Why is Elan even around?

[G-Man Graves]

Honestly, how does Elan contribute in anyway? The only times he ever actually does anything is when bailing people out of situations he caused with his monumental stupidity. Burst and saved Haley from Nale? Big deal, Nale was only there because of Elan. Convinced the orcs to trade with the Azurites? Shame that the party was only saved by the actions of a shallow NPC. Get's the Order on Draketooth? He promptly tries to ruin it by attempting to kill his father, the lead in question, because that's the "dramatically correct" thing to do.

And before we get posts along the lines of "Why is Belkar still around" or "Why is Durkon still around", try to keep in mind that those characters actively contribute, without causing the problems in the first place.

[Tazar]

I do have to agree that Elan almost never contributes meaningfully in any way, and generally creates more problems than he solves.

As evidenced by the latest comic, for example.

[Kaeso]

To cause problems for the others to solve of course. As the Giant said in the FAQ, OotS isnt about a very efficient group doing the most efficient thing, but about a group of quasi-professionals getting into trouble for our amusement.

[G-Man Graves]

To cause problems for the others to solve of course. As the Giant said in the FAQ, OotS isnt about a very efficient group doing the most efficient thing, but about a group of quasi-professionals getting into trouble for our amusement.

See, I would by that, but while all the other characters that have caused problems have changed since the first hundred strips, Elan's problems haven't changed from "Lol I'm a man child, and now I'm going to get people to stab at me."

[Zmflavius]

See, I would by that, but while all the other characters that have caused problems have changed since the first hundred strips, Elan's problems haven't changed from "Lol I'm a man child, and now I'm going to get people to stab at me."

But that's kind of the point. Oots's purpose is not meant to be a guide on how to build an efficient party, but as a humorous webcomic. No matter how useless Elan is, he provides comic relief and is an indelible part of Oots for that reason. It is for precisely this same reason that the party opted to rescue him from the Bandits of Wooden Forest.

[CrimsonAngel]

He's the one who cheers people up and keeps people happy.

[G-Man Graves]

But that's kind of the point. Oots's purpose is not meant to be a guide on how to build an efficient party, but as a humorous webcomic. No matter how useless Elan is, he provides comic relief and is an indelible part of Oots for that reason. It is for precisely this same reason that the party opted to rescue him from the Bandits of Wooden Forest.

Back in comic 160, or whatever it was, the Bandit strip was funny because it was relatively fresh jokes. Elan did a few stupid things, but Roy ended up bailing everyone out and all was well. Here we are, six hundred strips later, and he's still meant to be the comic relief by doing moronic things. But instead of being fresh and original, it's "Oh look, Elan is an idiot. I wonder who's going to bail him out this time."

[Tazar]

But that's kind of the point. Oots's purpose is not meant to be a guide on how to build an efficient party, but as a humorous webcomic. No matter how useless Elan is, he provides comic relief and is an indelible part of Oots for that reason. It is for precisely this same reason that the party opted to rescue him from the Bandits of Wooden Forest.

My problem with Elan is that he's still doing the same "lol hijinks" from like Strip 50, and I just don't derive humor from this anymore. Every other character has grown and evolved in some way; Elan's really the same still.

[Porthos]

So, waitaminute. You are upset that Elan blew a Move Silently check (which was then dispalyed in a humorous manner)?

...

Wow. Tough crowd. :smalltongue:

[Tazar]

So, waitaminute. You are upset that Elan blew a Move Silently check (which was then dispalyed in a humorous manner)?

...

Wow. Tough crowd. :smalltongue:

Not really, it's just an good example for how he consistently fails in dumb ways.

[BridgeCity]

My problem with Elan is that he's still doing the same "lol hijinks" from like Strip 50, and I just don't derive humor from this anymore. Every other character has grown and evolved in some way; Elan's really the same still.

I agree. I'm all for the story being about making the wrong decisions or doing something stupid, but I prefger there to be at least some logic, however skewed, behind the decisions made, or it just gets too stupid. It is easy to have the party honestly believing they are taking the right course of action when they are actually making it worse, and for the most part this is what is happening, but not with Elan.

His man-boy status got old real fast, he isn't funny, and he and Haley seem to be following the same path that J.D. and Elliot did in Scrubs, where they became just a series of cheap, low-witt, tired sex jokes, and not much else.

[RebelRogue]

Because the OotS are his friends (he's got Cha 18 after all: people like him!) and he's the lover of the co-leader as well.

[Porthos]

My problem with Elan is that he's still doing the same "lol hijinks" from like Strip 50, and I just don't derive humor from this anymore. Every other character has grown and evolved in some way; Elan's really the same still.

Sure. If you ignore all of the Character Development in the last 700+ strips. Even this past arc has been Character Development.

It might not be development you like, but it is certainly development. :smallwink:

In this case it is him at first mentally regressing because he finally got one of the things he most desired (a father). Then, as the arc develops, he has to come to grips with the fact that not only is his father a monster, but one that seems to have all of the answers.

That is Character Development.

Also, I would point out that the Elan of Strips 1-150 wouldn't be possible of experiencing the Characterization that he did in the Therkla Arc. Or indeed his fairly mature relationship with Haley.

Elan has in fact Grown. He's also Regressed a bit. But he also has much more depth now than he ever did at the beginning of the strip. And all of that is what I am talking about when it comes to Development.

[Burner28]

What Rebel Rogue said. Do you really think Roy will repeat what he did to Elan.... No ask yourself deeply.

[Tazar]

Except, he hasn't developed.
He's gone through some tough stuff, sure, but has that made him realize he needs to mature and grow up? No.
He still acts literally the exact same as he does in the first 50 strips.

[BridgeCity]

Sure. If you ignore all of the Character Development in the last 700+ strips. Even this past arc has been Character Development.

It might not be development you like, but it is certainly development. :smallwink:

In this case it is him at first mentally regressing because he finally got one of the things he most desired (a father). Then, as the arc develops, he has to come to grips with the fact that not only is his father a monster, but one that seems to have all of the answers.

That is Character Development.

Also, I would point out that the Elan of Strips 1-150 wouldn't be possible of experiencing the Characterization that he did in the Therkla Arc. Or indeed his fairly mature relationship with Haley.

Elan has in fact Grown. He's also Regressed a bit. But he also has much more depth now than he ever did at the beginning of the strip. And all of that is what I am talking about when it comes to Development.

What the person you quoted said was that Elan hasn't outgrown the 'lolhijinks' side of his character. You point out parts where he has become more mature, but none of that changes the fact he still does stupid stuff he should have learned to stop doing a long time ago, and it has become stale.

[Porthos]

Not really, it's just an good example for how he consistently fails in dumb ways.

No it is a sign of humor. It is absolutely no different, mechanically speaking, than someone stepping on a loud squeaky board. Or breaking a twig. In this case it is (much like the original strip) poking fun at the mechanic in question.

And in this case, we get a call back and a fourth wall breaking bending subversion.

Now the humor might not be to your taste. And that's fine. But it is absoultely a reminder that, for all of the Growing the Beard, the strip has done, it is still a humor strip at heart.

Doesn't mean that the humor has to work for you, of course. But you know the old saw about not being able to please all the people all the time. :smallwink:

[Tazar]

This is a humorous comic, but at this point, it's also got a great deal invested in the story and characters. And the fact is that humor is simply not an excuse for Elan failing to evolve as a character. Other characters manage to be funny and entertaining without remaining painfully two-dimensional.

Elan himself says it:
"Plus, now we're involved in complex and personal storylines instead of just cracking silly jokes."

Except, that's still what he does.

[Porthos]

What the person you quoted said was that Elan hasn't outgrown the 'lolhijinks' side of his character.

Nor should he.

All of the characters are still true to their base though.

Roy is still a Deadpan Snarker.
Belkar is a Kill First, Ask Questions Later kinda guy.
Durkon is still.... Durkon. :smalltongue:
Haley is still the Action Girl.
V is still the Pompous Know At All.
And, yes, Elan is still Fun Loving.

And I wouldn't have it any other way.

Now the characters might have changed around the edges a bit (for instance, V is trying to come to grips with his arrogance, Roy is trying to be more forgiving, et etc). But they are still have the core aspects to their personality.

Character Growth doesn't have to mean jettisoning all aspects of your previous attitude, after all. It can. But it doesn't have to be.

Personally, I think it will be a Dark Dark Day in the Comic if Elan ever lost his Fun Loving Side.

[Burner28]

Character Growth doesn't have to mean jettisoning all aspects of your previous attitude, after all. It can. But it doesn't have to be.

Personally, I think it will be a Dark Dark Day in the Comic if Elan ever lost his Fun Loving Side.

Exactly.. That would be Character Derailment. Even if it is a positive change, it still won't make any sense for Elan to stop being childlike

[G-Man Graves]

Sure. If you ignore all of the Character Development in the last 700+ strips. Even this past arc has been Character Development.

It might not be development you like, but it is certainly development. :smallwink:

In this case it is him at first mentally regressing because he finally got one of the things he most desired (a father). Then, as the arc develops, he has to come to grips with the fact that not only is his father a monster, but one that seems to have all of the answers.

That is Character Development.

Also, I would point out that the Elan of Strips 1-150 wouldn't be possible of experiencing the Characterization that he did in the Therkla Arc. Or indeed his fairly mature relationship with Haley.

Elan has in fact Grown. He's also Regressed a bit. But he also has much more depth now than he ever did at the beginning of the strip. And all of that is what I am talking about when it comes to Development.

If you can explain how Elan has developed, than perhaps I'll believe you. Oh, and "He multiclassed" doesn't count, because that's just a label. Similarly, him admitting that he's a gigantic moron isn't that impressive, since he doesn't actually change it.

His reactions in the Therkla Arc was basically "Oh, you were a nice girl who like me, that means that you are good. Guaranteed." Oh, and he learned how to be sarcastic. So maybe he's progressed closer to being a total jerk. :smallwink:

Also, there doesn't seem much to the Elan-Haley relation ship besides "Hurr we are sooooo in love, we are nice to each other and hold hands and screw. Alot." If you'll forgive the comparison, doesn't twilight get a load of flak for having shallow relationships built entirely around sex?

[Tazar]

Each has the core aspect still, but they've evolved around it. Elan hasn't, and that's my problem. Nothing so far has had any kind of real long-lasting impact on his actions. He's still a silly man-child that gets everyone in trouble a lot.

This current arc looks to possibly be more of the same, though I hope he actually changes this time.

[BridgeCity]

. . .And, yes, Elan is still Fun Loving.

. . .

Personally, I think it will be a Dark Dark Day in the Comic if Elan ever lost his Fun Loving Side.

You have confused fun loving and ineptitude. Enjoying the new years celebration? Fun loving. Enjoying the day with his dad? Fun loving. Joking around with the rest of the team? Fun loving.

Putting lives in danger and screwing up important plans because you are a moron? Being horribly and stupidly inept.

The two are different, 'lolhijinks' doesn't refer to Elan's sense of humour, it refers to the stupid hijinks caused by his dumb actions. He should keep the former, I agree, but he should have made significant progress to ridding himself of the latter by now.

[Porthos]

This is a humorous comic, but at this point, it's also got a great deal invested in the story and characters. And the fact is that humor is simply not an excuse for Elan failing to evolve as a character. Other characters manage to be funny and entertaining without remaining painfully two-dimensional.

Elan himself says it:
"Plus, now we're involved in complex and personal storylines instead of just cracking silly jokes."

Except, that's still what he does.

Do I have to point out all of the times in the comic that Elan has been Serious and Mature? :smallconfused:

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) a (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) few (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) for you to pursue (for instance, there is [almost] the entirety of the Therkla arc).

And that's just off the top of my head. There have been plenty of other times when Elan has been Serious. But, at heart, he's still going to be mostly Fun Loving.

And the source for Comic Relief. As, say, today's strip.

===

Besides, admit it, the callback to I GOT A FOUR was absolutely hilarious. :smalltongue:

And in no way different than accidently stepping on a twig. Well, except being much funnier. :smallwink:

[Tazar]

Therkla arc:
Elan comes to realize that being Evil doesn't necessarily make you a bad person/irredeemable/whatever.

Current arc:
Elan: CLEAVE AND SMITE EVIL

Sure, he had the experience, but he got nothing from it. No long-term impact.

The callback was good, but I wasn't a huge Elan fan even then, and the same humor now doesn't really appeal to me that much.

[Porthos]

You have confused fun loving and ineptitude. Enjoying the new years celebration? Fun loving. Enjoying the day with his dad? Fun loving. Joking around with the rest of the team? Fun loving.

Putting lives in danger and screwing up important plans because you are a moron? Being horribly and stupidly inept.

The two are different, 'lolhijinks' doesn't refer to Elan's sense of humour, it refers to the stupid hijinks caused by his dumb actions. He should keep the former, I agree, but he should have made significant progress to ridding himself of the latter by now.

Could you please explain how today's strip (which I can only assume is what brought this on) is being "horribly and stupidly inept"?

Elan rolled badly. And Rich decided to make it a Running Gag. Nothing else. :smallsmile:

[Tazar]

Could you please explain how today's strip (which I can only assume is what brought this on) is being "horribly and stupidly inept"?

Elan rolled badly. And Rich decided to make it a Running Gag. Nothing else. :smallsmile:

It's horribly inept because no other character does that, except for Elan; he makes a habit of these sort of things.

The fact that it's a repeated joke within the comic doesn't excuse the fact that he's acting like a moron. It's funny because he's acting like a moron.
As Elan himself says, the strip has evolved past the simple D&D jokes of its earlier days, and characters are going to be held much more accountable for their actions now.

[BridgeCity]

Could you please explain how today's strip (which I can only assume is what brought this on) is being "horribly and stupidly inept"?

Elan rolled badly. And Rich decided to make it a Running Gag. Nothing else. :smallsmile:

Also, it was not just today's strip. As was pointed out before (can't remember who by) attacking his father because it was the dramatically appropriate thing to do was not a smart move, and could have very possibly put the friends that he cares for so much in danger. Other times were mentioned before as well, I won't repeat them because you can just scroll up to read them.

[Dr.Epic]

There's this new thing called comedy and Elan's one of main providers of it in the comic.

[Tazar]

There's this new thing called comedy and Elan's one of main providers of it in the comic.

While I applaud your use of sarcasm, for me, Elan is a source of groans and facepalms rather than humor as of late. The man-child act is getting old.

Tarquin, on the other hand, has impressed me greatly; I find him to be the best character Rich has ever produced.

[G-Man Graves]

Nor should he.

All of the characters are still true to their base though.

Roy is still a Deadpan Snarker.
Belkar is a Kill First, Ask Questions Later kinda guy.
Durkon is still.... Durkon. :smalltongue:
Haley is still the Action Girl.
V is still the Pompous Know At All.
And, yes, Elan is still Fun Loving.


There's a bit of a difference between the others and Elan. As much as it violates my personal code, I will use the tropes names in the quote for sake of simplicity.

Roy is still a Deadpan Snarker, but he has become able to put his own grudges aside and realizes that the Xykon thread is too important to just say "Screw you, dad".

Belkar still kills first, but has realized that in order to thrive it is more important that he at least pretend to follow the rules and behave a bit. Compare, for example, his reaction to a bar fight in OtOoPCs and the one in the Empire of Blood.

Durkon is still himself, in that he is still the firm moral center of the party, and is the least likely to fly off the handle. I believe he went through his character development before the comic started.

Haley actually regressed recently, much to my dismay, when she pointed out that "Lol I wasn't going to pay at all, the signs that I wasn't 2-D greedy meant nothing. In fact, she seems to have become more ruthless as the comic goes on, which is understandable and enjoyable.

V is actually less of a know it all, and has begun to realize that it's not all about him. He's more concerned with contributing to the team, as opposed to being the team. Sure, he's still frustrated that other people "Did not pick a class that can do everything", but he has matured.

Elan is still fun loving. And still an idiot. No other changes have occurred that lasted. Yippee, he showed a rare burst of of intelligence and learned how to heal instead of learning a spell to make pretty lights appear. Whoopdy friggan do.

[Jay R]

The two are different, 'lolhijinks' doesn't refer to Elan's sense of humour, it refers to the stupid hijinks caused by his dumb actions. He should keep the former, I agree, but he should have made significant progress to ridding himself of the latter by now.

He be tha heart an' soul o' the team, lad. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) Plus, he makes me laugh. "Roy has boobies." *Snicker*.

In any event, he's not going to rid himself of the characteristic that allows him to trip over the main plot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html).

Besides, nobody is allowed to kill Elan. "Don't kill Elan" is one of Roy's pointless rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html).

[Tazar]

He be tha heart an' soul o' the team, lad. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) Plus, he makes me laugh. "Roy has boobies." *Snicker*.

In any event, he's not going to rid himself of the characteristic that allows him to trip over the main plot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html).

Besides, nobody is allowed to kill Elan. "Don't kill Elan" is one of Roy's pointless rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html).


I don't want him to lose those parts of his character; I just want him to grow and evolve like everyone else, which he has proven rather unable to do. He still doesn't consider the consequences of his actions at all, and he still acts like he has the mind of a ten-year-old most of the time.

[Jay R]

Elan is not designed to make the story end quickly ad efficiently. He's designed to make the story longer and funnier.

[FoE]

:durkon: He be tha heart an' soul o' tha team, lad.

[Porthos]

If you can explain how Elan has developed, than perhaps I'll believe you. Oh, and "He multiclassed" doesn't count, because that's just a label. Similarly, him admitting that he's a gigantic moron isn't that impressive, since he doesn't actually change it.

His reactions in the Therkla Arc was basically "Oh, you were a nice girl who like me, that means that you are good. Guaranteed." Oh, and he learned how to be sarcastic. So maybe he's progressed closer to being a total jerk. :smallwink:

Also, there doesn't seem much to the Elan-Haley relation ship besides "Hurr we are sooooo in love, we are nice to each other and hold hands and screw. Alot." If you'll forgive the comparison, doesn't twilight get a load of flak for having shallow relationships built entirely around sex?

It's been beaten to death in various discussion threads, but I'll summarize.

Elan has desperately wanted a Father Figure. So much so that he even cast Roy in that role (though it also overlapped into a Big Brother role). So when he saw his father for the first time, it completely overruled his initial attitude toward him. After all, if one recalls, he wasn't at all happy with General Tarquin at first. He was firmly convinced he was Bad News.

But the second he found out he was his father and it seemed like he had a pleasant personality, that all went out the window. He then became Willfully Blind to all of the personality faults of his father.

And why?

Because he finally got something that he had been aching for decades.

That is a sign of character depth. As is the sign (a 200 foot one, it turns out :smalltongue:) that he can set aside his feelings for his father and see him for who he really is.

As for the Haley/Elan relationship, there have been plenty of times where they are seen discussing things outside of sex. I just linked to a few in a prior post. They are sharing each others innermost concerns and inner demons. There is, to put it bluntly trust between the two. Enough for Haley to set aside her innate distrust of others. And enough for Elan to set aside his "Bardic Traditions".

Furthermore, one of the whole points of the Therkla Arc was that Elan wouldn't throw away his relationship with Haley. After all, he had literally no idea if he would ever see Haley again. For all he knew, she was dead. But even though he was separated for months, and even though someone was literally throwing themselves at him, he stayed true to Haley.

Not only that, he was able to become friends with Therkla without it becoming Sexual. He was able to form an emotional attachment to another woman and still make sure that Haley was his One and Only.

===

Also, he stood up to V. He stood up to Durkon. And he stood up for what he believed in during that entire arc. Now he might have been wrong (though in the case of V, I don't think he was). But all throughout that arc, he was shown standing up for what he believed in, as opposed to just going with the flow or letting people walk all over him.

Come to think of it, he made sure not to give into his anger by attacking Kubota when he had surrendered to him (which makes it a completely different situation than the one to Tarquin). Instead, he acted in a mature, if heartbreaking fashion. As I said, this is completely different to the situation with Tarquin, since there was no one to arrest Tarquin to.

So Elan can be mature when the situation calls for it. Is he always? Well, I think most of us would think he had an exceptional set of circumstances here. And one that has been debated and analyzed ad-nasuem. :smallwink:

[Tazar]

Elan is not designed to make the story end quickly ad efficiently. He's designed to make the story longer and funnier.

Unfortunately, I've found him to be fairly quite spectacularly at that as of late. Particularly in the humor department.

There are other ways to prolong the story that don't revolve around Elan acting like a moron all the time; Rich is a very good writer and I'm sure he has other ways of doing so.

@ Porthos-And yet, despite all those (admittedly mature) moments, Elan's overall character fails to be affected in any way.

I'm not saying he doesn't have periods of maturity; he certainly does. But they are fleeting at best and do not bear any impact on his long-term personalities; he still doesn't consider the ramifications of his actions in any capacity. What I want is some meaningful and lasting character development for him.

[Avaris]

His reactions in the Therkla Arc was basically "Oh, you were a nice girl who like me, that means that you are good. Guaranteed." Oh, and he learned how to be sarcastic. So maybe he's progressed closer to being a total jerk. :smallwink:

Also, there doesn't seem much to the Elan-Haley relation ship besides "Hurr we are sooooo in love, we are nice to each other and hold hands and screw. Alot." If you'll forgive the comparison, doesn't twilight get a load of flak for having shallow relationships built entirely around sex?

The Therkla arc shows (in my opinion at least) how wrong you are on these two statements. If Elan's relationship with Haley was just about sex, would it have survived the long seperation and introduction of a rival that Elan liked? I don't think it would have done; Elan and Haley's relationship is strong because despite everything they hve been through (and are currently going through) they are still together. If you want a relationship where sex could be seen as the main objective, I'd possibly look at Roy and Celia, as they progressed to that stage far quicker.

If you consider Elan/Haley to be shallow and built entirely around sex, you are ignoring about 2/3s of the entire comic to date, where they either hadn't admitted their feelings for each other (the first 400 strips) or were apart from each other (485 to 646). Given that time frame, I think its understandable behaving as they do now, and even then they are spending plenty of time apart. The difference is of course that we don't directly see that time, as the characters are more interesting when interacting with each other.

As for Elan's character development, if you ignore today's incident (which is a shout out to a far earlier strip, so acceptable), he has become far more competant, largely due to his love for Haley. The Elan at the start of the strip was naive and unaware of other character's feelings for him, and was quite happy to roll with anything that came his way. That Elan would not have had the initiative to escape from jail to save the woman he loves in strip 387; he would have carried on lamenting about how life wasn't fair... instead he became a protagonist in his own right. That Elan would have also given up on ever seeing Haley again, and would have likely ended up with Therkla quite quickly. That Elan would also not have had the courage to face his father.

Edit: Man this thread moves quickly...

[Tazar]

Keep in mind that the entire arc with Nale replacing Elan was entirely due to Elan's presence in the OotS in the first place. If Elan hadn't been there Haley would have been in zero danger.

The fact that he managed to escape just in time redeems him somewhat, but the fact remains that he was entirely responsible for placing the OotS in danger that time, and he failed pretty badly at stopping his brother.

[Nimrod's Son]

Expecting someone who was brain-damaged as an infant to stop "acting like an idiot" altogether seems a bit unrealistic to me. And anyone who can't see the progress that Elan has made - most notably through DStP and the current book - is obviously not paying enough attention.

And as Porthos said, the only thing he did wrong in this strip was to roll low, which could happen to anyone at any time.


And yet, despite all those (admittedly mature) moments, Elan's overall character fails to be affected in any way.
Um... "all those (admittedly mature) moments" are PART of Elan's character. That's like saying, "Despite all the many good things he does, he's still an utter bastard who does nothing but evil".

[BridgeCity]

Again, because by reading the posts here most of you seem to have missed it. We are not against Elan being funny - we have stated that many times. We are against Elan not overcoming his dangerous stupidity.

Elan can be funny AND not constantly put the team in danger, and this far into the comic I feel he should be there.

I personally don't find Elan funny at the moment, but that is because I think Rich is writting (and rehashing) lame jokes for him. I want Elan to be funny, so please stop acting as though we are trying to "kill off" the humour. We just want him to be funny AND competent, because it is about time he grew up in that sense.

Not his maturity, his ability.

[Porthos]

Unfortunately, I've found him to be fairly quite spectacularly at that as of late. Particularly in the humor department.

There are other ways to prolong the story that don't revolve around Elan acting like a moron all the time; Rich is a very good writer and I'm sure he has other ways of doing so.

And other people hate Durkon (boring, never develops) and Belkar (sociopath) for precisely the same reasons.

But it'd be a boring ol' forum if we all agreed. :smalltongue:



@ Porthos-And yet, despite all those (admittedly mature) moments, Elan's overall character fails to be affected in any way.

I'm not saying he doesn't have periods of maturity; he certainly does. But they are fleeting at best and do not bear any impact on his long-term personalities

Well, I've already given (ample, I thought) reasons for why his attitude in this arc might have been affected. Time will tell if this was a permanent regression. I tend to think it wasn't.

As for being impulsive.... Well this is :elan:. I doubt that will ever go away for good. :smallwink:

[Tazar]

Expecting someone who was brain-damaged as an infant to stop "acting like an idiot" altogether seems a bit unrealistic to me. And anyone who can't see the progress that Elan has made - most notably through DStP and the current book - is obviously not paying enough attention.

And as Porthos said, the only thing he did wrong in this strip was to roll low, which could happen to anyone at any time.


Um... "all those (admittedly mature) moments" are PART of Elan's character. That's like saying, "Despite all the many good things he does, he's still an utter bastard who does nothing but evil".

Again, my point is that those moments have no meaningful impact on his character; we don't see him acting differently because of those. The moment's there, then it's gone, and we're back to the Man-Child.

Hell, Elan practically lampshades this himself by talking about how he's supposedly grown and then doing the exact same thing he does in the early panels.

[Porthos]

Keep in mind that the entire arc with Nale replacing Elan was entirely due to Elan's presence in the OotS in the first place. If Elan hadn't been there Haley would have been in zero danger.

Oh come on now. That's like saying "the entire reason why OotS is having trouble with Xykon is because of the presence of Roy.":smalltongue:

If you're going to criticize Elan for being child-like, fine. But to blame him for Plot? That's a whole nudder thing altogher. :smallsmile:

[G-Man Graves]

And why?

Because he finally got something that he had been aching for decades.

That is a sign of character depth.

Depth, maybe. Perhaps I was hasty in labeling Elan as completely 2-D. Then again, "I want to meet daddy" is not exactly deep.



Furthermore, one of the whole points of the Therkla Arc was that Elan wouldn't throw away his relationship with Haley. After all, he had literally no idea if he would ever see Haley again. For all he knew, she was dead. But even though he was separated for months, and even though someone was literally throwing themselves at him, he stayed true to Haley.

Not only that, he was able to become friends with Therkla without it becoming Sexual. He was able to form an emotional attachment to another woman and still make sure that Haley was his One and Only.

First off, Characters aren't the only things with plot armor. Established relationships can have it too. On top of that, the fact that he managed to be "just friends" with the half orc is not a sign of development. Even calling them friends is a bit of a stretch, she wanted to get down, he said "No", and they worked together. Not exactly BFFs there. Just because he decided not to tap the sea green chick at the first opportunity doesn't mean that he's some paragon of virtue.



Also, he stood up to V.

This was a text book example of him being all "Only my definition of good, all the time!" Elan doesn't accept the fact that there are morally ambiguous actions that have good results. That's why he trys to carve a piece off his old man. That's why Haley has to justify cutting up Crystal. That's the reason he went off at V. Not because he's mature, but because he's not intelligent enough to accept alternatives to the way he would do things.

[Tazar]

Oh come on now. That's like saying "the entire reason why OotS is having trouble with Xykon is because of the presence of Roy.":smalltongue:

If you're going to criticize Elan for being child-like, fine. But to blame him for Plot? That's a whole nudder thing altogher. :smallsmile:

Not blaming him for it, just pointing out it's another example of him putting the party in danger due to his failure to contain his brother.

[Nimrod's Son]

Again, my point is that those moments have no meaningful impact on his character; we don't see him acting differently because of those. The moment's there, then it's gone, and we're back to the Man-Child.
Except, as you yourself have conceded, there have been *a lot* of those moments. And all evidence suggests they're becoming more frequent.

As I said, expecting him to lose his idiotic side altogether is just unrealistic, but if you can't see that he's gradually learning then you're not paying enough attention. A bad dice roll every now and again doesn't negate the progress he's making.

[Tazar]

Except, as you yourself have conceded, there have been *a lot* of those moments. And all evidence suggests they're becoming more frequent.

As I said, expecting him to lose his idiotic side altogether is just unrealistic, but if you can't see that he's gradually learning then you're not paying enough attention. A bad dice roll every now and again doesn't negate the progress he's making.

There really haven't been a lot, and again, he's not gradually learning.
His immediate reaction to Tarquin revealing that he's not entirely a good guy is "CLEAVE AND SMITE EVIL"; he doesn't try to talk him down, he doesn't try to understand why Tarquin is doing it, he doesn't think back on how he's seen that Evil people can be redeemed or have good motivations sometimes, just CLEAVE AND SMITE.

My issue isn't with a bad dice roll, it's with the fact that he just does not evolve as a character. All the mature moments in the world are meaningless if you don't derive anything from them, and he hasn't.

[Porthos]

Elan practically lampshades this himself by talking about how he's supposedly grown and then doing the exact same thing he does in the early panels.

I might put it:

Rich Burlew practically lampshades the fact that while the comic is supposedly grown up, it then does the exact same thing it did in the early strips. :smallwink:

Rich is poking fun at the notion that the comic is now a Serious Dramatic Strip.

I mean, he have seen a dramatic Shift In Tone ever since the Split the Part Arc (and in many ways, a Shift in Tone since the War for Azure City Arc). This is simply another case of Rich reminding the audience just what type of comic this is (at times).

[Tazar]

Except, it really is a heavily plot-driven strip at the moment. That's why I keep coming back to it, same with Erfworld; they both have humor, but it's the interesting plot and great characters that keep me interested.

I want Elan to be a great character, which is why it pains me that he simply will not change.

[BridgeCity]

Except, as you yourself have conceded, there have been *a lot* of those moments. And all evidence suggests they're becoming more frequent.

As I said, expecting him to lose his idiotic side altogether is just unrealistic, but if you can't see that he's gradually learning then you're not paying enough attention. A bad dice roll every now and again doesn't negate the progress he's making.

Except it wasn't just a bad dice roll. There was the attacking his father thing. There was the inability to see his father for what he was untill it was literally spelled out to him. That's three pretty major blunders in very quick succession, and it doesn't look like he is gradually learning, because nothing ever sticks.

[G-Man Graves]

I might put it:

Rich Burlew practically lampshades the fact that while the comic is supposedly grown up, it then does the exact same thing it did in the early strips. :smallwink:

Rich is poking fun at the notion that the comic is now a Serious Dramatic Strip.

I mean, he have seen a dramatic Shift In Tone ever since the Split the Part Arc (and in many ways, a Shift in Tone since the War for Azure City Arc). This is simply another case of Rich reminding the audience just what type of comic this is (at times).

Yet some how all the other characters can deal with the fact that they're in a serious strip now, but Elan can't.

Out of curiosity, why do you keep capitalizing random words in your sentences?

[Kish]

Oots's purpose is not meant to be a guide on how to build an efficient party, but as a humorous webcomic.
What's an "efficient party," anyway?

I'm continually mystified by people who seem to be under the impression that it's possible to win--or lose--D&D.

The answer to the question the OP seems to be implying, if not stating, is: Yes, some people still find Elan amusing. No, Rich is not going to get rid of him just because you're not one of those people. In fact I'd say he's second-least-likely of the Order not to make it to the end*, after only Roy.

*Second-least-likely only because he could leave the story somehow while alive; if dying was the only way to leave the story he'd be least likely.

[A Weeping Angel]

It also goes to show that despite having absurd levels of Charisma his luck itself doesn't always come through even in his dice rolls as well as other aspects. You could say that he is possibly one of the actually unluckiest characters in the comic. His brother, Therkla, and now his father being this way are not the greatest things to happen to a single character. He also has flashes like this early here: five panels from the end (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html). Besides as Tarquin and even he himself would say: it is the trope and genre conventions that they both live by and fulfill.
Not everyone advances and grows as individuals at the same rate in real life, let alone as created characters in a fictional web-comic.

[Porthos]

Depth, maybe. Perhaps I was hasty in labeling Elan as completely 2-D. Then again, "I want to meet daddy" is not exactly deep.

But it can be. And I tend to think it was at least a little subtle. Otherwise we wouldn't be having the debates on whether it existed or not.


Not exactly BFFs there. Just because he decided not to tap the sea green chick at the first opportunity doesn't mean that he's some paragon of virtue.

Strawman, table for one. :smalltongue:


First off, Characters aren't the only things with plot armor. Established relationships can have it too. On top of that, the fact that he managed to be "just friends" with the half orc is not a sign of development. Even calling them friends is a bit of a stretch, she wanted to get down, he said "No", and they worked together.

Except you yourself said that it was "all about sex". I attempted to show that it wasn't "all about sex".

And I tend to think that if something was only about sex, he would have gotten his nooky when the opprittuinity arose. Like he did in the Bandit Camp. :smallwink:


This was a text book example of him being all "Only my definition of good, all the time!" Elan doesn't accept the fact that there are morally ambiguous actions that have good results. That's why he trys to carve a piece off his old man. That's why Haley has to justify cutting up Crystal. That's the reason he went off at V. Not because he's mature, but because he's not intelligent enough to accept alternatives to the way he would do things.

Huh. Well if that's what you want to take away from the V/Elan confrontation, more power to you. But I tend to think that Rich was trying to show that V was acting a wee bit irresponsibly ("What is a Kubota!"), myself. :smallwink:

[Avaris]

T
His immediate reaction to Tarquin revealing that he's not entirely a good guy is "CLEAVE AND SMITE EVIL"; he doesn't try to talk him down, he doesn't try to understand why Tarquin is doing it, he doesn't think back on how he's seen that Evil people can be redeemed or have good motivations sometimes, just CLEAVE AND SMITE.



His first reaction was to try and save the people.

With that proving impossible, his second reaction was admittadly to challenge his father to a duel. However this was hardly putting the party in danger; Tarquin knew that he would do so, elan was just acting according to the laws of dramatics. Even then, the entire duel consisted of equal parts fighting and attempting to talk Tarquin down; he asked him to surrender remember? A Cleave and Smite character would never allow themselves to be defeated and then listen to their foe's explanations.

[Tazar]

It also goes to show that despite having absurd levels of Charisma his luck itself doesn't always come through even in his dice rolls as well as other aspects. You could say that he is possibly one of the actually unluckiest characters in the comic. His brother, Therkla, and now his father being this way are not the greatest things to happen to a single character. He also has flashes like this early here: five panels from the end (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html). Besides as Tarquin and even he himself would say: it is the trope and genre conventions that they both live by and fulfill.
Not everyone advances and grows as individuals at the same rate in real life, let alone as created characters in a fictional web-comic.

Tarquin manages to transcend stereotypes, however; he's not just a mustachio-twirling villain.

Elan, unfortunately, does not overcome these stereotypes.

Acting "according to the laws of dramatics" is hardly an excuse; had Tarquin not been absurdly forgiving, Elan and the entire party very well could have suffered greatly for his hasty and thoroughly unconsidered actions.

Again, you'll note that he doesn't even attempt to understand why his father might possibly be doing what he's doing.

[G-Man Graves]

How was V acting irresponsibly? You don't need to a know a rabid wolf's name to shoot it. V, using the information available to him, decided that the target was probably a threat. And in a world where story telling conventions are as real as the laws of physics, he made the right choice. And then Elan goes off because he disagreed with an action that was the wrong kind of good. Just like he did with his father. And (presumably) Haley.

[BridgeCity]

. . . Huh. Well if that's what you want to take away from the V/Elan confrontation, more power to you. But I tend to think that Rich was trying to show that V was acting a wee bit irresponsibly ("What is a Kubota!"), myself. :smallwink:

The thing here is that if V had actualy had what seemed to her a completely responsible reason to do what she had done (which I'm pretty sure she did believe at the time) Elan would have reacted in the exact same way. He wasn't showing depth, he was showing that he believes in his way fully and will not compromise. Most, if not all, of the other characters have had to change their world view at least a little over the comic. Elan has not in this respect.

[Tazar]

What's really painful is Elan essentially saying to Tarquin, "You're not going to kill me? But you're Evil!"
You know who else was Evil, and didn't kill Elan when she had the chance? Therkla.
This pretty conclusively demonstrates that Elan has derived virtually no long-term lessons from Therkla's death. Therkla should have been a lesson to Elan that Evil is no more so a cut-and-dried thing than Good; instead, we see him sitting in front of his father with the same one-dimensional worldview he's always had.

The same goes for all of his other "mature moments"; zero long-term character development.

[Porthos]

Yet some how all the other characters can deal with the fact that they're in a serious strip now, but Elan can't.

My point is that they aren't in a (completely) Serious Strip now. Rich has even said that in commentary:

"... but in the end, this is still a comedy-adventure, not a drama"
- War and XPs

As for why some letters in my posts are capitalized? It's for emphasis. Less emphasis than bolding or underlining, perhaps, but still for emphasis. :smallsmile:

[Nimrod's Son]

There was the attacking his father thing.
Which was done in the heat of the moment when he was shaken to his very core by what Tarquin had just done. Much smarter people than Elan have done very stupid things under such circumstances.

Not that it had much (if any) of a negative effect anyway, since Tarquin has no interest in harming Elan.


There was the inability to see his father for what he was untill it was literally spelled out to him.
Porthos has already spoken at length about Elan's abandonment issues, so I won't bother going there again.


That's three pretty major blunders in very quick succession, and it doesn't look like he is gradually learning, because nothing ever sticks.
Looks to me more like one-and-a-bit major blunders, and one of them was down to a dice roll. And that's being generous: at the moment they've only got a couple of guards on their tail. It may turn out to be no real problem whatsoever.

And, once again, Elan was brain-damaged as a baby. He is never, ever, going to stop doing stupid things from time to time. But he's accepted his weaknesses, and is trying to overcome them. That's progress by itself.

[Porthos]

Again, you'll note that he doesn't even attempt to understand why his father might possibly be doing what he's doing.

And thank god for that.*

Tarquin is a monster, and completely unjustified in what he is doing. Even if you believed that his self-serving speeches reflect his true motivations.

* At least after the 200 ft sign of doom. :smallwink:


===

BTW: Isn't this an attempt to figure out why Tarquin is doing all of the things that he is doing? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) :smalltongue:

[BridgeCity]

What's really painful is Elan essentially saying to Tarquin, "You're not going to kill me? But you're Evil!"
You know who else was Evil, and didn't kill Elan when she had the chance? Therkla.
This pretty conclusively demonstrates that Elan has derived virtually no long-term lessons from Therkla's death. Therkla should have been a lesson to Elan that Evil is no more so a cut-and-dried thing than Good; instead, we see him sitting in front of his father with the same one-dimensional worldview he's always had.

This is pretty much it right here. People have been using the Therkla episode to show that Elan has grown, and yet here we are in the current strip with Elan demonstrating he took nothing away from that experience.

[G-Man Graves]

His first reaction was to try and save the people.

With that proving impossible, his second reaction was admittadly to challenge his father to a duel. However this was hardly putting the party in danger; Tarquin knew that he would do so, elan was just acting according to the laws of dramatics. Even then, the entire duel consisted of equal parts fighting and attempting to talk Tarquin down; he asked him to surrender remember? A Cleave and Smite character would never allow themselves to be defeated and then listen to their foe's explanations.


Here's the basic exchange between the two.

Elan: "Dad, you evil guy you! What the hell did you do that for?"
Tarquin: "Elan, what I do here is justified and necessary. Here is why."
Elan: *yells insults*
Tarquin: "Elan, bad things are occasionally necessary, but it's important to do so in an orderly fashion."
Elan: *ignoring his father's previous arguments* "Hurr hurr, genre conventions. CLEAVE AND SMITE."
Tarquin: *after soundly beating Elan* "Do you get what I'm saying now? Evil is not necessarily bad."
Elan: "No, I don't get it."

[Tazar]

And thank god for that.

Given that Tarquin is currently the party's only source of information regarding Girard's Gate, and also the de facto leader of the highly militant nation in which the party is currently staying, I can't see how simply charging him and trying to beat the crap out of him is a superior option to engaging him in a dialog.

[Mystic Muse]

How was V acting irresponsibly? You don't need to a know a rabid wolf's name to shoot it. V, using the information available to him, decided that the target was probably a threat. And in a world where story telling conventions are as real as the laws of physics, he made the right choice. And then Elan goes off because he disagreed with an action that was the wrong kind of good. Just like he did with his father. And (presumably) Haley.

It wasn't good by the D&D definition and Vaarsuvius had very little evidence that Kubota was evil. Vaarsuvius specifically says he killed Kubota because he happened to be tied up, and he had an evil looking mustache.

Here's the strip in question. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html

Here is the D&D definition of good: "Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings.

Elan even said that Kubota probably deserved it, and would have let it go had V had a better reasoning than "He happened to be tied up"

Now, I'm aware that the comic doesn't follow D&D alignment to the letter, but using real world alignment gets threads locked.

[Kish]

Tarquin manages to transcend stereotypes, however; he's not just a mustachio-twirling villain.
...Well no. He doesn't have a mustache. Other than that...

How was V acting irresponsibly? You don't need to a know a rabid wolf's name to shoot it.

You need to know something other than, "He said something about a trial, you had him tied up, and he had a Fu Manchu."

V, using the information available to him, decided that the target was probably a threat.

Funny thing. The spells he cast at Kubota didn't make Kubota probably dead and unresurrectable.


And then Elan goes off because he disagreed with an action that was the wrong kind of good.

Specifically, the kind of "good" that's spelled e-v-i-l.

Just like he did with his father.
...Oh wow. You just said that burning the slaves alive was the wrong kind of good. I'm guessing you meant something different.

I can flat guarantee you Elan will never change the aspects of his philosophy that say it's wrong to kill someone you know barely anything about because you figure he's probably a villain, or burn slaves alive. In other words: He will never turn into a monster. If you find that disappointing, oh well.

[BridgeCity]

Which was done in the heat of the moment when he was shaken to his very core by what Tarquin had just done. Much smarter people than Elan have done very stupid things under such circumstances.

That's my point. In the heat of the moment, when a more mature and grown up Elan should have been able to compose himself at least a little, he can't and makes a stupid mistake. This is the time Elan should have demonstrated his growth, not thrown it away.


Not that it had much (if any) of a negative effect anyway, since Tarquin has no interest in harming Elan.

Getting lucky with the outcome doesn't make the initial blunder any less dangerous.


Porthos has already spoken at length about Elan's abandonment issues, so I won't bother going there again.

Again, this is exactly where I would have expected Elan to show growth. We know he has been struggling with these issues, we have known for a long time, but he has come to rely on Roy and Haley, and suffered through the betrayel of his brother. I would have loved Elan to have pulled on those experiences so as to be happy with his father but wary or wise, not a complete blithering idiot again.


And, once again, Elan was brain-damaged as a baby. He is never, ever, going to stop doing stupid things from time to time. But he's accepted his weaknesses, and is trying to overcome them. That's progress by itself.

The whole brain damage thing was brought up once in one strip as a one time joke. Plenty of times on these boards that has been enough to outright dismiss taking an event seriously, and so I see no reason to believe this is actually what happened to Elan.

[Nimrod's Son]

You know who else was Evil, and didn't kill Elan when she had the chance? Therkla.
Nope. Rich has himself described Therkla as his "spokesperson for Neutrality".

[Porthos]

Given that Tarquin is currently the party's only source of information regarding Girard's Gate, and also the de facto leader of the highly militant nation in which the party is currently staying, I can't see how simply charging him and trying to beat the crap out of him is a superior option to engaging him in a dialog.

If Elan had simply "engaged him in dialogue" he would have the patience (and mercy) of a Saint.

Besides, as I noted above, Elan already tried to talk to him. And all he got was a bunch of self-serving garbage.

So Elan lost his cool there. So what? Is suspect the vast majority of people would have.

Besides, as I already pointed out, there is all of the mixed up emotions about Parental Abandonment. It is fairly easy to see, at least in my opinion, that Elan was repressing (and overcompensating) his emotions when it came to his father. We can even see the foreshadowing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). So when his father turned out to be the complete opposite of him and turned out to be far more dangerous than Nale could ever be, he snapped.

All of the repressed and overcompensating feelings flooded over him. As I said it would take someone of extremely stern stuff not to react in that situation.

So blame Elan for acting very human in that case seems to be bizarre to me. Sure, maybe it would have been better for all concerned if Elan didn't lose his cool. But it would have been completely out of character for most people in that situation, never mind Elan.

[G-Man Graves]

I can flat guarantee you Elan will never change the aspects of his philosophy that say it's wrong to kill someone you know barely anything about because you figure he's probably a villain, or burn slaves alive. In other words: He will never turn into a monster. If you find that disappointing, oh well.

I'm referring more to the fact that he can't accept that maybe a fascist government is the best option for the Western Continent. If that for the greater good is an "evil" concept, than maybe Tarquin is right about the alignment system.

[BridgeCity]

If Elan had simply "engaged him in dialogue" he would have the patience (and mercy) of a Saint.

Besides, as I noted above, Elan already tried to talk to him. And all he got was a bunch of self-serving garbage.

So Elan lost his cool there. So what? Is suspect the vast majority of people would have.

Besides, as I already pointed out, there is all of the mixed up emotions about Parental Abandonment. It is fairly easy to see, at least in my opinion, that Elan was repressing (and overcompensating) his emotions when it came to his father. We can even see the foreshadowing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). So when his father turned out to be the complete opposite of him and turned out to be far more dangerous than Nale could ever be, he snapped.

All of the repressed and overcompensating feelings flooded over him. As I said it would take someone of extremely stern stuff not to react in that situation.

So blame Elan for acting very human in that case seems to be bizarre to me. Sure, maybe it would have been better for all concerned if Elan didn't lose his cool. But it would have been completely out of character for most people in that situation, never mind Elan.

As I said, this would have been a perfect time to show this development Elan has supposedly had, instead we just get Elan the way he has always been. It is stale.

[Reverent-One]

I'm referring more to the fact that he can't accept that maybe a fascist government is the best option for the Western Continent. If that for the greater good is an "evil" concept, than maybe Tarquin is right about the alignment system.

Brutal repression, slavery, secret death squads? These all seem like reasonable things to do "for the greater good"?

[Tazar]

Nope. Rich has himself described Therkla as his "spokesperson for Neutrality".

Really? I mean, if he says so, but aren't assassins, y'know, evil? Hell, it's a requirement for the prestige class...

@Revrent-One-This isn't the thread for it, but it can certainly be argued that what Tarquin is doing is for the greater good. With far more brutality than is necessary, of course, but still.

[Cerlis]

He's the one who cheers people up and keeps people happy.

This.

Any tactician and leader would say this is one of the most valuable purposes in a group.

[Porthos]

I'm referring more to the fact that he can't accept that maybe a fascist government is the best option for the Western Continent. If that for the greater good is an "evil" concept, than maybe Tarquin is right about the alignment system.

I echo Kish in saying that he will never "accept" that.

[Reverent-One]

@Revrent-One-This isn't the thread for it, but it can certainly be argued that what Tarquin is doing is for the greater good. With far more brutality than is necessary, of course, but still.

Key words bolded.

[Nimrod's Son]

Again, this is exactly where I would have expected Elan to show growth. We know he has been struggling with these issues, we have known for a long time, but he has come to rely on Roy and Haley, and suffered through the betrayel of his brother. I would have loved Elan to have pulled on those experiences so as to be happy with his father but wary or wise, not a complete blithering idiot again.
Elan's slow, we all know that. It isn't going to change. But when the penny finally dropped, Rich had to invent a brand-new facial expression to show the full horror of his realisation. There's not a chance I'd swap that moment for the sake of showing that Elan has learned to reach natural conclusions faster.


The whole brain damage thing was brought up once in one strip as a one time joke. Plenty of times on these boards that has been enough to outright dismiss taking an event seriously, and so I see no reason to believe this is actually what happened to Elan.
You're free to disregard that if you think it helps your argument, but what we actually see in comic is Nale telling Elan he has no idea how they ended up with such a gap in their respective intellects, and then we get a flashback panel showing how it occurred. There's no more reason to believe it never happened than there is reason to believe Tarquin never tortured one of his exes into marrying him by encasing her feet in ice.

The fact that it only happened in one panel is irrelevant; it still happened, and there's never been any need whatsoever to expand on what was shown there.

[Tazar]

Key words bolded.

Brutal repression could actually be considered for the greater good, so yeah.

Again, not the thread for it. You want to argue about it, take it somewhere else.

I'm also really curious as to how Therkla is Neutral.

[G-Man Graves]

Brutal repression, slavery, secret death squads? These all seem like reasonable things to do "for the greater good"?

Um, yeah. As opposed to say, the entire society collapsing because of endless war in the middle of a barely inhabitable desert? I would say that it is the greater good.

[Porthos]

but it can certainly be argued that what Tarquin is doing is for the greater good.

You know, a certain phrase about Good and Evil comes to mind here.

Oh yes:

Vimes had heard that good and evil were just two ways of looking at the same thing - or, at least, so said people traditionally considered under the category of "evil". :smalltongue:

===

And while it can be argued that Tarquin is right, one would actually have to take what he says at face value.

Strangely enough, taking Tarquin at face value hasn't been the wisest of options for people. :smalltongue:

I am absolutely convinced that the whole "People will have a better life here. Honest." is completely besides the point when it comes to Tarquin's motivations.

In fact I would even go as far as to say that he only believes in that argument in and an as much as he can use it to convince other people that they should join him. You know, the whole "The World Will Be Much Safer Under (My) Order" thing that Cliched Villains have said since Time Immemorial?

They very rarely mean it, you know. :smallwink:

[Reverent-One]

Um, yeah. As opposed to say, the entire society collapsing because of endless war in the middle of a barely inhabitable desert? I would say that it is the greater good.

Except it's no better off in the end. Still lots of pain and death. Only it's now orderly pain and death. Tarquin's goal isn't to help people, but conquer the continent. Providing "order" is how he justifies it, though I'm sure it's true enough that he thinks his way is better, since he is Lawful Evil after all.

[Cerlis]

question. If one already dislikes Elan's character and type of humor and the entirety of why he was originally put in the comic, how can one make an unbiased opinion about him....at all?

[Tazar]

Guys, this thread is not to discuss the moral ramifications of Tarquin's actions; we've beaten that horse to death already. Take it somewhere else.

Cerlis, no opinion about any character in this comic from any user is going to be unbiased.

[Kish]

Really? I mean, if he says so, but aren't assassins, y'know, evil? Hell, it's a requirement for the prestige class...

Her class was ninja, not assassin.

Brutal repression could actually be considered for the greater good, so yeah.

Again, not the thread for it. You want to argue about it, take it somewhere else.
If you want to quit arguing the point, how about you, you know, quit arguing the point? Instead of making a preposterous, horrific assertion repeatedly and following it with "and don't argue with me here"?

[Tazar]

Ah, alright; she was still serving in an assassin function, however, and I don't really see how (presumably) getting paid to kill innocents is Neutral.

[Zevox]

Um, yeah. As opposed to say, the entire society collapsing because of endless war in the middle of a barely inhabitable desert? I would say that it is the greater good.
There's a name for that kind of argument: a false dichotomy. Brutal oppression and complete anarchy are not the only two options available, by any stretch of the imagination. It would be easy for Tarquin to end things like slavery or his "justice" system that exists solely to ensure the conviction of everyone accused of anything, and that would certainly not result in the collapse of his empire. He simply doesn't care about being a good ruler, only about living like a god for as long as he can.

Zevox

[Tazar]

Guys, again, this is severely off-topic; please create another thread for it if you want to debate Tarquin's alignment again.

[BridgeCity]

Her class was ninja, not assassin.

If you want to quit arguing the point, how about you, you know, quit arguing the point? Instead of making a preposterous, horrific assertion repeatedly and following it with "and don't argue with me here"?

Kish, if you feel that is what is happeneing then don't make it worse, take the high ground and stop arguing about it.


There's a name for that kind of argument: a false dichotomy. Brutal oppression and complete anarchy are not the only two options available, by any stretch of the imagination. It would be easy for Tarquin to end things like slavery or his "justice" system that exists solely to ensure the conviction of everyone accused of anything, and that would certainly not result in the collapse of his empire. He simply doesn't care about being a good ruler, only about living like a god for as long as he can.

Zevox

Please don't come in to a thread obviously intended to discuss Elan and weigh in on Tarquins allignment. It is disruptive and off topic.

As for the real topic, I still feel it all boils down to the fact that Elan has gone through a number of occasions in which he has apparently learned a valuable lesson in not behaving like a moron, and then when he gets to a point in time when those lessons would have been well used, he reverts back to the same old Elan. You can come up with as many arguments as you want, the fact is he had the chance to show growth in this area and he didn't. I take that as a pretty big indication that his growth is incredibly minimal or non-existant.

[Porthos]

Ah, alright; she was still serving in an assassin function, however, and I don't really see how (presumably) getting paid to kill innocents is Neutral.

Probably in the same way killing slaves and having a fascistic government is for the greater good. :smallsmile:

...

Cheap shot, but there you are. :smallwink:

====

In a much more serious vein, I would point out that Therkla changed over the course of the storyline. And if she was evil at the beginning (and I tend to think she was) she might not have been at the end.

She changed her outlook over those 100 someodd strips. Enough to change her alignmnet? Well I tend to think so. But YMMV, of course. :smallsmile:

[Cerlis]

@ Porthos-And yet, despite all those (admittedly mature) moments, Elan's overall character fails to be affected in any way.

I'm not saying he doesn't have periods of maturity; he certainly does. But they are fleeting at best and do not bear any impact on his long-term personalities; he still doesn't consider the ramifications of his actions in any capacity. What I want is some meaningful and lasting character development for him.

I know it is -egads- a 2 page old post (so what? 20 seconds old?) but that IS the character development. we are getting Character development and "Chaotic with 8 or less intelligence score" confused.

Its actually kinda crazy. its like getting mad at a mentally handicapped person for having trouble with a college that does nothing to help the person along.

[Tazar]

Except, hey, I'm not debating that Tarquin is Evil; he certainly is. It's more so just the degree to which he is. :smalltongue:
I do agree that she could have been Neutral at the end, which is what I'm thinking, as I don't see how she could be considered Neutral when we first meet her.

Cerlis, if you can cite me an example of Elan drawing upon a past lesson and thus acting differently from how he would normally, I will concede the point to you. Because I sure as heck can't find any, and his most recent encounter with Tarquin exemplifies this.

[CrimsonAngel]

To question Elan is to question the Giant.

[Tazar]

To question Elan is to question the Giant.

Well, yes it is, and that's a bad thing how?

This isn't a cult where we all worship Rich and everything he does, we're perfectly entitled to express our opinion if we feel a character is being taken in a direction we don't like.

[BridgeCity]

To question Elan is to question the Giant.

I see no problem with questioning Rich.

[Cerlis]

Keep in mind that the entire arc with Nale replacing Elan was entirely due to Elan's presence in the OotS in the first place. If Elan hadn't been there Haley would have been in zero danger.

and this is blaming Elan for existing. Its not his fault his father is a monster and his brother is a psychotic egomaniac.

[Tazar]

and this is blaming Elan for existing. Its not his fault his father is a monster and his brother is a psychotic egomaniac.

Well, y'know, not so; there was the matter of Elan letting Nale escape at the end of their first encounter. I worded my post poorly.

[BridgeCity]

Well, y'know, not so; there was the matter of Elan letting Nale escape at the end of their first encounter. I worded my post poorly.

Also, the experience with Nale, twice, should have made Elan more wary of his father. Not outright suspicious, but he knew this man raised Nale.

[CrimsonAngel]

Well, yes it is, and that's a bad thing how?

This isn't a cult where we all worship Rich and everything he does, we're perfectly entitled to express our opinion if we feel a character is being taken in a direction we don't like.

It's a cult to me! :smallfrown:

[Mando Knight]

Therkla arc:
Elan comes to realize that being Evil doesn't necessarily make you a bad person/irredeemable/whatever.

Current arc:
Elan: CLEAVE AND SMITE EVIL

That's actually quite inaccurate. Notice that he held on for so long to the notion that his dad was an OK person despite his villainous qualities, right up until the point where he realized Tarquin really was Evil with a capital E, which was literally with 200-foot-tall (well, maybe only 30 or so) burning letters, made from the bodies of rebellious slaves. Therkla was a confused character with a troubled past and a crush on Elan, but Tarquin is a ruthless dictator manipulating nearly an entire continent into slowly falling under his iron fist and systematically crushing all resistance.

Being nice to Therkla is an Elan thing to do because a guy like him believes in the innate goodness of a character that wants to be with him, especially when she's not against some kind of redemption. Stopping Tarquin is an Elan thing to do because he's a big meany-head who hurts a lot of innocent people and doesn't feel bad about it one bit.

[Tazar]

My point is that the very fact the "Elan thing to do" hasn't changed is a serious problem. Elan's actions make perfect sense when weighed against his character; the issue I'm arguing is that Elan's character hasn't changed meaningfully in any way.

[BridgeCity]

That's actually quite inaccurate. Notice that he held on for so long to the notion that his dad was an OK person despite his villainous qualities, right up until the point where he realized Tarquin really was Evil with a capital E, which was literally with 200-foot-tall (well, maybe only 30 or so) burning letters, made from the bodies of rebellious slaves. Therkla was a confused character with a troubled past and a crush on Elan, but Tarquin is a ruthless dictator manipulating nearly an entire continent into slowly falling under his iron fist and systematically crushing all resistance.

Being nice to Therkla is an Elan thing to do because a guy like him believes in the innate goodness of a character that wants to be with him, especially when she's not against some kind of redemption. Stopping Tarquin is an Elan thing to do because he's a big meany-head who hurts a lot of innocent people and doesn't feel bad about it one bit.

The fact that he held on so long to the notion of his father being good is actually one of our reasons for thinking Elan is still just stupid, so it doesn't work in your favour with me.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm also really curious as to how Therkla is Neutral.
Okay, here's Rich expanding on that point, from DStP:


In many ways, I see Therkla a sort of spokesperson for Neutrality. Not only the sort of Neutrality that looks out for their own interests above all else, but the sort that sees a need for balance. Therkla isn't actively involved in keeping that balance, but it is her instinct to seek it. When the feces hits the fan, her solution is for the Evil people to go over here and the Good people to go over there, and everyone just chill. She can't understand each side's need to defeat the other. In her world, everyone would just respect each other's alignment preferences and that would be that.

Another nice quote, regarding how Therkla's death affected Elan, is found later on the same page:


The death of Therkla also catalyzed the break-up of the party by giving Elan something to which he was emotionally attached, and about which Vaarsuvius felt nothing. [...] It's pretty clear that while Elan would never have agreed with V's method [of ending the Kubota threat], he would have eventually gotten over it. But Therkla was a different story; when V denigrates her so soon after her death - a death Elan feels that he could have prevented - a line is crossed. Elan, who once dressed up as a wizard to be more like Vaarsuvius, wants nothing more to do with him/her. His loyalty to V is broken in that moment, and V leaves soon thereafter.

[CrimsonAngel]

Well gosh... I guess you should repress all of the Elan-based memories you've obtained reading this comic...

I actually wish more people were like Elan. He's sweet, helpfull, and kind.

Also, he really wanted a dad. I think spending all your life without a father and then finding him int the desert would make you oblivious to a few things. Like a tail, for example. Or a dictatorship.

[Swordpriest]

I'm referring more to the fact that he can't accept that maybe a fascist government is the best option for the Western Continent. If that for the greater good is an "evil" concept, than maybe Tarquin is right about the alignment system.

Um, by that reasoning, there are no villains ever, and Xykon is the best hope for the world.

I mean, for God's sake, Tarquin just happily and gloatingly told him that he had just tortured 30 people to death for no other reason than to give him a "surprise" and because they dared to want to be free rather than being the slaves of a revolting dictatorship, and Elan is just supposed to shrug and say, "oh well, it's for the greater good because this human tapeworm next to me babbles a few relativist slogans, enjoy your slow deaths, guys! Yay Tarquin!"? That is character? That is maturity?

On top of that, Tarquin openly declares that he isn't doing it for the greater good. He's doing it so he can live like an emperor (greed) and be famed forever as a villain (vanity). He doesn't give a damn about any good. How can someone who rejects the concept of "good" work to achieve good in any way?

If Elan has to cringingly kow-tow to acts of the most barbaric, loathsome evil -- torture, murder, slavery, death squads, execution for people who don't have their papers in order, a ruler who literally eats people, a dinner made up of organs removed from living sapients -- in order to achieve character development, then I'm glad he hasn't had any.

However, he has had plenty of development. He upbraided V for his moral decline, he got himself out of prison and saved Haley's life (remember, Nale was about to drive a dagger into her heart, and saying that "she wouldn't have been in danger if Elan didn't have a brother" is honestly the most specious condemnation of any character that I've heard, even on this forum"), went from being an irresponsibly promiscuous person (see bandit camp) to having a stable long-term relationship in spite of separation and temptation, and so on. If you can't see it, I think you're blinding yourself to the character's development because of your hatred for him.

I don't get how people don't get that the thing with the "I rolled a 4 (or 9)" is a joke riffing off the D&D thing of the best laid plan being spoiled by a single die roll.

Finally, to answer your question, "Why is Elan even around?", it's because he's their friend. This isn't an optimized MMORPG raid -- it gives a more living comic if the people in it accept their friends despite their foibles, rather than just keeping track of each other on some kind of "Useful/Not Useful" scale like V's "Lust/Hate" thing for Belkar.

[Porthos]

Finally, to answer your question, "Why is Elan even around?", it's because he's their friend. This isn't an optimized MMORPG raid -- it gives a more living comic if the people in it accept their friends despite their foibles, rather than just keeping track of each other on some kind of "Useful/Not Useful" scale like V's "Lust/Hate" thing for Belkar.

Well said. :smallsmile:

[Cerlis]

Except, hey, I'm not debating that Tarquin is Evil; he certainly is. It's more so just the degree to which he is. :smalltongue:
I do agree that she could have been Neutral at the end, which is what I'm thinking, as I don't see how she could be considered Neutral when we first meet her.

Cerlis, if you can cite me an example of Elan drawing upon a past lesson and thus acting differently from how he would normally, I will concede the point to you. Because I sure as heck can't find any, and his most recent encounter with Tarquin exemplifies this.


How bout his recent encounter with Tarquinn. In which he used Therkla as an example of how he knows sometimes trying to do the right thing can cause you to make a mistake that makes it worse?

I mean there are like 2 or 3 pages of him trying to Understand his fathers reasons and try to accept it or argue against his father and his dad just keeps throwing how evil he is in Elans face (accidentally)


Well, y'know, not so; there was the matter of Elan letting Nale escape at the end of their first encounter. I worded my post poorly.

Isnt that like, the entire party's screw up? Elan's only flaws in that where not executing his brother, and getting stabbed in the liver

[BridgeCity]

. . . Finally, to answer your question, "Why is Elan even around?", it's because he's their friend. This isn't an optimized MMORPG raid -- it gives a more living comic if the people in it accept their friends despite their foibles, rather than just keeping track of each other on some kind of "Useful/Not Useful" scale like V's "Lust/Hate" thing for Belkar.

If I had a friend I loved dearly, but who was unsuited to the incredibly dangerous task we were undertaking and whose ineptitude was putting my other friends as well as themselves at risk, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try to get them to stay somewhere where they would be safe and out of harm's way.

That's how I would treat a good friend: not allowing them to endanger themselves and others if they were not up to the task at hand.

[Porthos]

If I had a friend I loved dearly, but who was unsuited to the incredibly dangerous task we were undertaking and whose ineptitude was putting my other friends as well as themselves at risk, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try to get them to stay somewhere where they would be safe and out of harm's way.

That's how I would treat a good friend: not allowing them to endanger themselves and others if they were not up to the task at hand.

But he is up to the task at hand. The rest of the team even marvelled at the point that he became (semi-)competent. :smallsmile:

[BridgeCity]

But he is up to the task at hand. The rest of the team even marvelled at the point that he became (semi-)competent. :smallsmile:

When dealing with the fate of the world, I do not count semi-competant as up to the task. As I've said, I feel he shouldn't have attacked Tarquin like that, he should have seen him for what he was etc. Elan, as he is now, is not up to the task.

[Forum Explorer]

The thing here is that if V had actualy had what seemed to her a completely responsible reason to do what she had done (which I'm pretty sure she did believe at the time) Elan would have reacted in the exact same way. He wasn't showing depth, he was showing that he believes in his way fully and will not compromise. Most, if not all, of the other characters have had to change their world view at least a little over the comic. Elan has not in this respect.

I haven't read through all of this thread so I may have missed some good points but here's my two CPs on the matter.

In that situation as I recall Elan actrually didn't really get angry with V until she/he remarked on the fact that Therka had died with nothing more than "Does this mean we won't get any XP for defeating her?" Before that he was shocked and upset that V could callusoly kill an unarmed prisoner but wasn't any worse than pretty much anything Belkar did in his eyes.

I think that Elan has changed, over the last arc he's regressed as he's been partying his his father and thinking that Tarquin would be part of his happy ending. He did initially try to understand Tarquin's veiwpoint with the betrayal of the city of Doom and why he had been abandoned and all of that. It was only when Tarquin did something that was unredemably evil (burning prisoners alive for nothing more than a message to his son) that Elan started to fight him. He did ask him to surrender and got smacked down pretty bad by Tarquin anyways. (Off topic but I think Tarquin was trying to get that response out of Elan, I mean its not very dramatic to get defeated by a random peasant while your long lost protaganist son is around)

In the latest comic it wasn't really his hijinks that got them into trouble, I mean imagine if that instead Elan tripped over a bell or something noisy instead. He did try a beliveable bluff that Haley went along with which would have worked if Tarquin hadn't read the Evil Overlord list.

[CrimsonAngel]

If I had a friend I loved dearly, but who was unsuited to the incredibly dangerous task we were undertaking and whose ineptitude was putting my other friends as well as themselves at risk, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try to get them to stay somewhere where they would be safe and out of harm's way.

That's how I would treat a good friend: not allowing them to endanger themselves and others if they were not up to the task at hand.

The way you describe him, he'd find a way to blow himself up accidentaly. :smallfrown:

[G-Man Graves]

Finally, to answer your question, "Why is Elan even around?", it's because he's their friend. This isn't an optimized MMORPG raid -- it gives a more living comic if the people in it accept their friends despite their foibles, rather than just keeping track of each other on some kind of "Useful/Not Useful" scale like V's "Lust/Hate" thing for Belkar.

Um, well, considering that they are on a quest of literally universal importance, maybe a little optimizing wouldn't hurt. Send Elan home to mommy, hire a grade A ass kicker, save the world, and then go and hang our with your friend. Being friends with someone shouldn't be based around their abilities, but saying that "They should lessen their odds of success by lugging their dead weight friend around" is simply ridiculous.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

The funny thing is that since you guys use the incident between Elan and Tarquins as evidence of Elan not having any character growth it's quite fitting to bring up exactly how bad the things Tarquin was doing is.

It makes Elans reaction human, good and character development or not, the right thing for him to do.

And that's why you had to defend Tarquins alignemt. If what he is doing is wrong, then Elan is right.

Funny, it's just like Kubota and V. Just that in that case you defend the one who killed the bad guy. Now you are attacking the one who tried to stop the bad guy.

[Ridureyu]

By that logic, the whole party should quit and hire a bunch of optimized level 20s to finish it for them.

[Swordpriest]

If I had a friend I loved dearly, but who was unsuited to the incredibly dangerous task we were undertaking and whose ineptitude was putting my other friends as well as themselves at risk, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try to get them to stay somewhere where they would be safe and out of harm's way.

That's how I would treat a good friend: not allowing them to endanger themselves and others if they were not up to the task at hand.

And saving Haley's life on his own initiative means absolutely nothing? His capture of Kubota? His contribution in the beetle fight?

If losing fights as well as winning them means he's too incompetent to contribute, then the whole Order might as well go home right now. See, for example, Roy vs. Xykon, V vs. Xykon, Haley vs. Tsukiko, V vs. Mother Dragon, etc. There are none of them who are "ever-victorious".

[BridgeCity]

The way you describe him, he'd find a way to blow himself up accidentaly. :smallfrown:

Sort of like pressing a self destruct button for the castle he is currently in?


And saving Haley's life on his own initiative means absolutely nothing? His capture of Kubota? His contribution in the beetle fight?

If losing fights as well as winning them means he's too incompetent to contribute, then the whole Order might as well go home right now. See, for example, Roy vs. Xykon, V vs. Xykon, Haley vs. Tsukiko, V vs. Mother Dragon, etc. There are none of them who are "ever-victorious".

All I have to say to you is you are yet another person who has ignored what I've actually been saying and started harping on about his emotional development. I really can't be bothered writting it all out again so you can re-read my posts if you care.

[CrimsonAngel]

^Possibly.


Um, well, considering that they are on a quest of literally universal importance, maybe a little optimizing wouldn't hurt. Send Elan home to mommy, hire a grade A ass kicker, save the world, and then go and hang our with your friend. Being friends with someone shouldn't be based around their abilities, but saying that "They should lessen their odds of success by lugging their dead weight friend around" is simply ridiculous.

He's a bard, he'd break through the very first window the rest of the party was near... dramatically.

[Mystic Muse]

Um, well, considering that they are on a quest of literally universal importance, maybe a little optimizing wouldn't hurt. Then they should kick out Belkar too since he's about the least optimized Ranger I've ever seen.

[G-Man Graves]

But he is up to the task at hand. The rest of the team even marvelled at the point that he became (semi-)competent. :smallsmile:

Let me get this straight. You think that the fact that the team was SURPRISED that he was no longer a COMPLETE liability is a GOOD thing? I would find that to be evidence that he is nothing more than a useless load.

[BridgeCity]

Then they should kick out Belkar too since he's about the least optimized Ranger I've ever seen.

The OP specifically asked for this to not become about "well they should also kick out . . ." This is about Elan's usefulness to the group.

[Cerlis]

Sort of like pressing a self destruct button for the castle he is currently in?



All I have to say to you is you are yet another person who has ignored what I've actually been saying and started harping on about his emotional development. I really can't be bothered writting it all out again so you can re-read my posts if you care.


well actually I think your point was made in the last page and a half.

And luckily Elan's hitting the self destruct button did nothing but kill any evil monsters left in the mountian and prevented RC and Xykon from just waiting a day and coming back for the gate.

[CrimsonAngel]

Let me get this straight. You think that the fact that the team was SURPRISED that he was no longer a COMPLETE liability is a GOOD thing? I would find that to be evidence that he is nothing more than a useless load.

WAS a useless load. "No longer a complete liability," your own words.

[HalfTangible]

Did anyone else notice that Elan hasn't sung a song to fight since the 'Enact the daring escape scene' thing in Azure City's escape?

And that recently he's using spells where appropriate rather than falling back on his sword? (pun not intended) (ie, lesser confusion and neutralize poison)

And that he fights with puns since he got that level in dashing swordsman?

And that the chance that this arc will cause him to develop his character is fairly high?

And that every character in the history of 'character' has had at least one person who disliked them, no matter how cool he/she is?

And that every member of the OotS has been criticized of lacking character development at some point or another?

[Nimrod's Son]

Elan, as he is now, is not up to the task.
I can all but guarantee you that Elan's incompetence won't prevent the Order from successfully completing their quest, and I can well believe that Elan will have at least one moment of utter heroism along the way too, so I have to disagree. His improvement started long ago and I see no reason that it won't continue.

It may well be a very gentle curve, though, but we should expect that by now, really. Expecting him to go from clueless, physically-inept buffoon to all-round worldbeater in a flash is being a little hard on the poor guy.

[BridgeCity]

WAS a useless load. "No longer a complete liability," your own words.

His own words showing that Elan is not a completel liability, but is still part liability. He is still not someone you want on such an important mission.

[G-Man Graves]

WAS a useless load. "No longer a complete liability," your own words.

Congratulations, Elan, you can now do what the rest of the party could do seven levels ago. But don't expect to be able to kill a large number of enemies without Haley bailing you out again.


Then they should kick out Belkar too since he's about the least optimized Ranger I've ever seen.

Belkar is good at what they hired him to do, track and kill things. He wasn't always good at tracking, but he seems to have improved, and he just keeps getting better as punching enemies full of holes. Cool changing the context of my words, though.

[Jay R]

I remember when people were asking when Harry and Ron would read Hogwarts: a History. The answer was that they were never going to read it, so that Hermione could explain plot elements to us, by explaining them to Ron and Harry.

Gilligan exists so the Professor can explain what he's doing, and to stumble over the plot. Andy Taylor is a good, competent sheriff, and so the comedy comes from his bumbling deputy Barney Fife.

Similarly, Elan is a low Intelligence character for the express purpose of plot exposition, made explicit by the fact that Elan himself talks about the importance of good plot exposition.

It's too easy to agree with Roy that Elan is more of an obstacle that this team overcomes on a regular basis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html). And if competence were the only measure of a man, that might even be reasonable. Traveling with Elan is kind of like, say, adventuring with syphilis. It can be done, for a while, but it's not fun, and it's not pretty. But he has proven his loyalty on many occasions, and they should not discard their hard-earned friendship with him so carelessly.

He's not immature, expected to mature soon. His relationship with Therkla shows maturity, on the low-intelligence level. He's not lacking in knowledge, to be changed with education. he has shown a thorough knowledge of plot elements. He has low Intelligence. That doesn't change.

"A sinner can repent, but stupid is forever."
-- Billy Sunday

[Mystic Muse]

The OP specifically asked for this to not become about "well they should also kick out . . ." This is about Elan's usefulness to the group.

Sorry. However, if the OP wants that, he shouldn't make statements that can be applied equally well to other members of the party and should focus on what makes Elan specifically stand out as bad.

As far as I can tell from the story, he's no worse for the party than Belkar is.

[Boogastreehouse]

It's horribly inept because no other character does that, except for Elan; he makes a habit of these sort of things.

Belkar is still a ranger who can't track or make listen checks. Who's inept? At least Elan's good at bard-stuff.

Beyond that, Haley is still ridiculously greedy; she's just barely comfortable enough to consider sharing her hoard with the man she loves. She's been greedy since the beginning of the strip, and there are still jokes being made about it, so I guess she hasn't developed as a character either.

Elan is incompetent because some people are just incompetent! Likewise, Durkon is still boring, because some people are just boring. It's not like Durkon's going to develop out of being boring any time soon. Besides the party needs a boring straight man, and Durkon manages to be likable and entertaining, even when he's being a tedious, lawful good stick in the mud.


Also, it was not just today's strip. As was pointed out before (can't remember who by) attacking his father because it was the dramatically appropriate thing to do was not a smart move, and could have very possibly put the friends that he cares for so much in danger.

Oh my god, can you imagine how unfunny this strip would be if everyone always made the "smart move?" Besides, an appropriate emotional reaction kicks the "smart move" right out of the car without even slowing down.

I think that a lot of people on this thread are also confusing "competent action-hero" and "improved butt-kicker" with "character development."

[BridgeCity]

I can all but guarantee you that Elan's incompetence won't prevent the Order from successfully completing their quest, and I can well believe that Elan will have at least one moment of utter heroism along the way too, so I have to disagree. His improvement started long ago and I see no reason that it won't continue.

It may well be a very gentle curve, though, but we should expect that by now, really. Expecting him to go from clueless, physically-inept buffoon to all-round worldbeater in a flash is being a little hard on the poor guy.

I fail to see how you think expecting Elan to be further along than he is since comic 50, over 600 strips ago, is "in a flash." That is a silly statement to pretend I made.

[Swordpriest]

Well, they all lost to Miko.

Haley lost to Samantha, Tsukiko, Grubwiggler, and probably others.

V lost to the Mother Dragon, the Death Knight, Leeky Windstaff, and Xykon.

Roy lost to Xykon so badly he spent most of the comic in heaven.

Elan lost to Tarquin, Nale, and .... anyone else?

Guess they might as well boot all of themselves out, because none of 'em should be around if it takes unbroken wins to make them worth being there.

[BridgeCity]

Oh my god, can you imagine how unfunny this strip would be if everyone always made the "smart move?" Besides, an appropriate emotional reaction kicks the "smart move" right out of the car without even slowing down.

I think that a lot of people on this thread are also confusing "competent action-hero" and "improved butt-kicker" with "character development."

{{scrubbed}} You will notice on the first page I specifically state that I do not want them to always make the smart choice, and detail my argument there.


Sorry. However, if the OP wants that, he shouldn't make statements that can be applied equally well to other members of the party and should focus on what makes Elan specifically stand out as bad.

As far as I can tell from the story, he's no worse for the party than Belkar is.

Or you could respect the OP's wishes,
{{scrubbed}}


. . .

I know I haven't said they need unbroken wins, and I don't think anyone else has either.
{{scrubbed}}

[Logalmier]

I'm referring more to the fact that Elan can't accept that maybe a fascist government is the best option for the Western Continent. If that for the greater good is an "evil" concept, than maybe Tarquin is right about the alignment system.

Well, there is that whole burning people alive thing...

[Zevox]

As I've said, I feel he shouldn't have attacked Tarquin like that, he should have seen him for what he was etc.
I suspect you will be disappointed by the rest of the story, then, because I cannot see the rest of the party reacting to Tarquin any differently. If Tarquin doesn't get deposed by the end of this book, it will only be because the Order doesn't have the time to deal with him when the Gate is such a pressing matter. Personally though, my money would be on Tarquin being deposed or dead by the time the Order leaves the western continent.

Zevox

[HalfTangible]

Congratulations, Elan, you can now do what the rest of the party could do seven levels ago. But don't expect to be able to kill a large number of enemies without Haley bailing you out again.

Name me a PC who can kill enemies of a similar level in larger than maybe three or four without constant natural 20s.


Belkar is good at what they hired him to do, track and kill things. He wasn't always good at tracking, but he seems to have improved, and he just keeps getting better as punching enemies full of holes. Cool changing the context of my words, though.

In On The Origin of PCs, Belkar was hired ENTIRELY because he could track. Which he then showed utter and complete ineptitude at when asked if he had any ranks in survival.

In addition, Belkar has the senses of the half-blind muskrat that gnome tried to sell to Durkon (only worse) and if he hasn't put any with the (at least one) level(s) he's gained since he was hired as a tracker, it doesn't seem like he'd be bright enough to try it anyway.

[BridgeCity]

I suspect you will be disappointed by the rest of the story, then, because I cannot see the rest of the party reacting to Tarquin any differently. If Tarquin doesn't get deposed by the end of this book, it will only be because the Order doesn't have the time to deal with him when the Gate is such a pressing matter. Personally though, my money would be on Tarquin being deposed or dead by the time the Order leaves the western continent.

Zevox

Again Zevox, this thread is not about Tarquin. We are trying not to discuss him or his allignment, we are trying to discuss Elan's development.

[Porthos]

Elan, as he is now, is not up to the task.

Balderdash. :smallsmile:

His reaction with Tarquin was exceedingly understandable.

But if you want competancy, I give you (in reverse order):

He was competant in the Bug Fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html)

he was as competant as Kazumi in the fight on the boat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0589.html)

He saved their bacon when being chased by orcs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

He was able to hold his own in fights against Sea Trolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0506.html)

He's able to contribute in the fight in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html)

And he's able to kick Nale's butt on a one-on-one fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)

Is he hyper competant? Of course not. Are a lot of those contributions mitigated by things? Of course they are. But that describes almost all of the Order. Heck, most of the Order fails more often than they succeed.

Elan might have once only been useful for Bardic Magic. But now he can cast his spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html) in a way that helps the party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html) and he can help contribute in a fight.

Elan is far from useless. And that doesn't even get into the Heart and Soul of the Party argument.

[CrimsonAngel]

Well, they all lost to Miko.

Haley lost to Samantha, Tsukiko, Grubwiggler, and probably others.

V lost to the Mother Dragon, the Death Knight, Leeky Windstaff, and Xykon.

Roy lost to Xykon so badly he spent most of the comic in heaven.

Elan lost to Tarquin, Nale, and .... anyone else?

Guess they might as well boot all of themselves out, because none of 'em should be around if it takes unbroken wins to make them worth being there.

Replace them all with Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, the old spice guy, and the power rangers.

[Porthos]

I would find that to be evidence that he is nothing more than a useless load.

I think I just spent the better part of 20 minutes comprising a list of why he isn't a uselss load now. :smallwink:

[BridgeCity]

Balderdash. :smallsmile:

His reaction with Tarquin was exceedingly understandable.

But if you want competancy, I give you (in reverse order):

He was competant in the Bug Fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html)

he was as competant as Kazumi in the fight on the boat. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0589.html)

He saved their bacon when being chased by orcs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)

He was able to hold his own in fights against Sea Trolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0506.html)

He's able to contribute in the fight in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html)

And he's able to kick Nale's butt on a one-on-one fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)

Is he hyper competant? Of course not. Are a lot of those contributions mitigated by things? Of course they are. But that describes almost all of the Order. Heck, most of the Order fails more often than they succeed.

Elan might have once only been useful for Bardic Magic. But now he can cast his spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html) in a way that helps the party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html) and he can help contribute in a fight.

Elan is far from useless. And that doesn't even get into the Heart and Soul of the Party argument.

I disagree that they mitigate enough. You can believe what you want to, I'll believe what I want to.

[Swordpriest]

Well, there is that whole burning people alive thing...

But the great god Tarquin said that there's no good or evil, and he surely couldn't have any motivation for saying that other than immense personal purity and the highest intentions, so all crimes he commits are really proof that he's lawful good, except that good and evil don't exist because he says so!!!!!11eleven1!!! :smallamused:

[Mystic Muse]

Or you could respect the OP's wishes, and if you can't then perhaps just don't post here.


I will. I'm simply saying if the OP doesn't want that to happen, he shouldn't bring up flaws that apply equally well to other party members, because comparisons will probably be made regardless of whether the OP wants them to or not if he does that. This is evidenced by the fact other people did the same thing. I did it because I forgot that he brought that up in the first post and I apologize.

[BridgeCity]

I will. I'm simply saying if the OP doesn't want that to happen, he shouldn't bring up flaws that apply equally well to other party members, because comparisons will probably be made regardless of whether the OP wants them to or not if he does that. I did it because I forgot that he brought that up in the first post and I apologize.

Thats ok, but I would suggest that the reason he made that rule is because he knows they can make the same arguments, it is just that Belkar has been done to death, and he wanted to focus on Elan. I for one agree with you that if they kick Elan Belkar should follow, so it works on both sides of the arguement. Again, it was merely a rule to keep this about Elan.


But the great god Tarquin said that there's no good or evil, and he surely couldn't have any motivation for saying that other than immense personal purity and the highest intentions, so all crimes he commits are really proof that he's lawful good, except that good and evil don't exist because he says so!!!!!11eleven1!!! :smallamused:

please don't try to derail the thread into a Tarquin allignment debate.

[G-Man Graves]

Well, they all lost to Miko.

Haley lost to Samantha, Tsukiko, Grubwiggler, and probably others.

V lost to the Mother Dragon, the Death Knight, Leeky Windstaff, and Xykon.

Roy lost to Xykon so badly he spent most of the comic in heaven.

Elan lost to Tarquin, Nale, and .... anyone else?

Guess they might as well boot all of themselves out, because none of 'em should be around if it takes unbroken wins to make them worth being there.

Elan lost to two goblins. NOT impressive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html). Wanna know the difference between Elan's fights and the other's fights? The other's were taking on opponents that were much more powerful and experienced then they were, or, in V's case, immune to his magic. Elan lost to two. Pathetic. CR 1/2. Hobgoblins. That is disgusting. Level one heroes do better.


As far as I can tell from the story, he's no worse for the party than Belkar is.

PLEASE tell me this is a joke. Belkar has a body count in the hundreds, if not the thousands. He single handedly pulled Haley's ass out of the fire. He managed to hold his own against Miko. As for Elan... see the above, concerning hobgoblins.

[Swordpriest]

I disagree that they mitigate enough. You can believe what you want to, I'll believe what I want to.

Then the whole Order's trash, basically. They've all lost multiple times, often in stupid ways (see also Roy vs. Xykon). Elan's no better and no worse than the rest of them, from a competence standpoint, so to be fair, by your lights, they're all worthless for the situation they're in.

[Mystic Muse]

Also, if Tarquin and his alignment should stay out of this thread, I think people will need to stop bringing Elan's reaction to him up. It's kind of hard to discuss Elan's reaction to Tarquin without bringing up Tarquin or his alignment.

EDIT:

PLEASE tell me this is a joke. Belkar has a body count in the hundreds, if not the thousands. He single handedly pulled Haley's ass out of the fire. He managed to hold his own against Miko. As for Elan... see the above, concerning hobgoblins.

No it isn't. If you want to discuss this, PM me so we don't derail your thread.

[Zevox]

Again Zevox, this thread is not about Tarquin. We are trying not to discuss him or his allignment, we are trying to discuss Elan's development.
Considering the two are connected by the arguments you are making about what you feel Elan should have done, there is plenty of reason to discuss both. I thoroughly disagree with you about Elan (save that I don't really find him funny, but of course I never have), I just find this assertion that he should accept Tarquin's brutal rule the most utterly ridiculous of the ones that you are making. For Elan to do that would require that he become a completely different character in every way, practically the exact opposite of what he is. As someone else said, that would be character derailment, not character development.

Zevox

[BridgeCity]

Considering the two are connected by the arguments you are making about what you feel Elan should have done, there is plenty of reason to discuss both. I thoroughly disagree with you about Elan (save that I don't really find him funny, but of course I never have), I just find this assertion that he should accept Tarquin's brutal rule the most utterly ridiculous of the ones that you are making. For Elan to do that would require that he become a completely different character in every way, practically the exact opposite of what he is. As someone else said, that would be character derailment, not character development.

Zevox

Please Zevox, read the thread properly before you make statements like that. I never said Elan should have accepted his father's rule. I said he should have been smarter about how he handled it.


Then the whole Order's trash, basically. They've all lost multiple times, often in stupid ways (see also Roy vs. Xykon). Elan's no better and no worse than the rest of them, from a competence standpoint, so to be fair, by your lights, they're all worthless for the situation they're in.

Another hysterical statement, and if you read the whole thread again you'll find my arguments for exactly why I don't believe that is the case.

Anyway, it is pretty clear this has just become me repeating again and again the same things for new people, not fun anymore, so I'm going to take my leave.

Good discussion everyone :smallsmile:

[Nimrod's Son]

Send Elan home to mommy, hire a grade A ass kicker, save the world, and then go and hang our with your friend.
Thanks, but I don't want to read a comic about "Grade-A Ass Kickers" saving the world; there's more than enough of that macho tripe around already. I want to read about how the Order of the Stick manage to save the world, even though by looking at the odds they have no right to.

[Porthos]

I disagree that they mitigate enough. You can believe what you want to, I'll believe what I want to.

If Elan isn't competent in the party, then who is?

Roy is a straight fighter, and thus by definition "useless".

V is a Blaster Wizard, and a poorly designed one at that.

Belkar is someone who isn't eligible for half his Class Features, and he regularly forgets the other half.

Durkon, who by all rights should the most optimized of the group, barely contributes in most fights. And let's not even get into his problems with handling Undead.

The only person in the entire party that is mostly competent is Haley. And she is a rogue who specialized in bow attacks.

So we have, maybe, one and a half "competent" characters in the entire party that is "up to the task".

...

It's almost as if Rich was intentionally writing a story that featured an entire party of semi-competent PCs. :smalleek:

[CrimsonAngel]

Elan lost to two goblins. NOT impressive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html). Wanna know the difference between Elan's fights and the other's fights? The other's were taking on opponents that were much more powerful and experienced then they were, or, in V's case, immune to his magic. Elan lost to two. Pathetic. CR 1/2. Hobgoblins. That is disgusting. Level one heroes do better.

I have a feeling that was to make the note joke.

[G-Man Graves]

I have a feeling that was to make the note joke.

So let me get this one straight. When "Making a joke" goes in Elan's favor, we can say that "See, this means he's good", but if a joke makes him a useless loser, than it's "Oh, it's just a joke". Is that what you're saying?

In that case, Belkar doesn't have a negative wisdom modifier. It was stated in a humorous way, and hence has no lasting repercussions.

[Forum Explorer]

Elan as far as optimization goes isn't much worse than the rest of the party. Also for everyone saying that his reaction to Tarquin being EVIL was wrong look at Haley's reaction in the last two strips. She's flat out acting in her own self-intreast to save her father. She even admits it. While she's smart enough to not go after Tarquin she isn't smart enough to try and find a more subtle way of saving her father than an immediate break-out attempt. (Seriously why not grab V and get an invisiability and maximized silence spell?)

I think that the strips that most people seem to be complaining about instead shows that no matter how much you learn about the world when something hits you personally your going to react to it immediattly even if its a bad reaction. Its not a lack of development but rather a realistic approach to how people deal with unpleasant shocks.

Also this is an entirely new situation for Elan to deal with. Before it was a simple if they are evil than you should oppose them in either word or deed cause thats what the story demands. But not his father is challanging that view by outright saying that the evil guy wins in those situations and that Elan's naive view of good and evil is incorrect. Elan doesn't know what to do so he runs away. I'm intreasted in seeing how Elan changes from this whole experiance because dispite what you've been saying I have seen a change in how Elan behaves since the Therka arc. Its only recently with Tarquin showing up that he's regressed which appears to be temporary


(OK this seem to get very tangental and even conterdictory as I wrote it, but I can live with that :smallbiggrin:)

[Logalmier]

Um, well, considering that they are on a quest of literally universal importance, maybe a little optimizing wouldn't hurt. Send Elan home to mommy, hire a grade A ass kicker, save the world, and then go and hang our with your friend. Being friends with someone shouldn't be based around their abilities, but saying that "They should lessen their odds of success by lugging their dead weight friend around" is simply ridiculous.

Well they had about zero success the first time they tried to get a group of competent PCs, why should they fare any better the first time?

Plus, it just doesn't make an interesting story. You might as well replace the rest of the team with Super Ultra-Awesome Man, and end everything with that. There's a reason authors don't make the characters like god incarnate, it's so that they can make interesting stories about the character's struggles. And we've had plenty of interesting stories about Elan's struggles, with Therkala, Haley, and Tarquin, plus many more. It's fine if you don't want to see the development in all that, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

[Zevox]

Please Zevox, read the thread properly before you make statements like that. I never said Elan should have accepted his father's rule. I said he should have been smarter about how he handled it.
Looking back through the thread, it was indeed others saying that, not you. Your "should have seen him for what he is" line simply came off as such when I read it. In which case I made a mistake by directing that second post towards you, and apologize for that.

My posts do apply to those making that argument, however. Looking back, that would be G-Man Graves and Tazar.

Zevox

[CrimsonAngel]

So let me get this one straight. When "Making a joke" goes in Elan's favor, we can say that "See, this means he's good", but if a joke makes him a useless loser, than it's "Oh, it's just a joke". Is that what you're saying?

In that case, Belkar doesn't have a negative wisdom modifier. It was stated in a humorous way, and hence has no lasting repercussions.

That isn't what I was saying... I'm sorry, but you didn't win the million dollars.

Oh no, i'm sure it's a little over negative now. :smallsmile:

[G-Man Graves]

Well they had about zero success the first time they tried to get a group of competent PCs, why should they fare any better the first time?

Plus, it just doesn't make an interesting story. You might as well replace the rest of the team with Super Ultra-Awesome Man, and end everything with that. There's a reason authors don't make the characters like god incarnate, it's so that they can make interesting stories about the character's struggles. And we've had plenty of interesting stories about Elan's struggles, with Therkala, Haley, and Tarquin, plus many more. It's fine if you don't want to see the development in all that, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

I wasn't saying that "Oh, they should go looking for Jackie Chan to do all their fighting for them". I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of "He's their friend, so they should allow him to keep endangering them."

[Bulzeeb]

Please read the thread before you make posts like this. You will notice on the first page I specifically state that I do not want them to always make the smart choice, and detail my argument there.

Your previous argument fails to properly counter his point, which I agree with. There is logical reasoning behind Elan's choice to attack his father, which is that he should be stopped from committing further atrocities. In addition, the emotional response to discovering that his father burned to death some 20-odd slaves is extremely reasonable. You can argue that lacking the ability to completely control his emotions and take the time to assess the situation more appropriately is a mark against Elan's competence, which I would agree with. However, in the context of asserting that Elan is utterly incompetent in comparison to the average person, the action is not supportive of that notion, as Elan is acting like any average, person-offended-by-burning-others-to-death(trying to avoid alignment issues here) would act.

[Porthos]

I wasn't saying that "Oh, they should go looking for Jackie Chan to do all their fighting for them". I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of "He's their friend, so they should allow him to keep endangering them."

Really?

Then what was this post:


Um, well, considering that they are on a quest of literally universal importance, maybe a little optimizing wouldn't hurt. Send Elan home to mommy, hire a grade A ass kicker, save the world, and then go and hang our with your friend. Being friends with someone shouldn't be based around their abilities, but saying that "They should lessen their odds of success by lugging their dead weight friend around" is simply ridiculous.

Sure sounds like you are saying they should hire Jackie Chan. :smallwink:

But even if you were being fatuous, I would point out that Elan isn't useless. Certainly not by OotS standards.

Besides, he's a Bard. You know, Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Last time I checked, Bards were desgined to be semi-competent. :smallwink:

[Swordpriest]

I wasn't saying that "Oh, they should go looking for Jackie Chan to do all their fighting for them". I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of "He's their friend, so they should allow him to keep endangering them."

Ought to get rid of Belkar, then. I mean, he set the tent alight and came within an ace of getting them all hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Roy. He almost left them to be hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Durkon, he let them be beaten up by Miko.

Should get rid of Haley, she's endangering them by going for her father, not to mention the whole Greysky thing.

Should get rid of V, he owes a debt to fiends and probably has black dragons searching for him vengefully.

They've all endangered each other almost fatally at various times. So your argument, again, logically indicates that they should all be removed from the party. Elan alerting a couple of low-level mooks once or twice with bad Move Silently rolls isn't exactly on a par with some of the other ones' gaffes, in fact.

[Nimrod's Son]

They've all endangered each other almost fatally at various times. So your argument, again, logically indicates that they should all be removed from the party. Elan alerting a couple of low-level mooks once or twice with bad Move Silently rolls isn't exactly on a par with some of the other ones' gaffes, in fact.
There's a clever clause in the OP that says we're not allowed to talk about those, though. :smallamused:

[Porthos]

Ought to get rid of Belkar, then. I mean, he set the tent alight and came within an ace of getting them all hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Roy. He almost left them to be hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Durkon, he let them be beaten up by Miko.

Should get rid of Haley, she's endangering them by going for her father, not to mention the whole Greysky thing.

Should get rid of V, he owes a debt to fiends and probably has black dragons searching for him vengefully.

They've all endangered each other almost fatally at various times. So your argument, again, logically indicates that they should all be removed from the party. Elan alerting a couple of low-level mooks once or twice with bad Move Silently rolls isn't exactly on a par with some of the other ones' gaffes, in fact.

Blackwing has never purposefully endangered the party (though he did once blow a Will Save). Come to think of it, neither has Mr. Scruffy.

Hmmmm.

Maybe we can reconstitute the Order as nothing but Animals. Maybe even bring in the critters from the Bag of Tricks as meat shields. :smalltongue:

[Logalmier]

Ought to get rid of Belkar, then. I mean, he set the tent alight and came within an ace of getting them all hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Roy. He almost left them to be hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Durkon, he let them be beaten up by Miko.

Should get rid of Haley, she's endangering them by going for her father, not to mention the whole Greysky thing.

Should get rid of V, he owes a debt to fiends and probably has black dragons searching for him vengefully.

They've all endangered each other almost fatally at various times. So your argument, again, logically indicates that they should all be removed from the party. Elan alerting a couple of low-level mooks once or twice with bad Move Silently rolls isn't exactly on a par with some of the other ones' gaffes, in fact.

Egads! It's almost as if they were meant to be semi-competent!

[Nimrod's Son]

Blackwing has never purposefully endangered the party (though he did once blow a Will Save). Come to think of it, neither has Mr. Scruffy.
Actually, even Scruffy's guilty on that front (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html).

[Swordpriest]

There's a clever clause in the OP that says we're not allowed to talk about those, though. :smallamused:

Ah, okay -- we're not supposed to present contrary evidence, in short?

Good luck trying to get me to abide by a rule like that. :smallamused:

[Porthos]

Actually, even Scruffy's guilty on that front (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html).

There you are then! Out go Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing from the party as well. :smallmad:

Thank god for the critters from the Bag of Tricks. I'd bet they'd never just sit around doing nothing when they were needed by the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0232.html). :smallwink:

[Boogastreehouse]

Also, it was not just today's strip. As was pointed out before (can't remember who by) attacking his father because it was the dramatically appropriate thing to do was not a smart move, and could have very possibly put the friends that he cares for so much in danger. Other times were mentioned before as well, I won't repeat them because you can just scroll up to read them.


Oh my god, can you imagine how unfunny this strip would be if everyone always made the "smart move?" Besides, an appropriate emotional reaction kicks the "smart move" right out of the car without even slowing down.

I think that a lot of people on this thread are also confusing "competent action-hero" and "improved butt-kicker" with "character development."


Please read the thread before you make posts like this. You will notice on the first page I specifically state that I do not want them to always make the smart choice, and detail my argument there.

I saw your initial statement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10054885&postcount=11). No one put a gun to your head and forced you to contradict yourself a few posts later. The fact that these two statements don't exactly line up is not my fault, so save the condescending tone for someone else.

I was replying to your complaint about Elan not making a smart move, and I quoted it again, just in case you forgot.

[G-Man Graves]

Ought to get rid of Belkar, then. I mean, he set the tent alight and came within an ace of getting them all hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Roy. He almost left them to be hanged by the bandits.

Should get rid of Durkon, he let them be beaten up by Miko.

Should get rid of Haley, she's endangering them by going for her father, not to mention the whole Greysky thing.

Should get rid of V, he owes a debt to fiends and probably has black dragons searching for him vengefully.

They've all endangered each other almost fatally at various times. So your argument, again, logically indicates that they should all be removed from the party. Elan alerting a couple of low-level mooks once or twice with bad Move Silently rolls isn't exactly on a par with some of the other ones' gaffes, in fact.

Belkar similarly pulled Haley out of the fire when she almost got herself killed by the guild.

Roy came back and proceeded to save them.

Durkon tried to get them to take the peaceful route.

Yeah, they probably should get rid of Haley, she seems to be leaking her redeeming qualities, and is become a Chaotic Neutral murderer.

V? Yeah, he owes 19 minutes of his life to fiends, but let's put it this way. His 19 minutes of Godhood fixed several of the major problems. Also, if you're trying to desperately justify arguments, I would recommend looking at the details. He cast familicide to PREVENT dragons coming after him.

Unlike Elan, the other members of the party actually have the ability to pull their way out of the problems they cause, and then proceed to actually contribute. However, you would KNOW all this if you had actually READ my above posts, so my hopes aren't high for this one having any affect.

[Porthos]

Belkar similarly pulled Haley out of the fire when she almost got herself killed by the guild.

Roy came back and proceeded to save them.

Durkon tried to get them to take the peaceful route.

Unlike Elan, the other members of the party actually have the ability to pull their way out of the problems they cause, and then proceed to actually contribute. However, you would KNOW all this if you had actually READ my above posts, so my hopes aren't high for this one having any affect.


The only times he ever actually does anything is when bailing people out of situations he caused with his monumental stupidity. Burst and saved Haley from Nale? Big deal, Nale was only there because of Elan. Convinced the orcs to trade with the Azurites? Shame that the party was only saved by the actions of a shallow NPC. Get's the Order on Draketooth? He promptly tries to ruin it by attempting to kill his father, the lead in question, because that's the "dramatically correct" thing to do.

Contradictory, much? :smalltongue:

[Nimrod's Son]

Also, if you're trying to desperately justify arguments, I would recommend looking at the details. He cast familicide to PREVENT dragons coming after him.
I'm beginning to notice a pattern with you and taking characters' transparent self-justification for their own evil deeds at face value.


Ah, okay -- we're not supposed to present contrary evidence, in short?

Good luck trying to get me to abide by a rule like that. :smallamused:
Actually, looking again, it doesn't actually say we can't talk about it. It says:


And before we get posts along the lines of "Why is Belkar still around" or "Why is Durkon still around", try to keep in mind that those characters actively contribute, without causing the problems in the first place.
Hmm. So Belkar setting a tent on fire at the bandit camp didn't cause any problems for the party. You heard it here first, folks.

[Swordpriest]

Unlike Elan, the other members of the party actually have the ability to pull their way out of the problems they cause, and then proceed to actually contribute. However, you would KNOW all this if you had actually READ my above posts, so my hopes aren't high for this one having any affect.

And I guess Elan breaking out of prison by manipulating one of his enemies into helping him, getting south to Azure City, bursting in the window and saving Haley's life -- and defeating Nale into the bargain, even if it was only temporarily -- counts for nothing?

Capturing Kubota doesn't count either, then, I suppose.

Killing beetle slavers? Check.

Inspiring competence in Haley to break them out of the prison in Azure City?

How about instead of confining yourself to sneers that you think give you some kind of "unanswerable Parthian shot" against my arguments, you read my posts for a change? Your position, sir, is logically untenable.

[Warren Dew]

If Elan isn't competent in the party, then who is?

Roy is a straight fighter, and thus by definition "useless".

V is a Blaster Wizard, and a poorly designed one at that.

Belkar is someone who isn't eligible for half his Class Features, and he regularly forgets the other half.

Durkon, who by all rights should the most optimized of the group, barely contributes in most fights. And let's not even get into his problems with handling Undead.

The only person in the entire party that is mostly competent is Haley. And she is a rogue who specialized in bow attacks.

So we have, maybe, one and a half "competent" characters in the entire party that is "up to the task".
Roy had demonstrated his competence on repeated occasions. Vaarsuvius is indispensible - remember the statue of the demon that would have turned the party to toast, among other occasions. Durkon is a healer, he can contribute without fighting.

Elan is around for amusement value, not in game competence. He's also useful occasionally for reminding the rest of the party what 'good' is when they start resorting to questionable pragmatism. In game, his position is safe: Roy's first abandonment of him almost lost Roy his chance to see his family in the afterlife; Roy's not going to risk that again.

The one that makes no sense is Belkar. His unpredictability makes him a major liability, and he's lost much of his amusement value. Haley and Roy actually realize this; hopefully they follow through on plans to get rid of him.

[Porthos]

Roy had demonstrated his competence on repeated occasions. Vaarsuvius is indispensible - remember the statue of the demon that would have turned the party to toast, among other occasions. Durkon is a healer, he can contribute without fighting.

I was speaking entierly tongue-in-cheekily. :smallwink: Mostly from the supposed perspective some someone who talks in terms if Tiers and Optimization.

I personally don't believe a word of that. But I felt that the whole idea of competency needed to be mocked for the ridiculous notion that it is in this case. :smallsmile:

[Swordpriest]

The one that makes no sense is Belkar. His unpredictability makes him a major liability, and he's lost much of his amusement value. Haley and Roy actually realize this; hopefully they follow through on plans to get rid of him.

On this point, I agree wholeheartedly. Belkar was funny in the early strips, and I still crack up reading a lot of his lines from then. The "poor dumb pickle woman" comment was his last gasp of being remotely funny -- I, at least, haven't gotten a single chuckle out of him since then.

[Warren Dew]

Sure sounds like you are saying they should hire Jackie Chan. :smallwink:

I think you're misinterpreting his post. He's saying that they should get characters whose actual effectiveness better reflects their theoretical power, not characters with more theoretical power.

I frankly suspect there are few such characters available, though.

[Squirrel_Token]

Oots: srs business :smallwink:

I like Elan. Elan is funny. More Elan please :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

I think you're misinterpreting his post. He's saying that they should get characters whose actual effectiveness better reflects their theoretical power, not characters with more theoretical power.

I frankly suspect there are few such characters available, though.

Meh. Give me entertaining over effective any day. :smallsmile:

Besides, the ability of a group to overcome its challenges is down entirely to the DM writer and what they run across he throws at them. I tend to think that Rich will make the challenges that the party faces just enough to be dangerous (and even fatal in some cases) but without blowing up the entire world.

Even if (some of) the Order is only somewhat effective. :smallwink:

[Warren Dew]

On this point, I agree wholeheartedly. Belkar was funny in the early strips, and I still crack up reading a lot of his lines from then. The "poor dumb pickle woman" comment was his last gasp of being remotely funny -- I, at least, haven't gotten a single chuckle out of him since then.

I agree. I'm not panning Belkar in general - I still enjoy him in some of the early strips when I reread them - but for some reason he's worn kind of thin.

Elan has been the opposite for me: I found him incredibly annoying early on, but recently he's become a lot more enjoyable. I don't know if it's the addition of the "pure of heart" role, his attachment to Haley, that a longer strip needs different characters, or whether it's me that's changed.

[Forum Explorer]

Besides Elan is described as having Ignorance as a class power. Afterall

He found the link to Girard in the first place. Without him they would be stuck searching the different cities for any clue.

He saved them from the orcs on the island when V wouldn't and Durkon couldn't.

He was more compentant agianst the bug slavers than Belkar was (who only started killing when Mr. Scruffy was threatened.)

He gave Haley the clue to understand that the wacky old guy was faking it.

He made Roy reilize that Miko was actrually a monumental prick (through inconventianal methods) and what it truely means to be good.

He sucessfully got everyone out of the inn before it blew up.

If he hadn't activated the self destruct symbol, Xykon would have reformed and just moved right back in after picking up a couple infants from the nearest village.

Basically without him the story would have been over a few dozen times already. And the example of losing to two hobgoblins is ignoring that he had already killed a unmentioned amount of them already. (They said something about him using that pun a dozen rounds ago or something like that)

EDIT: On the Belkar note I still like him and thought the scene with him messing with Roy in the arena as priceless.

[tiercel]

I think that Elan has shown some real growth, just as the "designated goofball" he is more likely to lapse into callback jokes and so on.

OTOH, I do find it a little annoying that even in a calculatedly dis-optimized group, that the bard character does shine out as the most mechanically incompetent. I'm setting aside character growth or the relative power of classes here and just saying, how good is a given character at doing what his class *should* be good at? While bards are routinely labeled the "jack of all trades," Elan is a little too often more of a "two, maybe three, of all trades," and more to the point seems to be the one who most routinely suffers catastrophic failure in game terms.

Yes, yes, I know, comic relief, and there has been some character development, and even a modicum of competence development with Dashing Swordsman and planned spell choices, but... "HUR HUR you useless spoony bard" jokes get a little old, given that the bard class has been the butt of them for almost as long as the class has existed.

It would be nice for Elan to have an actual Moment of Awesome ("Does Nale count? --Not really.") and there is a chance the Giant could provide one for us with all this buildup of Tarquin -- if Elan can actually manage to defeat him in a plausible, convincing fashion despite Tarquin's sheer Awesomeness, it would be a pretty big turning point in making Elan into a real hero, not just the ultimate butt of D&D jokes.

I understand the mythopoeia wherein a callow youth rises from his disadvantages and humble beginnings to become a True Hero and live Happily Ever After, but, ideally, though there may be some "aw shucks" man-child goofiness still left by the end, the character shouldn't have to be the 24-hour Callow Radio Channel taking only the occasional brief commercial break to bring you a "momentary development word from our sponsor."

[MoonCat]

I have a guess that when the book comes out, there will be some commentary covering what this episode was for. I have a feeling that the Giant may have wanted to give Elan another "upgrade", this time in maturity. His last upgrade gave us a swashbuckler, this one gives us someone who is more emotionally mature. But he is still going to be a light-hearted source of genre/goofball comedy.

[Morithias]

This.

Any tactician and leader would say this is one of the most valuable purposes in a group.

Yes, but we don't send our pop stars overseas to fight in the wars. We keep them in the bases doing it behind the scenes. They serve a passive role, not active.

[Marillion]

Vaarsuvius is indispensible - remember the statue of the demon that would have turned the party to toast, among other occasions.

You mean the demon he allowed to be summoned? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

[A Weeping Angel]

Tarquin manages to transcend stereotypes, however; he's not just a mustachio-twirling villain.

Elan, unfortunately, does not overcome these stereotypes.

Acting "according to the laws of dramatics" is hardly an excuse; had Tarquin not been absurdly forgiving, Elan and the entire party very well could have suffered greatly for his hasty and thoroughly unconsidered actions.

Again, you'll note that he doesn't even attempt to understand why his father might possibly be doing what he's doing.

In-comic Tarquin has at least thirty years of experience in subverting, overcoming, and making the "conventions of genre/trope/dramatic" work for him. While Elan is now just realizing that he doesn't have to slavishly live his life according to those conventions.
I haven't read the prequel books so they might add something. Here is his basis.
The knight Elan heralded for was probably an incredibly cliche'd and stereotypical example doing all the standard stuff. Then Elan joins the Order and begins to see there is more to the world. Though the episode with Samantha and how seducing a hot villainess is "in the Bard Charter or something" he is still living according to those expectations. But Haley could also serve to further his growth there. By this point in the story Elan has begun to take the first tentative steps to move beyond conventions. Here in the last few panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html) Elan is upset, disillusioned, and needs to lash out, so he falls back on what he knows but is at least verbalizing that it is a convention. So by this most recent strip you are expecting someone who is still grappling with the newish concept that it is possible to twist those conventions to your will, and move beyond the surface and live by them only when it suits you? As Tarquin clearly can though with much more experience and understands because maybe he went through something similar, so he sees that nascent growth in his son.
So Elan after having an unlucky roll than thinks this inside his head: "Oops, what is the normal trope to use here? That's right! I'll use 'Surprise Inspection', that is a good one. But wait, my father who clearly knows as much if not more then I do will have prepared for that. I will then ignore all tropes/conventions and do something straightforward that was not expected."
Elan is just not there yet though might get there eventually and I think he understands what his father is doing shown here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)
This is what I adore about Tarquin, is that he is the most integrated character and most able to think meta-fictionally. Knows the tropes, appears to live by the tropes, and all the while ensuring that he is protected from them at the same time using them to further his own ends.
Something that Elan has had no need to do or think about until this point.

[LuPuWei]

Well, at any rate, here's one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html) thing useful that Elan's done in battle, recently- and it reflects his growing character and usefulness in the perfect way.

My own two cents is that although he's largely cumbersome to carry around, often his innocence and mindless optimism are vital towards keeping the OotS in line, morally. He may be horribly inept at delivering the goods, but he's the only member of the OotS unwaveringly dedicated to doing what's good. (Except maybe Durkon)

[Kish]

Kish, if you feel that is what is happeneing then don't make it worse, take the high ground and stop arguing about it.

1) I don't "feel" that it's happening. I observe it happening. It's not a matter of opinion.
2) Pointing out that it is not a failing in Elan that he refuses to "recognize" that the vile monster Tarquin is anything but a vile monster is not, in fact, off-topic for this thread or unrelated to the first post in it. Tazar's "I'm making this assertion, but it would be off-topic to argue with me" is a rhetorical tactic here and nothing more.

[SoC175]

Not really, it's just an good example for how he consistently fails in dumb ways. It wasn't really dumb, it was just an allegory for rolling a 4. Even if he hadn't shouted, the guards would have heard his 9. Although how he still has such a low move silently check to be able to get as low as 9 is another issue.

[Cerlis]

Also, if Tarquin and his alignment should stay out of this thread, I think people will need to stop bringing Elan's reaction to him up. It's kind of hard to discuss Elan's reaction to Tarquin without bringing up Tarquin or his alignment.

sweet merciful gods, i've gone 3 pages resisting the urge to say this in the hopes someone else already had.

Indeed, if we are going to get all stingy about keeping a thread topic from getting to wide and overreaching (which is impossible when you do something like question a major characters worth and contribution over the entirety of a series that spans several books) then stuff like "Look what he did with Therkla and Kubota" and "His reaction to his father proves that hes <insert adjective here>"

because then people have to go back and find evidence and proof how you (you being the person making the accusation) are wrong by digging deeper into the the story.

Example

: We say Elan is inept because he reacted unintelligently to Tarquinns reveal in a way that risked the party's mission---> Thus to prove you are wrong we have to point out the Large amount of talk, negotiation and attempt for Elan to try to understand and accept his father and compare it to the horrible evilness and the various acts; and the philosophies that shows how Elan and and probably anyone with sense of decency including the other "competent" members of the group would act in a simular way-->thus several other subjects and theologies that are a tangent of this topic (and thus technically part of it) are brought up--> Then someone calls redflag, because its a subject not 100% directly about Elan, but is only brought up because of the large amount of proof and example the defending side feels dispprove the accusation.


TL;DR : If your going to bring up Tangent subjects like how Elan acted in this situation or that situation, then people are going to talk about that Tangent subject, and thus the topic is going to go on...a Tangent. If you open up a can of worms, those worms might just be used against you.


---------------------------------------

Elan lost to two goblins. NOT impressive. Wanna know the difference between Elan's fights and the other's fights? The other's were taking on opponents that were much more powerful and experienced then they were, or, in V's case, immune to his magic. Elan lost to two. Pathetic. CR 1/2. Hobgoblins. That is disgusting. Level one heroes do better.

And V is so pathetic that she had to run away from Hobgoblins. Pathetic, weak. A wizard should be able to take out scores of hobgoblins. at least until they run out of spells....like Elan ran out of puns. So no not pathetic. As the general pointed out, the Order had every reason to believe they'd all die in this battle.

--------------------------
I disagree that they mitigate enough. You can believe what you want to, I'll believe what I want to.

Well i'm sure that there are some people that dont believe in gravity either. Doesnt mean gravity doesnt exist. From what i see of the thread Porthos (and a few others) have disarmed the notion of Elan not having any development or lack of use. And I still dont see anything to disprove my theory that this whole issue is a confusion between "Stupid useless* liability" and "Chaotic Good Stupid Protagonist with Extra Good and Extra Stupid". Really when it boils down to it, everything "Wrong" with elan is that he is impulsive, doesnt know as much as others and is A little(not so little) slow

*fixed

-----------------------------------

Your previous argument fails to properly counter his point, which I agree with. There is logical reasoning behind Elan's choice to attack his father, which is that he should be stopped from committing further atrocities. In addition, the emotional response to discovering that his father burned to death some 20-odd slaves is extremely reasonable. You can argue that lacking the ability to completely control his emotions and take the time to assess the situation more appropriately is a mark against Elan's competence, which I would agree with. However, in the context of asserting that Elan is utterly incompetent in comparison to the average person, the action is not supportive of that notion, as Elan is acting like any average, person-offended-by-burning-others-to-death(trying to avoid alignment issues here) would act.

Exactly. Elan's not a Vulcan. I believe the official(unofficial) term is "berserk button"

Elan has the flaw of being averse to horrible murders,and a bad habit of trying to put a stop to them heh.

---------------------------

Yes, but we don't send our pop stars overseas to fight in the wars. We keep them in the bases doing it behind the scenes. They serve a passive role, not active.

and what about the plucky cynical jokester who is ok with a gun but is more the heart of the party. So long as he doesnt get another soldier killed the commander keeps him.

The Flash has super skill but hes usually there to be overconfident and screw up and get in over his head.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why is Elan around?

Because he provides a +3 bonus to attack rolls, damage, and saves against fear.

[Tannhaeuser]

I may, of course, have overlooked it, but I am a little surprised that no one has brought up that Elan saved Roy's life (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html) from a situation Roy had brought on himself (by allowing people to think he was the King of Nowhere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html)).

Frankly, though, I think Elan is his own justification. I doubt I'd read the comic if it weren't for him.

[Jay R]

"Defend, defend, defend, defend the bard for being funny in a comic."

[G-Man Graves]

And V is so pathetic that she had to run away from Hobgoblins. Pathetic, weak. A wizard should be able to take out scores of hobgoblins. at least until they run out of spells....like Elan ran out of puns. So no not pathetic. As the general pointed out, the Order had every reason to believe they'd all die in this battle.



See, this is what I find ridiculous about the defense that people are bringing up. "Oh, V ran away, just like Elan did, clearly this mean's Elan is on the same level as V." Well, no. V used his magic to alter the battle dramatically. Without him, it could have easily been over in minutes. For him to fight without spells would be like asking Roy to fight without his sword, or Belkar without his knives. Potentially possible, but not likely to end well. Elan, on the other hand, still had his weapon. He just wasn't able to get his +4 from puns. He should still be ABLE to fight. He is a high level adventurer, and a "Jack of all trades" should have an at least moderate BAB. Elan didn't.

[Swordpriest]

See, this is what I find ridiculous about the defense that people are bringing up. "Oh, V ran away, just like Elan did, clearly this mean's Elan is on the same level as V." Well, no. V used his magic to alter the battle dramatically. Without him, it could have easily been over in minutes. For him to fight without spells would be like asking Roy to fight without his sword, or Belkar without his knives. Potentially possible, but not likely to end well. Elan, on the other hand, still had his weapon. He just wasn't able to get his +4 from puns. He should still be ABLE to fight. He is a high level adventurer, and a "Jack of all trades" should have an at least moderate BAB. Elan didn't.

{Scrubbed}

[Warren Dew]

You mean the demon he allowed to be summoned? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)

The very fact that you're singling out Vaarsuvius when in fact none of the party interfered with the summoning indicates how Vaarsuvius is relied upon to save the party.

[Shale]

They could have stabbed him with magic weapons while he was helpless. They didn't because V, overconfident trance-deprived moron that s/he was at that point, explicitly said he was wasting his time and not a credible threat. They weren't relying on the wizard to save them from the eight-inch demon, just for advice on the arcane.

[Tannhaeuser]

O funny bard! This thread, this thread defamed you ―
From Comic One to Seven Sixty-Six,
For lack of character development it blamed you,
And called your jokes the same old bag of tricks.
But I still think you’re funny, though not clever;
You make me laugh, as even Belkar said,
And I’ll defend you on that ground forever.
O funny bard! I’m glad you’re still there to be read.

[Warren Dew]

And V is so pathetic that she had to run away from Hobgoblins. Pathetic, weak. A wizard should be able to take out scores of hobgoblins. at least until they run out of spells....like Elan ran out of puns. So no not pathetic.
Vaarsuvius held a breach almost solo, with scores, if not hundreds, of hobgoblins dying first; Elan didn't.

Look, I'm on the Elan should be kept around side, but let's not pretend that his combat ability justifies it. His combat contribution is indeed pathetic compared to the other party members; the reasons to keep him around relate to issues other than combat.

[headmonkeyboy]

Elan is the brick wall on the road of easy actions. Though he has gone through some character developement, we dont really see the outcome of it in this story arc. He wasnt like this in the battle of azure city. Nor was he like this at sea,(well except for the whole "Banjo is a god" happenstance.) but its almost like its back to square one for Elan when we see him here. But hey, The Giant knows best, if hes gonna use Elan to make the jailbrake happen at a different time, or even 5 minutes later on the other side of the building, it`ll end up just fine, the plot will still move forward, even IF Elan is being a complete moron. (and he WILL be.) I think the Elan is in the group because the OOTsers are his friends, and even though he may be a pain sometime, he can also be real helpful. (Id put examples but most of them have already been mentioned.) I think it would be better if Elan had the same personality that he did while he was at sea, but hey, its not my webcomic.

[Logalmier]

Vaarsuvius held a breach almost solo, with scores, if not hundreds, of hobgoblins dying first;

Weeellll... that's not really true...

Vaarsuvius held the breach with the aid of the other soldiers, primarily the ones that he/she boosted with magic. If he/she had truly been fighting solo, I doubt he/she would have lasted long. Not disagreeing with your point that Vaarsuvius influenced the battle in a major way, but he/she didn't just do it solo.

[MoonCat]

There are two things you ask. One, why Elan is still here for Rich, and two, why Elan is still here for the Order.
:elan:Outside the story Rich has a means for comedic relief and a romantic couple. He also works well to set up two other members of the party as straight men, Roy and V. Also, Elan works as a gauge, when he get affected, Rich is telling us, this is serious business.
:elan:In plot, Haley would leave if Elan was fired, and Roy can't afford losing both. Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Belkar say they like him, and are willing to deal with annoyances rather than lose him. Roy probably is still feeling guilty about leaving him to an unknown fate, and does care for Elan, despite how insane he can drive him.

For me, Elan keeps getting better, and despite the occasional joke that shows he is still OUR Elan, his sincerity and caring has held the Order together.

[Cizak]

Man, why is MitD still around? He does nothing to help Team Evil, he's just childish!

Man, why is Tsukiko still around? She does nothing to help Tem Evil, she just wanna get into Xykon's robes!

Man, why is the Linear Guild still around? All they are are a cheap gang of evil twins, they're not even funny!

Man, why are the demon roaches still around? All they do is say stupid little pink lines, they don't even contribute to the story!

Man, why are the Azurites still around? Their city got taken over, just shoot yourselves already!

Man, why is Blackwing still around? He's just there to set up V to some more punch lines!

Man, why is Ian still around? All he does is making us watch this sub-mission, just die of old age already!

Man, why is Kazumi still around! All she is is pregnant, she can't even run fast enough or shout high enough to get Durkon!

Man, why is the Empress still around? All she is is an excuse to make fat-jokes.

Man, why is Malack still around? All he is is another character for Durkon to talk too.

Man, why is the Order still around? All they do is get themselves into sub-plots, they never finish the main quest!

[Swordpriest]

Elan is the brick wall on the road of easy actions. Though he has gone through some character developement, we dont really see the outcome of it in this story arc. He wasnt like this in the battle of azure city. Nor was he like this at sea,(well except for the whole "Banjo is a god" happenstance.) but its almost like its back to square one for Elan when we see him here.

Well, I believe it was supposed to be funny -- anyone could roll a 4 on their Move Silently check, it's not an Elan thing. I think a lot of people are having trouble seeing this as what it is -- a lampoon of D&D rules. They're actually giving Elan too much "credit" for fouling up. :smallbiggrin:

[MoonCat]

Bravo Cizak!
And to those who say Elan is useless in a fight...

Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

[Gift Jeraff]

Why is this thread even around? :smallwink:

Man, why is the Order still around? All they do is get themselves into sub-plots, they never finish the main quest!
I love this and would like to sig it.

[Raistlin1040]

Man, this thread (especially those on the Anti-Elan side) is major srs.

In my opinion, Elan is the moral center more than anything else. Durkon is willing to listen to anyone who claims to be Lawful Good (See: Miko) and doesn't always think for himself. V is well known for his flexible alignment. Haley is "Good-ish". Belkar is obviously evil. Even Roy is not exempt from the occasional Neutral move (leaving Elan stranded in the bandit forest). Elan is unquestionably Good.

That's why I'd keep Elan around, if I was trying to save the world. It's easy to handwave minor evils off as "for the greater good". The Order would probably be far more efficient if they dealt with every problem like V did with Kubota. Elan is the moral compass who sees the line that divides "Unfortunate Act for the Greater Good" and "Evil Act for the Greater Good".

[Mauve Shirt]

It's not Elan's fault that he rolled a 9. If he'd fallen down and made a lot of noise, or stepped on a twig or something, this thread wouldn't be here. But instead there's a callback to an earlier joke, and that's fine.
The funniest thing about this strip is Tarquin's Tips. :smalltongue: Truly he is his son's father.

[Boogastreehouse]

O funny bard! This thread, this thread defamed you ―
From Comic One to Seven Sixty-Six,
For lack of character development it blamed you,
And called your jokes the same old bag of tricks.
But I still think you’re funny, though not clever;
You make me laugh, as even Belkar said,
And I’ll defend you on that ground forever.
O funny bard! I’m glad you’re still there to be read.

That made me smile.

[SPoD]

Tarquin exists because of Elan. There would be no Tarquin to admire as a character if Elan was not exactly the way he is. So, if someone is going to say how great Tarquin is, then that's an answer to something Elan contributes to the strip.

[TreesOfDeath]

Roy's an idito he should have just got the (origion spoilers)2 over powered celestrials Durkon picked out and ended the story in 50 strips. That would be far more entertaining and logical, right?

Elan may be an idiot but hes shown real growth and he is much less of a liability than he was, now being far more help than a liability. The posts at the top of page 7 and some on page 6 show this extremly well. Yes hes an idiot but hes LEARNING. And yes hes goign to flip out at a dictator who slaughters people for his own amusement.

He genereally does NOT do the stupid stuff he did early on, like glowing neon signs letting the mosnters know the heroes are here, and mostly stays within the bounds of common sense when he can help it.

And I feel this arc and comic will show yet more use and more devlopment for Elan.

[Mr. Zolrane]

This:


In-comic Tarquin has at least thirty years of experience in subverting, overcoming, and making the "conventions of genre/trope/dramatic" work for him. While Elan is now just realizing that he doesn't have to slavishly live his life according to those conventions.
I haven't read the prequel books so they might add something. Here is his basis.
The knight Elan heralded for was probably an incredibly cliche'd and stereotypical example doing all the standard stuff. Then Elan joins the Order and begins to see there is more to the world. Though the episode with Samantha and how seducing a hot villainess is "in the Bard Charter or something" he is still living according to those expectations. But Haley could also serve to further his growth there. By this point in the story Elan has begun to take the first tentative steps to move beyond conventions. Here in the last few panels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html) Elan is upset, disillusioned, and needs to lash out, so he falls back on what he knows but is at least verbalizing that it is a convention. So by this most recent strip you are expecting someone who is still grappling with the newish concept that it is possible to twist those conventions to your will, and move beyond the surface and live by them only when it suits you? As Tarquin clearly can though with much more experience and understands because maybe he went through something similar, so he sees that nascent growth in his son.
So Elan after having an unlucky roll than thinks this inside his head: "Oops, what is the normal trope to use here? That's right! I'll use 'Surprise Inspection', that is a good one. But wait, my father who clearly knows as much if not more then I do will have prepared for that. I will then ignore all tropes/conventions and do something straightforward that was not expected."
Elan is just not there yet though might get there eventually and I think he understands what his father is doing shown here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html)
This is what I adore about Tarquin, is that he is the most integrated character and most able to think meta-fictionally. Knows the tropes, appears to live by the tropes, and all the while ensuring that he is protected from them at the same time using them to further his own ends.
Something that Elan has had no need to do or think about until this point.

And more succinctly this:


Tarquin exists because of Elan. There would be no Tarquin to admire as a character if Elan was not exactly the way he is. So, if someone is going to say how great Tarquin is, then that's an answer to something Elan contributes to the strip.

Lead to believe the hypothesis I've been formulating about Tarquin is at least partly true: Tarquin, from a meta-standpoint (though what about him ISN'T meta on some level) exists as a deconstruction/for-lack-of-a-nail version of Elan: someone who lives by the laws of the dramatic, but takes the Evil side of things rather than the good. Tarquin's character explores the stark horror inherent in a character as meta as Elan. Don't get me wrong, I love Elan and I'm definitely on the pro-Elan side of this thread, but Tarquin really makes one think about how little separates Elan from himself.

In short, to quote The Joker, Elan is "one really bad day away" from being Tarquin. Elan's already about as genre-savvy as a person can be, and if he should ever lose his moral center he could be just as bad as Tarquin.

[Cizak]

I love this and would like to sig it.

Sure, no promblems :smallsmile:

EDIT:
Quoted directly from the FAQ as an answer to the question "Why don't the Order kick Elan out and hire a more competent character?"


Q: In Strip #X, why didn.t character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.

A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or .forgetting. major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.

[The Pilgrim]

So, basically...

Roy got himself and Belkar imprisioned because he was dumb enough to lead the party into the city without filling the entry papers. And because he was dumb enough to provoke a barfight (he even acknoweldes that).

Durkon hasn't broken Roy from prison because he is dumb enough to honor the legal system of an Evil Empire. And he is trusting an albino lizard cleric who follows a God of Death, wears black and serves as spiritual advisor of a Red Dragon and a blatantly evil warlord.

Belkar has put himself and Roy on schelude for the Gladiatoral Arena just for the shake of it.

Vaarsuvius has sold her soul to infernal beings. Without even getting a clue about what they want her soul for.

So... oh, Gods, Elan is truly a Monster for blowing a stealth roll.

...

PD: Haley is performing too well lately. If she doesn't blunders sometime soon, I'll begin to think she has turned into a Mary Sue.

[Porthos]

Haley is performing too well lately. If she doesn't blunders sometime soon, I'll begin to think she has turned into a Mary Sue.

Haley set free a bunch of slaves without adequately assuring that they had safe passage or a safe destination. Thus she condemned them to a slow torturous death. Moreover her actions threatened the larger Save the World Mission that the Order is partaking, and it is only thanks to the magnanimous compassion of Tarquin that she wasn't punished for her insolence.

Not only does she not thank Tarquin for his lenience, but she also further spits in his eye by trying to stage a jailbreak. She really is jeopardizing all of creation here.

Kicking her out of the party would be almost too kind, if you ask me. Instead a stay in jail might do her wonders. One can only hope that rotting away in a jail cell for a few years would knock some sense into her and make her far less impulsive and more mature.

There. Fixed. :smallamused:

[denthor]

Since I am feeling lazy and do not want to read through 8 pages Elan is around for this purpose (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) another example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html)

reference comics 127-128, 234 he cause others to grow as people very well who cares if he grows he make other better and good.

[Cerlis]

See, this is what I find ridiculous about the defense that people are bringing up. "Oh, V ran away, just like Elan did, clearly this mean's Elan is on the same level as V." Well, no. V used his magic to alter the battle dramatically. Without him, it could have easily been over in minutes. For him to fight without spells would be like asking Roy to fight without his sword, or Belkar without his knives. Potentially possible, but not likely to end well. Elan, on the other hand, still had his weapon. He just wasn't able to get his +4 from puns. He should still be ABLE to fight. He is a high level adventurer, and a "Jack of all trades" should have an at least moderate BAB. Elan didn't.

except we are calling into question his worthlessness, not his usefulness. One doesnt have to be near the top to be useful. The problem is people seeing him as unhelpful at all and added to that a liability. So the fact that V's maximum was so much more than Elan's doesnt matter, but V's incident proves that just cus Elan happened to run out of ammo doesnt mean jack against him.

Further, if we are going to be pedantic i'd like to point out that Elan never lost to those hobgoblins, he got scared cus he was going to get attacked by them without the benefit of his Attack and defense bonuses he gets for making puns. No one likes getting stabbed in the face after all. Nale could wipe the floor with those goblins and Elan beat Nale in a fight twice (or was winning in the first one, hence why Nale decided to switch partners).

One horrified look to being caught (ability) disarmed in no way adds to the reality of Elan being useless and a liability.

[A Weeping Angel]

This:



And more succinctly this:



Lead to believe the hypothesis I've been formulating about Tarquin is at least partly true: Tarquin, from a meta-standpoint (though what about him ISN'T meta on some level) exists as a deconstruction/for-lack-of-a-nail version of Elan: someone who lives by the laws of the dramatic, but takes the Evil side of things rather than the good. Tarquin's character explores the stark horror inherent in a character as meta as Elan. Don't get me wrong, I love Elan and I'm definitely on the pro-Elan side of this thread, but Tarquin really makes one think about how little separates Elan from himself.

In short, to quote The Joker, Elan is "one really bad day away" from being Tarquin. Elan's already about as genre-savvy as a person can be, and if he should ever lose his moral center he could be just as bad as Tarquin.

Exactly. Plus Elan is Chaotic anyway so his execution will always be all over the place in terms of outright effectiveness and his responses to life.
I agree with your hypothesis and Tarquin is so meta, it makes me shake my English Lit major studying head in wonder at Rich and his own genius.

[HerrTenko]

Even if they kicked Elan out of the team, it would be no use. His ability to trip over the plot would bring him back sooner or later anyway.

Also, the Oracle clearly said he was bound to have a Happy Ending. Thus, he is absolutely necessary to the rest of the Order, for the mere reasong that HE is the one that will make the whole story end well.

[tiriricasmk]

i agree,elan sucks and he is not funny anymore
heck,i think DURKON is funnier and at least he heals people

he should die instead of belkar :smallfurious:

[Cerlis]

Even if they kicked Elan out of the team, it would be no use. His ability to trip over the plot would bring him back sooner or later anyway.

Also, the Oracle clearly said he was bound to have a Happy Ending. Thus, he is absolutely necessary to the rest of the Order, for the mere reasong that HE is the one that will make the whole story end well.


hmm...I find those to be...two very good points.

[Capt Spanner]

I seem to remember DstP had some very pertinent commentary on this matter, but I don't have a copy of it with me.

I believe it says something along the lines that Elan is the spirit of the team. Were he to get kicked out the party would get depressed, infighting would occur or they'd just give up due to low morale.

That said, since I can't check I may totally be imagining that.

[Sholos]

In short, to quote The Joker, Elan is "one really bad day away" from being Tarquin. Elan's already about as genre-savvy as a person can be, and if he should ever lose his moral center he could be just as bad as Tarquin.

I thought the point of that was that people weren't "one bad day" away from being the Joker and that the Joker really is just a monstrous person.

[Mr. Zolrane]

I thought the point of that was that people weren't "one bad day" away from being the Joker and that the Joker really is just a monstrous person.

That was The Dark Knight. The Killing Joke, the comic TDK draws most heavily from is a tad more ambiguous on that point.

And regardless of how true it was in its original context, I think it's true of Elan and Tarquin's relationship.

[Swordpriest]

That was The Dark Knight. The Killing Joke, the comic TDK draws most heavily from is a tad more ambiguous on that point.

And regardless of how true it was in its original context, I think it's true of Elan and Tarquin's relationship.

Considering that Elan has never shown anything other than a benign temperament, I'm not sure that I follow you.

[Nail Not-Nale]

I believe it says something along the lines that Elan is the spirit of the team. Were he to get kicked out the party would get depressed, infighting would occur or they'd just give up due to low morale.


There's more than one reason Elan has his name.

-Without Elan, there's no Linear Guild.

-Without Elan, Roy would have never put up with Belkar.

-Without Elan, Haley wouldn't have a reason to jump in to lead the group when Roy was in the afterlife, and she wouldn't have gotten her voice back.

-Without Elan, V wouldn't have an example of being totally selfless to learn from.

Elan drives the plot as much as any of the Order. Bards are also more useful to a team than they appear. He's been learning more spells and using them, as well as upgrading his fighting skills. Just because INT is his dump stat, it doesn't mean he hasn't or won't contribute to the success of the party. They all had chances to ditch him, and they haven't, even Roy. If that doesn't say he's useful, nothing does.

[Tazar]

I'm fairly certain Roy felt bad about abandoning him because of how naive and innocent Elan was. The fact that he was contemplating leaving him to die in the first place kind of speaks to how useful he was to the team at that moment.

Not disagreeing that the rest of the party won't leave him, but it's very much so due to his personal qualities and not what he adds to the group ability-wise, which is to be frank not much.

[Bulzeeb]

That was The Dark Knight. The Killing Joke, the comic TDK draws most heavily from is a tad more ambiguous on that point.

And regardless of how true it was in its original context, I think it's true of Elan and Tarquin's relationship.

I certainly agree that the comparison is there, and is excellent, but I disagree that Elan is that close. He revealed his involvement with Therkla (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) to Haley. He found the premise of having to kill his father for the sake of a good story to be horrifying, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) which may represent a realization that acting for the sake of a good story is not really a good way to go about.

Tarquin provides a foil for Elan, and shows what he could be were he not bound by his morality. Which is to say, completely awesome, but also completely evil.

[Porthos]

and not what he adds to the group ability-wise, which is to be frank not much.

Well, except for everything that has been listed in the thread. :smallwink:

I will also point out an often underlooked ability of Elan: Lateral Thinking.

Elan is capable of coming up with ideas and solutions that might not occur to other people. Now they don't always work. But they work (or contribute to success) often enough to make him valuable in that regards.

Finally I will point out that as a Bard, his job, combat wise, is support. He either aids the party with Bard Bonuses, helps with secondary healing (thus freeing up Durkon to do other things), or helps tie up other foes while the Big Boys deal with the heavy hitter.

So to expect Elan to be a Heavy Lifter himself seems to me to miss what a Bard is all about. He casts illusions, helps in combat, provides healing, and provides Morale Bonuses. And on top of all that, he helps solve problems that other people might not see an answer to.

When one puts it that way, all I have to ask is: What more do you want? :smallsmile:

[Ted The Bug]

I'd argue that he actually has gotten (slightly) more useful as the story has progressed. Not in huge ways, but once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html) in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0433.html while (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html), he can do something that is, at least, somewhat of a step forward. I agree that I think his maturity level is a little too low considering all of the character development he's had, but he's kind of the heart of the party, and Roy's already gotten in trouble for attempting to abandon him.

[Tazar]

Well, except for everything that has been listed in the thread. :smallwink:

I will also point out an often underlooked ability of Elan: Lateral Thinking.

Elan is capable of coming up with ideas and solutions that might not occur to other people. Now they don't always work. But they work (or contribute to success) often enough to make him valuable in that regards.

Finally I will point out that as a Bard, his job, combat wise, is support. He either aids the party with Bard Bonuses, helps with secondary healing (thus freeing up Durkon to do other things), or helps tie up other foes while the Big Boys deal with the heavy hitter.

So to expect Elan to be a Heavy Lifter himself seems to me to miss what a Bard is all about. He casts illusions, helps in combat, provides healing, and provides Morale Bonuses. And on top of all that, he helps solve problems that other people might not see an answer to.

When one puts it that way, all I have to ask is: What more do you want? :smallsmile:

He can do those things, but he really doesn't use them much; take the joke about him never using his illusions, for example. We rarely see him using support abilities.

I'm not saying he doesn't help out from time to time, but relative to other members, it's a significantly smaller contribution.

[Prospekt]

I prefer to look at it like this- there are times when I've gotten crappy rolls, but I sit back and think that my friends might not mind too much if I'm not the greatest *insert class here* in the world. I view Elan in the same manner. I frankly wouldn't be playing D&D with people who criticize how I'm doing the entire time (or at least I would give them a hard time if they were). To create a realistic setting, you have to accept that there are mediocre people out there, and that they can be a part of the main quest from beginning to end. If that's not convincing enough, he has like an intelligence of 8 at most, and a wisdom score that isn't too fancy either- heck, try rping that kind of character for yourself next time. Just put low scores into Int and Wis, and if you come up with any ideas that are in the least bit clever, you aren't the best rper.

Also. It's just a webcomic. I think there's a character each of us hates in it, but unless they're already dead, I don't think Rich is going to remove them via readers' opinions. He probably knows best, seeing as it's, y'know, his own story being written here. It's like criticizing Lord of the Rings for having Merry and Pippin. I don't think you could convince Tolkien they were bad with your magical time machine, because he's the amazing novelist/storyteller, and you? Are not. Frankly, you've a more likely chance of getting Elan off the webcomic by visiting Rich himself and putting a gun to his head and telling him to remove Elan right then and there.

[Ceaon]

I hate to be using tvtropes as a justification, but I think it serves a point here.
Elan has the party role of The Chick, a difficult role to write and appreciate. The Chick mediates, shows the rest what is good, keeps the rest together, supports them, but does not lead and is not very powerful himself. This can make a Chick look weak and even useless, since this role is only missed when he's gone.
Of course, Elan is not a straight example of The Chick, but he fits. To a lesser extent, Durkon fits this role as well.

Elan's supposed uselessness has been pointed out by others in-comic so many times for the sake of a (good) joke, that it's hard to not see him as useless, even though other evidence may deny this (deny, deny, deny the supposed uselessness!)

Also, I'd say Roy is the Hero, Haley the Lancer, Belkar the Big Guy and Vaarsuvius the Smart Guy.
Damn you, tvtropes.

[Porthos]

He can do those things, but he really doesn't use them much; take the joke about him never using his illusions, for example. We rarely see him using support abilities.

Well, some of the support abilities (like healing and neutralize poison) haven't had much time to be used. But on a more general point, I think he's has been using them more and more. In every battle since the Battle for Azure City, he's used his Support Abilities more than he had previously.

He used illusions to hold off hobgoblins when the the team was at the boat awaiting Haley and Belkar.

He played a Support Combat Role when fighting the Sea Trolls.

He used illusions to combat the orc horde on the island.

I'll give you the final fight with the Devil and Qarr. But even then, his running away to the boats with Therkla ultimately saved Kazumi and Daigo.

He played a Support Combat Role in the bug fight.

And he played a Secondary Healer Role in the bounty hunter fight.

In fact, ever since the Battle for Azure City, I'm hard pressed to find an instance where he didn't play a Support Role during a major fight.

Now, being Elan, he isn't always successful. His illusions went away at the boat when he got distracted. They had to fight the Sea Trolls twice because they didn't know their abilities. And his neutralization of poison on V didn't stop them from losing the fight.

But, and I know we must sound like a broken record here to you, failure is always an option when it comes to every member of Order of the Stick. :smallwink:

[Cerlis]

I hate to be using tvtropes as a justification, but I think it serves a point here.
Elan has the party role of The Chick, a difficult role to write and appreciate. The Chick mediates, shows the rest what is good, keeps the rest together, supports them, but does not lead and is not very powerful himself. This can make a Chick look weak and even useless, since this role is only missed when he's gone.
Of course, Elan is not a straight example of The Chick, but he fits. To a lesser extent, Durkon fits this role as well.

Elan's supposed uselessness has been pointed out by others in-comic so many times for the sake of a (good) joke, that it's hard to not see him as useless, even though other evidence may deny this (deny, deny, deny the supposed uselessness!)

Also, I'd say Roy is the Hero, Haley the Lancer, Belkar the Big Guy and Vaarsuvius the Smart Guy.
Damn you, tvtropes.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0590.html

I think Rich might agree that Elan is indeed the Girl. Or at least Kubota would

[The Succubus]

It's horribly inept because no other character does that, except for Elan; he makes a habit of these sort of things.

The council for the defence would like to enter the following exhibts:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0204.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html

Elan does not have a monopoly on actions that are either stupid or selfish.

[grimbold]

elan is there for comic relief
he makes the strip interesting and funny

[The Pilgrim]

Also, I'd say Roy is the Hero, Haley the Lancer, Belkar the Big Guy and Vaarsuvius the Smart Guy.
Damn you, tvtropes.

Shouldn't Durkon be the Big Guy and Belkar be the Sixth Ranger?

[G-Man Graves]

The council for the defence would like to enter the following exhibts:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0204.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html

Elan does not have a monopoly on actions that are either stupid or selfish.

While yes, Roy was being selfish, Belkar and Durkon were doing things that were perfectly reasonable within their belief systems.

[Yuki Akuma]

Shouldn't Durkon be the Big Guy and Belkar be the Sixth Ranger?

No, Belkar's definitely the Big Guy.

Durkon is another Lancer.

[Swordpriest]

Everybody else is wonderful and Elan is useless and should be tortured to death and replaced with Tarquin, Xykon, Tsukiko, and Redcloak, as well as a resurrected mother black dragon, and Tarquin should be made ruler of the world and everyone should chant happily "there is no good or evil and thank you sir for pointing that out to us" while he roasts them over a slow fire.

Thank you to G-man Graves, Tazar, and BridgeCity for pointing out the error of my ways to me.

Thanks, forums. I hope you all enjoy yourselves. Goodbye.

[The Succubus]

While yes, Roy was being selfish, Belkar and Durkon were doing things that were perfectly reasonable within their belief systems.

So wasting spells on trees, murdering an NPC that was of critical importance to a quest and dragging your party off on a very large detour because you want to bone a paladin are "perfectly reasonable"?

[Shale]

"Within their belief systems," sure. Durkon's entire culture considers trees their ancestral enemy, and Belkar believes very strongly in the importance of wanton slaughter.

[Warren Dew]

"Within their belief systems," sure. Durkon's entire culture considers trees their ancestral enemy, and Belkar believes very strongly in the importance of wanton slaughter.
Which, of course, is why Belkar is more of a liability to the party than Elan is.

[aart lover]

mainly for laughs and conflict. after all, a good story needs conflict. w/out Elan there to screw things up , there would be no conflict.

[Mr. Zolrane]

Everybody else is wonderful and Elan is useless and should be tortured to death and replaced with Tarquin, Xykon, Tsukiko, and Redcloak, as well as a resurrected mother black dragon, and Tarquin should be made ruler of the world and everyone should chant happily "there is no good or evil and thank you sir for pointing that out to us" while he roasts them over a slow fire.

Thank you to G-man Graves, Tazar, and BridgeCity for pointing out the error of my ways to me.

Thanks, forums. I hope you all enjoy yourselves. Goodbye.

Give yourself some Internetz, friend. You've earned them. And yeah, this is getting dizzyingly circular. I've had my two cents, I'm out too.

[Andorax]

Original question: Why is Elan even around?

The Characters still keep Elan around because:
* He is their friend and companion
* Loyalty is sometimes stronger than (or blind to) the best tactical choices
* He has had unexpected (Girard's Illusion) moments of usefulness.

This is no doubt partly due to...

The Players still keep Elan around because:
* Elan's player is part of the gaming group (dating/married to Haley's player?)
* Elan's player is a jokester that lightens the mood and entertains the majority of the players. He, too is fun to be around.
* They've all been gaming together a LONG time.
* The DM obviously knows how to write Elan into the story and give him relevance at appropriate times.

This, in turn ties in with...

The Giant still keeps Elan around because:
* He is one of the main characters in the story
* A sizable majority of the fanbase (sorry some of you aren't part of it) enjoy him as he is.


Now perhaps a better title for this thread would now be "why hasn't Elan shown solid, consistant, unidirectional character growth to fit my vision of who he should be to *deserve* an ongoing role?"

That one's easier...because you're not in charge and the Giant hasn't written him that way.


Deny, Deny, Deny the Crabby Forum Haters.

[Tazar]

Everybody else is wonderful and Elan is useless and should be tortured to death and replaced with Tarquin, Xykon, Tsukiko, and Redcloak, as well as a resurrected mother black dragon, and Tarquin should be made ruler of the world and everyone should chant happily "there is no good or evil and thank you sir for pointing that out to us" while he roasts them over a slow fire.

Thank you to G-man Graves, Tazar, and BridgeCity for pointing out the error of my ways to me.

Thanks, forums. I hope you all enjoy yourselves. Goodbye.

No need to get huffy, I've been nothing but civil to you.

[The Pilgrim]

No, Belkar's definitely the Big Guy.

Durkon is another Lancer.

Durkon is silent, has a good heart, and when it really matters he calls in Thor's Might and becomes literally the Big Guy.

Belkar's role in the Party is basically to generate in-conflict, and has shown to be too cunning (in his own derranged way) to fit as a Big Guy. Also, Roy beating him back to First Edition with one strike doesn't yells "I'm a Big Guy" to me.

But, well, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Durkon is silent, has a good heart, and when it really matters he calls in Thor's Might and becomes literally the Big Guy.
Big heart is not necessary for a Big Guy. In fact, its listing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBigGuy) has 5 classes of Big Guy, and only Classes 2 and 3 really imply good-heartedness. And Class 4 certainly fits Belkar.

That said, the Five Man Band listing in the Order’s page currently lists Belkar as a Big Guy and Durkon as a Medic (which is not really a Five Man Band role in itself… :smalleek:). The Big Guy page itself actually lists both Belkar and Durkon as Big Guys.