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Black_Zawisza
2010-12-30, 04:35 PM
In my game, one of my character's goals is to overthrow every oppressive government in the world and replace it with an constitutional elective monarchy. The question is, though, how can one ensure that the rulers remain benevolent after one is dead and can no longer police the system? Is there a mechanical way one could force all future kings to obey a constitution as long as they lived?

Acero
2010-12-30, 04:42 PM
"force all future kings to obey a constitution as long as they lived?"

Mindrape comes to mind...

Thespianus
2010-12-30, 04:43 PM
Is there a mechanical way one could force all future kings to obey a constitution as long as they lived?

The threat of certain violence, in this life or the next.

There is no other way. You set up a huge army or you set up a religion.

Naturally, both of those can be organized in many different ways.

Urpriest
2010-12-30, 04:44 PM
What about a magic trap of Sanctify the Wicked? Build it into a crib or something.

Bang!
2010-12-30, 04:45 PM
Don't die.

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 04:46 PM
Wouldn't work- STW only works on Evil beings, not Neutral ones.

Geas might.

Still, constitutional methods might make more sense, even in a D&D world, than magical ones- magic can be broken or subverted.

peacenlove
2010-12-30, 04:48 PM
In my game, one of my character's goals is to overthrow every oppressive government in the world and replace it with an constitutional elective monarchy. The question is, though, how can one ensure that the rulers remain benevolent after one is dead and can no longer police the system? Is there a mechanical way one could force all future kings to obey a constitution as long as they lived?

In before mindrape-programmed amnesia suggestions:
Mark of justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markofjustice.htm) will force rulers to act according a specific ideal.
Also a lawful good familiar/cohort and/or phylactery of faithfulness (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=1488) tied to the setting's lawful good god with the portfolio of benevolent ruleship will also help.

EDIT: Too late it seems :smallfrown:

Thespianus
2010-12-30, 04:49 PM
Still, constitutional methods might make more sense, even in a D&D world, than magical ones- magic can be broken or subverted.
Last I checked, that goes for constitutions as well. ;)

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 04:50 PM
Also a lawful good familiar/cohort and/or phylactery of faithfulness (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=1488) tied to the setting's lawful good god with the portfolio of benevolent ruleship will also help.

Probably make more sense anyway- if the character wants a benevolent dictator- and they're not hypocritical-

one would expect them to use benevolent methods of keeping future dictators benevolent.


Last I checked, that goes for constitutions as well. ;)

True- main difference is- it may take more work to subvert. Especially if an enormous number of safeguards are put in- all of which need to be broken to corrupt the system.

To prevent a system from becoming corrupt- it may need to be renewed regularly- constantly tested- corrupt elements identified and corruption removed.

"Staying non-corrupt" is an ongoing process that requires continuous work.

"Who watches the watchers"? They watch one another. A lot.

Acero
2010-12-30, 05:38 PM
Idea #2 paladin levels?

Black_Zawisza
2010-12-30, 05:47 PM
Thanks for the ideas, guys!


In before mindrape-programmed amnesia suggestions:
Mark of justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markofjustice.htm) will force rulers to act according a specific ideal.
Also a lawful good familiar/cohort and/or phylactery of faithfulness (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=1488) tied to the setting's lawful good god with the portfolio of benevolent ruleship will also help.

EDIT: Too late it seems :smallfrown:
A familiar/cohort will die eventually, and a MoJ would need to be applied to each future ruler. The method I'm looking for can't require putting faith in anybody to maintain the system after I'm dead. I need to be able to apply the effect myself and have it exist for eons on each individual king.

Seffbasilisk
2010-12-30, 05:54 PM
Sentient Crown. Dedicated purpose: Protect and aid in the benevolent rule of this realm. 1/year Mindrape. 3/day Suggestion. 3/day Mark of Justice. 1/day Sanctify the Wicked. At Will: Detect Evil, Detect Law, Detect Thoughts. Telepathy 120feet Blindsight 60 feet.

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 05:57 PM
Mindrape has the Evil tag though. And StW is a spell that takes a year to have its full effect (for the whole of that year, the victim will be imprisoned in a gem).

Subtler methods may make more sense in this case.

Seffbasilisk
2010-12-30, 06:00 PM
The crown itself would be neutral. It's goal, is that your guiding purpose, this realm, work.

Dr.Epic
2010-12-30, 06:01 PM
Mark of Justice and make sure no one removes it for them.

AslanCross
2010-12-30, 06:03 PM
Mark of Justice and make sure no one removes it for them.

Agreed. Make it part of a ritual performed every so often in public.

This of course, adds intrigue when someone can fake it.

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 06:06 PM
The crown itself would be neutral. It's goal, is that your guiding purpose, this realm, work.

Isn't the whole point, that the realm not only work, but work benevolently? Would a Neutral crown really be able to not only keep the rulers Lawful Good, but keep the realm itself from becoming "functional but corrupt"?

And doesn't it require you, or one of your associates helping you to create it, to be able to cast the spell itself, to install it in a magic item?

Plus, on page 288, the DMG states that alignment of an intelligent magical item is "same as the creator".

Chilingsworth
2010-12-30, 06:29 PM
While Mindrape has the evil descriptor, programed amnesia doesn't. They both do the same thing, as far as I'm able to see.

hamishspence
2010-12-30, 06:38 PM
Biggest differences:

Programmed Amnesia has a 10 minute casting time and a 500gp material component.

Mindrape has a 1 action casting time, and no expensive component.

Mindrape also specifies that you can "leave the target insane" after all changes are done- Programmed Amnesia doesn't.

Black_Zawisza
2010-12-30, 06:45 PM
Sentient Crown. Dedicated purpose: Protect and aid in the benevolent rule of this realm. 1/year Mindrape. 3/day Suggestion. 3/day Mark of Justice. 1/day Sanctify the Wicked. At Will: Detect Evil, Detect Law, Detect Thoughts. Telepathy 120feet Blindsight 60 feet.
I really like this idea, but the king could simply make a visually identical crown and wear it, and the peasants would be none the wiser. This would be near perfect if the Sentient Crown could somehow independently let the public know if it was incapable at any time of exercising its influence over the king.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-30, 06:58 PM
Sentient Crown. Dedicated purpose: Protect and aid in the benevolent rule of this realm. 1/year Mindrape. 3/day Suggestion. 3/day Mark of Justice. 1/day Sanctify the Wicked. At Will: Detect Evil, Detect Law, Detect Thoughts. Telepathy 120feet Blindsight 60 feet.
You need to add Detect Good. The absence of an Evil alignment is not proof of a Good alignment. But Detect Good will foil a Ring of Mind Shielding, or a Mind Blank effect ... or at least detect that such might be in play.

I really like this idea, but the king could simply make a visually identical crown and wear it, and the peasants would be none the wiser. This would be near perfect if the Sentient Crown could somehow independently let the public know if it was incapable at any time of exercising its influence over the king.
Sentient items can activate their own powers. Make it a Ring of Telekinesis, rather than a crown, and use it as the royal seal. It can now move itself around, at will, as well as other objects.

Black_Zawisza
2010-12-30, 07:05 PM
Sentient items can activate their own powers. Make it a Ring of Telekinesis, rather than a crown, and use it as the royal seal. It can now move itself around, at will, as well as other objects.
It wouldn't be able to just leave the castle any time the king was abusing his power. Couldn't he just shove it in a closet or something? What's needed is a method of informing the population that the king is misusing his power and must be replaced.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-30, 07:09 PM
It wouldn't be able to just leave the castle any time the king was abusing his power. Couldn't he just shove it in a closet or something?
It doesn't need a wielder to activate it's own powers. You lock it in a drawer. It uses Telekinesis to open the drawer, picks itself up, heads over to your writing desk, telekinetically gets out some parchment, a pen, and an inkwell, writes up whatever decree it needs to, uses telekinesis to make flint and steel light up a candle, floats the candle to drip the wax onto the parchment, and then uses Telekinesis to move itself to imprint the royal seal on the parchment. It then floats the decree to whoever needs to see it, then heads back to the drawer for safekeeping.

Callista
2010-12-30, 07:12 PM
Give the people a good deal of power; and make it easy for people who don't have power to gain it. What you want is not stability but controlled instability. If you make an extremely stable government, which is extremely hard to change, it will also be extremely hard for it to respond to outside events--war, famine, or just social changes--and, unable to adapt, it will fall. Establish a government that can be changed at need.

I'm assuming here that the people are usually true neutral, right? Well, in that case, their goals will average out to "Keep myself, my family, and my friends happy, healthy, and supplied with what they need." A true neutral population will want very nearly the same thing that a Good-aligned person will want; it's just that the Good-aligned person wants it for everyone. (Neutral and Good get along very well that way.) This is why you establish basic equality from person to person: True neutral people will realize that if everyone gets the same thing, then it's rational to want everyone to get what you want. And this is also why you give everyone some amount of power to change things: If they are all acting out of self-interest, then everyone will try to pull in his own direction, and things will end up somewhere in the middle--a compromise.

Black_Zawisza
2010-12-30, 07:50 PM
It doesn't need a wielder to activate it's own powers. You lock it in a drawer. It uses Telekinesis to open the drawer, picks itself up, heads over to your writing desk, telekinetically gets out some parchment, a pen, and an inkwell, writes up whatever decree it needs to, uses telekinesis to make flint and steel light up a candle, floats the candle to drip the wax onto the parchment, and then uses Telekinesis to move itself to imprint the royal seal on the parchment. It then floats the decree to whoever needs to see it, then heads back to the drawer for safekeeping.
A Ring of Telekinesis has no nonmagical method of movement, right? Antimagic Field. Done.


Give the people a good deal of power; and make it easy for people who don't have power to gain it. What you want is not stability but controlled instability. If you make an extremely stable government, which is extremely hard to change, it will also be extremely hard for it to respond to outside events--war, famine, or just social changes--and, unable to adapt, it will fall. Establish a government that can be changed at need.I'm assuming here that the people are usually true neutral, right? Well, in that case, their goals will average out to "Keep myself, my family, and my friends happy, healthy, and supplied with what they need." A true neutral population will want very nearly the same thing that a Good-aligned person will want; it's just that the Good-aligned person wants it for everyone. (Neutral and Good get along very well that way.) This is why you establish basic equality from person to person: True neutral people will realize that if everyone gets the same thing, then it's rational to want everyone to get what you want. And this is also why you give everyone some amount of power to change things: If they are all acting out of self-interest, then everyone will try to pull in his own direction, and things will end up somewhere in the middle--a compromise.
One should trust an average peasant only slightly more than one does a king. The bolded goals above can be in conflict with what my character considers to be good. A powerful state unchecked by the will of the masses is needed to prevent the peasants from either voting themselves money or taking it by force. The question is, if the government is made up of self-interested creatures, why should we give it ultimate control over our lives? Unfortunately, in the real world, we have no answer to that question. In D&D, we do: rule by a magical item who has no interest but the defense of the rights of sentient creatures.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-30, 08:10 PM
A Ring of Telekinesis has no nonmagical method of movement, right? Antimagic Field. Done. Actually, that curiously doesn't work. Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) specifies "no effect on golems and other constructs" - and the Intelligent Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm) section says "Treat them as constructs".

But even so: You'll need to keep it in a permanent antimagic field. At which point, you'll have better luck with Disjunction, or a set of wire cutters anyway. Nothing's totally foolproof - but you can make things tricky.

peacenlove
2010-12-30, 08:39 PM
Thanks for the ideas, guys!


A familiar/cohort will die eventually, and a MoJ would need to be applied to each future ruler. The method I'm looking for can't require putting faith in anybody to maintain the system after I'm dead. I need to be able to apply the effect myself and have it exist for eons on each individual king.

The draconomicon has Lair Wards, whole caverns permanently enhanced with a magical effect. The official crowning room should be enhanced as such, by the effect of your choosing (for example mark of justice), and only when the effect triggers (in a flashy way) will the king be crowned.
Since they are effectively items they can be made intelligent, thus using the suggestions presented above.

Flickerdart
2010-12-30, 08:46 PM
None of this is a problem if the OP just makes himself immortal.

Alternatively, place a Contingent Gate on each throne with a trigger of something like "if the lord of this country stops being LG, call a Solar to knock some sense into him". Costly to set up, but Solars fix everything. It'll only work once, unfortunately, but if you're also immortal you can go and put it back.

Copacetic
2010-12-30, 08:52 PM
Agreed. Make it part of a ritual performed every so often in public.

This of course, adds intrigue when someone can fake it.

That's what she said.


In all seriousness, I don't think there's a magic bullet to this question. Keep people honest from beyond the grave without acutally returning is possibly impossible, but I think your best bet would be to form a group of paladin-esque advisors very similair to Soon's. Failing that, intelligent magic crown as Seffbasilisk suggested.

peacenlove
2010-12-30, 08:56 PM
None of this is a problem if the OP just makes himself immortal.

Alternatively, place a Contingent Gate on each throne with a trigger of something like "if the lord of this country stops being LG, call a Solar to knock some sense into him". Costly to set up, but Solars fix everything. It'll only work once, unfortunately, but if you're also immortal you can go and put it back.

I am curious to learn how many days of crafting time this would take ...not to mention the alignment detection problems. Also

The method I'm looking for can't require putting faith in anybody to maintain the system after I'm dead. I need to be able to apply the effect myself and have it exist for eons on each individual king.


That's what she said.


In all seriousness, I don't think there's a magic bullet to this question. Keep people honest from beyond the grave without acutally returning is possibly impossible, but I think your best bet would be to form a group of paladin-esque advisors very similair to Soon's. Failing that, intelligent magic crown as Seffbasilisk suggested.
This. or be immortal as flickerdart pointed out.

Flickerdart
2010-12-30, 09:06 PM
No, wait, I got it. Spell Clock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a).

Fhaolan
2010-12-30, 09:16 PM
Sentient items can activate their own powers. Make it a Ring of Telekinesis, rather than a crown, and use it as the royal seal. It can now move itself around, at will, as well as other objects.

At a certain point, wouldn't be just easier to build your 'perfect' monarch as a sentient golem? Or import one from whatever they're calling the Lawful Good outer plane now-a-days?

Jack_Simth
2010-12-30, 09:32 PM
At a certain point, wouldn't be just easier to build your 'perfect' monarch as a sentient golem? Or import one from whatever they're calling the Lawful Good outer plane now-a-days?
Yes and no.

An intelligent Golem, Outsider, or similar, while particularly useful, has a fundamental problem:

It's reasonably obvious, can and will be assassinated in fairly short order.

If the Mark of the King in fact controls the King, then the King can be a commoner, randomly selected by lottery, as he's just a figurehead. Or better yet, someone selected by some strange, bizarre, and presumed-divinely-inspired criteria, who is then secretly controlled by the Mark of the King, it'll last as long as nobody figures it out (as basically anyone who assassinates the King will claim the Mark of the King... which is a trap, and will control the claimant).

Is it foolproof? No, nothing is. Is it fool-resistant? Yes.

TalonDemonKing
2010-12-30, 11:20 PM
Why not just have all kings take levels in Paladin? :smallconfused:
If they fail, they become weaker, and the churches get involved.

Edit: Guh, l2read thread. Acero beat me to my own suggestion.

Serenity
2010-12-31, 03:28 AM
I once had the idea for a country whose every ruler has been just and benevolent...because the succession of Kings have just been the 'front' for the true, undying ruler of the land--the LG intelligent artifact-level magic crown with a monstrous Ego score.

chiasaur11
2010-12-31, 03:36 AM
"Who watches the watchers"? They watch one another. A lot.

I thought it was the head of the Watch and the Duke of Ankh.

As for who watches him? Him. All the time.

Amiel
2010-12-31, 03:59 AM
The adventurers may need to exercise caution in pacifying the oppressive regimes; the road to Hell is paved with the best intentions, and they may find themselves with little traction on the slippery slope to dark and ruinous dismal realities.

Advisory councils and an oversight council of watchers may be an idea to monitor and report abuses of power and the reinvigoration of tyranny.

GodGoblin
2010-12-31, 04:43 AM
Ah but that throws up a whole new heap of problems, how do we stop the council becoming corrupt? But im personally voting for the sentient uber crow idea, and i think giving it mind rape works as its the 'just in case- push in emergency' button.

Maybe make the crown with a massive gem, then use the gem to store yourself with magic jar. When the new king puts on the crown, BOOM! You again :smallbiggrin:

Amiel
2010-12-31, 05:55 AM
Organise a round table a la the Arthurian legend perhaps?
You do need to ensure that the members of the covenant are paladins, or at least those of a somewhat incorruptible nature.

One needs to have a deft and delicate touch in dealing with mind rape; it's a strongly evil spell and strangles free will from the target.

Wings of Peace
2010-12-31, 06:22 AM
The easiest method? Your kingdom is actually a "yo-dawg" pyramid scheme of Thrallherds with Thrallherd Thralls. Your subjects? The Believers. Your Thralls and Believers are all held together by (Ex) abilities so disruption is far from being a major concern for you. Heck, if you want to go into sketchy grounds rule wise you could leave Believers in charge of the various kingdoms you conquer instead of just the Thralls.

jpreem
2010-12-31, 07:09 AM
Mark of justice on a leader . .. with has to follow certain instructions (your choosing what those are) the important bit - one of those instructions is to put an exact copy of this MOJ on the heir.
( self propagating curse/blessing it would be)

Callista
2010-12-31, 11:09 AM
There's no such thing as a perfect government, not even with magic. The best you can do is make a government that, when it goes wrong, can be fixed. Since when governments go wrong, the people suffer, the best solution is to give the people power to act on their distress and change things.

All these magical items and spells and whatnot are just begging for a single loophole to be turned into the sources of a tyrannical dictatorship. A government has to be changeable to avoid this risk.

There's a creature called the Crypt Warden in the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a Deathless creature that spends most of its time inanimate, with its soul on the upper planes; but when someone breaks into whatever it's guarding, it animates with all the skills it had in life. Some variation on that might allow stability--it would allow the current rulers to consult with the past rulers and with people of wisdom and experience, without forcing anyone into eternal servitude. You could go into the tombs of the kings, where the magically preserved bodies of your ancestors could be called on to give advice, and then have their souls return to the afterlife when the conversation was finished.

Randel
2010-12-31, 06:21 PM
I agree with the above comments on how it's impossible to make a perfect society. People and societies change with time (think about how things were like 100 years ago and how they are today) a "benevolent dictator" would have to change with the times to account for that. If you are useing a geas or immortal magic item to work this then eventually circumstances will change to a point where the origional ideal of 'good' no longer applies.

Basically, improvement requires change and perfection is to change often. You're going to need a system that can adapt to changing times. However, you will also have to account for the problem of democracies voting themselves money and stuff.

Also, you are going to have to prevent the Bread and Circuses problem from arising. The Bread and Circuses problem is the one where the ruling elite just hand out stuff to keep the citizens just happy enough to not rebel while the rulers act as corrupt or stupid as they want (in modern terms, think about how much time you spend playing video games, watching TV, or eating junk food as opposed to the time you spend researching about how your own government works, which governent workers are responsible for what problem, and how to replace them with better people).

My suggestion:

Build a partial democracy where much of the governing is performed by local rulers.... and make DARN sure that all the citizens know who's in charge of their district. Allow part of the population to vote but limit it to those who actually know enough about politics to make an informed decision.

Maybe use Detect Evil on voters to keep out malicious votes, give voters the option to either vote for something or they just get a bunch of money from the "keep stupidity out of democracy fund" (like if there are Create Food and Water traps then people can trade in their right to vote for a year for the chance to just get free food for a year... or get money or whatever. The people who pass up the opportunity for free stuff are the ones who actually vote on things to make decisions).

Have a bunch of smaller cities where much of the rules are decided by a few well-known politicians and all their decisions and actions are made public so informed voters know who does what. If somebody doesn't like how things are going then they have things shcan either vote a politician out of office or leave for a different city.

The point is not to have one super-rational ruler controlling everything but to have a lot of rational people with control over their own lives. And those who don't act rationally enough to help the system work are kept out (hopefully using a method that isn't cruel or tyrannical). And finally have things set up so people who don't like the system can leave.


Though if you don't mind removing the 'benevolent' part of benevolent dictator then you can always go with a Vlad the Impaler governement and have one guy and a bunch of stone cold thugs brutally torture and murder any member of the rich or ruling class who is corrupting the system.

Corrupt politicians abusing their power? Strip them of all their assets and dignity and use them as slave labor until they die... at which point they are butchered and used as slave food! Make sure to kill all their relatives as well so that their sons or daughters won't plot revenge on you.

Bandits harassing the working citizens? Have the police find him and impale him with a long wooden spike up his rectum and let him hang out by the roadside for a few days while he dies of dehydration. Once the vultures reduce him to a skeleton then he doubles as a "Banditry will not be tolerated" sign.

Beggers and homeless people slowing down your economy? Have one of the recently deceased noblemens palaces converted into a homeless shelter and have a huge banquet set up for them to enjoy. Have all the hungry, downtrodden and lazy people in the whole kingdom attend to feast on the free food... then leave the building, lock all the doors and windows, and burn the place down and shoot anyone who manages to escape from the flaming wreckage! Then tell everyone in your country to get their lazy butts back to work. If you're feeling generous you could have the 'feasting' thing actually take place for real for a few days... like day 1 is just fine then day 2 is just fine until word spreads througout the land that you really are being nice to the hungry people and everyone attends for real. Then burn the place down once rumors start arising that the tiny black shriveled lump of stone in your chest that glows with a dark light of pure malevolence might actually be some kind of heart-like organ.


A benevolent dictatorship is one where the ruler tries to rule justly on the citizens despite all sorts of logic and reason saying that its impossible.

A Vlad the Impaler dictatorship just focuses on terrorizing and murdering the corrupt members of the ruling class, the wealthy, and drains on society like criminals and beggers. The ruling elite will tend to exploit the citizens for their own benefit and the citizens just don't want to be oppresed. If you just murder the elite who cause trouble for the citizens then your citizens will love you... although rulers of other kingdoms might not like your methods.

So if you're going for a nice system of government then either go for a democracy that ensures that only educated voters are voting or a dictatorship that focues its wrath on the corrupt members of the upper class. No idea how you would ensure a decent Vlad the Impaler for very long... maybe get a properly sociopathic lich or spellcaster who's determined to keep himself alive forever.

Black_Zawisza
2010-12-31, 07:21 PM
If you are useing a geas or immortal magic item to work this then eventually circumstances will change to a point where the origional ideal of 'good' no longer applies.
Good no longer applies? At some point in the far future morality goes poof and suddenly nothing is good, evil, or neutral? Wut?

If I'm misinterpreting you and what you really mean is "the government doing (x) might be generally considered wrong, but if the best interest of the country requires (x), then it must be done", then I disagree with you. Evil is evil, regardless of the end it might serve.

If I'm still misinterpreting you, then I have no idea what you just said. Could you rephrase that? :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-12-31, 09:23 PM
I agree with the above comments on how it's impossible to make a perfect society. People and societies change with time (think about how things were like 100 years ago and how they are today) a "benevolent dictator" would have to change with the times to account for that. If you are useing a geas or immortal magic item to work this then eventually circumstances will change to a point where the origional ideal of 'good' no longer applies.
This is why you use an Intelligent item to pick/control the apparent dictator: They can adapt. While yes, a recurring Geas / Mark of Justice to make sure the king conforms to a fixed set of rules will eventually cause problems (http://www.rhjunior.com/totq/00452.html), an Intelligent Magic Item is *not* required to conform to a fixed set of rules of behavior.

Slipperychicken
2010-12-31, 09:55 PM
This is why you use an Intelligent item to pick/control the apparent dictator

Just make it a ratty-looking witch-hat with a magic mouth. Sorting Hat for kings? Awesome.

@OP: This character may want to become a god and rule the kingdom as a theocracy and/or get a benevolent god to rule it. Some of the best options have already been mentioned (Paladins, Magic Items, Magic, Constitutions, etc.).


You could always brew up some kind of epic spell to force royalty into benevolence, OR make a super-intelligent [insert alignment here] construct to run the kingdom.

Nothing's perfect, but seriously: if the BBEG has the power to kill gods and dispel epic spells, he won't give a flying **** about your kingdom anyway.

grimbold
2011-01-01, 07:31 AM
Idea #2 paladin levels?

knight levels would work just as well and they are also classes often taken by aristocracy so it would fit the setting

Amiel
2011-01-01, 07:37 AM
Was wondering, would this character also partake of rulership?
What happens if this character abuses his or her position?

Pyrite
2011-01-01, 07:51 AM
Good no longer applies? At some point in the far future morality goes poof and suddenly nothing is good, evil, or neutral? Wut?

If I'm misinterpreting you and what you really mean is "the government doing (x) might be generally considered wrong, but if the best interest of the country requires (x), then it must be done", then I disagree with you. Evil is evil, regardless of the end it might serve.

If I'm still misinterpreting you, then I have no idea what you just said. Could you rephrase that? :smalltongue:

Relativism aside, if too strict a control is placed on things then unforeseen problems can arise. A system put in place may be unable to cope easily with, say, encroaching militaristic empires, complex systems of alliances between kingdoms, the rise of a powerful merchant class, or a sudden and massive influx of refugees from a neighboring kingdom. Any of these situations or many like them can lead to significant changes in the nature of social or strategic reality. Even if you try to plan for every contingency, situations will eventually arise that you were unable to plan for.

Ultimately, your best option is to mix several strategies, and to intend to subtly guide the kingdom rather than simply dominate it. First of all, a secret order of Paladins is never a bad thing. The king could be chosen by the use of a magical intelligent throne with some mindreading magic: Every time the king dies, there's a yearlong festival at the capital where aspirants to the throne sit upon it and are judged, at the end of the festival the throne selects the new king. This same throne monitors the king's mind, and acts as his conscience, letting him know when he might be going too far. (if he consistently goes to far, the throne may alert the aforementioned secret order of paladins.)
A few more policies that could generally encourage good:
Free education in exchange for volunteer work helping out the kingdom's poor

Encouragement of people's efforts to improve their communities by the kingdom offering to provide materials for important civic buildings or beautification projects.

A very progressive tax rate, with systems in place to assist new entrepreneurs while penalizing the mass accumulation of wealth.

Construction of temples to caring, understanding good deities (peace, love and healing, that sort) in nearly every city, and establishing an active clergy in each who take it upon themselves to heal the sick and injured and help people through rough patches.

Establishing an organization of magic using wardens to keep powerful wizards in check, keeping them in check with the secret order of paladins.

And finally, becoming incredibly powerful and immortal yourself, allowing you to watch over the whole thing and cut out any parts that grow rotten.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-01, 07:53 AM
I love it how high-level magic is posited as both cure-all solution and counter.

Stop for a moment and answer this question: what is the average level of power and magic available in the setting? Magic is a self-reinforcing construct, with much of high-level magic being focused around and only being necessary, or indeed, even useful when fighting other beings of similrly high power. High-level magic starts to lose relevance if those other things aren't present.

I'm fairly sure what the OP asked can be mechanically achieved by Epic Spellcasting, or achieving Divine Ranks. It can likewise be countered by same means. However, to get any practical answer to the question, it's necessary to know what resources does the Dictator-in-training have, and what resources could his opposition be expected to have.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 10:11 AM
What opponents? A LG Benevolent Dictator wants to keep the dictatorship benevolent and thriving.

If we can create Sentient Items why not make several? Have a Royal Seal of Telekinesis, a crown with Detect Evil, God, Law and Chaos, Programmed Amnesia, Mindrape (just in case), Detect Thoughts, anything else etc. Then have several other Rings that can cast Mark of Justice and Programmed Amnesia. Mark of Justice the king to always wear the Royal Attire (Crown, Rings and Cloak {Cloak is magical but not Intelligent to throw off the trail}). Have them as advisers to the king and MoJ or PA to force him to do the right thing if he turns Chaotic or Evil or refuses to do the right thing. Have a bunch of Clerics or Wizards Planeshift to the afterlife to talk with you and the other kings once in a while and set up an order of Paladins as Royal Guards and last-resort Anti-Corruption Brigade.

Thespianus
2011-01-01, 12:19 PM
All the arguments for sentient items and whatever... Wasn't there some book written about how some halflings set out to destroy a more or less sentient item that corrupted people over the ages, some kind of ring that turned people from doing what was right? ;)

I doubt it all would be much better if the Ring had said "Obey This Constitution At All Cost". The situation would arise when the Ring needed to be destroyed anyway.

EDIT: Also, forcing a constitution upon a country for eternity can't possibly be deemed a Good act.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-01, 12:44 PM
All the arguments for sentient items and whatever... Wasn't there some book written about how some halflings set out to destroy a more or less sentient item that corrupted people over the ages, some kind of ring that turned people from doing what was right? ;)

I doubt it all would be much better if the Ring had said "Obey This Constitution At All Cost". The situation would arise when the Ring needed to be destroyed anyway.

EDIT: Also, forcing a constitution upon a country for eternity can't possibly be deemed a Good act.
You don't have the item use "Enforce this constitution" as it's dedicated purpose. If you make an intelligent item, it inherits your alignment. You make it work by making sure it's Good-aligned, and by making it's dedicated purpose "Make certain this area is ruled in a benevolent manner" and define the country's borders.

Benly
2011-01-01, 01:09 PM
Not to be snarky, but I think the question here addresses quite clearly why good characters have no business founding benevolent dictatorships. :smallwink:

The Mindrape/Programmed Amnesia suggestion is a terrible idea; there is no way to make it sufficiently secure to prevent evil behavior without itself becoming a matter of evil behavior. Do you set the mindrape crown to go off when a king plans to do something bad for the nation? Congratulations, you just mindraped a CG prince who wanted to ease the burden of the peasants. Do you set it to go off when the king has wicked motivations? Congratulations, you set it to go off when a king is improving his country's welfare peacefully because he wants to be remembered as the greatest king ever.

The closest we've had to a practical suggestion is an immortal, trusted, and incorruptible ruler or council. The problem is that over the sufficiently long term no ruler is incorruptible, and even over the shorter term of hundreds of years it leads to stagnation at best.

I guess you could make a lesser artifact Sword In The Stone/Sorting Hat and enchant it with "select an heir to the king who will be the best king for the nation", but then you either have to concern yourself with how those standards work or just handwave it.

Thespianus
2011-01-01, 02:30 PM
You don't have the item use "Enforce this constitution" as it's dedicated purpose. If you make an intelligent item, it inherits your alignment. You make it work by making sure it's Good-aligned, and by making it's dedicated purpose "Make certain this area is ruled in a benevolent manner" and define the country's borders.

So, you need a constitution for the intelligent item, a document that clearly outlines what the word "benevolent" means in all foreseeable situations. For example, it would be troublesome if the Intelligent Item prevents a benevolent ruler from acting benevolently, just because a situation arises that you haven't foreseen when the item was created.

Think of it as Asimovs Robot Laws, but with the "Robot" actually being in charge AND being able to injure people. It's not easy.

Callista
2011-01-01, 02:48 PM
Sentient items are not incorruptible. The "sentient" part of it ensures that. They're essentially people, and they can be swayed to evil just like anyone can.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-01, 06:02 PM
Seems to me that, absent your imortality, any hope of a permenantly benevolent dictatorship is futile. Eventually, your realm will devolve into either a totalitarian regime or an anarchy. All you can do is infulence which is more likely to happen, and to lengthen the time until it happens.

EDIT: Even if you could make a "permanant" paradise, it would die when the universe in which it exists ends. Afterall, everything must come to an end eventually.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-01, 06:30 PM
What opponents? A LG Benevolent Dictator wants to keep the dictatorship benevolent and thriving.


The kind of people who'd think they'd benefit from seizing the system from being benevolent, thriving, or dictatorship, duh! :smalltongue: More broadly, the causes that would threaten to ruin the system - if said causes don't include high-level magicians, even relatively low amount of magic could be enough to make the system last nigh-forever.

Pilum
2011-01-01, 08:04 PM
Ensure that there are multiple (and mildly but politely mutually antagonistic) power bases within the government but which all ultimately gain much more from the status quo than they ever would by having it broken? Don't put real power in the hands of the 'king'. OK, true, s/he may well theoretically have the power to say "That's it, orf with his head!" or "squeeze/liberate the peasants!" but if there are sufficient hurdles, hoops and general bureaucratic bloody-mindedness to negotiate before said wishes are actually performed, that power can be effectively nullified.

In short, set up a perfectly normal Civil Service. If you could do with hints, try watching Yes Minister/Prime Minister :smallwink: I never really saw West Wing so I hesitate to recommend that; perhaps others could advise?

Yahzi
2011-01-01, 08:10 PM
I need to be able to apply the effect myself and have it exist for eons on each individual king.

What an awe-inspiring campaign idea. For centuries the land has been ruled by an archaic, unchanging set of laws that are now so out of date they are oppressive and destructive, and the PCs have to destroy the "good" curse.

Callista
2011-01-01, 08:27 PM
What if you actually planned for the downfall or your dictatorship?

Okay, sounds weird; but if LE Tarquin can do it, then why not his LG counterpart?

Let's say your dictatorship starts to crumble and people start to suffer. If you've actually planned for a transfer of power, then you may be able to plan for power to be transferred to somebody who will be the same LG, responsible, benevolent kind of leader you are.

What if you actually plan for different groups to come into power? If you can get the country swapping hands between fairly benevolent groups who alternately come into power and decline in power, then you can bleed off the instability and channel it into fairly harmless bickering between groups who generally find it beneficial to keep everyone happy. (Again, you want the common people to have power so that the rulers have to please them in order to stay in power.)

These would be political takeovers, of course, not violent military ones. War isn't something that a LG ruler will want unless it's absolutely necessary; and in this case it isn't.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-01, 08:35 PM
They have a name for that Callista. It's Democracy.

Callista
2011-01-01, 11:10 PM
Yes, but in a pseudo-medieval world, you'd have to invent democracy... and just like inventing gunpowder, you can't do that without explaining how your character, in-character, thought of the idea.

Roderick_BR
2011-01-02, 12:30 AM
Last I checked, that goes for constitutions as well. ;)
The difference is that, by being mundane, it gets checked on more often, than magical effects that most people just take for granted.

Then again, many wars were cause for diplomatic incidents that threw their constitution through the nearest window.

Maybe have an elder concil, with representatives of each of a group of powerful nations, to watch over all the other countries. Their objective is not to control them, just to watch for formatin of dictators and to try and prevent wars through diplomatic channels. A whole campaing could be made about by having the PCs being hired to work as agents for that concil, like some sort of covert ops.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-02, 12:32 AM
Yes, but in a pseudo-medieval world, you'd have to invent democracy... and just like inventing gunpowder, you can't do that without explaining how your character, in-character, thought of the idea.

The Communes used a form of Republic from early in medieval times. There isn't any reason that they wouldn't have it.

Callista
2011-01-02, 02:48 AM
Hmm... I suppose they might. Anyway, a reasonably high-Wisdom character would think of it on his own; the concept of voting on things is age-old, and applying it to government isn't too big a leap.

TheWhisper
2011-01-02, 03:33 AM
In my game, one of my character's goals is to overthrow every oppressive government in the world ... Is there a mechanical way one could force all future kings to obey a constitution as long as they lived?

In doing so, your character effectively becomes the oppressive government he wishes to remove.

Of course, it would be quite fun to play a character who didn't realize this, and went off on lots of rants about how everyone needs to be forced to comply with his plan to end oppression.

Frozen_Feet
2011-01-02, 06:32 AM
The difference is that, by being mundane, it gets checked on more often, than magical effects that most people just take for granted. can't affect in the first place.


Fixed that for you.

Seriously, unless the setting is very high-magic, using powerful magical items to support the dynasty will effectively install a Magocracy, or prevent "ordinary people" (potentially even the future rulers!) from swaying things this way or that.

Again, define the setting. If you take one moment to actually establish the goal post, you can stop fighting against moving ones and move from Theoretical Optimization to Practical Optimization.