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Rihar33
2010-12-29, 01:05 AM
I was having a discussion awhile back with my former DM about how a Lawful Evil Knight (Former town guard) could get along with a paladin relatively well, both like order hate choas neither one will go on a pointless killing spree. My arguement would be just because he's evil doesnt mean he will do evil. and a paladin, while able to see that he is evil wont and/or cant act on it without evil actions. FYI both characters are from the same town the paladin served the church and as mention the knight was a town guard. still got a no go on the knight due to "unforeseen story elements" aka we were destine for a plane of good so no evil at that time lol.

But i was wondering what others thought of it as well.

gbprime
2010-12-29, 01:35 AM
Lawful Evil is the easiest evil to insert into a society, hierarchy, or adventuring party. They don't lash out without reason and they tend to be goal oriented. They tend to be short on empathy and long on "my way or the highway", but they're MADE for organizations, be it running them or serving them. Their motives may be suspect, but a good character could be forced or prone to overlook them if the methods and results are good.

Gamer Girl
2010-12-29, 01:41 AM
This all depends on how you play the alignments.

A lot of people take the stand that paladins are 'robots' and simply walk around and detect evil on everything and kill all evil they find. so a paladin would walk down the street and be like 'hello(detect evil)'', and then suddenly behead someone they find is evil and go on and say hello to the next person(and detect evil).

This somehow fits into the world where Everyone Is Good. So every single person who is not a monster is good(with a couple neutral). A lot like a story book, Disney movie or like LOTR.

This makes it hard to have evil around though...and all plots for good people need evil. For example, the average tax guy is lawful evil..yet could not exist in an all good city...yet they need to for the plot.


I see ANY place like a city a mix of all alignments. An alignment melting pot. Tons of people are evil. The guy who steals from drunk sailors everyday is evil..but no one slaughters him just for that(and he would be arrested if ever caught). The same way a moneylender is evil. And so forth.


So yes a guard could be made up of a mix of good, neutral and evil characters...that more or less got along. At least they would not slaughter each other.

RndmNumGen
2010-12-29, 03:41 AM
First off, paladins are Paragons of Good who just happen to be Lawful. If a LE person doesn't actually do anything Evil because there is no reason to do something Evil, then yeah, they could get along fine. Once the LE person starts doing Evil acts however, then the paladin needs to draw the line, since they are more opposed to evil then they are chaos.

0Megabyte
2010-12-29, 05:09 AM
Lawful evil is that guy who, in a depression, raises rent rates in the slums because it's more expensive for the people to leave than to pay the higher rates, even if it makes it so they can't afford shoes anymore.

Lawful evil is that bureaucrat who looks hard for a reason to disqualify you from a loan, especially a small reason, even if someone more reasonable would let you pass. And enjoys it.

Lawful evil is that cop who interprets even a small gesture of surprised struggle when grabbed as "resisting arrest" and who thus beats the tar out of the suspect and slaps a new charge on him.

Lawful evil is the guy who dumps a person's insurance when they get sick, through any loophole necessary, because it would be expensive to actually pay it.

I doubt a paladin has any recourse to kill any of these guys. Of course, if paladins existed, and started doing so in the real world... I know at least a few people who would rejoice.

Seriously, though, lawful good working with lawful evil is always an interesting thing. I don't suggest lawful good makes exceptions more often, but I'd bet, when the law is good, they are more likely to act in the spirit of the law, and not try to find some excuse to get the result they want out of complicated legal interactions, nor are they the sort to hurt people just because they have an excuse.

Lawful good would probably, at minimum, be troubled by the way the lawful evil person uses the law, both for his own gain, and how his use seems to cause an awful lot more harm than the LG's use of the same laws. At the very least, they'd notice the probable selfish streak.

Rihar33
2010-12-29, 05:30 PM
Lawful good would probably, at minimum, be troubled by the way the lawful evil person uses the law, both for his own gain, and how his use seems to cause an awful lot more harm than the LG's use of the same laws. At the very least, they'd notice the probable selfish streak.


And thats what i told my dm. just not as well said. :smalltongue:

Callista
2010-12-29, 07:05 PM
Very unlikely that they would work together. The paladin would want to part ways with the LE character because they simply don't see eye to eye; everything the paladin really values is something that the LE character is willing to sacrifice to support his long-term plans.

I can see them considering each other worthy, honorable enemies; and I can see them working together if forced to do so for some common goal; but they would part ways as soon as they achieved it.

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 07:16 PM
Fun and profit, you say? The old LE mendicant scheme comes to mind. Create a hospital that takes the sick and uses them to create substitutes for XP in crafting. You're literally profiting off of the suffering of others(that they'd experience anyway unless you wanna covertly drum up business) in order for them to take payment for the services of curing them (or rather, you don't charge anything, instead taking the ambrosia they produce for you). Except you're also turning that suffering into bliss for them, but in an evil way.

Pretty much the most fun and profitable LE idea I've run across so far.

Would definitely be good for confusing most paladins for a while.

Waker
2010-12-29, 08:18 PM
Well, I imagine that other people may disagree with me on this view, but this line got my attention.
My arguement would be just because he's evil doesnt mean he will do evil.
I generally believe that a person is defined by their actions. Aside from those creatures with the Evil subtype, how can one be evil without doing evil deeds? Sitting around and thinking really mean thoughts about other people? Now of course there are varying degrees of evil, but one must actually do something before you move into the evil alignment. In my opinion, your character sounds more like a Lawful Neutral guy who's maybe a bit of a jerk.

Coidzor
2010-12-29, 08:23 PM
I generally believe that a person is defined by their actions. Aside from those creatures with the Evil subtype, how can one be evil without doing evil deeds?

Indeed, one does get the alignment via evil deeds, after all, so that does pose a bit of a monkey wrench for the scenario.

Frozen_Feet
2010-12-29, 09:04 PM
Fun and profit, you say? The old LE mendicant scheme comes to mind. Create a hospital that takes the sick and uses them to create substitutes for XP in crafting. You're literally profiting off of the suffering of others(that they'd experience anyway unless you wanna covertly drum up business) in order for them to take payment for the services of curing them (or rather, you don't charge anything, instead taking the ambrosia they produce for you). Except you're also turning that suffering into bliss for them, but in an evil way.


"November sadness sales! Perfect health and longevity only for your soul! Special gifts for the first 5000! Quick now, before the beds are full and the deal is over!"

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 01:14 PM
Lawful evil is that guy who, in a depression, raises rent rates in the slums because it's more expensive for the people to leave than to pay the higher rates, even if it makes it so they can't afford shoes anymore.

Lawful evil is that bureaucrat who looks hard for a reason to disqualify you from a loan, especially a small reason, even if someone more reasonable would let you pass. And enjoys it.

Lawful evil is that cop who interprets even a small gesture of surprised struggle when grabbed as "resisting arrest" and who thus beats the tar out of the suspect and slaps a new charge on him.

Lawful evil is the guy who dumps a person's insurance when they get sick, through any loophole necessary, because it would be expensive to actually pay it.

This sums it up pretty well.

Rion
2010-12-30, 06:14 PM
Lawful evil is that guy who, in a depression, raises rent rates in the slums because it's more expensive for the people to leave than to pay the higher rates, even if it makes it so they can't afford shoes anymore.

Lawful evil is that bureaucrat who looks hard for a reason to disqualify you from a loan, especially a small reason, even if someone more reasonable would let you pass. And enjoys it.

Lawful evil is that cop who interprets even a small gesture of surprised struggle when grabbed as "resisting arrest" and who thus beats the tar out of the suspect and slaps a new charge on him.

Lawful evil is the guy who dumps a person's insurance when they get sick, through any loophole necessary, because it would be expensive to actually pay it.

I doubt a paladin has any recourse to kill any of these guys. Of course, if paladins existed, and started doing so in the real world... I know at least a few people who would rejoice.

Seriously, though, lawful good working with lawful evil is always an interesting thing. I don't suggest lawful good makes exceptions more often, but I'd bet, when the law is good, they are more likely to act in the spirit of the law, and not try to find some excuse to get the result they want out of complicated legal interactions, nor are they the sort to hurt people just because they have an excuse.

Lawful good would probably, at minimum, be troubled by the way the lawful evil person uses the law, both for his own gain, and how his use seems to cause an awful lot more harm than the LG's use of the same laws. At the very least, they'd notice the probable selfish streak.
Of course that's not the only version of LE, Another version is that of an honourable evil person who keeps his word. I think those could work with paladins.

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 06:22 PM
The honorable LE person who keeps his word needs to be doing evil (or at least, willing to do evil) to somebody though.

Which somebody, may depend on their nature and goals.

Some Evil characters might be indiscriminate- willing to "do evil" to anyone not part of a very select in-group.

Some Evil characters might have a much wider "in-group" - such as "their nation" or even "their species".

And some Evil characters might only target a narrowly defined group for "doing evil to".

It might be people who do acts they object to.
It might be a certain creature type, like goblins.
It might even be something as narrow as "those who prey on the innocent".

Such an evil character might be a positively sympathetic anti-hero- a vigilante who preys only on those a large amount of society might consider "deserving".

What makes them evil, might be their lack of proportion, their cruelty, and so on. They might be willing to do positively vile acts, and consider them justified because "only those who deserve it, suffer when I do these acts".

Frozen_Feet
2010-12-30, 11:53 PM
Example of an "honorable" Lawful Evil character would be a seemingly chivalrous person who directs his destructive impulses towards those he perceives as "lower" - he might never betray his peers and hold to a strict code of honor, but when alone and having nothing important to do, he'll spend his time burning ants with a magnifying glass, pitting dogs and roosters against each other and watching them fight to death, visiting the local brothel while paying the owner a little extra so he won't mind his girls getting roughed up a bit - and hey, if he happens to go wee bit overboard sometime, who cares? They're just filthy whores, right?

He will never show any sort of sympathy or understanding towards criminals - publicly, he might speak against vigilantism, but privately he'll be the first one to say "personally, I'd rather see them all hanged. I hope the judge is reasonable and shows them no mercy". Anyone whose acts fall short of his impeccable standards will be subject to his utmost scorn, no matter what circumstances might have forced their hand - expect if it's himself who stumbles a little, in those cases he's of course perfectly excused.

He's the one who'll be saying "I only followed orders. I have no regrets". In songs and legends, he'll be a great hero - only decades afterwards will anyone dare to question his purity. He never was more than a petty, small-minded bigot, yet there'll be people who'll hold him as a great visionary - after all, the guy had principles and stood behind them. Gotta respect that, eh?

Tyndmyr
2010-12-31, 12:32 AM
He's the one who'll be saying "I only followed orders. I have no regrets". In songs and legends, he'll be a great hero - only decades afterwards will anyone dare to question his purity.

Pfft, the victors write the history scrolls. Easy enough to ensure that they get written well. And he won't be the only one with such a viewpoint.

Besides, you wouldn't be one of those scum who wants criminals to get less punishment, would you? Sounds mighty suspicious.

Chaos rising
2011-01-01, 06:35 AM
generally think of The three evil alignments as such:
LE: Uses the system to get what they want.
NE: Will do whatever helps them personally, using the system if they can.
CE: Will set the system on fire, then kick it in the face while it screams in pain.

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-01, 07:01 AM
I'm on board with the OP and much of the rest in the sense that LE and LG could get along as much as LG and CG can. My only recommendation is not creating a city around the idea of it being LE-incarnate.

FelixG
2011-01-01, 07:27 AM
I am reminded of a class from the unholy warriors third part book, i cant remember exactly what it is as im away from my books but it says that they are knights of law, Law in its purist evil form.

The example they give is if they see a beggar steal a loaf of bread from a stall, they would grab him and preform the most harsh punishment covered under the law, for example if the law provides for death, they grab the theif and cut him apart, if the law says to loose a hand they sever the hand on the spot.

This person is quite evil but nothing really the paladin can punish because he is well within the laws of the land he is in at the moment.

Really what it comes down to is the paladin not wanting to work with the lawful guy while the LE guy has no problem working with the good guy. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

Also


Lawful evil is that guy who, in a depression, raises rent rates in the slums because it's more expensive for the people to leave than to pay the higher rates, even if it makes it so they can't afford shoes anymore.

Lawful evil is that bureaucrat who looks hard for a reason to disqualify you from a loan, especially a small reason, even if someone more reasonable would let you pass. And enjoys it.

Lawful evil is that cop who interprets even a small gesture of surprised struggle when grabbed as "resisting arrest" and who thus beats the tar out of the suspect and slaps a new charge on him.

Lawful evil is the guy who dumps a person's insurance when they get sick, through any loophole necessary, because it would be expensive to actually pay it.

I doubt a paladin has any recourse to kill any of these guys. Of course, if paladins existed, and started doing so in the real world... I know at least a few people who would rejoice.

Seriously, though, lawful good working with lawful evil is always an interesting thing. I don't suggest lawful good makes exceptions more often, but I'd bet, when the law is good, they are more likely to act in the spirit of the law, and not try to find some excuse to get the result they want out of complicated legal interactions, nor are they the sort to hurt people just because they have an excuse.

Lawful good would probably, at minimum, be troubled by the way the lawful evil person uses the law, both for his own gain, and how his use seems to cause an awful lot more harm than the LG's use of the same laws. At the very least, they'd notice the probable selfish streak.

This is really well done, it sums it up nicely

hamishspence
2011-01-01, 07:48 AM
The example they give is if they see a beggar steal a loaf of bread from a stall, they would grab him and preform the most harsh punishment covered under the law, for example if the law provides for death, they grab the theif and cut him apart, if the law says to loose a hand they sever the hand on the spot.

This person is quite evil but nothing really the paladin can punish because he is well within the laws of the land he is in at the moment.

Would work if they are allowed, under the law, to perform on-the-spot punishments- some jurisdictions don't- even criminals caught in the act get a trial.

In the Disney Aladdin movie- on catching the disguised princess stealing, the shopkeeper grabs her and is about to sever her hand as punishment when Aladdin intervenes.

In a setting like that, its possible that people are allowed to exact punishment themselves, or that the local law enforcement may be legally allowed to do so without trial.

The paladin's code demands that they "punish those who harm or threaten the innocent" (whether those who do so, do so legally, or not).

This would raise the question of whether the thief counts as "the innocent" or not-
if the paladin didn't see them commit the crime, but the LE character did, the paladin might be allowed by their code to intervene, on an "innocent till proven guilty" principle.

They might intervene, question the accused thief, then decide whether they count as "the innocent" or not.

Rumpus
2011-01-01, 07:57 AM
Absolutely, a LE and a LG can team up. The LE character just needs a strong enough motivation to not do anything TOO evil in front of the rest of the party. Maybe he's setting somebody up for a long con, maybe he's decided that the party offers him the best odds of survival, or maybe he's decided that he really LIKES the LG characters and is willing to be on his best behavior when they are around. LE characters can have friends, too.

Situations like this are why I houserule that most mortals don't have a detectable alignment.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-01, 08:03 AM
Yes, in the case like above, it'd be appropriate for the Paladin to politely halt the scene for a moment and ask what's going on.

However, if it turns out that the thied is innocent or the punishment excessive enough to count as "Evil", a Paladin might have go around fulfilling the "punish those who harm or threaten the innocent" clause in ways other than acting on the spot - such as petition the local authorities to compensate for unlawful punishment, or chance the offending law completely.

This in an excellent way for a Paladin-like character to create and get involved in political intrigue, by they - and also a great way to cause grey hairs for the DM if all he wanted was a simple dungeon crawl. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2011-01-01, 08:15 AM
However, if it turns out that the thied is innocent or the punishment excessive enough to count as "Evil", a Paladin might have go around fulfilling the "punish those who harm or threaten the innocent" clause in ways other than acting on the spot - such as petition the local authorities to compensate for unlawful punishment, or chance the offending law completely.

An interesting issue might be if the paladin has to deal with an evil character whose punishments are always excessive enough to count as Evil (torture, soul-harming, and so on) but they never harm the innocent.

They are, in effect, "Dexter/The Punisher- only more so"

In this case, the paladin will have to deal with the fact that the other person commits Evil acts, yet their code doesn't demand that they punish Evildoers- only that they punish those who "harm/threaten the innocent".

Such an Evil character might be an interesting ally of circumstance- in games where the paladin is allowed to ally temporarily with Evil characters against a greater threat.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-01, 10:13 AM
aise the question of whether the thief counts as "the innocent" or not-
if the paladin didn't see them commit the crime, but the LE character did, the paladin might be allowed by their code to intervene, on an "innocent till proven guilty" principle.

They might intervene, question the accused thief, then decide whether they count as "the innocent" or not.

A thief isn't innocent. A mistake over if a crime has actually been committed or not, may happen, but this is no different than LG-LG conflicts.


And the "innocent until proven guilty" concept generally isn't well supported by law in the countries where any witnesses are allowed to exact punishment themselves.

FelixG
2011-01-01, 10:43 AM
And the "innocent until proven guilty" concept generally isn't well supported by law in the countries where any witnesses are allowed to exact punishment themselves.

Not to mention it wasnt even around until near the end of the middle ages :smallbiggrin:

Elric VIII
2011-01-01, 10:43 AM
It seems to me the problem here is not LG, it's Paladin. No matter how understanding the Paladin is, his code imposes some measure of rigidity on him.

I often play a LE character in a party of LG and CG characters. I honor my word and do not go behind my party's back, but I am willing to (and somethimes have to be stopped from) executing anyone who would dare to fight against us, even in the face of surrender.

Just an interesting note, I find the LE and CG act the same in certain situations. The CG character will save the princes to gain favor, doind so in a way that might put others at risk because he doesn't consider any repercussions beyond those concerning himself. The LE character will save the princess to gain material wealth or to use her to further his cause without caring who is hurt in the process. Perhaps we're misplaying our alignments, but situations like that have actually risen up between my character and a friend's; it's always intersting to see polar opposite alignments working together.


So to OP, if you intend your character to be one that upholds the law with absolutely no knowledge of the word "mercy" it should be fine. This is basically the way characters like Batman work, he likes to hurt criminals.

Slipperychicken
2011-01-01, 11:45 AM
For non-paladin Good getting along with Evil, no problem: they're just two guys who adventure, and work together to kill stuff. One of them's a bit brutal sometimes, and kind of a ****, but hey: he's on your side.

Also: You can't stereotype people based on alignment. It's getting to the point at which we're taking human beings and tossing their whole personalities, who they are, out the window because two letters on a character sheet says they're EVIL.

LE and LG would probably get along like House and Wilson, for anyone who watches that show...

@OP: For Paladins getting along with Evil characters, it depends on how you interpret this little bit here:

PHB
While she may adventure with characters of any
good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate
with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with
someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may
accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

EDIT: I suppose they *do* work with evil then... I've gotta read more...

hamishspence
2011-01-01, 12:03 PM
@OP: For Paladins getting along with Evil characters, it depends on how you interpret this little bit here:

Defenders of the Faith states that this is "never associate on a continuing basis" - a paladin is allowed to make temporary alliances with evil beings if it's in order to deal with a greater threat- and if the paladin keeps in mind the possibility of redeeming the evil being.

BoED discusses alliances with evil beings- for Exalted characters- and does say that it's not evil in itself. However- the Good character may not turn a blind eye to acts committed by their Evil ally.

So it would be a case of "as long as you don't simply let them commit evil acts while allied, you won't Fall for allying- if the greater threat is real".

Indeed, it's common in D&D novels for paladins to fight alongside, work with, beings they know to be Evil (it even occurs with demons) if they believe it's the only way to accomplish the goal of defeating the greater threat.

In Tymora's Luck (by Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak), the paladin chooses to fight alongside an army of demons and yugoloths led by an evil cleric of Beshaba- because both Tymora and Beshaba have been kidnapped- and they need to find them both.