Point Buy for Tier System

[wayfare]

So, I've been creating tier 3 versions of classes for an upcoming game I hope to run, when I stumbled across this idea in mine head:

Players roll their stats normally. At creation, players also receive 12 Character Modification Points (CMPs). Using these points, the players purchase the Maximum Tier they can access during play:

The tiers would cost:

Tier 1: 12 points (all your build points)
Tier 2: 10 Points
Tier 3: 8 Points
Tier 4: 5 points
Tier 5: 2 Points
Tier 6: Free

So, a character who spends all 12 points can access classes of any tiers: He could play Cleric 10; Wizard 7/Rogue 3; Druid 9/Barbarian 2/Monk 1.

If the character only spends 8 points, he can access classes up to Tier 3. That player could go Beguiler 10; Beguiler 6/Rogue 4; Beguiler 2/Spellthief 2/Expert 2/CW Samurai 2/Fighter 2 -- all of these classes are at or below tier 3, and are viable options.
A character who spends 8 CMPs could not take: Beguiler 7/Favored Soul 3 or Wizard 5/Factotum 5-- Favored Soul and Wizard are Tier 2 and 1 respectively, so the character cannot access these classes.

Your remaining CMPs (if you have any) can be used to modify your character in a variety of ways.

1 CMP adds 1 to an attribute
1 CMP grants 1 feat
2 CMPs buys off 1 point of Racial Level Adjustment
1 CMP grants (Level x 500) gp worth of equipment
1 CMP adds 1 spell level to the characters spell list (if it is a spellcasting class). These need not belong to the characters spell list (a beguiler could add fireball to his list at the cost of 3 points

Using the above example, a character with access to Tier 3 classes has 4 CMPs to modify his character.
He could
1) Add 4 points to an attribute
2) Add 2 points to an attribute and purchase 2 feats
3) Add 4 level 1 spells to the list or 2 level 2 spells to his list.

[Emperor Ing]

Are you sure this doesn't encourage minmaxing? I mean, most tier 1 and 2 classes are the epitome of SAD classes.

[Bang!]

So Wizards are like Commoners, but dumber? Awesome.

EDIT: assuming starting ability scores are <11.

[sonofzeal]

Yeah, this hurts Tier 3 more than it hurts Tier 1. Tier 1 is generally SAD enough that low pointbuy doesn't hurt it as much, as long as it can get one or two good scores.



Better, imo:

Tier 1 starts at 6
Tier 2 starts at 7
Tier 3 starts at 8 (standard)
Tier 4 starts at 9
Tier 5 starts at 10
Tier 6 starts at 10

This not only lowers the average of Tier 1, it also lowers the maximum. Wizards can't start with an Int over 16, but a Swashbuckler could start with a Dex of 20. Useful.



...I have no idea where you're getting your 12-pb system from, though.

[wayfare]

Oops...to clarify...

This point buy would only be for the tiers. If you use point buy for stats, that would be a seperate thing. My group rolls for stats, hence the confusion.

[Cicciograna]

How would multiclassing work?

[Private-Prinny]

How would multiclassing work?

There's actually a line for that, but it's hidden.


So, a character who spent 5 build points could take any classes at or below tier 4 -- take a level in spell thief, take a level in samurai, take a level in rogue...but the character could never take a level of psion or mage.

[Ranger Mattos]

There's actually a line for that, but it's hidden.

Hidden?


So, I've been creating tier 3 versions of classes for an upcoming game I hope to run, when I stumbled across this idea in mine head:

How about a point buy for the tiers. You can buy access to a tier of classes with character build points, and you can only take classes with tiers at or below this level.

The tiers would cost:

Tier 1: 12 points (all your build points)
Tier 2: 10 Points
Tier 3: 8 Points
Tier 4: 5 points
Tier 5: 2 Points
Tier 6: Free

Your remaining build points could be spent to increase your characters stats (1 point a piece), purchase feats (also 1 point a piece), start with better equipment (1 point = 1000 gp), cancel out race level modifiers.

So, a character who spent 5 build points could take any classes at or below tier 4 -- take a level in spell thief, take a level in samurai, take a level in rogue...but the character could never take a level of psion or mage. With his remaining 7 build points, that same character could bump his Dex 4 points and begin play with an additional 3000 gp worth of equipment.


Thoughts?

It's the second paragraph.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, this hurts Tier 3 more than it hurts Tier 1. Tier 1 is generally SAD enough that low pointbuy doesn't hurt it as much, as long as it can get one or two good scores.



I'm not sure it does. Consider a strong tier 3 (Factotum, Warblade, Beguiler, DN) with 4 free feats at level 1 (b/c op says that feats are 1 build point each). I think that with proper planning that could be incredibly powerful.

Or buying off race level modifiers? Suddenly things like Gravetouched Ghoul Dread Necro become solid options very worth considering.

[wayfare]

I think the only really big issue come sfrom PrC's, but I'm not really opposed to that -- They only tend to shift you up one tier (or down one), and you have to meet some serious reqs to get in...

[Qwertystop]

Feats should maybe be 1.5 or 2 build points. By race level, you mean LA right? We need a price for that.

[wayfare]

Feats should maybe be 1.5 or 2 build points. By race level, you mean LA right? We need a price for that.

I'm up for suggestions.

Maybe 2 points per 1 LA?

Anything ideas as to other features players could spend point buy on?

[Tvtyrant]

Well there is always equipment :P

[ericgrau]

So wizards can't start over 16 but they can still advance their stats fast enough to get high level spells no problem, even with an int of 14 or maybe lower. First off, if you used roll stats instead of point buy they are unlikely to get an 18 anyway. So at best you are bringing them back down to normal before point buy favored SAD classes. Second, if they have a lower con and so on you're polarizing encounters more as they either kill fast or get killed fast, which only increases "rocket tag".

It basically comes down to "tiers" are not a measure of power, only versatility.

[Lans]

Could a character save points till later?

Such as a paladin saving a pair of points to get battle blessing and sword of the arcane order at 4th level

[Lateral]

So wizards can't start over 16

Why not? The OP said in a later post that this was separate from stat-generation.

[wayfare]

So wizards can't start over 16 but they can still advance their stats fast enough to get high level spells no problem, even with an int of 14 or maybe lower. First off, if you used roll stats instead of point buy they are unlikely to get an 18 anyway. So at best you are bringing them back down to normal before point buy favored SAD classes. Second, if they have a lower con and so on you're polarizing encounters more as they either kill fast or get killed fast, which only increases "rocket tag".

It basically comes down to "tiers" are not a measure of power, only versatility.

I'm not certain what you are saying...

My party uses the 4d6 (drop the lowest) method of rolling, and we frequently have 18s. If you don't get a score above 16, I spot you one...

So a wizard could start play with an 18. If he was of a race that give you +2 Int, he could begin play with a 20 Int.

However, that same player could play a rogue with 20 Dex (5 build points for a tier 4 character), and sink all of his remaining Build Points into Dex, giving him a Whopping 27 Dex to start at level 1.

Does this completly solve the tier system -- no. But it gives player who want to play lower tier character more options. And access to more options is what makes higher tier classes.

[wayfare]

After a bit of fine-tuning, here is what I've come up with:

Attribute Points Cost 1 build point
Racial Level Adjustments Cost 2 build points to reduce the LA by 1
Feats cost 1 point
1 build point translated to 1000 gp of equipment
1 build point will grant you 500 gold
1 build point grants you 3 skill points (normal level limits apply)
3 build points grants you training in an untrained skill

Any thoughts?

[Gnaritas]

After a bit of fine-tuning, here is what I've come up with:

Attribute Points Cost 1 build point
Racial Level Adjustments Cost 2 build points to reduce the LA by 1
Feats cost 1 point
1 build point translated to 1000 gp of equipment
1 build point will grant you 500 gold
1 build point grants you 3 skill points (normal level limits apply)
3 build points grants you training in an untrained skill

Any thoughts?

GP should be adjusted for the level players start out in.
At level 1 5.000 gp is a lot.
At level 15 5.000 gp is nothing.

A feat can be 3 skill points (not limited by level limits) and so the 3 skill points will never be chosen. Make it 5.

I am not sure what the last one is....but it must be ****ing awesome to count as 3 feats.

[Curmudgeon]

Your remaining build points could be spent to increase your characters stats (1 point a piece), purchase feats (also 1 point a piece), start with better equipment (1 point = 1000 gp), cancel out race level modifiers.
...
Thoughts?
In addition to hurting MAD character classes more than the SAD top classes, this would never work well without point buy for stats also. It's trivially easy to fudge dice enough to come up with a single 18, which is all a Druid or Wizard character needs.

Here's my suggestion (and please note these are the standard points used to buy stats, as per DMG page 169):

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
Just forget it.
This assumes you're going to start in your primary class. If you change the primary class in later levels you'd retroactively lose points if necessary, but would never retroactively gain points.

There's nothing wrong with adding your point system on top of this, after a little debugging.

[Eldrys]

I assume he meant adding a skill to your class skill list, but that's still incredibly overpriced considering there are several feats that basically do that.

I would say 2 points for a feat and 2 points for making a skill a class skill.

[sonofzeal]

Your exchange rate is off.

1 feat = 5 skillpoints ("Open-Minded")
1 feat = make a skill into a class skill ("Martial Study", "Education"), and there's almost always some other benefit on top of that.

Also, I'd limit how many build points can be spent in any one category. Cutting LA +4 down to 0 is "only" 8 points, but is likely to give you huge benefit. And there are a few feats that can be taken repeatedly for stacking benefit ("Roll With It" comes to mind; my Henry the Indestructible build would love this variant). Finally, I can just picture someone rolling a Druid19/Monk1 and dumping every single point into Wis, or just going straight Wiz with an Int score that'd make a Black Ethergaunt jealous.

It's a good idea, but only if each of those areas is capped.

[Eldrys]

Finally, I can just picture someone rolling a Druid19/Monk1 and dumping every single point into Wis.



There's already the clause stating that you would have to stay in your tier while multi-classing

Also, free LA for 2 points seems incredibly overpowered to me. I'd change it to at least 5(the cost of a tier 4 class)

[molten_dragon]

After a bit of fine-tuning, here is what I've come up with:

Attribute Points Cost 1 build point
Racial Level Adjustments Cost 2 build points to reduce the LA by 1
Feats cost 1 point
1 build point translated to 1000 gp of equipment
1 build point will grant you 500 gold
1 build point grants you 3 skill points (normal level limits apply)
3 build points grants you training in an untrained skill

Any thoughts?

Okay, some thoughts.

Attribute points: Probably fine as it is. Low-tier classes tend to be MAD, so that'll help. A fighter with a 28 STR at level 1 could be an issue for balance reasons though.

LA buyoff: The cost either needs to be increased greatly or there needs to be a limit to how much LA you can buy off that way. The way you have it set up now, a monk or fighter could play a +5 LA race for free. That may be balanced at level 20, but at level 1 it's going to make it nearly impossible for you to balance encounters for the party.

Feats: Probably alright. You might want to increase it to 2 points per feat though. A fighter with 10 extra feats at level 1 is going to be pretty damn dangerous.

Equipment: This is another one that doesn't work well across all levels. If everyone starts at level 1, then an extra 10k gp for low-tier classes is pretty amazing. At level 10 when WBL is like 50,000 gp, it's not nearly as great. At level 20 when WBL is 750,000 gp, it's a drop in the bucket. I purposely didn't mention the actual gold piece option, because no one will ever take it (under no circumstance is it a better choice than getting items)

Skill points: Weaker than the other options. I'd make it 5 skill points and allow it to go over the normal limits, otherwise this is a much less attractive option than spending it on a feat and just taking skill focus.

Unlocking an untrained skill: This is incredibly overpriced. It is nowhere near as powerful as gaining an extra feat, and costs 3 times as much. This should cost 1 build point at most. You might even want to consider making it so 1 build point unlocks 2 untrained skills.

Overall, it's a pretty decent idea, but it could use some refining. Here's my suggestions

Spread the build points out. Give 1 (or maybe 2) build points per level rather than giving them all at first level. Allow people to save them to be used later if they want. This will keep you from having to deal with things like a half-minotaur lolth-touched mineral warrior goliath fighter at level 1.

Change the equipment option so that it gives out 1000gp*ECL per build point spent. This way it's still worth taking at higher levels. Remove the GP option.

Change the skill point option so that it gives 5 skill points and allows you to go over the normal limits.

Change the untrained skill option so that 1 build point permanently adds 2 skills to your list of class skills.

There are only 2 issues I can see after those changes.

1. If you only allow 1 build point per level, then the LA buyoff isn't an option if they start at level 1. You could fix this by essentially making a monster class of whatever they wanted and allowing them to buy it over time.
2. It adds power to all classes below tier 1, introducing some power creep into the game. You may be fine with this.

[Mastikator]

How about this one.
Your tire -1 = the LA and/or racial hitdie ignored from your race.
The leftover LA ignored x4 is added to your point buy. So if a human wizard starts with 28 points to spend, a human sorceror will have 32, and a human fighter will have 40.
And Spell to Power Erudite therefore counts as one LA higher.

[wayfare]

Thanks for the suggestions!

@Sonofzeal (Magus reference, yes?): Thanks for correcting the exchange rate. I think my two options at this point are

1) Eliminate the skill access/skill point sections entirely
2) Keep them, lower the cost.

Should feats cost 2 build points?

@Eldar: To clarify your point, you could go Druid 19/Monk 1 -- if you paid 12 points at creation. Of course, you wouldn't have any build points left to use to buff your Wisdom, so only the standard benefit from wisdom cheese.

@MoltenDragon: Thanks for the help -- your criticism is spot on! I was thinking of capping purchases at 6 points. So you could buy off 3 LA, Buy 6 attributes, etc. I'm a bit hesitant to include this as a general rule yet, at least until i get some feedback -- afterall, its up to the GM to say no to races that are gamebusting.

I think I'll go with your suggestion for the equipment section as well.

[Kurald Galain]

A simple addition would be that "each option can be used no more than three times". This prevents e.g. a character from getting $10000 in equipment, or ten feats at level one.

[Gnaeus]

Feats should probably be 2 build points.

LA should be at least 2 each, probably more. Consider...
For 6 points
A fighter could take +6 strength.

or

A fighter could take a 3 LA template like Half Dragon, which gives
Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, Natural Armor +4, Breath Weapon, Energy Immunity, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Immunity to paralysis and sleep, and a claw/claw/bite attack routine.

And half-dragon is not one of the strongest templates you can take for your LA.

[JaronK]

The biggest issue I see with this general concept is that it prevents players from ever multiclassing across tiers... or at least makes it hard. What if I want to play a Martial Rogue 2/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Warblade 10? What's my point buy then? If I want to be a Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Unarmed Swordsage 9, what's my point buy?

JaronK

[Kesnit]

The biggest issue I see with this general concept is that it prevents players from ever multiclassing across tiers... or at least makes it hard. What if I want to play a Martial Rogue 2/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Warblade 10? What's my point buy then? If I want to be a Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Unarmed Swordsage 9, what's my point buy?

JaronK


It's based on your highest tier. I think those cap out at Tier 3 classes, so you buy "Tier 3." You can then multi-class anything Tier 3 or below.

[wayfare]

The biggest issue I see with this general concept is that it prevents players from ever multiclassing across tiers... or at least makes it hard. What if I want to play a Martial Rogue 2/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Warblade 10? What's my point buy then? If I want to be a Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Unarmed Swordsage 9, what's my point buy?

JaronK

It does take some build-planning beforehand, as the number of build points you expend effectively limits your options later in game.

So, for maximum flexibility, you would drop all 12 points to purcahse tier 1 classes, and recieve no other mechanical benefit -- aside from the ability to take any class in the game as part of your build.

Restricting yourself to tier 5 or 6 limits your options to an insane degree, but at that point you are talking about a CW Sam who begins play with all his class features, plus a great strength bonus and a huge number of feats.

As I mention near the top, PrC's are a bit of an issue, but I'm not terribly worried about them, as they do give players some way to hop tiers if they really want it.

[wayfare]

Modified the original post.

Added the option to add spells to characters spell list.
Should this include spells from other casting classes???

Modified gold earned with build points.

Any further thoughts?