(3.5) AC increasing feats.

[Goonthegoof]

I'm currently participating in a d&d 3.5 game with no magic whatsoever (no magic items or supernatural class features etc) and I'm trying to get my armour class as high as possible through non magical methods. I've found dodge, heavy armour optimisation, shield specialisation and the various armours from races of stone.

Does anyone know of any other non magical ways to increase armour class? (Shield wall and phalanx fighting won't work, I won't near any allies a significant chunk of the time)

[ericgrau]

Most of your attack bonus tends to come from class features while most of your AC tends to come from items. I'd say you're pretty hosed. Anything you find would have to be so cheesy that if anyone with items took it they'd have a ridiculous AC.... unless you take a feat that prohibits items. Vow of poverty may be what you're looking for, but that seems a bit cheesy in a campaign that doesn't allow magic items anyway.

If kept at low level and your enemy is on equal footing then a tower shield and/or combat expertise might help.

[gbprime]

Well then Devotion feats are out too, aren't they?

Combat Expertise is the first thing that comes to mind. And a Factotum's 3rd level ability to add INT bonus as a Dodge bonus a few times a fight. (Nice thing about that one, it's not magical and it works even in heavy armor.)

[AnswersQuestion]

You have shield, armor...and maybe a few feats, who together won't beat the armor's bonus alone.

Combat Expertise and a shield is what comes to mind. Tactical shield feats are rather irrelevant because they grant shield bonuses, if I recall correctly.
Ideally, in such a scenario, you want AC from your class level. Ask the dm to make up some ac progression to follow the AB or every character will not be able to fight more than once per week or two, if that.

[Drynwyn]

If their are dragons in your campaign, you coul use dragon blooded.

[ericgrau]

Ideally, in such a scenario, you want AC from your class level. Ask the dm to make up some ac progression to follow the AB or every character will not be able to fight more than once per week or two, if that.
The low magic item system in my sig has some options there. There are AC tables you could use for various classes. It's done with a point buy system but if you convert about 30-40% of WBL into points (1 per 1,000 gp) it gives a reasonable budget. Though casters and archers might not want to spend so much. You might also use the vow of poverty progression.

[Goonthegoof]

Thought of vow of poverty but the armour bonuses are supernatural :smallfrown:

[AnswersQuestion]

They are...

[Ernir]

Why do you want AC?

Anyway, getting AC through feats is inefficient, you usually use magic and class features for that. Since the nonmagical items are usually not hard to get once the game progresses a bit, the question becomes - what are your class features?


If their are dragons in your campaign, you coul use dragon blooded.

?
The Dragonblood subtype doesn't give an AC bonus.

Though it does remind me of something... Kobolds make pretty decent starting points for AC types. They get +3 AC for free compared to a human. +1 natural, +1 dex, +1 size.

The low magic item system in my sig has some options there. There are AC tables you could use for various classes. It's done with a point buy system but if you convert about 30-40% of WBL into points (1 per 1,000 gp) it gives a reasonable budget. Though casters and archers might not want to spend so much.

Good point on alternate systems...

You might want to sell your DM on some kind of defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) system. The system ericgrau presents sounds more appropriate, but this should show him/her that there is some precedent for making AC partially scale with levels.

[Goonthegoof]

Why do you want AC?

So I get hit by things less?


Anyway, getting AC through feats is inefficient, you usually use magic and class features for that. Since the nonmagical items are usually not hard to get once the game progresses a bit, the question becomes - what are your class features?


They're warblade. Currently level 2.

[Curmudgeon]

Alternative class features might help. The Swashbuckler Shield of Blades (Player's Handbook II, page 63) ACF is nice: Lose dodge bonus, gain shield bonus when fighting with two weapons starting at +2 and rising as you gain levels; you top out at +5 @ level 20.

[gbprime]

So I get hit by things less?

WEll that's just it. The BAB progression as you level up kind of assumes that armor class is going up as well. If magic items and effects are not available, then AC isn't going to be rising nearly as fast, and the monsters or NPC's will have little trouble hitting you despite your best efforts.

THis is why D20 modern and Star Wars and some other systems have added dodge bonuses as a function of levelling up. At high levels, the only person who has a good shot at hitting a gunslinger is another gunslinger. His dodge bonuses are too much for most other people.

[The_Admiral]

Vow Of Poverty?

[Eldariel]

Well, the only real way to get non-magical AC is through class levels. Feats just aren't efficient enough; the few feats with substantial bonuses are also circumstantial. The two real ways I can think of are:
- Con Stack with Fist of the Forests and Deepwarden with Con-bonus race and Con-stack on level-ups.
- Skirmish with Scout/Ranger + Expeditious Dodge + Elaborate Parry (Dervish).

Both can get relatively high AC. The next-best way is probably just replacing AC with other variables as per Wall of Blades, Baffling Defense and company. That is, active defense.

And quite possibly the best way is to have a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and some way to stop people from moving. Thicket of Blades (so they can't Tumble, Spring Attack, etc.) + Stand Still and/or Improved Trip. Really, the best way to not get hit is to not let opponents roll. Doesn't stop ranged attacks tho; need terrain for that.


But this is why I tend to run with increased stat bonuses and level-scaling Dodge-bonus to AC; the game as written relies way too heavily on magic for defense.

[drakir_nosslin]

They're warblade. Currently level 2.

Since you're a warblade, ready Wall of Blades when you can. Lvl 2 IH counter, replaces AC with attack roll.

[pilvento]

combat expertice + buckler defense + two weapon defense (base, improved, greater)

[gbprime]

Since you're a warblade, ready Wall of Blades when you can. Lvl 2 IH counter, replaces AC with attack roll.

Wall of Blades is great for later levels. But can a 2nd level warblade really consistently beat an AC22 with her attack roll?

[Magesmiley]

Depending on your race, titan fighting (RoS) might be effective. Gnomes in particular benefit from this one.

[Person_Man]

I'm currently participating in a d&d 3.5 game with no magic whatsoever (no magic items or supernatural class features etc) and I'm trying to get my armour class as high as possible through non magical methods. I've found dodge, heavy armour optimisation, shield specialisation and the various armours from races of stone.

Does anyone know of any other non magical ways to increase armour class? (Shield wall and phalanx fighting won't work, I won't near any allies a significant chunk of the time)

Guide to Shields (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630).

Also, Combat Panache offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty on one enemy's To-Hit rolls until the end of the encounter, essentially giving you Cha to AC against that enemy. PHBII pg 93.

My suggestion is to play a Crusader. They make great tanks, and manuevers and stances are extraordinary abilities.

[gorfnab]

Here is a guide that may help you out if you decide to go the Combat Expertise route: A short guide to defensive fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178445)

[Cadian 9th]

A lesser Wispling Monk with the Carmendine Monk feat can get a very high AC for lower levels. After that, you could move into expeditous dodge and as the above posters said, Combat Expertise. Factotum 3 after monk would let you add int to Hide checks (As well as Move silently checks).

If you can get the Dark Creature template from ToM, you'll be laughing. Your AC will be very high, and your hide modifier will be high, and you have extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight. If your DM is staying true to the restrictions on players with the monsters, they'll never be able to detect you. This also goes for if you're not allowed Dark - going small, high dex, high Hide check will get you very far, due to the lack of detection spells and magic items/abilites boosting awareness. Darkstalker will cement that advantage.

[Goonthegoof]

Here is a guide that may help you out if you decide to go the Combat Expertise route: A short guide to defensive fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178445)

This one's really useful, thank you.

[Greenish]

combat expertice + buckler defense + two weapon defense (base, improved, greater)Two-weapon Defense grants shield bonus, which doesn't stack with a buckler.