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Enterti
2010-12-28, 06:30 PM
Hello again Playground Dwellers!

Today I come to you asking for assistance in compiling a list of the most foul spells a party can have thrown at them. I speak not of spells such as enervate(without metamagic) or the orb line, but of spells with a more permanent and crippling nature. Spells that will make a character useless for the duration of the campaign, or even outright slay the entire party.

As posts are added I will update the list whenever I get the chance. Upon completion I will organize by caster type and spell level
For starters
Wail of the Banshee
Disjunction
Wish/Miracle
Power Word:Pain/kill
Holy Word(and friends)
Energy Drain
Trap the Soul
Eternity of Torture
Saintify the Wicked
Streamers
Forcecage
Maze
Bestow Curse(against low level parties)
Mindrape

Koury
2010-12-28, 06:31 PM
Disjunction?

GhoulPolitician
2010-12-28, 06:38 PM
creative uses of wish or miracle?

TroubleBrewing
2010-12-28, 06:39 PM
Not really on-topic, but a deck of many things?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-12-28, 06:40 PM
Can't think of anything deserving a capital NEVER except Disjunction. And even that's only a capital NEVER, not a capital bold NEVER.

BridgeCity
2010-12-28, 06:40 PM
Disjunction?

I agree with disjuntion being a spell that shouldn't be used. Whether you like it or not, D&D (3.5 at least) is very gear orientated, and players spend a hell of a lot of time getting exactly what they want. Just erasing that hard work with a spell is over the top and fun ruining. Tone it down to a suppression and it's fine, but out-right destroying magic items is just stupid.

Grendus
2010-12-28, 06:43 PM
Disjunction is fine, so long as you're prepared to overwhelm them with loot back up to their WBL. For example, against the BBEG (it's doubly fun if an artifact in their possession strips the BBEG of his magic). But then, I guess that's why it's only a capital NEVER instead of NEVER. And he better have a damn good treasure hoard, with lots of gear oriented specifically for the players. Or else that should be the final battle before you reroll for the next campaign.

Draz74
2010-12-28, 07:00 PM
Power Word: Pain is the other one that comes to mind, besides Disjunction.

Oh yeah, and Streamers. Streamers really ... wow, yeah.

Ailurus
2010-12-28, 07:03 PM
Holy Word (and dictum, blasphemy, word of chaos). They won't have long-term effects if the party survives. But, if the party is of the correct alignment, its pretty much a TPK.

Multiple no-save, area effect Save or lose/save or sucks piled on your party when you run into a hostile cleric one level higher than you is never conducive to survival.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-28, 07:04 PM
Power Word:Kill does wonders for killing wizards. Seriously, if your party contains squish do not use it against them.

Actually, most SoDs are particularly effective against wizards. Poor squish bags and their cosmic power.

Lateral
2010-12-28, 07:05 PM
Trap the Soul and Energy Drain are the big ones I can think of.

Slightly off-topic: Never, EVER throw Allips against your PCs- no-save Wisdom drain is BAD THING. Also, crystal golems are pretty much invincible to most uses of magic in a campaign with psionics-magic transparency. Don't throw them at your PCs unless you really want the wizard, the psion, and the cleric to cry.

Enterti
2010-12-28, 07:07 PM
creative uses of wish or miracle?

I am not sure that Wish and Miracle are spells for NPCs so much as ways for DMs to impose fiat without feeling bad, nonetheless it will be added

Ernir
2010-12-28, 07:09 PM
As posts are added I will update the list whenever I get the chance. Upon completion I will organize by caster type and spell level
For starters
Feeblemind
Wail of the Banshee
Feeblemind? That's just another save or lose.

Wail of the Banshee is a mass 9th-level Fort SoD with the [Death] descriptor. It might pop a party member or two in an unprepared party, but... that's what 9th level spells do.

Disjunction
We'll be seeing this one a lot in this thread, I think...

And I happen to disagree.

Disjunction is an unusually annoying spell, due to the bookkeeping potentially involved. But it's also about the only thing you can do to counter strong buffstacks and a few high level "just no" defenses (I'm looking at you, Prismatic Sphere).

Yes, it kills magic items. That's too bad. It also offers a will save, and carried magic items use the owner's will save if it's better than the item's own. And when you're going up against someone with 9th level spells, you did have a will save better than that of your shiny shoes, right? It's not an auto-nuke. It should be more like a 20%ish reduction of your wealth, which... is probably a fate worse than death, but I don't think that's saying an awful lot in high level D&D.

DMs who are worried about pissing off their players might want to cast it from a scroll, though - that way, it has a DC the items (a.k.a. the PCs) shouldn't be failing but on a 1.
Or you can make the next pile'o loot that much bigger.

Both are potentially verisimilitude-breakers, but I'd say the issue is an OOC issue anyway.

BridgeCity
2010-12-28, 07:16 PM
Feeblemind? That's just another save or lose.

Wail of the Banshee is a mass 9th-level Fort SoD with the [Death] descriptor. It might pop a party member or two in an unprepared party, but... that's what 9th level spells do.

We'll be seeing this one a lot in this thread, I think...

And I happen to disagree.

Disjunction is an unusually annoying spell, due to the bookkeeping potentially involved. But it's also about the only thing you can do to counter strong buffstacks and a few high level "just no" defenses (I'm looking at you, Prismatic Sphere).

Yes, it kills magic items. That's too bad. It also offers a will save, and carried magic items use the owner's will save if it's better than the item's own. And when you're going up against someone with 9th level spells, you did have a will save better than that of your shiny shoes, right? It's not an auto-nuke. It should be more like a 20%ish reduction of your wealth, which... is probably a fate worse than death, but I don't think that's saying an awful lot in high level D&D.

DMs who are worried about pissing off their players might want to cast it from a scroll, though - that way, it has a DC the items (a.k.a. the PCs) shouldn't be failing but on a 1.
Or you can make the next pile'o loot that much bigger.

Both are potentially verisimilitude-breakers, but I'd say the issue is an OOC issue anyway.

I'd counter this by saying the people most likely to suffer from disjunction removing their magical items would be melee based characters, because they have no spells or whatever to fall back on, and most melee centric characters do not have a great will save. So the people who would be affected most are the people most likely to be affected. It really is a harsh spell that can destroy the Fighters +8 Sword of awesomeness just because the fighter has a wis score of 10 and will as a bad save.

JaronK
2010-12-28, 07:25 PM
I'm confused by the fortitude partial part of that. What happens to you if you pass the save? It sounds like nothing, but that wouldn't be "partial."

Anyway, I think Power Word Pain is one of the nastiest spells you can hit them with. At low levels, it's a death sentence, but a slow one...

JaronK

Enterti
2010-12-28, 07:26 PM
Power Word: Pain is the other one that comes to mind, besides Disjunction.

Oh yeah, and Streamers. Streamers really ... wow, yeah.

What exactly is Streamers? I have not heard of the spell

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 07:26 PM
^: It's the spell from Shining South that doesn't let you take an action without being hit by a large number of d6s per action and having to save versus not being able to complete the action anyway.

If I'm remembering correctly, ayway.
Both are potentially verisimilitude-breakers, but I'd say the issue is an OOC issue anyway.

So? :smallconfused: Most spells that are worth complaining about are for OOC issues. Being annoyed at a spell's ability to cause repeated TPKs is an OOC issue because the relevant characters are all dead.

Hzurr
2010-12-28, 07:30 PM
I've actually used disjuntion once as a DM, and it turned out pretty well. To be fair, the party was attacking a lvl 18 wizard in his layer, and he knew they were coming and knew they had some ridiculously powerful items.

Full Story below:
The Party was tracking down the wizard, after eliminating his allies. One of the PCs had died, but was raised back as an intelligent undead by the party Cleric (this was an evil party). Because he was undead, he picked up the lifedrinker (or souldrinker) weapon, and was completely destroying things via level draining them.

The wizard they were fighting knew about the weapon, and also knew that the party had an ogre artificer that had built awesome effigies (or whatever they're called), so between the magical constructs the wizard knew were coming for him, and a weapon that would drain levels, disjuntion was the best option.

The party went in full speed to attack the wizard and his allies, and the first thing the wizard did was disjuntion. The lifedrinker weapon managed to survive, but nearly everything the artificer had was completely destroyed.

The fight went on for a bit longer, but it became clear that the party was in trouble because the mage was flying out of range, had all his various buffs up, and was simply raining destruction down on the PCs.

At this point, the ogre artificer remembered that while he may no longer be an artificer, he was still a freaking ogre. The ogre picked up the party cleric (who had just cast an anti-magic field on himself), and threw him at the flying wizard.. The anti-magic field made all of the wizard's buff's drop, and the party destroyed him moments later.

TL; DR - Disjuntions can be devistating, but sometimes they lead to fastball specials.


In general, I really hate Save-or-Die spells. They always feel cheap, and the removal of those types of spells is one of the reasons I switched over to 4E

Hanuman
2010-12-28, 07:31 PM
Fell Drain + Anything

Enterti
2010-12-28, 07:42 PM
^: It's the spell from Shining South that doesn't let you take an action without being hit by a large number of d6s per action and having to save versus not being able to complete the action anyway.

If I'm remembering correctly, ayway.


Could you find and post the description? I would rather not add it without being able to see exactly what it is capable of

Ernir
2010-12-28, 07:44 PM
I'd counter this by saying the people most likely to suffer from disjunction removing their magical items would be melee based characters, because they have no spells or whatever to fall back on, and most melee centric characters do not have a great will save. So the people who would be affected most are the people most likely to be affected. It really is a harsh spell that can destroy the Fighters +8 Sword of awesomeness just because the fighter has a wis score of 10 and will as a bad save.
The fact that melee characters tend to have poor will saves and excessive equipment dependency isn't a problem with Disjunction, though. It's a problem with 3.5. =/

Although I admit Disjunction isn't exactly helping matters.

So? :smallconfused: Most spells that are worth complaining about are for OOC issues. Being annoyed at a spell's ability to cause repeated TPKs is an OOC issue because the relevant characters are all dead.
I... think we are trying to say the same thing.

BridgeCity
2010-12-28, 07:48 PM
The fact that melee characters tend to have poor will saves and excessive equipment dependency isn't a problem with Disjunction, though. It's a problem with 3.5. =/

Although I admit Disjunction isn't exactly helping matters.


Haha well yeah, I'd say that the fact we are making a list of spells you should never use shows a problem with 3.5

I'll admit I have a personal hate for disjunction because I really don't enjoy playing casters so I'm always a melee guy, but as you say it really isn't helping the game.

Skorj
2010-12-28, 07:49 PM
I won't allow Disjunction for two reasons.

It's the worst bookeeping nightmare in the game - each affected magic item has its own save, which can be used in place of the character's will save if better, and which you've never bothered to calculate before and propably don't even have that rule handy.
It can break a player's emotional attachment to his character, if his gear is personalized. Never do that. I like a game where all the best gear has a cool story attached, where characters are clad in their history.


Creative uses of Wish/Miracle I could see - if it fit the RP quite well (never done that myself, but I could see it).

Streamers is just mechanically broken. Come to think of it, it's surprising how few 3.5 spells are just broken like that.

Morithias
2010-12-28, 07:54 PM
Saintify the Wicked - Nothing a "Chaotic Neutral" wizard/rogue/whatever hates more than breaking so many laws a LG NPC is willing to blow a level just to get rid of their ways.

Personally I use it as soon as they bust out Gate for the first time. As soon as you that spell in a campaign anything goes.

Uncertainty
2010-12-28, 07:58 PM
Nobody mentioned Mindrape?

AslanCross
2010-12-28, 07:58 PM
Something a bit lower-level: Solid Fog. Not inherently boring, but it slows down the game to a crawl. Nothing fun about that.

Koury
2010-12-28, 08:03 PM
Something a bit lower-level: Solid Fog. Not inherently boring, but it slows down the game to a crawl. Nothing fun about that.

My group was fighting a million zombie-ish monsters and were going to be overrun pretty quickly when they fell back to a chokepoint, threw up a Solid Fog and were able to get a hold on the battle because of it. They were also able to save a bunch of civilians too because of that.

Coidzor
2010-12-28, 08:09 PM
Nobody mentioned Mindrape?

Well, the poster above you mentioned Holy Mindrape. As something regularly used to eliminate characters from the game.

Streamers: Page 50 of Shining South.

5th level wizard spell,1 or more streamers with readied touch attacks whenever the target(s) takes an action during the duration of the spell.

Depending upon DM adjuication that might just be once a round per streamer, but it's still a ridiculously good thing for locking down something not immune to damage.

AslanCross
2010-12-28, 08:10 PM
My group was fighting a million zombie-ish monsters and were going to be overrun pretty quickly when they fell back to a chokepoint, threw up a Solid Fog and were able to get a hold on the battle because of it. They were also able to save a bunch of civilians too because of that.

When the PCs use it, sure.

When the DM uses it on the PCs, not so much. I did, once. The monsters can't shoot into the cloud, and all the PCs take oh, 5 turns or more of "I make a five-foot step."

Tactically sound, yes. Not broken, yes. Incredibly boring, very much so.

ffone
2010-12-28, 08:11 PM
My group was fighting a million zombie-ish monsters and were going to be overrun pretty quickly when they fell back to a chokepoint, threw up a Solid Fog and were able to get a hold on the battle because of it. They were also able to save a bunch of civilians too because of that.


He's not saying it's not a clever tactic to use.

Rather, characters in it will likely need to ask to DM for feedback after every 5' of their move action, rather than just taking it in one go. It's a horrible thing for PBP games, particularly, where every post cycle can be a day or two.

Less of an issue in the tactic you described - b/c there it's NPCs (zombies) inside it, so the omniscient DM can still move them w/o an involved feedback cycle. But imagine of the party and zombies were reversed .

Ashram
2010-12-28, 08:17 PM
I'm confused by the fortitude partial part of that. What happens to you if you pass the save? It sounds like nothing, but that wouldn't be "partial."

Anyway, I think Power Word Pain is one of the nastiest spells you can hit them with. At low levels, it's a death sentence, but a slow one...

JaronK

He missed a part.


Eternity of Torture
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Pain 9
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject’s body is twisted and warped, wracked forever with excruciating pain. The subject is rendered helpless, but—as long as the spell continues— it is sustained and has no need for food, drink, or air. The subject does not age—all the better to ensurea true eternity of unimaginable torture. The subject takes 1 point of drain to each ability score each day until all scores are reduced to 0 (except Constitution, which stays at 1). The subject cannot heal or regenerate. Lastly, the subject is completely unaware of its surroundings, insensate to anything but the excruciating pain.

A single Fortitude saving throw is all that stands between a target and this horrible spell. However, even if the saving throw is successful, the target still feels terrible (but temporary) pain. The target takes 5d6 points of damage immediately and takes a –4 circumstance penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for 1 round per level of the caster.

Enterti
2010-12-28, 08:21 PM
As great a spell as Solid fog is I am not going to add it for several reasons. First of which being that while it can slow the game to a crawl it will not flat out take a character out of the fight. Secondly it cannot cause any permanent harm to the character or a players attachment to the character in such a way that other spells on the list can.

Draz74
2010-12-28, 08:21 PM
Something a bit lower-level: Solid Fog. Not inherently boring, but it slows down the game to a crawl. Nothing fun about that.

Well, by that standard, we should add pretty much all summoning spells to the list, too. :smalltongue:

(Which I'm actually OK with. I hate pretty much all summoning abilities except Astral Construct, not for their other effects, but just for their game-slowing effect.)

Ashram
2010-12-28, 08:27 PM
Well, by that standard, we should add pretty much all summoning spells to the list, too. :smalltongue:

(Which I'm actually OK with. I hate pretty much all summoning abilities except Astral Construct, not for their other effects, but just for their game-slowing effect.)

Luckily, Solid Fog was changed for the better in Pathfinder.

Runestar
2010-12-28, 08:39 PM
Spells which effectively remove a PC from combat are no fun, like forcecage and maze.

Long duration effects like a sea hag's daze (which lasts 3 days) can be an issue as well.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-12-28, 08:53 PM
I'm not going to say that a DM should never use Blasphemy against their players, but they should never do so without careful consideration. Blasphemy, and the other spells (particularly Dictum, less so Holy Word and Word of Chaos) have the ability to shut down entire parties, and there are very few defenses.

The problem isn't when other NPC spellcasters prepare Blasphemy. The problem is the number of evil outsiders capable of using Blasphemy as a spell-like ability, more often than not at-will, at obscenely high caster levels. Blasphemy is easily the scariest part about facing a monster such as a Balor or Pit Fiend.

Defenses against Blasphemy:

-Keep more than 40 ft. away from the Blasphemer. In to melee fighting? Too bad. Oh, did I mention all those demons and devils have at-will Greater Teleport? Good luck with that.

-Greater Spell Immunity: you've got to blow a high level slot to protect yourself from one specific spell... well, if there's one specific spell you need to look out for... probably your best defense, actually.

-Silence: silence protects you from spells with the [Sonic] descriptor, of which Blasphemy is one. However, unless you've got a rod of Silent spell, or the feat itself, you've just limited most of your casting options. Meanwhile, the Pit Fiend just Greater Dispels your silence, or wades into melee...

-Spell Resistance: Again, evil outsiders have such high caster levels that SR is only a last-ditch defense. Probably the only defense available to parties at the middling levels.

-Anti-Magic Field: You're safe, but like Silence, it limits your options. At least it can't be dispelled...

-Contingency: "Whenever a Blasphemy effect happens..." or "Whenever I am dazed," etc. etc.

The worst part about Blasphemy is that it can daze targets, which is a notoriously difficult status ailment to defend yourself from. Dictum stuns, which is slightly easier to defend against. Holy Word blinds and deafens (meh; at the levels you'll be seeing it, there are much worse things), and Word of Chaos confuses (annoying, but hardly as lethal as stunning or dazing).

And if you've been level drained, or just happen to be a low-level shmuck in the wrong place at the wrong time? Well, then you can just be paralyzed, or cut out the middle-man and die. No save.

Oh, I'll also mention that while Holy Word, Dictum, or Word of Chaos have the potential to be potent weapons in the arsenal of most non-evil parties, the fact that these spells effect all targets not of the alignment of the spell makes them deadly in a mixed-alignment party. Hordes of demons or devils can spam Blasphemy with impunity, but your party has to be careful not to accidentally gimp their CN rogue with a Holy Word or Dictum. And your angel allies that joined you as you stormed Hell's Gates face the same problem.

Nasty, nasty spells, they are. Problematic.

Edit
Whoops. Word of Chaos stuns. Dictum slows. So yeah, Word of Chaos is second best.

Koury
2010-12-28, 09:13 PM
Tactically sound, yes. Not broken, yes. Incredibly boring, very much so.

Oh, I wasn't really saying anything one way or the other about what you said. Mostly just sharing a story. :smallsmile:

Enterti
2010-12-28, 10:55 PM
I found Streamers...
Streamers
Evocation
Level: Cleric 5, Sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Medium (100ft+10ft/level)
Effect: One or more streamers
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving throw: none
Spell resistance: yes
You cause a number of glowing, red streamers to shoot forth from the your hand when you cast the spell. You may fire one streamer plus one additional streamer for every 3 levels beyond 9th(max4). Each streamer targets one creature; multiple streamers can each be targeted at a different creature, or many streamers can target one creature. A streamer moves on its own, pursuing its target without your concentration, hovering in the same space as the target with a readied touch attack. Whenever the target makes any sort of action the streamer makes a touch attack against it (at the casters attack bonus). On a successful attack roll, the streamer does 5d10 points of damage. If the target takes no actions for the duration of the spell the streamers around it dispensary with no effect.

So yeah... that's definitely broken. Especially if your BAB gives you multiple attacks

John Campbell
2010-12-29, 12:07 AM
Evard's black tentacles in 3.5 can be one of these... though it depends some on party composition. The fighter-types are the only ones who'll beat its grapple check through anything but sheer dumb luck, and only an optimized grapple-monster is going to have a good chance of it. And optimized grapple-monsters are unlikely to be able to do anything to help other characters stuck in it... except for distract the enemy from going around coup-de-gracing everyone when they're pinned. That's the really annoying part, because it means 3/4ths of the party gets to do nothing for the rest of the encounter except fail impossible grapple checks. Hold person and its ilk are similarly frustrating, but with those at least the characters most likely to resist are the characters that can help the others out with a break enchantment or freedom of movement or whatnot.

Our last party got hit with Evard's three times over the course of the campaign. The first one was after our fighter-type had gotten ray of enfeeblemented, and it would've been a TPK except that the DM threw us a deus ex machina rescue by a powerful NPC's cohort. The second time, our sorcerer managed, by dint of a nat 20 and a poor roll by the tentacles, to get a spell off, and succeeded in dispelling it. The third time, I walked through it with a ring of freedom of movement, the fighter-type busted out a couple rounds later with a good grapple check, and the rest of the party got to sit around failing grapple checks for the entire fight while we kept the bad guys off them.

Pathfinder's changes to the grapple rules gave it a good, hard, and much-deserved nerfing. (Or maybe it just seems that way because I'm playing a 20-Str 21-Dex full-BAB Barbarian now, with CMD through the roof...)

Swordguy
2010-12-29, 12:18 AM
Never?

There are none. Oh, don't get me wrong, there are spells that are horrifically broken, by themselves or in combination. There are spells that slow the game to a crawl or make it unenjoyable for everyone involved. But never?

No - ANY spell or spell combination is fair game...once the players have used it first. The PCs are special by way of their attributes and the fact that the campaign is about them, true, but they're aren't so special as to be the only people in the world, ever, to be allowed to throw the busted things in the system around. If a spell or spell combination is so broken as to engender cries of "you shouldn't use this against players", then players shouldn't be using it themselves in the first place.

To think otherwise is to ignore even the pretense of verisimilitude in the game.

tl;dr? If you don't want stuff used against your PCs, don't use it against NPCs. Détente-based approach to game balance for the win!

Hanuman
2010-12-29, 12:24 AM
Evard's black tentacles in 3.5 can be one of these... though it depends some on party composition. The fighter-types are the only ones who'll beat its grapple check through anything but sheer dumb luck, and only an optimized grapple-monster is going to have a good chance of it. And optimized grapple-monsters are unlikely to be able to do anything to help other characters stuck in it... except for distract the enemy from going around coup-de-gracing everyone when they're pinned. That's the really annoying part, because it means 3/4ths of the party gets to do nothing for the rest of the encounter except fail impossible grapple checks. Hold person and its ilk are similarly frustrating, but with those at least the characters most likely to resist are the characters that can help the others out with a break enchantment or freedom of movement or whatnot.

Our last party got hit with Evard's three times over the course of the campaign. The first one was after our fighter-type had gotten ray of enfeeblemented, and it would've been a TPK except that the DM threw us a deus ex machina rescue by a powerful NPC's cohort. The second time, our sorcerer managed, by dint of a nat 20 and a poor roll by the tentacles, to get a spell off, and succeeded in dispelling it. The third time, I walked through it with a ring of freedom of movement, the fighter-type busted out a couple rounds later with a good grapple check, and the rest of the party got to sit around failing grapple checks for the entire fight while we kept the bad guys off them.

Pathfinder's changes to the grapple rules gave it a good, hard, and much-deserved nerfing. (Or maybe it just seems that way because I'm playing a 20-Str 21-Dex full-BAB Barbarian now, with CMD through the roof...)
Powerful spells or clever setups are to challenge players, same with evards.

This discussion is more about banning spell usage indescriminate of situation.

Evards, TBH, is an AMAZING spell to use on PC's, it's cheap, easy, tactically sound and to be blunt HORRIFYING.

Have some black shrouded arcane "cleric" cast that on you, and watch shadow limbs reach up from the earth and strangle you or your buddy.

See, it COULD be abused, but no DM should play any hostile-like monster to the best of the abilities, and the CR for enemy casters assume they are not opt.

If your party can't deal with it, treat Evards in terms of hostiles to be more like a 5th level spell but keep it the same level, don't arm casters with the best spells they could use like a PC does.

HunterOfJello
2010-12-29, 12:26 AM
Random plot device spells that the PCs will never gain access to. This especially applies to spells cast by low level enemies.

As a DM, I only use spells and abilities from the books. If you start introducing random, unbalanced spells cast by normal to low level enemies, then you're just being lazy.

The exception to this would be epic level spells or custom spells that are the equivalent of a 7th level or higher spell. If a spell is that high of a level, then it's being cast by a high level spellcaster and could easily be a spell that person created or a spell that has been mostly lost from public knowledge. Still, the spell should be realistic in terms of spell level and the class level needed to be able to cast it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-29, 12:34 AM
My rule of thumb is as follows: If you use it, expect it to be used against you at some point.

Thus if my party keeps using things like Shivering Touch, they should not be surprised when they run across a kobold sorcerer with the same spell to shut someone down.

Save or Loose effects are fine, because they don't actually kill your party off, just make things a bit more... challenging.

Save or Die effects are less fine, because basically either it does nothing, or the PC has to re-write his character. So either it's not a threat, or it's an insta-gib. That's not fun to play with.

Hawriel
2010-12-29, 12:44 AM
The DM does not use these spells. Peaple use these spells. NPCs are peaple in the world you are playing in. They have just as much of a right as a PC has to use them. Suck it up.

Just last night my character lost all but four of his belongings. Nat one on the save for a fire storm and botched just about every save for my characters gear. That was in the first round of combat. A heal spell from the claric and I was beating the snot out of the enemy caster the next round.

Will I get more items later? Yes. However it is the natural consiquence of defeating the enemy. The GM is by no means obligated to replace every thing I lossed.

Koury
2010-12-29, 12:48 AM
However it is the natural consiquence of defeating the enemy. The GM is by no means obligated to replace every thing I lossed.

He is likewise not obligated to create balanced encounters.

Thing is, he still should.

Grendus
2010-12-29, 12:51 AM
Eternity of TortureEternity of Torture
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Pain 9
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject’s body is twisted and warped, wracked forever with excruciating pain. The subject is rendered helpless, but—as long as the spell continues— it is sustained and has no need for food, drink, or air. The subject does not age—all the better to ensure a true eternity of unimaginable torture.

The subject takes 1 point of drain to each ability score each day until all scores are reduced to 0 (except Constitution, which stays at 1). The subject cannot heal or regenerate. Lastly, the subject is completely unaware of its surroundings, insensate to anything but the excruciating pain. A single Fortitude saving throw is all that stands between a target and this horrible spell.

(Unless they're in to that sort of thing, I guess)

Meh, it's a basic save or suck (not even save or die). I see nothing in there that says it can't be dispelled, and if your enemy has access to 9th level spells chances are the party arcane or divine should be powerful enough to dispel it given a few tries. Worst case, you have to wait until the next day and then the party cleric/wizard gets rid of it. Since, as I read it, the unable to heal part ends when the spell does, give them a restoration when they come out of it. A little therapy and they're back in business. Pre-epic, it's only a DC 31 dispel check max, only need an 11 or better to beat it.

The only time this would be a 'never' spell would be if it were either undispellable or if you prepared enough to incapacitate the party divine and arcane, or if the party has no full casters. It's hardly a never use, compared to most 9th level spells it's downright tame.



Will I get more items later? Yes. However it is the natural consiquence of defeating the enemy. The GM is by no means obligated to replace every thing I lossed.

Gramar nazi time - it's lost. And the DM should still pay attention to WBL - if he blasts the BSF's 100,000 gp sword, he needs to find some way to give the BSF 100,000 gp worth of replacement gear plus some award for surviving after his gear was disjuncted. But I agree, hardly a never spell, more like an "only use it once, you jerk" spell.

gbprime
2010-12-29, 01:03 AM
The last total party kill I was involved in was a BBEG fight. The party was buffed to the gills to counter what we knew he could do. What we didn't count on was the sorcerer with...

Reciprocal Gyre.

He flat out nuked our wizard (me) with it before my initiative as i failed both the will save and the reroll and took about 18d12. With our counterspelling gone, the DM pulled no punches and zapped the tanks with it as well, each of them taking 14d12 or so and 1 of them ending up dazed for the rest of his life...

So yeah, he never should have used Reciprocal Gyre once, much less three times in one fight. :smallsigh:

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-29, 01:10 AM
Holy Word (and dictum, blasphemy, word of chaos). They won't have long-term effects if the party survives. But, if the party is of the correct alignment, its pretty much a TPK.

Multiple no-save, area effect Save or lose/save or sucks piled on your party when you run into a hostile cleric one level higher than you is never conducive to survival.

The entire "Alignment Word" set of spells can go to Baator. I lost count of the number of times I got hosed by the Yuan-Ti in the first Neverwinter Nights game using Blasphemy. Pretty much anything "Roll above this number or Die", where "this number" is 15 or greater.

Shpadoinkle
2010-12-29, 01:23 AM
As a rule of thumb, when I DM I don't throw Save-or-Die spells at the PCs. Save-or-Suck and Save-or-be-Useless spells are used, but they have greatly reduced durations or allow a new save every round or something.

Why? Mostly because it's in absolutely no way fun to have your character fail a single roll and not be able to do anything for the next hour or so of real time. Getting a game together is hard enough, and as a player I wouldn't want to spend the session sitting on my thumbs because of one bad roll.

PCs are welcome to use these spells if they want, as written, but as a general rule NPCs won't. NPCs have other advantages the PCs don't.

ericgrau
2010-12-29, 01:30 AM
What's wrong with feeblemind?

Half of the rest are disablers. I can see the boredom of being taken out of a long fight, but at the same time you lose something when you lose the threat of spells like that. There are ways around many of them which gives PCs something else to do besides hitting things. Forcecage in particular is far more devastating to monsters than to PCs with 5 flavors of teleport. Or after the 5th ressurection death becomes less special... until trap the soul. It would be better to try to fix the overly long fights if possible; I know that's hard. Or find other workarounds. But if at all possible I wouldn't want to eliminate every non-damage spell there is. If I want to play WoW I'll get on a computer.

AsteriskAmp
2010-12-29, 01:31 AM
Bestow Curse can be Pretty Crippling for a low level party

Enterti
2010-12-29, 01:39 AM
As a rule of thumb, when I DM I don't throw Save-or-Die spells at the PCs. Save-or-Suck and Save-or-be-Useless spells are used, but they have greatly reduced durations or allow a new save every round or something.

Why? Mostly because it's in absolutely no way fun to have your character fail a single roll and not be able to do anything for the next hour or so of real time. Getting a game together is hard enough, and as a player I wouldn't want to spend the session sitting on my thumbs because of one bad roll.

PCs are welcome to use these spells if they want, as written, but as a general rule NPCs won't. NPCs have other advantages the PCs don't.

This is exactly my reasoning for opening this thread. NPCs generally stick around for an encounter unless they are plot-centric, and even then they need to take a backseat to the players. When NPCs start throwing Save or Dies or long duration save or sucks the players begin too feel less attached to their characters. They begin viewing the characters as more of a set of moves and skills than things that they can become immersed in.

So please continue contributing to this list, I would like to get a top 25 or so broken spells compiled and then at a later date post a list of them with in depth reasonings for each choice

Popertop
2010-12-29, 01:41 AM
I never liked 3.5 disjunction, PF disjunction is a much saner alternative.

What are some alternatives to save or dies?

I've read that a few people use high number ability damage,
I think maybe that could work.

Enterti
2010-12-29, 01:41 AM
What's wrong with feeblemind?

Half of the rest are disablers. I can see the boredom of being taken out of a long fight, but at the same time you lose something when you lose the threat of spells like that. There are ways around many of them which gives PCs something else to do besides hitting things. Forcecage in particular is far more devastating to monsters than to PCs with 5 flavors of teleport. Or after the 5th ressurection death becomes less special... until trap the soul. It would be better to try to fix the overly long fights if possible; I know that's hard. Or find other workarounds. But if at all possible I wouldn't want to eliminate every non-damage spell there is. If I want to play WoW I'll get on a computer.

I will admit Feeblemind is on their because my DM sent it against my LV 8 wizard and I was angry at it. It is pretty difficult for a lv 8 party to get rid of

Removed Feeblemind

AtomicKitKat
2010-12-29, 01:50 AM
The main problem with Blasphemy et. al is that they allow 0 save, and the only defense against them is to have more HD than the caster(last time I checked, CR is usually a percentage of HD, rather than the other way around), so unless the NPCs are of exactly the same HD level as the PCs, or no more than 1 level above, you're looking at instant death/paralysis(which is as good as being dead). Even if they're no more than 5 HD above the PCs, being slowed/blinded/weakened in addition to being dazed/deafened is incredibly debilitating. Also the prime reason that high Level Adjustment player characters will be hosed. If any spells deserve to be in the top 10 list, those 4 could take up 4 slots in and of themselves(although they're technically just slight variations on the same spell).

Runestar
2010-12-29, 06:39 AM
Half of the rest are disablers. I can see the boredom of being taken out of a long fight, but at the same time you lose something when you lose the threat of spells like that. There are ways around many of them which gives PCs something else to do besides hitting things. Forcecage in particular is far more devastating to monsters than to PCs with 5 flavors of teleport. Or after the 5th ressurection death becomes less special... until trap the soul. It would be better to try to fix the overly long fights if possible; I know that's hard. Or find other workarounds. But if at all possible I wouldn't want to eliminate every non-damage spell there is. If I want to play WoW I'll get on a computer.

Let's put it this way. How would you feel after having driven for more than an hour to get to a friend's house for a game of dnd, only to be taken out of combat in the first round and reduced to the role of a mere spectator for the rest of that 1 hour+?

Plus, SoD spells just don't feel that satisfying to me. Either I kill the PC outright, or it does nothing (because the PC made his save or is immune somehow). And at higher lvs, I can expect my party to be immune to a wide variety of spell effects.

I personally prefer more drawn out combats where the enemy debuffs the party with spells like waves of exhaustion or slow, with tanks/mooks beating down on them.

I feel there are ample ways of keeping combat challenging while still engaging the whole party and not disabling them outright (which I feel is still okay to do to the npcs because the DM still has like 4-5 to play around with?). :smallsmile:

True, there are ways around this. For example, revivify can instantly revive a PC KO'ed by finger of death. Dispel magic can undo effects like hold monster. I guess if your party can handle it...

Kaww
2010-12-29, 06:59 AM
Never?

There are none. Oh, don't get me wrong, there are spells that are horrifically broken, by themselves or in combination. There are spells that slow the game to a crawl or make it unenjoyable for everyone involved. But never?

No - ANY spell or spell combination is fair game...once the players have used it first. The PCs are special by way of their attributes and the fact that the campaign is about them, true, but they're aren't so special as to be the only people in the world, ever, to be allowed to throw the busted things in the system around. If a spell or spell combination is so broken as to engender cries of "you shouldn't use this against players", then players shouldn't be using it themselves in the first place.

To think otherwise is to ignore even the pretense of verisimilitude in the game.

tl;dr? If you don't want stuff used against your PCs, don't use it against NPCs. Détente-based approach to game balance for the win!

+1 here. I use things they use. Sometimes with a bit more tact, sometimes to bash them. Everything depends on what/how/why PCs do...

Also if I'm using something that is absolutely unknown/new to my players I give them references and explanations on how it works. The strategy/use they have to figure out on their own...

Trebloc
2010-12-29, 12:46 PM
For my group, we only use PH1 & 2 for spells.

Disjunction is the only spell we don't use -- we've houseruled it to be a dispel magic w/o level cap that can take down the things Disjuction can take down, just not wiping out gear.

So yes, the NPCs can and do cast Save or Dies and Save or Sucks at the party. If they didn't, and the PCs know this, then the game changes. The gear and spells that counter those effects become useless. PC casters are even more powerful as they don't have to protect themselves from those effects.

Maybe it's just my group, but they all keep in mind how each PC can protect themselves from these effects and actively use them. Deathward on armor, Ring of Freedom, Mindblank, Heroes' Feast...etc. Sure, some of the countermeasures are limited use or dispelable, but they're still very helpful in protecting PCs from those spells. And yeah, PCs have kicked the bucket from SoDs, isn't that what Raise Dead is for?

Kaww
2010-12-29, 12:53 PM
And yeah, PCs have kicked the bucket from SoDs, isn't that what Raise Dead is for?

Actually no it's not there for that. I think only resurrection can get you back on your feet after failing a SoD effect...

Ernir
2010-12-29, 01:03 PM
Actually no it's not there for that. I think only resurrection can get you back on your feet after failing a SoD effect...

I read that line as only referring to [Death] effects and Death Attacks, not anything that slays instantly.

Blackfang108
2010-12-29, 02:32 PM
Maze can be a massive issue when cast on the less than stellar Int people.
Autohit (SR:Yes, at least), DC 20 Int check as a full-round action to escape, or 10 minutes.

Anyone with a weak modifier can be stuck for a large portion of the combat.

Granted, in 4e, we had our DM use Dismissal on a PC. Target is removed from the battlefield (Save Ends). His dice hated him that day, and he spent about 10-15 rounds in limbo. on a DC 10, no modifiers check.

And then died three turns after coming out. (Controllers should never try to stand toe-to-toe with anything.)

Tyndmyr
2010-12-29, 03:00 PM
Not really on-topic, but a deck of many things?

I find this is actually an item that's great fun at extremely low levels. Read, before people have gotten attached to their characters, yet. It is, of course, a horrible idea late game, when generating new characters for half the party is a campaign killer, and losing all magical items is worse than death.

If it hasn't been said already, Mindrape. That's DM fiat in spell form, in the worst way. Also, anything printed in the BoEF.

Grommen
2010-12-29, 03:01 PM
Pathfinder's changes to the grapple rules gave it a good, hard, and much-deserved nerfing. (Or maybe it just seems that way because I'm playing a 20-Str 21-Dex full-BAB Barbarian now, with CMD through the roof...)
^^^
This is true. Thought I started using spells like Black Tenticals and Telekinesis because I finally remembered the mechanic used and didn't have to look it up in the book time and time again. Yaye Pathfinder making a rule I can remember.

I typically don't toss save or suck the big one spells at my players. Wile it is fun to implode the mooks. It's not fun getting imploded (and thussly not allowed to even get raised from the dead). A lot of my players refuse to raise a character from the dead so this makes save or die spells very tricky.

I also don't like any spell that does not allow for some type of save, attack roll, spell resistance, CMD etc. So the power words are right out the window.

I don't think I've tossed old Modicanion's Disjunction on a party (though I've threatened).

I would toss Implosion on the heap too. Save or pretty much your gone for good. Not good to do to the players.

Prismatic Spray to. Half of the effects are Save or something horrible will happen to you!

And I must be doing something wrong cause I blaspheme, unholy word, and enversion the snot out of my players.

Recently I've taken to using reverse gravity cause they go "Wheeeee splat!" all the time. It's fun for all :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2010-12-29, 03:06 PM
Enervation is legit. Unlike most negative level effects, there is no risk of permanency. So, while it's effective, it doesn't screw the character over in the long term.

Pretty much any spell that destroys the character as a fun option to play without allowing any sort of recovery is a bad idea, really. At different levels of play, this can mean different things.

Reverse Gravity? Now, that's just fun and games for all. I loves it.

Volos
2010-12-29, 04:51 PM
Eternity of TortureEternity of Torture
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Pain 9
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject’s body is twisted and warped, wracked forever with excruciating pain. The subject is rendered helpless, but—as long as the spell continues— it is sustained and has no need for food, drink, or air. The subject does not age—all the better to ensure a true eternity of unimaginable torture.

The subject takes 1 point of drain to each ability score each day until all scores are reduced to 0 (except Constitution, which stays at 1). The subject cannot heal or regenerate. Lastly, the subject is completely unaware of its surroundings, insensate to anything but the excruciating pain. A single Fortitude saving throw is all that stands between a target and this horrible spell.

(Unless they're in to that sort of thing, I guess)

Even though this is a joke, I think it is the kind of thing that I would enjoy using to imprison a certian NPC in my campaign.

Dr Bwaa
2010-12-29, 05:14 PM
Not really on-topic, but a deck of many things?

This is really, really, definitively true. When this (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/6/28/) came out, I couldn't believe how preposterously true-to-life it was, at least in my experience. My group has had a campaign that was a fun, reasonably normal dungeon-crashing campaign, but is now only referenced as "The Deck of Many Things Campaign".

Enterti
2010-12-29, 05:33 PM
What it the actual spell name for mindrape?

Dr Bwaa
2010-12-29, 05:43 PM
What it the actual spell name for mindrape?

It is called Mindrape. It's in BoVD. The core spell it's based on is CA spell that is more well-known (I think) is Programmed Amnesia.

peacenlove
2010-12-29, 05:45 PM
Black labyrinth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) (Scroll at the mysteries, check the 4th effect).

A mystery that shuts down ENTIRE CITIES FOR WEEKS. (and cripples ... well anybody and adds a ton of dice rolls)
No just no ...

Urpriest
2010-12-29, 05:52 PM
What it the actual spell name for mindrape?

Mindrape. That's what it's called.

"Holy Mindrape" is Sanctify the Wicked.

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 06:01 PM
It is called Mindrape. It's in BoVD. The core spell it's based on is Programmed Amnesia.

Well, not core, but Complete Arcane. Which was published after the BoVD and BoED.

Poil
2010-12-29, 06:47 PM
Reverse Gravity? Now, that's just fun and games for all. I loves it.

Even persisted?

Grommen
2010-12-29, 07:06 PM
Even outdoors? Persist it and the character leaves orbit.

They have to land eventually.

Taking off is optional....Landing Mandatory :smalleek:

ericgrau
2010-12-29, 07:17 PM
Let's put it this way. How would you feel after having driven for more than an hour to get to a friend's house for a game of dnd, only to be taken out of combat in the first round and reduced to the role of a mere spectator for the rest of that 1 hour+?

Plus, SoD spells just don't feel that satisfying to me. Either I kill the PC outright, or it does nothing (because the PC made his save or is immune somehow). And at higher lvs, I can expect my party to be immune to a wide variety of spell effects.

I personally prefer more drawn out combats where the enemy debuffs the party with spells like waves of exhaustion or slow, with tanks/mooks beating down on them.

I feel there are ample ways of keeping combat challenging while still engaging the whole party and not disabling them outright (which I feel is still okay to do to the npcs because the DM still has like 4-5 to play around with?). :smallsmile:

True, there are ways around this. For example, revivify can instantly revive a PC KO'ed by finger of death. Dispel magic can undo effects like hold monster. I guess if your party can handle it...
Eh the only SoD on the list was wail of the banshee, and that's a death effect (although ya warding the whole party is a bit difficult). One by one
Wail of the Banshee: yeah, mostly sucks but wardable
Disjunction: when you need to remove treasure on purpose, or to remove buffzillas and then you quickly restore the lost treasure with the hefty EL 17+ treasure tables
Wish/Miracle: if it's on par with an 1st-8th level spell, then, well, see spell levels 1-8
Power Word:Pain/kill, no save HP limit means it hurts casters more...
Holy Word(and friends), Appropriate CR, no over the top CL boosting cheese: We're blind and deaf..., cleric draws his remove blindness/deafness scroll he's had for 10 levels or casts restoration, tags himself then the party, assuming they haven't already downed the potions they've had for 5 levels
Energy Drain: If by the time you're facing 9th level spells you can't get a restoration within 24 hours, something is wrong with you.
Trap the Soul: see previous post
Forcecage: see previous post
Maze: Ya this one usually sucks
Bestow Curse(against low level parties): You lose half your actions or face a penalty. Meh. Ok fight's over, now go pay an NPC 150 gp to fix it.
Mindrape: Ya probably bad

Not familiar with these 3:
Eternity of Torture
Saintify the Wicked
Streamers

Or hold person grants a save every round, just to use Runestar's example, so it's unlikely to last the whole fight. True save or dies are a pain, ya, but they're rare. I can agree on removing those to avoid boring sessions but I wouldn't get overzealous and start culling half the spells in the book.

Enterti
2010-12-29, 08:08 PM
When I do compile the list I will lump all SoDs into one section with a few special mentions. Save or sucks will most likely not make appearances on the list unless they have permanent durations and are difficult to get rid of. The rest of the numbered list will most likely consist of spells that force SoDs repetitively, have absolutely no save and a crippling effect, or spells that cripple even if the save is made.
Disjunction will make an appearance on the list with an explanation of when it is and isn't acceptable to use, I.E. Use if the party is about to get huge rewards that will put them back to WPL. Do not use 2 rooms before the BBEG of the storyline's encounter

Frozen_Feet
2010-12-29, 08:22 PM
The topic title makes me laugh.

Because in my mind, there aren't any.

Granted, I most often use systems other than 3.5 D&D, and the play is at such low levels that the great big world-changing spells don't need to enter the stage - simple magic missile is equally lethal and irreversible than Power Word: Kill. :smalltongue:

If I'm going to include hefty magic in an adventure, I have no compunctions of making my players face the worst of it. In spirit of fair play, though, I'll give them some form of warning beforehand - if they fail to heed it, well, it's their own darn fault.

Runestar
2010-12-29, 08:36 PM
If I need a mass dispel, there is always chain dispel (PHB2).

I don't see how there is ever a "safe" way to use disjunction, seeing that you cannot even control what items get negated.:smallannoyed:

Morithias
2010-12-29, 09:02 PM
When I do compile the list I will lump all SoDs into one section with a few special mentions. Save or sucks will most likely not make appearances on the list unless they have permanent durations and are difficult to get rid of. The rest of the numbered list will most likely consist of spells that force SoDs repetitively, have absolutely no save and a crippling effect, or spells that cripple even if the save is made.
Disjunction will make an appearance on the list with an explanation of when it is and isn't acceptable to use, I.E. Use if the party is about to get huge rewards that will put them back to WPL. Do not use 2 rooms before the BBEG of the storyline's encounter

To be fair to the "Holy Mindrape" the fluff implies it's suppose to be less of a 'mind control' and more of a 'look into your soul and see what you have done' spell.

Heck a year is a brutally long time, we all know the 'diplomacy builds' could redeem an evil character faster by talking to him one a day for 2 weeks. I'm pretty sure level 9 magic is suppose to outdo skill checks like that.

Well, unless of course I'm now allowed to make NPCs with max/mined bluff checks, that can make the PCs convinced of just about anything.

Runestar
2010-12-29, 09:09 PM
To be fair to the "Holy Mindrape" the fluff implies it's suppose to be less of a 'mind control' and more of a 'look into your soul and see what you have done' spell.

Heck a year is a brutally long time, we all know the 'diplomacy builds' could redeem an evil character faster by talking to him one a day for 2 weeks. I'm pretty sure level 9 magic is suppose to outdo skill checks like that.

Well, unless of course I'm now allowed to make NPCs with max/mined bluff checks, that can make the PCs convinced of just about anything.

Also, if you want an example of how sanctify the wicked works, consider reading the book "The Gossamer Plain" from the Empyrean Odyssey series.

The entire book focuses on Alliza (that alu-fiend from the spider queen war novels" past, examines the various wicked deeds she had committed, and how she experiences remorse. It is hinted that everything she experiences is essentially a result of the "Sanctify the wicked" spell cast on her. :smallsmile:

erikun
2010-12-29, 09:11 PM
A Psion with full PP.

I'm an advocate for Psionics in general play, but I think that even the largest supporter will likely admit that a Psion with full PP and select anti-party spells easily pushes into very high-optimization play. Use with extreme caution.

Bang!
2010-12-29, 09:38 PM
This thread has convinced my OD&D-soaked brain that 3e isn't real D&D.
(Or whatever that Edition Warz meme is.)
Paranoia is real D&D.

Enterti
2010-12-29, 09:49 PM
Ok, I think I now have enough spells and arguments about them to begin typing a short semi-finalized list. I may PM some of you for assistance when rationalizing the reasons each spell is on the list if that is all right. Further does anyone have a recomendation as to where I should post the complete list?

Trebloc
2010-12-30, 12:34 PM
Actually no it's not there for that. I think only resurrection can get you back on your feet after failing a SoD effect...

By Raise dead, I was being lazy, but also including any spell or ability that brings a (N)PC back to life.

Regardless, if you remove those effects that are so "bad", you also remove the need of the countermeasures to those effects, which in turn, makes the (N)PCs more powerful overall because they no longer have to worry about the "bad" effects.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-30, 12:59 PM
I agree with disjuntion being a spell that shouldn't be used. Whether you like it or not, D&D (3.5 at least) is very gear orientated, and players spend a hell of a lot of time getting exactly what they want. Just erasing that hard work with a spell is over the top and fun ruining. Tone it down to a suppression and it's fine, but out-right destroying magic items is just stupid.

I've used Disjunction as a tactic many times once the players got to the epic levels. One player almost walked out on the game session since all his items were destroyed with a Disjunction. So yeah, if you know you have some hot headed players, then it might not be the best spell to throw at your players.

I run super high magic, high wealth, and high powered D&D campaigns, so they got tons of stuff for completing the adventure and I made sure they were back up to the normal wealth by level.

Volos
2010-12-30, 01:16 PM
Ok, I think I now have enough spells and arguments about them to begin typing a short semi-finalized list. I may PM some of you for assistance when rationalizing the reasons each spell is on the list if that is all right. Further does anyone have a recomendation as to where I should post the complete list?

You should post it here and in a thread of it's own. You could ask people to add to it and such, making it an appropriate sort of subject for a new thread. Or you could leave it here since you've already mentioned it.

Keinnicht
2010-12-30, 01:22 PM
Any spells that cause ability drain.

I'm fine causing ability damage, just not drain. My problem with drain is that it isn't temporarily disabling. It can screw a character up forever. I mean, if I was a player and my 18 strength fighter got reduced to 10 strength because of a couple of failed saves, I'd be pretty pissed off. A melee-oriented fighter with 10 strength just sucks to play.

Ernir
2010-12-30, 01:46 PM
Any spells that cause ability drain.

I'm fine causing ability damage, just not drain. My problem with drain is that it isn't temporarily disabling. It can screw a character up forever. I mean, if I was a player and my 18 strength fighter got reduced to 10 strength because of a couple of failed saves, I'd be pretty pissed off. A melee-oriented fighter with 10 strength just sucks to play.

But ability drain isn't very hard to reverse. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) :smallconfused:

2xMachina
2010-12-30, 02:13 PM
Just be sure that you don't ability drain Warforged Juggernauts.

Either it doesn't work, or they can't restore it, without a Limited Wish at least.

Tyndmyr
2010-12-30, 02:22 PM
Even persisted?

Certainly. By the level at which it appears, most or all of the party should have some means of flight. For the rest, well...you do have rope and stuff right? There are ways to escape.

The players just need to be clever about it. Not too, clever, though. The instant one of them says "free energy" or "screw the laws of thermodynamics", you're in trouble.

Kesnit
2010-12-30, 02:29 PM
But ability drain isn't very hard to reverse. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) :smallconfused:

This assumes the party has a divine caster. (And in the case of spontaneous divine casters, they took that spell). Or has a PC with UMD and a scroll/wand. Or is in a situation that would allow them to get to a high enough level NPC to cast the spell. (In the last situation, what is the STR 10-Fighter's-player supposed to do while the party gets back to where Restoration can be cast?)

That issue addresses another thing with the OP's question. Sure, some spell effects are easy to remove after the combat - if the party has the right assets. A spell that would be a minor inconvenience to one party could be a nightmare for another.

Telasi
2010-12-30, 02:49 PM
This assumes the party has a divine caster. (And in the case of spontaneous divine casters, they took that spell). Or has a PC with UMD and a scroll/wand. Or is in a situation that would allow them to get to a high enough level NPC to cast the spell. (In the last situation, what is the STR 10-Fighter's-player supposed to do while the party gets back to where Restoration can be cast?)


He's a fighter. He should fight. In an average game (in my experience), he's losing maybe +5 to hit and damage off a guy with a 1 BAB progression and likely feats buffing his to-hit. Not that big a deal, really. Especially since he still has his +x weapon, unless you're disjoining in the same encounter (in which case you are an evil, evil DM and I want to join your game :smallwink:).

I'm of the opinion that there are no spells that should never be used on a party, but that some should be used with caution. Anything the PCs do is always fair game; they aren't special enough to get sole access to the nasty stuff. In any other case, use judgement when selecting spells, and consider what the party can handle with a reasonable amount of luck

mabriss lethe
2010-12-30, 07:15 PM
Prismatic spray (and its other derivatives) are a bad idea just waiting to happen. after a series of unfortunate rolls you can have anything ranging from minor cuts and singes to a TPK, or probably worse... PCs scattered to random planes.