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View Full Version : doubbling the effects of weapon focus and related feats



awa
2010-12-29, 11:25 AM
so would making weapon focus +2 and weapon specialization +4 ect make them worth while. it still seems a tad weak but i don't think i want to increase it more than that. what do you think.

Glyde
2010-12-29, 11:28 AM
Maybe just make them one-feat investments, rather than throwing on 'improved' versions, same with TWF. Just a thought, but it's how I rule it anyway if someone wants to take those feats.

Mark Hall
2010-12-29, 11:35 AM
The basic problem with them is that they don't scale. They're flat bonuses which provide little incentive to take them, especially as levels climb. Doubling them is a step in the right direction, but I'd prefer to see them scale with some other aspect of the character.

For example, make Weapon Focus +1 at 1st level, and +1 per 3 points of BAB. This means that, with Weapon Focus, a 3/4 BAB character equals a 1/1 BAB character without weapon focus for accuracy (ceteris paribus, of course). Make Weapon Specialization equal to double the Weapon Focus bonus. Make Skill Focus +2, with another +2 per 5 ranks. Make Dodge add your Base Reflex save to your AC.

Scaling feats were sadly overlooked for mundane types in 3.x.

awa
2010-12-29, 11:40 AM
i like that i think i might consider using it like that

ericgrau
2010-12-29, 12:26 PM
Scaling bonuses that stack with everything is a bad idea. It's a flat -X to the roll you need at all levels, it shouldn't scale because it stays equally useful at all levels.

Anything more than +5 beyond normal will start making things auto hits, since full BAB guys already hit 75% of the time anyway. Why even roll at that point? But what you're doing is +2 beyond normal tops which will be a big power boost without breaking the game.

Because getting more hits gets better and better as your damage goes up, weapon focus is already the best core melee feat by a good margin (until you cheese away the AB penalty power attack is mediocre in core for the same reason). But I suppose if you're adding splatbook feats then boosting the core feats would help them keep up. After all once that ubercharger hits 1,000 damage all he needs to do now is hit.

Ernir
2010-12-29, 12:46 PM
Why boost Weapon Focus? If it's too bad to be picked at your table, why don't you just ignore it and take the better feats?

If it were something that carried a particular flavor that would be missed, I'd be more sentimental about it... but Weapon Focus? It's just a crunchy +1 to hit with one weapon! :smalltongue:

awa
2010-12-29, 01:27 PM
part of the reason I want to boost weapon focus is my group has varying degrees of skill and I like to have some options where they don't have to worry about extra stuff like power attacking or tripping they can just take a reliable static boost.

ericgrau
2010-12-29, 01:33 PM
Then I'd gauge the power level / books available of the high power members and change weapon focus accordingly. But among core feats weapon focus is severely underestimated. So if they are very high power then ya doubling the bonuses would work fine or if your version of "high power" is taking power attack with a greatsword and an 18 strength (and not much else) then weapon focus already does what you say and only suffers from being heavily underestimated.

Godskook
2010-12-29, 02:06 PM
Knowledge Devotion provides a +5 to-hit and damage insight bonus. For 1 feat, and investment in skills that the PCs who take Knowledge Devotion would've invested in *ANYWAY*, just maybe a little more now. I suggest using that as a modeling point.

ericgrau
2010-12-29, 03:24 PM
DC 36 for +5 and there are 7 knowledge skills that involve creature types. It's not without heavy cost and limited application. Seems to provide just enough to negate the medium BAB of the classes that can actually use it. Or fighters/barbarians/paladins/rangers can be crazy good at fighting types that fall under the creature types of 1-3 knowledges.

Even then, it is still a splatbook feat and does seem a bit high power. You might as well balance against melee/ranged weapon mastery and give a +2, which is what the OP is giving (actually since those stack with weapon focus with negligible pre-reqs, it's almost like a +3 but whatever). But I know I played a character that grabbed a couple +2's from feats (a mere +4 total) plus normal AB feats and class features like the fighter tree and at 5-10+ above everyone else's attack bonus he was reliably hitting things that they couldn't and doing too much damage for that group. Oops, I misjudged their level of optimization. That's why I'm saying the OP should look at the power level of the high optimization players' feats and adjust accordingly.

EDIT: Oh wait a second, if he does allow optimization as high as ranged/melee weapon mastery, then he might as well tell the noob players who want a high flat bonus to take ranged/melee weapon mastery instead of messing with weapon focus. Duh.

EDIT #2: Pathfinder alpha tried scaling AB & AC bonuses and I only had to look at it for half a second to see that high level characters in those classes would never miss and never be hit. Somebody on their team has no head for numbers at all. Future versions of Pathfinder removed this entirely, I'm guessing because they found out first hand how ridiculous it is.

Tyndmyr
2010-12-29, 03:32 PM
First off, the best thing you can do for these things is to use weapon groups. This negates the annoyance of constantly finding loot that doesn't quite work for you/implausibility of only finding the exact weapons you need.

Second, scaling is good. +1 per attack granted by BaB is fine.

gbprime
2010-12-29, 03:36 PM
Our local house rules treat it a bit differently. Weapon Focus provides EITHER a +1 to hit with a general group of weapons (like swords, bows, polearms, daggers, monk weapons, hammers and maces, etc) OR it provides a +1 to hit with a single weapon type AND Quickdraw with that same weapon. Choose when you take the feat. If you take the feat twice, say once with swords in general and once with longsword, the +1's stack.

Kerrin
2010-12-29, 06:17 PM
First off, the best thing you can do for these things is to use weapon groups. This negates the annoyance of constantly finding loot that doesn't quite work for you/implausibility of only finding the exact weapons you need.

Second, scaling is good. +1 per attack granted by BaB is fine.
Oooh, I rather like that - simple, easy, reasonably effective, and to the point!

JaronK
2010-12-29, 11:05 PM
I always liked making weak feats good for Fighters, since those are theoretically the "feats" class. So Weapon Focus is +1 to hit with the chosen weapon, with an additional +1 to hit for every 4 Fighter levels. Weapon Specialization is +2 to damage, with an additional +1 to damage every three Fighter levels. Dodge is +1 to AC against one opponent, with an additional +1 AC per two Fighter levels.

It's nice because it means Fighters actually do get stronger as they level up... making them just a little bit less linear.

JaronK

Hida Reju
2010-12-30, 01:20 AM
My take on Weapon Focus and Specialization is that the two feats should be combined into one single feat and show up a lot earlier. Also I added in a secondary effect.

Weapon Focus (Prereq Fighter 1)- Gain +1 to hit and +2 damage with one type of weapon chosen when the feat is gained. Also gain +2 Misc bonus vs Disarm/Sunder attempts targeting the chosen weapon.

Greater Weapon focus (Prereq Weapon Focus and Fighter 6)- Improve weapon focus +2 to hit and +4 to damage. Also the bonus vs Disarm and Sunder increases to +4 Misc