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pwykersotz
2010-12-29, 01:26 PM
I've been GM'ing various 3.5e campaigns for about six months now, and my group (all good friends) have gone through a number of different types of villains. From an eccentric wizard bent on immortality to a Mountain Landwyrm with an interest in airships, they've managed to take them all down.

Now I've hit a roadblock. The party makeup is a Fire Mage (homebrew warlock variant on dungeons.wikia), Dragon Shaman, Paladin, and Lurk. There's also a Monk who games on and off. They are all about level 7, and I want them to meet their matches.

Specifically, I created a Warlock, Druid, Dread Necromancer, and Psychic Warrior party, all level 6 and with very few magical items (a couple of minor stat enhancing ones and some basic armor). I want to try to challenge my party tactically with them, but I always come to the same conclusion.

Someone will die.

The best way to tactically take down the PC's is focus firing, and even if my group wins they still lose a member. They've party wiped before and they understand that the world isn't a safe place, but in setting up a fight like this I'm concerned that the loss of a level for resurrection might be a bit hefty of a penalty. Especially since there's the possibility that they'll lose and their gear will be looted. (Still debating that last one.)

Does anyone have any advice for making this a bit more reasonable? I'd like to stay away from the whole "killer gm" label, and the ultimate goal is for the players to have fun.

Siosilvar
2010-12-29, 01:39 PM
You should note that 4 ECL 6 characters is an EL 10 challenge; if your players aren't used to fighting encounters 3 above their CR, someone might well die.

That said, tactics doesn't have to mean focus firing. It can mean splitting the party (and as every good player knows, you do NOT split the party), terrain modification (Druids are excellent at this), hordes of minions (not sure if the DN can raise up a bunch of skeletons, but there's an idea), and so on.

PsyWar powers to look at:
Hustle for that little bit of tactical movement.
Dimension Swap (PsyWar 2): Switch with the squishies when they get closed on.
Dimension Slide (PsyWar 3): Teleport a bit.
Empathetic Feedback, Hostile Empathetic Transfer (PsyWar 3): Both are powers to make you think twice before hitting him.

Volos
2010-12-29, 03:16 PM
You have to concider the situation that the players may or may not be pushed into. Will they be ambushed no matter what? Are they able to get advanced warning of this group's plans through either careful information gathering or use of favors from allied NPCs? Do the NPCs have the ability to spy on the party to discover this sort of information gathering and therefor quite capable of negating any such efforts? All of these factors will change the effective EL of the challenge. You should also ask yourself if you've designed this NPC group to counter or defeat your player's party. If so, then perhaps you should add in some weaknesses or a decent chance to run after the first encounter? This could give your party a better edge while driving home the point that this isn't a fight to take lightly.

pwykersotz
2010-12-29, 03:47 PM
I didn't design them to counter the party specifically, I just made them similar yet different. Warlock vs Fire Mage, Lurk vs Psychic Warrior, etc.

My plan up front is to have this party scope the PC's out. They've been assigned by a main boss of the campaign to kill the PC's off, so first the Druid will summon a bunch of wolves and have them beset the party while everyone stays hidden.

They'll watch their tactics and determine basic info about them. Second day, the Dread Necromancer will do the same thing with skeletons.

There will of course, be the opportunity during this for the PC's to figure out what's going on (defeating the summons will make it obvious that they ARE summons), and find the group preemptively.

The third day, if the PC's haven't found them, they will ambush the party and the fight will commence.

AyeGill
2010-12-29, 03:53 PM
I'd say, instead of focus firing, have each face his "twin" from the beginning. Then depending on how the fight progresses, have them change places accordingly, maybe moving the squshies away from high-damage sources. You can also have two of them gang a player to unconsciousness(not death), so there'll be two against one. Or have the minions (summons and skeletons) keep one or two off to tip the scales a bit while the rest of the bad guys take down a player or two (again, unconsciousness, not death)

Volos
2010-12-29, 04:03 PM
I didn't design them to counter the party specifically, I just made them similar yet different. Warlock vs Fire Mage, Lurk vs Psychic Warrior, etc.

My plan up front is to have this party scope the PC's out. They've been assigned by a main boss of the campaign to kill the PC's off, so first the Druid will summon a bunch of wolves and have them beset the party while everyone stays hidden.

They'll watch their tactics and determine basic info about them. Second day, the Dread Necromancer will do the same thing with skeletons.

There will of course, be the opportunity during this for the PC's to figure out what's going on (defeating the summons will make it obvious that they ARE summons), and find the group preemptively.

The third day, if the PC's haven't found them, they will ambush the party and the fight will commence.

Alright, I can see that you have planned this out well but fairly. Druids are perfect for this sort of spying. They can summon up high numbers of animals which avoid being suspicious while remaining challenging for the party. Then if they are spotted or need to get away quickly all they need to do is use their wild shape to blend into the forest / fly away quickly or cast spells to walk via trees or tangle the party while they withdraw.

Draz74
2010-12-29, 04:49 PM
Have you read any campaign journals? Saph's "Seven Kingdoms" journal, in particular (and to a lesser extent the incredible chronicles of SilverClawShift) taught me that sometimes, the awesomest fights happen when the DM throws challenges at the players that he can't imagine how they're going to beat without dying.

Sometimes someone still dies, but sometimes they don't, and either way the PCs come out better than the DM is honestly expecting. Because the players get creative and come up with some great things.

So my vote is, just have some faith in your players to adapt and be heroic, and don't worry too much about how they'll survive.

Also, I suppose you could throw an item of Revivify at them. A scroll or power stone or something. As a "get out of jail free, once" card.

Runestar
2010-12-29, 08:42 PM
Your encounter may seem like an unbeatable EL10 on paper, but bear in mind that multiple lower-lv npcs tend to be deceptively weaker than they let on, since individually, they can't challenge the party in any meaningful manner. :smallsmile:

Gavinfoxx
2010-12-29, 09:26 PM
Well... How intelligently do you plan on playing these NPC's? Are they optimized in general? The wealth that they have, have they spent it optimally? Are they really used to working together?

Why not go for broke, and plan on them being really really prepared and optimized, but under specific orders to NOT kill them, to incapacitate and capture them, with equipment and planning and tactics and such to do that job well?

pwykersotz
2010-12-30, 11:16 AM
The NPC's are fairly intelligent, each devoted primarily to their own craft, but with a common obligation to the one who sent them out to kill the PC's.

There's a lot of good suggestions here, but perhaps I can clarify a bit.

I want the challenge to be potentially lethal. The game has been building progressively toward this point, and if they can't take this challenge, they certainly can't take the future ones. They absolutely need to prove themselves on this, where they fight equivalently classed, lower geared, yet tactically prepared people.

What I don't want to do is personally choose who will die. I originally set a contingency for myself that whoever was the most instrumental in defeating the skeletons/wolves would be targeted with the first barrage, but that still didn't sit well with me.

I also know that this NPC party has the potential to get completely stomped. It could go either way. The problem is that, doing the math, the NPC's have near mathematical certainty of being able to kill one party member in the first two rounds, and they have enough hp to last at least one round, even if my party works together properly.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid and I should let them impress me, but I feel I'm dipping a bit too much into "GM vs Player" by doing it this way.

AyeGill, so far your suggestion seems pretty good for balancing this...I will think on it. :smallsmile:

Volos
2010-12-30, 01:28 PM
Let us know how it turns out! I am interested to hear how your group handles this kind of challenge.

LansXero
2010-12-30, 01:53 PM
Another way to absolve your conscience from determinining who "should die" is by making them indirectly choose it.

You say you will focus fire someone and its likely he/she will die. Good. Then, throw hints at the players. Weave in the narrative something so they may be on their toes. If they arent, thats not your fault, but you at least tried. Then come up with how will the engagement start. Will the NPC challenge them in open ground? Lay a trap to split them off and pick them one by one? ambush them during sleep? Whichever you choose, try to let them flow naturally into it; if they ambush them at night, whoever was on watch will get nuked, but thats their choice, not yours. If its a trap, whoever triggers it will get nuked, but make it so they have a choice and its not dictated by you; even better, have a few alternatives keyed to likely behaviors from the PCs next session, that way you wont feel guilty thinking "I killed the rogue because I knew if there was suspicion of a trap they would send him ahead"

Gnaritas
2010-12-30, 02:09 PM
I understand you worry about "who will die", but you should not. Characters can die, players should be able to deal with that.

I'd say gang them up on the Paladin (the melee character, probably most able to take a beating) and see what happens. Depending on the character he will fight to the death or try to retreat when he noticed he will not live through it. Either way, his choice, the other players should give it their best shot to give the Paladin a better shot at making it out alive. So in the end the party will determine the result of the battle, not you.

Ernir
2010-12-30, 02:54 PM
I'm going to guess the party is going to wipe the floor with the NPCs. Partly because the party has the level advantage, but mostly because it has 4 brains to your one to strategize with.

pwykersotz
2010-12-30, 03:18 PM
I'm going to guess the party is going to wipe the floor with the NPCs. Partly because the party has the level advantage, but mostly because it has 4 brains to your one to strategize with.

I sure hope so! I want them to win. I just won't be wanting that while I'm playing the NPC's. :smalltongue:

Game is one week from now, so I'll update with further results. Thanks for the input so far, it's been awesome.