on sand.

It's magic.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-12-29, 09:02 AM
We went through this argument in another thread where that damned crab came up. While grease is a spell, and therefore only fails if it is cast under conditions that specifically cause it fail, it was argued that it would not be fully unreasonable for a DM to veto it based on the fact that a crab, especially one as heavy as TDC, plants its feet inside the ground, rather than on it.

That said, while grease would help someone survive some of the grapples, it doesn't help enough, and it doesn't stop the claw damage. And it doesn't have enough of a chance of pinning TDC in place so it can be pincushioned. I don't know, the only idea I like is throwing a couple of sheep at it, so it eats those and lets the party escape.

Runestar
2010-12-29, 09:05 AM
So no one here has experiences fighting angels that would help determine how accurate their cr is? :smalltongue:

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-12-29, 09:27 AM
So no one here has experiences fighting angels that would help determine how accurate their cr is? :smalltongue:

Oh yeah, that's what this thread was about, wasn't it? Oops, sorry. Hmm...An angel could probably take out TDC.

JeminiZero
2010-12-29, 10:54 AM
Grease works fine on sand.

It's magic.

Actually, a better spell might be Silent or Minor Image. It's mindless so it isn't smart enough to know what an illusion is, and it also lacks any sort of blindsense. The trick then is to create an illusions that can hold its attention for long periods of time, get to a position of safety, and snipe it to death, since it doesn't have DR or fast healing.

The broken way would be Alter Self to gain flight and stay out of reach. The not-so-broken way would be 2 castings of Spider Climb (one for the shooter, and the other for the Wizard casting/concentrating on Silent Image) and camping on the top of tree/cliff face that is out of TDC reach.

So it would take: a wizard and one other party member, 2x level 2 spells, 1x level 1 spell, and whole bunch of ammunition (depending on ranged weapon of choice of other party member).

Jothki
2010-12-30, 11:12 PM
Mount.

Summoned mount in one claw, summoned mount in the other, crab retreats long enough for you to pass by. Or you can use donkeys.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-12-31, 12:41 AM
Okay, yeah, that seems to work. Assuming the party wizard has it prepared twice, the party sorcerer knows the spell, or the party happened to buy 2 spare donkeys. Of course, given the odds of that, I'd say it doesn't really hamper the crab's threat level, as it only works if you're well aware of the crab's presence.