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Minion #6
2010-12-30, 03:22 AM
I just recently started playing D&D, and want to play a monk. Well, rather, I should say, want to play a monk-like character - monks themselves, despite what my fellow players seem to think, are... how to put this... crap. You need HEAPS of high stats to get them to work, seems to me. And, from what I could gather, most of their abilities can be duplicated by spells.:smallconfused:

Am I just looking at this the wrong way? And, provided that I'm actually correct, what options are there oustside of the core books?

Goonthegoof
2010-12-30, 03:45 AM
In before a ****storm gets stirred up, this board has very strong opinions on monks.

You are absolutely correct monks are a truly awful class, but a dip (usually 1-2 levels but sometime up to 6) is worthwhile for the bonus feats/evasion/wis to AC.

You basically have two options for a monk-without-being-a-monk, be a swordsage or a monk 2/ardent x with tashalatora.
The first is a monk as it should have been, a swordsage (from the Tome of Battle) is basically the new monk class, can do everything a monk can do and a whole lot that monks can't do. There's an unarmed swordsage variant, or you can just take superior unarmed strike to get decent unarmed progression.

Ducklord
2010-12-30, 03:48 AM
Well, everything can be duplicated by spells, but otherwise you're 100% correct. Are you sure you're really new at this? :smallsmile:

I will probably be ninja'd, but you can play an unarmed swordsage from Tome of Battle. Or a regular swordsage with improved unarmed strike. All the "my fists are magic" feel without all the suck of the monk.

Bang!
2010-12-30, 04:36 AM
Even in Core, One or two levels of Monk splashed into a Cleric, Rogue or Assassin build makes a much better Monk than the Monk class.

Outside Core, there are alternatives in pretty much every mechanical system that work much better than the base Monk class (even Truenaming is able to field a more competent Monk).

Minion #6
2010-12-30, 05:54 AM
Thanks for your responses guys! I'll definitely take a look at this unarmed swordsage. Few questions though.

1) What the heck is an ardent? And where do I find it?
2) Given the emphasis Bang! put on Truenaming, I guess it's... bad? I only have the core stuff, so I dunno about these things.

And yep, I am new, Ducklord. Just very, very thourough. But, really, isn't it obvious...? I don't understand what'd fool you into thinking monk is a great class. Well, from what Goonthegoof said, at least to level 20.

Kuma Kode
2010-12-30, 06:09 AM
It's actually a common newbie thing. Monks are overpowered, sorcerers need to be boosted. Those two ideas are pretty common with new people coming in, it's when you start to analyze them that you realizes the opposite are true. Monks look overpowered because they have a ludicrous number of abilities, but then you start to realize "none of these go together." and "half of this stuff never comes up" and "the barbarian with a greataxe can deal more damage with fewer attacks."

But yeah, unarmed swordsage.

If you don't need the oriental feel, BRC has a nice homebrew Brawler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149668) class.

EDIT: About truenaming... It's a neat idea for a magic system, based around using a creature's "true name" to manipulate it, but because it's based on skill checks it's extremely funky. Truenamers cannot multi-target until level 17ish, and the DC gets higher every time they use their ability. Also, quickening one of their utterances increases the DC by 20. If it fails, it reverts to a normal usage, so there's no reason to not try.

On one end, with just skill ranks and your ability modifier, you struggle to contribute in any meaningful way. On the other end, with optimizating, skill feats, magic items and other such stuff, you can get your skill rank so high the class is ludicrously overpowered.

It's the epitome of broken. It is, in fact, tier-less (if you are aware of the tier system) because it cannot be placed anywhere in the spectrum.

2xMachina
2010-12-30, 06:18 AM
Ardent.... Complete Psionic. A Psionic class that has a kind of limited Full Casting. You take Mantles (something like domains), and you can only learn the powers in them. You know 2 powers +1 power after lvl 1 in ardent.

Truenamer: Tome of Magic I think. Use skill checks to do stuff. Broken in that they can hardly achieve the check without abusing +Skill items.

Minion #6
2010-12-30, 06:23 AM
Sorcerers need to be boosted? Well, I suppose I could see that, but if you chose your spells right, you'd be fine. But yeah, I'm fine with the swordsage, although I've seen that Tome of Battle is a bit of a base breaker. I'll also take a peek at the Tier list. It'd be interesting, if nothing else.

By the way, great avatar, Kuma. Lordgenome all the way!

Greenish
2010-12-30, 08:19 AM
Sorcerers need to be boosted?Not really. He said it's a common misconception.

I could suggest good ol' psywarr (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) tashatalora, actually. Ardent gets more power points and powers known (by one), but psywarr doesn't need mantle-shuffling and custom mantles to pick the best powers.

Also, you don't need to buy/borrow/open/look at Complete Psionic.

Hanuman
2010-12-30, 08:43 AM
I just recently started playing D&D, and want to play a monk. Well, rather, I should say, want to play a monk-like character - monks themselves, despite what my fellow players seem to think, are... how to put this... crap. You need HEAPS of high stats to get them to work, seems to me. And, from what I could gather, most of their abilities can be duplicated by spells.:smallconfused:

Am I just looking at this the wrong way? And, provided that I'm actually correct, what options are there oustside of the core books?
Fun Fact:
New gamers, like new anything else, are highly subject to opinion.

Tips:
Don't play a monk if you are starting high, instead figure out what your character wants to really "feel like" and try and find the most simple solution.

I find most people deep down want to be a core class (despite not being happy unless their character is somehow "special" and "unique" like an art student trying to figure out how to work in strange mediums to pull off the same picture, and a lot of the time if it's a "skillful" class, they want to be a rogue.

Draz74
2010-12-30, 10:06 AM
I could suggest good ol' psywarr (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) tashatalora, actually. Ardent gets more power points and powers known (by one), but psywarr doesn't need mantle-shuffling and custom mantles to pick the best powers.

Also, you don't need to buy/borrow/open/look at Complete Psionic.

I second this. Swordsages are great, but they actually take some skill and/or negotiation with the DM to make decent Monk replacements. If your group is new to D&D, they may not be ready for Tome of Battle yet. (Or maybe it's best to get them started on it early ... I dunno.)

But it may be easier for you to build a Monk 2 / Psychic Warrior 18 with Tashalatora. You can see a summary of Tashalatora (and all of its prerequisites) for free here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5). And the Psychic Warrior is completely spelled out in Greenish's link.

Get the psionic power Inertial Armor -- now you can have a great Armor Class as a Monk.

If you do have easy access to Tome of Battle, take a look at the feat Snap Kick (and Martial Study, for that matter). If you do have easy access to Complete Psionic, take a look at the feat Linked Power. But regardless, you should be able to make a pretty decent monk just by selecting feats and powers from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (available for free online, same site as Greenish's link).

2xMachina
2010-12-30, 10:42 AM
One bonus of Ardent over Psy War is lvl 7+ powers. And Practiced Manifester covering for the Monk dip.

Keld Denar
2010-12-30, 11:35 AM
Yea, but Ardent's don't have natural access to Expansion, a pretty key Tash power. You have to do some Mantle swapping or blow a feat on Expanded Knowledge or Hidden Talent. Most DMs I've played with, even those who are pretty liberal on homebrew and optimization, tend to rather frown on Mantle swapping, simply because it deviates from the printed rules.

Plus, most of the good Gishy powers are in the 1-4 level range anway. Vigor + Share Pain combo is level 1-2, Expansion, Inerial Armor, and Grip of Iron are 1, Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge are 2, Strength of my Enemy is 3, as is Weapon of the Vampire. You get full Concealing Amorphia and Psionic Dim Door at 4, and thats about the pinnacle of what you really need to be an effective psi-gish-monk-thing. I'll grant that some higher level powers like Anticipatory Strike or Temporal Acceleration are pretty nifty, getting them with Ardent leaves a lot of low level holes open.

Plus, most Tash builds, especially those that grapple, tend to be VERY feat intensive. Again, unless you are doing something like Feat Leaching your pet rock (another thing that technically works, but most DMs tend to frown on), having extra feats to blow on Snap Kick, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, Link Power, Practiced Manifester, Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity/Containment, not to mention things like Shape Soulmeld if you are trying to pick up Constrict is similar abilities. Its a LOT of feats. I think it runs about even.

Bang!
2010-12-30, 11:56 AM
Fist of Zuoken, from Expanded Psionics Handbook and the [SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm), is a prestige class with similar results to Talashatora, but from a less obscure source. I only mention this because I've been playing 3rd edition for about a decade and have never even seen the Eberron book where Talashatora is published.

Sacred Fist from Complete Divine advances Monk abilities and divine casting, which makes the Monk's Kung Fu much scarier.

And Truenaming is an alternate magic system that just doesn't work. The Truenamer is often ranked below the Adept and Expert in tier lists and class rankings. But there's even a Truenaming prestige class that outdoes the Monk in terms of "making the Monk not suck" (giving it increased mobility, a few extra move actions, letting it ignore DR and adding a skill-based dispel)

Fouredged Sword
2010-12-30, 12:11 PM
There is also a monk / arcane casting PRC that is good. I am away from book right now, but look into complete arcane and complete adventure for good ideas. Complete adventure has lots of good feats to mix monk and other classes. There are some other feats that do similer things on some of the other complete books.

Ryuk01
2010-12-30, 12:24 PM
There is also a monk / arcane casting PRC that is good.
Are you talking about Enlightened Fist from Complete Arcane, page 34?

Curmudgeon
2010-12-30, 12:27 PM
If you don't want to dig heavily into either spells or psionics, I suggest a 2-level dip into Monk with the Invisible Fist ACF (from Exemplars of Evil on page 21); this lets you become invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds. Then add the Ascetic Rogue feat and lots of Rogue levels. You'll be whipping out the unarmed damage cake with sneak attack as icing on top.

Godskook
2010-12-30, 02:44 PM
What books do you have access to?

Some blind build suggestions(with sources):

Build 1:

Wizard 4/Monk 1/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 5

Sources: Complete Mage, Complete Arcane
Bonus: Book of Exalted Deeds(for greater luminous armor), Champions of Valor(Carmendine monk), Spell Compendium, Races of the Dragon(Greater Mighty Whallop)

Focus on buff spells to improve yourself, maybe buying a few rods of chaining to hit other party members too. If you get any of the bonus material approved, your starting to look fairly good. Carmendine will fix your AC bonus to work of Int, and luminous armor works with abjurant champion's class features. Note: Monks get the handaxe(a martial weapon) proficiency for entry into Abjurant Champion.

Build 2:

Cleric 6/Monk 1/Sacred Fist 10/Full caster 3

Sources: Complete Divine

Not sure if there's ways to make that better, but you're still getting unarmed damage as a monk 11, so you're doing alright.

Build 3&4:

Swordsage 20, with the unarmed variant if you want unarmed strikes.

Unarmed variant Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage +16

The first build focuses on just being a swordsage, and pretending you're a monk. Solid and competent no matter what you do.

The second build trades the capstone for int to damage(with weapon finesse along the way). It uses the unarmed swordsage variant found in the Adapations section of the class. And finally, it grabs the feat shadow blade. You now have Str, Dex, Int and Wis to damage. Have fun!

Sources: Tome of Battle, Complete Warrior(for swashbuckler)

Build 5&6:

Monk 2/Ardent 18

Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18

Congratulations. You're now an Ardent/Psychic Warrior with monk abilities tacked on. Go have fun!

Sources: EXP(SRD too!), Complete Psionics(For ardent), Eberron Campaign Setting(required feat), Secrets of Sarlona(Tashalatora).

Minion #6
2010-12-30, 06:44 PM
@Godskook - My DM has about 20 in PDF form, not sure which ones though.

@Keld - Apologies, but I'm not yet at the stage where I know any of the tricks you mentioned - nevertheless, I'll look it up

@Greenish - Psychic Warrior is one of the few non-core classes I have heard of - my friend is always trying to extol it's virtues; trouble is, he's not incredibly good at expressing what he means. I'll have a look.

@Hanuman - I want a monk-esque character, but as we have a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Factotum, I'll be outshone by a significant amount as a PHB Monk.

From what I've looked at, Unarmed Swordsage is the way to go in this campaign. Thanks again to everyone for your help! :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-12-30, 07:13 PM
Tattoo monk is a decent Prc for monkying.

Godskook
2010-12-30, 07:38 PM
@Godskook - My DM has about 20 in PDF form, not sure which ones though.

Twas why I listed sources, in case you had .pdfs.


From what I've looked at, Unarmed Swordsage is the way to go in this campaign. Thanks again to everyone for your help! :smallbiggrin:

Things to ask your DM about for the unarmed swordsage:

1.He loses light armor proficiency, but technically his AC bonus would still work in light armor. Does your DM agree? If so, get a 0 ACP armor or multiclass to get your proficiency back.

2.Do you count as having swordsage levels for the purpose of things like a monk's belt?(A pure bonus!)

Minion #6
2010-12-30, 07:44 PM
1) Yup, my DM is fine with it working in light armour, so that'll be easy.

2) That one, we're going to have to discuss. I've been told the other guys are okay, so the we aren't going to have a Batman Wizard or Clericzilla or anything. So if so, yay, if not, I've lost nothing.