View Full Version : Charm, what do you notice? [3.5]

2010-12-30, 02:47 PM
Ok, I'm planning on hitting my players with a few doses of psionic charm tonight, and I'm wondering what, if anything, they'd notice, assuming:

1.The psion was careful enough to not be noticed prior to manifesting
2a.They failed their saves
2b.They made their saves

Also, one of my PCs has Moment of the Perfect Mind and they all have action points. Would they be allowed to use these against a save they weren't aware they were making?

2010-12-30, 02:51 PM
If they make their save, they would get the "did something just happen?" reaction. If they fail their save, they notice nothing, and wouldn't think twice about regarding this person they meet later as being totally awesome.

And if the player rolls the save, the player can spend an action point. If the DM rolls the saves in secret, whether the players get to use action points is totally up to the DM.

2010-12-30, 02:51 PM
I'm pretty sure what they notice is up to interpretation, but I've always played with:

If they fail their save, they don't notice anything is odd until after the duration of the spell (or power), at which point they know they were thinking strangely, and can probably identify the reason with a little bit of adventuring experience and common sense.

If they succeed on their save, they know they shrugged off some sort of mental influence, but not exactly what. (Assuming failed spellcraft or whatever is appropriate to identify the spell in the first place.)

Regarding whether they can use moment of perfect mind and power points, yes. Those can be used even while flat-footed/unaware.

2010-12-30, 03:01 PM
Especially yes to MoPM. The maneuver doesn't say you have to be aware of anything, and the whole point of the Diamond Mind school is "Action without Volition." A DM adept would have no problem reacting to a threat before he becomes fully conscious of what's going on.

As to what they'd feel, I'd say it's like the others have said. If they fail, they notice nothing, or at worst, such as if the MoPM fails, they notice a weird feeling and promptly write it off as nothing. If they succeed, then they should be aware that something just tried to invade their mind, though they would have no knowledge of the source unless they found the psion some other way.

2010-12-30, 03:08 PM
Regarding whether they can use moment of perfect mind and power points, yes. Those can be used even while flat-footed/unaware.

Where are you getting this? I started looking it up thanks to your wording, and immediate actions, as a rule, can't be used flatfooted, and I personally can't find rules to the contrary in the ToB.

As for Action Points, anyone know of a clear ruling on that?

Forged Fury
2010-12-30, 03:43 PM
As for Action Points, anyone know of a clear ruling on that?

Action Points would be tough, but doable. You'd pretty much have to tell the players "I'm rolling a D20 for each of you for something that is happening in game." then inform each one what you rolled. Since they have so little information, I would even let them know whether burning an AP would/would not potentially change the success or failure of the roll. If you think they could handle it without metagaming, let them know that it's a Will save.

2010-12-30, 04:30 PM
I asked a very similar question once (right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132583), in fact, fwiw).

The general consensus (based on my recollection):

RAW, maneuvers cannot be used while flatfooted/surprised, so (RAW) a character cannot use one of the save maneuvers. (I do not care for that RAW, myself, and think it a good houserule candidate.)

Play-wise, there's a strong consensus (or maybe it was just the opinion of posters whose opinions I value more) that players should always get to make their own saving rolls, even if the character would not know why.