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mootoall
2010-12-28, 01:51 PM
Does the BAB of creatures (in this case I'm referring specifically to Elementals) follow the same pattern for Epic levels as characters? I.E. BAB would be 3/4 HD for 20 levels, and then continue as the standard epic progression?

gbprime
2010-12-28, 02:17 PM
Apparently not. The few examples by SRD of monsters with over 20 HD (Solar, Tarrasque) all have BAB = HD, which is normal for Outsider and Magical Beast progression. And elementals going from 21 HD to 24 HD gain 3 BAB.

Even the example of the 14 HD Frost Giant with 8 levels of Blackguard still gets full BAB from the PrC, despite it's ECL of 26.

Croverus
2010-12-28, 02:21 PM
Go to the d20 SRD and look up epic monsters. They have some epic elementals listed. That should answer your question after you do a little math.

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 02:27 PM
Nope, they progress like nonepic monsters, even if they're in the ELH. For example, the Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)has +25 BAB, not +20 BAB and a +3 epic attack bonus.

mootoall
2010-12-28, 02:56 PM
Hmm, and I assume that's the same for saves? Very interesting ... so monsters actually advance faster in epic than classes. Huh. Who'da thunk it?

Glimbur
2010-12-28, 03:17 PM
All of the wonky Epic Attack Bonus and Epic Save Bonus and such only apply to characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm). This is a bit strange in a system where monsters and PC's normally use the same rules, but... it's Epic.

gbprime
2010-12-28, 04:18 PM
Hmm, and I assume that's the same for saves? Very interesting ... so monsters actually advance faster in epic than classes. Huh. Who'da thunk it?

Hey, there had to be SOME advantage to not being a cleric or a warblade. (Or a cleric/warblade.) Looks like we've finally found it. :smallbiggrin:

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-28, 05:12 PM
To add to what Glimbur said, the Epic rules for attacks and saves don't apply to racial HD. If you had, say an elemental with 20 elemental HD and then 2 levels of Fighter, you'd use the epic rules on attacks/saves for those fighter levels, but non-epic progressions fore more elemental HD, assuming the fighter levels came after the 20 levels of elemental.

So, yeah, epic is wonky.

Otodetu
2010-12-28, 05:22 PM
To add to what Glimbur said, the Epic rules for attacks and saves don't apply to racial HD. If you had, say an elemental with 20 elemental HD and then 2 levels of Fighter, you'd use the epic rules on attacks/saves for those fighter levels, but non-epic progressions fore more elemental HD, assuming the fighter levels came after the 20 levels of elemental.

So, yeah, epic is wonky.

This seem to err if you look at the frost giant jarl, unless prestige classes are treated different.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-28, 05:25 PM
This seem to err if you look at the frost giant jarl, unless prestige classes are treated different.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm

Considering how epic prestige classes lack BAB/Saves lines, I'd say that's probably an issue of that monster being a hold over from 3.0 pre-ELH.

Runestar
2010-12-28, 06:52 PM
As pointed out, racial HD alone never triggers epic bab or saves. So a creature with 70 outsider HD would have +70 bab. :smallamused:

mootoall
2010-12-28, 06:53 PM
As pointed out, racial HD alone never triggers epic bab or saves. So a creature with 70 outsider HD would have +70 bab. :smallamused:

Would that be a way to get more than four iteratives? :smallbiggrin:

Volthawk
2010-12-28, 06:57 PM
Would that be a way to get more than four iteratives? :smallbiggrin:

Nope, seems to still be limited at 4. The Elder Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm)has +70 BAB, but only 4 iteratives.