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WarKitty
2010-12-28, 04:52 PM
I enjoy the controller style of play. But I find it frustrating playing a Tier 1 class when my friends are playing Tier 4s. You sort of have to end up with an idiot ball in order to not overpower them. And honestly it's kind of hard to do effective control without ending the encounters.

So what class would you play that can fill the controller role without making others useless or mostly useless?

Zergrusheddie
2010-12-28, 04:56 PM
Beguilers are Tier 3 and make extremely effective controllers. They get access to Charm/Dominate, Blinds, Glitterdusts, and Confusion. All those spells are still capable of turning encounters into cakewalks but you won't be bending the campaign over your knee like an optimized Wizard would. Of course, Blind enemies are less dangerous but are not dead. Turn the enemies into weenies and let the Fighters mop up.

For a melee controller, a Horizon Tripper is awesome, as is a Psychic Warrior.

Amphetryon
2010-12-28, 04:58 PM
A Warlock can choose powers that work along a controller/debuffer theme relatively easily.

A Binder can sort of fill that role, though the best vestiges for this purpose nudge Binders perilously close to Tier 2.

Dread Necromancers can make decent controller/debuffer types, though the plethora of Undead they can control at one time can make teammates grumpy if they complain about the length of your Druid's turns presently.

Ernir
2010-12-28, 05:02 PM
Do trippers and fear builds sound interesting?

Assuming 3.5, you're using tiers, a 3E term, and "controllers", which I believe is primarily a 4E term...

InaVegt
2010-12-28, 05:09 PM
Do also take a look at the spirit shaman. Sure, it's the druid's spell list, but it's by far inferior to the druid.

Note that the druid spell list contains loads of controller-y spells, including at low level. It's much more of a suitable list than the cleric's.

Bang!
2010-12-28, 05:10 PM
Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Exhalation is probably the easiest to put together.

You might want to review the Warmage spell list. It has more control powers than are generally acknowledged.

Beguiler has its area-of-effect enchantments and the Image spells, all of which can work for control.

A Bard or Mystic Ranger with a modified (via substitution) or expanded (via PrC) spell list could work without being overwhelming.

EDIT: Probably Dread Necromancer too, but I've never played one and don't really know what they have on their spells list. If they have things like Fear and the various rays, they could probably work. And their zombie schtick probably wouldn't hurt.

Lans
2010-12-28, 05:10 PM
Shadow caster is a decent tier 4 option if your at least level 7

WarKitty
2010-12-28, 05:10 PM
Beguilers are Tier 3 and make extremely effective controllers. They get access to Charm/Dominate, Blinds, Glitterdusts, and Confusion. All those spells are still capable of turning encounters into cakewalks but you won't be bending the campaign over your knee like an optimized Wizard would. Of course, Blind enemies are less dangerous but are not dead. Turn the enemies into weenies and let the Fighters mop up.

For a melee controller, a Horizon Tripper is awesome, as is a Psychic Warrior.

Magic controller, thanks. Currently playing a druid - I love the AoE's like sleet storm, briar web, etc. But I admit that I'm playing with some Tier 4's, and it's difficult at times for them, and for me in turn to consider them.

Edit: 3.PF, generally. And battlefield control is a non-official term in 3E for a playstyle. Generally for me it involves a lot of AoE's, particularly those that entangle or create dangerous terrain, and walls of different sorts.

Edit 2: Druid is what we're having trouble with now being too overpowered.

Draz74
2010-12-28, 05:18 PM
Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Exhalation is probably the easiest to put together.

How did this not get mentioned until Post #6?

Dragonfire Adept is exactly what you're looking for. Easy to play, easy to balance, fun, and extremely Controller-focused. And available for free online (you just have to extrapolate the details of a couple of its Invocations).

IMO it's the best-designed full-"caster" class in the game (edging out the Psion and Ardent).

AshDesert
2010-12-28, 05:24 PM
I'm partial to trippers myself. Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (or Wolf Totem Barbarian if your DM is really nice) and a Guisarme are all you really need. If your a Fighter and don't mind stupid weapons, Spiked Chains are nice, but unnecessary (and really, REALLY stupid). The best Tripper is either Psychic Warrior (built in, better Enlarge Person being the main draw, along with so many other great combat powers) or the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415).

Non-melee, Warlocks can be okay at controlling with the right invocations, and Beguiler has several of the good control-y spells. Dread Necromancer can severely cripple enemies if you choose the right spells, and also have minions to clog up the battlefield and essentially act as walls if used well (distracting and dividing the enemies so that the BSF and Glass Cannon can focus fire without dying).

Kylarra
2010-12-28, 05:58 PM
thirding DFA with entangling exhalation.

Grendus
2010-12-28, 06:15 PM
Do also take a look at the spirit shaman. Sure, it's the druid's spell list, but it's by far inferior to the druid.

Note that the druid spell list contains loads of controller-y spells, including at low level. It's much more of a suitable list than the cleric's.

Spirit shaman is still somewhere around T1-T2. It's much weaker than the druid - no spontaneous summons without a feat, no wildshape, spirit animal is much weaker than animal companion - bit it still has dynamic access to a T1 spell list and 9th level casting with full progression. Fun class though, and much less problematic than playing a druid in T4 land.

A Crusader with a spiked chain and Thicket of Blades stance is a great tripper. If you can get LA buyoff (or even if you can't) a half-giant psionic warrior with a spiked chain is equally awesome - it's treated as one size category larger and can increase it's size by one additional category with a first level power. Between being considered huge for the opposed strength check and your own naturally high strength, the odds of anything getting past you without tiptoeing one 5 foot step at a time are very low. 3/4 BAB though, but it's solid T3.

WarKitty
2010-12-28, 06:17 PM
No melee please. I want to be a caster.

MammonAzrael
2010-12-28, 06:19 PM
How much of a caster? Because a Dragonfire Adept sounds nearly perfect if you're ok with Invocations.

WarKitty
2010-12-28, 06:24 PM
How much of a caster? Because a Dragonfire Adept sounds nearly perfect if you're ok with Invocations.

Not familiar with invocations personally - I've looked at them but I'm not sure how they'd play out. My DM's are pretty ok with refluffing though, so if I came out with someone that casts line spells from his finger that just happened to work the same way as the Adept's breath attack, no one would care.

JaronK
2010-12-28, 06:24 PM
Beguilers are great for this, and Glitterdust is an amazing support spell that lets other players feel like the star of the show. Dread Necromancers can be quite decent at this as well, with Evard's Tentacles combined with undead to clutter up the battlefield a bit.

JaronK

Grendus
2010-12-28, 06:25 PM
In that case, I think DFA or Spirit Shaman is what you're looking for. Just choose your spells per day for the Spirit Shaman (they get lots per day, but can choose at most 3 from each level - sort of a hybrid sorcerer/druid casting) with control and buffing in mind, and try to avoid summoning too much if they are already complaining about turn length.

mucco
2010-12-28, 06:30 PM
Caster which specializes in BC and is at most Tier 3? Yeesh.

If DFA isn't enough of a caster for you, try Dread Necro, really. They have a so-so spell list with useful controls like summons, tentacles, waves of x, and others. Plus there's a crapload of fear effects which are awesome debuff/controls.

And hordes of minions make for awesome control...

Probably watch out for good domains/spells to add to your list (both domains from Frostburn are great for that, while not being overly strong).

But yeah, DFA is a safe bet. Entangling Exhalation + Slow Breath + Solid Fog at will is awesome.

Draz74
2010-12-28, 06:42 PM
Not familiar with invocations personally - I've looked at them but I'm not sure how they'd play out. My DM's are pretty ok with refluffing though, so if I came out with someone that casts line spells from his finger that just happened to work the same way as the Adept's breath attack, no one would care.

That's exactly how "sorcerers" worked in the campaign I DM'ed last summer. Refluffing DFA's is easy.

Lateral
2010-12-28, 07:08 PM
I'm seventh-ing (I think) DFA. They rock.

MammonAzrael
2010-12-28, 07:35 PM
Not familiar with invocations personally - I've looked at them but I'm not sure how they'd play out. My DM's are pretty ok with refluffing though, so if I came out with someone that casts line spells from his finger that just happened to work the same way as the Adept's breath attack, no one would care.

Basically you'll have a very limited selection of spells, all of which you can cast At-Will. These are in addition to your At-Will breath weapon (that you can make entangling and other effects for suburb BFC). And since you're fine with refluffing, it doesn't need to literally be you breathing or anything like that. :smallsmile:

Check out both the class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) and the Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!) for more.